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  #51  
Old Dec 15, 2018, 10:10 PM
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^ Maybe so but I honestly use that phrase all the time in every day convos. It isn't meant in any bad way... I just know based on things I've read, it would get people in an upset and trying to convince me to report etc. I don't read too much into phrases people use online. Everyone has their own way of talking and such. It doesn't always mean the same to everyone.

I'm sorry you had a painful end.... hopefully you can make peace with it or if you ever chose to, go back to them as a T.
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  #52  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 12:16 AM
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I think therapists and clients can certainly have successful relationships post termination, but those probably don't get discussed much. Things usually become public when someone makes a report, and that only happens when the relationship ends badly. There is probably a high risk of these relationships ending badly, which is why the profession has chosen to impose limits on what professionals can and can't engage in.

It's true that, in general, there is a power differential in the therapy relationship. But power differentials exist in any relationship where there's a difference in feelings. Whoever likes/loves/needs the other person more has less power. This happens in romantic relationships as well as friendships. But between two people, the power dynamics can shift over time. For me, I tend to fall in love quickly and crazily, whereas the men I fell in love with tended to take longer to develop deep feelings for me. Usually by the time they fell in love with me I was falling out of love with them. So in the beginning of a relationship, they tended to have all the power, whereas in the end I would have all the power. Power differentials are quite common in various relationships, and I don't think it's necessarily fatal to the relationship although I don't think it's ideal either.

I've never wanted to be friends with my therapist. I actually can't imagine being friends with him, partly because he's a lot older than me and we always had a parent-teenager dynamic and partly because we didn't really have much in common other than the fact that we're both well educated. He was cultured. He liked art and music. I tend to be somewhat low class in my interests, preferring drunken dance parties, cards against humanity, horror movies, and electronica to art shows and classical music. So I really just can't even imagine a friendship.

But I think people who are closer in age and had common interests probably could be friends. There is a high risk of things going wrong, but the risk isn't 100%. I think it could work in some cases. Waiting for a period of time is probably a good idea though.
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  #53  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 03:27 AM
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Also I do understand the reasoning why it is often not a good idea or even a possibility. A T is a professional after all and the goal of the relationship is different. But to say it should never happen or that it is always wrong is an extremely rigid way of thinking and a bit far from real human experience.
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  #54  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 06:11 AM
JaneTennison1 JaneTennison1 is offline
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I think it's possible but I also think I wouldn't pin my hopes on it. I think sometimes people just say things so they dont out right reject you and in 2 years he may think differently. I'm sorry you are going through this.
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  #55  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 06:51 AM
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Him not acting like a T but more than a paid friend to have mostly fun with when you were in therapy does make it somewhat suspicious that suddenly he imposes a strick 2-year-rule. I try not to comment negatively on people's T's that much, but now I almost have to
  #56  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by elisewin View Post
suddenly he imposes a strick 2-year-rule. (
Not quite. This topic has come up with us a few times before. However he always had different answers. One time he said it's never ok, one time he said 8 years. Each time, I came back with info I found online saying otherwise. It upset him and ended up with ruptures for us.

This time, I had a direct email response from the license place he is with, after he read that,he went with the "best practice" part of it BUT acknowledged it isn't a law or rule.... but he would feel more comfortable and less anxious with the 2 year and says he always does at least 2 years with clients.

I know that he has a lot of anxiety and paranoia about "Getting in legal trouble" --he had another legal issue once that he told me about and I could just sense the change in him when he talked about it and he would tell me updates on it constantly, when it was over, he was like "I am so relieved"

Once he out right admitted to me that something he did with me, had his boss found out, would "get my license at least suspended" so he was aware of the "possible" trouble.
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  #57  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 08:22 AM
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I have a different take on the 2 year standard--it seems to serve as more of a deterrence against going around ethics. If not for the 2 year standard, the T and client could immediately end the therapy relationship to begin a romantic relationship. Too easy to act on...In effect, the 2 year wait prevents a loop hole from being taken advantage of.

I'm not sure if the 2 year standard is universal. I kept in touch with my former long term T on a casual friendship basis after our therapy ended. It was not a deep friendship. I also had intense transference with this T and had/have unresolved issues. However, I don't think people with trauma histories have to be completely resolved to engage in a healthy relationship with another person. As long as there's some self awareness, it can work just fine, as it does in my case.

Your T seems to have many issues (telling a client about license problems is an example). I don't say this in a judgmental way, but in a sense that I'd be careful if carrying on with a relationship with him even if 2 years from now.
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  #58  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by JaneTennison1 View Post
I think it's possible but I also think I wouldn't pin my hopes on it. I think sometimes people just say things so they dont out right reject you and in 2 years he may think differently. I'm sorry you are going through this.
Hope is sometimes all people have to get them through the day. There are days that are so bad, if I had no hope for anything, I'd never get out of bed.

That being said, I'm well aware that things can change in that time, I've said in a few of my replies here. None of us know what will happen then.

He could have just said "Well you are allowed to reach out in 2 years" and left it at that if he wanted to be nice but it went beyond that. Many comments, some not even prompted about plans or things for the future. Again, time can change but who knows? I could even run into him sometime before then, not likely but I never know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaineD View Post
I think therapists and clients can certainly have successful relationships post termination, but those probably don't get discussed much. Things usually become public when someone makes a report, and that only happens when the relationship ends badly. There is probably a high risk of these relationships ending badly, which is why the profession has chosen to impose limits on what professionals can and can't engage in.

It's true that, in general, there is a power differential in the therapy relationship. But power differentials exist in any relationship where there's a difference in feelings. Whoever likes/loves/needs the other person more has less power. This happens in romantic relationships as well as friendships. But between two people, the power dynamics can shift over time. For me, I tend to fall in love quickly and crazily, whereas the men I fell in love with tended to take longer to develop deep feelings for me. Usually by the time they fell in love with me I was falling out of love with them. So in the beginning of a relationship, they tended to have all the power, whereas in the end I would have all the power. Power differentials are quite common in various relationships, and I don't think it's necessarily fatal to the relationship although I don't think it's ideal either.

I've never wanted to be friends with my therapist. I actually can't imagine being friends with him, partly because he's a lot older than me and we always had a parent-teenager dynamic and partly because we didn't really have much in common other than the fact that we're both well educated. He was cultured. He liked art and music. I tend to be somewhat low class in my interests, preferring drunken dance parties, cards against humanity, horror movies, and electronica to art shows and classical music. So I really just can't even imagine a friendship.

But I think people who are closer in age and had common interests probably could be friends. There is a high risk of things going wrong, but the risk isn't 100%. I think it could work in some cases. Waiting for a period of time is probably a good idea though.
Really like this reply, thanks!
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  #59  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by octoberful View Post
I have a different take on the 2 year standard--it seems to serve as more of a deterrence against going around ethics. If not for the 2 year standard, the T and client could immediately end the therapy relationship to begin a romantic relationship. Too easy to act on...In effect, the 2 year wait prevents a loop hole from being taken advantage of.

I'm not sure if the 2 year standard is universal. I kept in touch with my former long term T on a casual friendship basis after our therapy ended. It was not a deep friendship. I also had intense transference with this T and had/have unresolved issues. However, I don't think people with trauma histories have to be completely resolved to engage in a healthy relationship with another person. As long as there's some self awareness, it can work just fine, as it does in my case.

Your T seems to have many issues (telling a client about license problems is an example). I don't say this in a judgmental way, but in a sense that I'd be careful if carrying on with a relationship with him even if 2 years from now.
He does have issues but he is human, we all do. I would not expect him to be issue free. I also know he is leaving the profession because he knows he isn't good at it anymore, and he has a lot of issues to work out, in his own therapy. Time can change, he could grow a lot, and so could I? Who knows? I would not let the fact that someone has many issues deter me from contacting them or even being friends, I would have a small crop of people to choose from otherwise

Yes, though it makes sense, in your case, did you wait the 2 years before the casual contact? I at least take SOME comfort in knowing he "liked" my dogs Facebook page and told me he will log in more regularly. I even watched him like the page. It will make me happy to know he can at least be aware when my dog eventually passes.
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  #60  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 08:57 AM
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No, we didn't wait 2 years as it was unnecessary.

Not trying to deter anyone from being friends with someone who has issues, just noting being cautious crossedy mind.
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  #61  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 08:59 AM
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No, we didn't wait 2 years as it was unnecessary.

Not trying to deter anyone from being friends with someone who has issues, just noting being cautious crossedy mind.
I think it's unnecessary too but it is what it is. No I get it, caution is always good. I use caution with everyone in my life. t was really the first person I ever let myself feel close to.... and I hated it. It's made this all so much harder.
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  #62  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 09:14 AM
Anne2.0 Anne2.0 is offline
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I have 2 parts to this post.

1-- Can anyone (KINDLY) explain the point of two years of no contact? Especially since, at least in my area, it is not against the law and there is no rules on it specifically, even my T acknowledged it. He says it is "best practice" though so he does it. Also, in my case, he is no longer doing therapy, so it really seems odd.

***
Again, I am not wanting judgemental or rude replies, just kind or helpful. I really need to try and make sense of this because I'm feeling so low and SO regretful, of things I didn't say or ask and now I can't.... because of who I am.
Probably because of my legal training, I look at rules in a different way than others do. The first thing I do is start with the actual text of the rules. You'd be surprised how many people, including smart and educated folks, have never actually looked at the rules or the "law", but simply claim the law or rules say X. Many times this is just not the case. Even lawyers do it, although usually it's not ignorance but strategy.

For an LFMT in your state, you'd have to look up the ethics rules in the state board. It's likely they adopt the rules that the National Association for Marriage and Family Therapists, which are available here:

Code of Ethics

I don't see any rule that claims a therapist must wait two years before having nonsexual contact with a former client. Sexual relationships are explicitly prohibited and there is language in another rule about multiple relationships and avoiding exploitation, but I don't think those apply to former clients, just current ones.

The language in other ethics codes is different, and I'm bringing this up from memory, but some professions do have a time limit on "social relationships", but many have widely interpreted that to mean "sexual" relationships but the code writers were too delicate to explicitly say so. And as at least one other person has said, there is "contact" that is social or friendly and then there are social relationships or friendships. None of the language or the interpretations of the ethics rules are set in much clarity. So even the text of the rules can be interpreted differently and I guess I haven't heard much about therapists being called up to the board because they had friendships with a client after therapy.

But I think you already know because he told you that there is no specific rule but a "best practice." Again, I invite you to do your own web search to confirm this, but I believe there isn't much discussion about friendships post therapy (particularly when the therapist can no longer see a client, which is different than the issue of a client quitting because they want to skip to a friendship instead, which implicates the therapy). I think most of the ethics issues discussed revolve around sexual relationships or other potentially exploitation (e.g. going into a business together or otherwise taking the client's money). So I think it's b.s. that he is truly following the "law" or the best practice, and merely using it as an excuse to justify doing what he wants. If I were cross examining him I would want to get him to admit this is not about a "best practice" but is his decision and his choice.

The question is why, though, which is something I can't answer. Only he can. I don't think it's because he never cared about you and doesn't want you in his life in the future. I could speculate about all kinds of things, including maybe he thinks it is best for you for whatever reason or maybe he's afraid of his feelings for you or maybe he just needs a clean break from his former workplace which sounds like it was pretty awful. But whatever it is, I'm pretty sure it's about him, whether he's trying to protect you in some way or make it easier on himself. Maybe he thinks his presence in your life is negative, a.k.a. Scott Peck (I may have this wrong), if you love something let it go.

I think he's not being totally honest with you, although of course it's possible he really does believe in the "best practices." Maybe he doesn't even know what he's doing or why, but this seems like a clear bright line that is working for him right now.
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  #63  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 09:24 AM
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Anne

I appreciate all that. The "best practice" thing actually came from an email I got directly from the license place. Reached out and got the answer myself. I showed it too him and that's when he used that term, otherwise he was using "statute"-- but the email said "it is best practice" for health professionals to not engage in any non therapy relationship, no matter how long has passed. It also said there is no rule or law forbidding it. It did say at the end that if a complaint were filed, they would investigate it normally.

So... in a sense, he is kinda being generous with the 2 years, because the email suggested never. I think he's protecting himself if anything.

The other thing is previously I've asked if I bumped into him somewhere, would he talk to me? He's only said, that he can't say anything unless I do but then it can only be brief hi and how are you.

However, this time, when I asked that very thing, he said "Absolutely I would. It could be a bit weird for you depending on who I'd be with but yes I would chat with you"

Then he also joked about hanging out in my city more often. He has told me NAMES of places in the area he lives that he goes to often. So, idk... plus he also has always said no social media connections ever. Yet, he logged into Facebook during session and showed me he liked my dog's page so he can "get some updates through there"

So... idk. It's very odd. he was so different the last few sessions, almost like happiness and relief that he was leaving. He was happier and smiley. Normally those topics instantly made him pissy with me. So maybe there is some hope on his end. Who knows....
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  #64  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 09:43 AM
Anne2.0 Anne2.0 is offline
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Originally Posted by DP_2017 View Post
Anne

I appreciate all that. The "best practice" thing actually came from an email I got directly from the license place. Reached out and got the answer myself. I showed it too him and that's when he used that term, otherwise he was using "statute"-- but the email said "it is best practice" for health professionals to not engage in any non therapy relationship, no matter how long has passed. It also said there is no rule or law forbidding it. It did say at the end that if a complaint were filed, they would investigate it normally.
Again, my legal perspective would say it is the "best practice" idea of the person who works for/sits on the licensing board at this point in time who may have thought it unusual for a client to be asking this question. If someone else had answered the email or other people were sitting on the board, the answer would be different. The reason why anyone can say "best practice" is because there is much disagreement among the field-- otherwise this best practice would be codified in the actual ethics rules or statute (if he's talking about the professional rules as incorporated into the state licensing requirements). Such a large landscape between the actual law of "no sexual relationships" and what is being interpreted as "best practices." And sometimes best practices mean what you should do to avoid being sued, and perhaps that's another of his motivations. I guess if I were advising a professional I would encourage him to follow the best practices of his profession, and I'd want him to err on the side of safety. For sure I feel like avoiding litigation or CYA is often a powerful motivator for people, professional or not.
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  #65  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 09:52 AM
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Waiting 2 years minimizes the appearance of quitting therapy merely to engage in a personal relationship. Less likely that a T can be accused of ending therapy to exploit or be inappropriate if years have passed.
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  #66  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 09:56 AM
Anne2.0 Anne2.0 is offline
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Originally Posted by Xynesthesia View Post

I have never engaged in friendship or romance with ex-Ts but did quite a few times with people I first met in a professional context, e.g. as teacher and other mentors (that scenario also has clear roles and power differential). They all ended up really interesting, mostly positive, mutually respectful and constructive relationships; they did not last forever but I was never one expecting relationships to last forever and I tend to move on myself. The one I really regret was when I engaged in a complex personal relationship with a student as a mentor originally - that was during a time I was very messed up myself and it's also a scenario that does not tend to be appealing to me normally beyond transient fantasies that are mostly pleasant. It did not lead to any disaster or serious hurt but was very uncomfortable for a while after everything ended in a series of ugly conflicts coming from both of us' issues. There is no way on Earth I would ever do it again with a trainee. So, again, I think the outcomes is determined by a combination of people involved and the larger context. I would not dare to predict such outcomes to anyone other than myself.
I have not had a relationship with a former T and don't expect to have one with my current T. I have continued a relationship with my Ph.D. advisor since I graduated 25 years ago, and his wife, so maybe it has lasted "forever." We now live in the same community and I see them frequently, sometimes on purpose. I love them very much as people and the power dynamic has long since disappeared. I share the same kind of mistake with a former mentee early in my career and have not made that mistake again, although I do have friendly relationships with many and do the best I can to help them in their careers.

The idea that my T holds some authority over me now even when I am a client is laughable to me. I am not saying I am immune to exploitation by people or possibly even him, but just that it's not the kind of relationship I have with him. I could see having a post therapy relationship with him depending on the circumstances and I very much agree with you that it's possible for a relationship with a former T to work out just fine. The fact that others have been exploited by current or former therapists is a cautionary tale for all of us, but not a reason to avoid a relationship if you think it will work for you.
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  #67  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by octoberful View Post
Waiting 2 years minimizes the appearance of quitting therapy merely to engage in a personal relationship. Less likely that a T can be accused of ending therapy to exploit or be inappropriate if years have passed.
That makes sense, thanks
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  #68  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Anne2.0 View Post
The fact that others have been exploited by current or former therapists is a cautionary tale for all of us, but not a reason to avoid a relationship if you think it will work for you.
100% This.

We can't all expect that everyone will have the same outcomes in situations as we do.
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  #69  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 11:06 AM
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100% This.

We can't all expect that everyone will have the same outcomes in situations as we do.
well I mean... you asked for it to be explained. so people explained. no one's telling you what or what not to do
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  #70  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 11:08 AM
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I agree.

i was just agreeing with her comment
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  #71  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 05:49 PM
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LT

I get that, except, in my case, he literally DID share all kinds of personal stuff with me, AND my friend, who he also was chummy with. She even said "I know more about your therapist than I do the people I work with and I've worked here for 4 years"

The game we played on the final day, people would LOSE THEIR MINDS if they knew a therapist did that with a client, especially because it wasn't our first time playing it.

90% of the time we just talked about casual stuff or laughed and screwed around. It already felt like more of a friendship than anything. I even told him that....
For me. I feel like I lost a good friend, not "a therapist" and I out right told him, I've only ever seen you as (INSERT NAME) the man I've gotten to know, not as a therapist.
The one thing here is you paid for his time. Imagine paying a friend to be friends?

Playing games that would make people on PC LOSE THEIR MINDS, and your T quitting the field and you not seeing him any more seem inextricably linked together.

I am sorry he didn't offer something of himself that was long-lasting and that he won't be there next week and the week after, until it was your choice to be done with therapy.
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  #72  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 06:03 PM
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Yes, there is something immature and quite unnerving about the apparent boast of this mysteriously mind-blowing game. It feels like a competition - ironic since those of us who have had abusively intimate and sexually relationships with professionals (as opposed to those who stupidly fantasise about it) would not be in the least bit surprised about how unethical therapy descends into juvenile nonsense.
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  #73  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 06:52 PM
JaneTennison1 JaneTennison1 is offline
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If he wasnt ethical in his role as a t then I wonder what kind of friend he would make?
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  #74  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JaneTennison1 View Post
If he wasnt ethical in his role as a t then I wonder what kind of friend he would make?
Probably just fine one. As its constantly pointed out. T and friends are not the same. Also you have no idea what good friend is to me.

And i think contact is contact. Pretty sure i said if anything beyond was meant to happen it would otherwise in 2 yrs i wont care. Anyway in the end its up to him and i, whatx I'f anything happens then
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  #75  
Old Dec 16, 2018, 09:57 PM
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So... you said your mom is a narc? Its ironic that she voiced an opinion on the ts unavailability, when she probably weaned you on it. Mine surely did. So many of the things you say, are like straight from my journals and sessions and talks with people, defending my relationships.
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