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#51
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^ Maybe so but I honestly use that phrase all the time in every day convos. It isn't meant in any bad way... I just know based on things I've read, it would get people in an upset and trying to convince me to report etc. I don't read too much into phrases people use online. Everyone has their own way of talking and such. It doesn't always mean the same to everyone.
I'm sorry you had a painful end.... hopefully you can make peace with it or if you ever chose to, go back to them as a T.
__________________
Grief is the price you pay for love. |
#52
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I think therapists and clients can certainly have successful relationships post termination, but those probably don't get discussed much. Things usually become public when someone makes a report, and that only happens when the relationship ends badly. There is probably a high risk of these relationships ending badly, which is why the profession has chosen to impose limits on what professionals can and can't engage in.
It's true that, in general, there is a power differential in the therapy relationship. But power differentials exist in any relationship where there's a difference in feelings. Whoever likes/loves/needs the other person more has less power. This happens in romantic relationships as well as friendships. But between two people, the power dynamics can shift over time. For me, I tend to fall in love quickly and crazily, whereas the men I fell in love with tended to take longer to develop deep feelings for me. Usually by the time they fell in love with me I was falling out of love with them. So in the beginning of a relationship, they tended to have all the power, whereas in the end I would have all the power. Power differentials are quite common in various relationships, and I don't think it's necessarily fatal to the relationship although I don't think it's ideal either. I've never wanted to be friends with my therapist. I actually can't imagine being friends with him, partly because he's a lot older than me and we always had a parent-teenager dynamic and partly because we didn't really have much in common other than the fact that we're both well educated. He was cultured. He liked art and music. I tend to be somewhat low class in my interests, preferring drunken dance parties, cards against humanity, horror movies, and electronica to art shows and classical music. So I really just can't even imagine a friendship. But I think people who are closer in age and had common interests probably could be friends. There is a high risk of things going wrong, but the risk isn't 100%. I think it could work in some cases. Waiting for a period of time is probably a good idea though. |
![]() DP_2017, growlycat, LonesomeTonight
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#53
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Also I do understand the reasoning why it is often not a good idea or even a possibility. A T is a professional after all and the goal of the relationship is different. But to say it should never happen or that it is always wrong is an extremely rigid way of thinking and a bit far from real human experience.
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![]() DP_2017
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#54
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I think it's possible but I also think I wouldn't pin my hopes on it. I think sometimes people just say things so they dont out right reject you and in 2 years he may think differently. I'm sorry you are going through this.
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![]() ArtleyWilkins, DP_2017, elisewin, junkDNA, SalingerEsme
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#55
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Him not acting like a T but more than a paid friend to have mostly fun with when you were in therapy does make it somewhat suspicious that suddenly he imposes a strick 2-year-rule. I try not to comment negatively on people's T's that much, but now I almost have to
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#56
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Not quite. This topic has come up with us a few times before. However he always had different answers. One time he said it's never ok, one time he said 8 years. Each time, I came back with info I found online saying otherwise. It upset him and ended up with ruptures for us.
This time, I had a direct email response from the license place he is with, after he read that,he went with the "best practice" part of it BUT acknowledged it isn't a law or rule.... but he would feel more comfortable and less anxious with the 2 year and says he always does at least 2 years with clients. I know that he has a lot of anxiety and paranoia about "Getting in legal trouble" --he had another legal issue once that he told me about and I could just sense the change in him when he talked about it and he would tell me updates on it constantly, when it was over, he was like "I am so relieved" Once he out right admitted to me that something he did with me, had his boss found out, would "get my license at least suspended" so he was aware of the "possible" trouble.
__________________
Grief is the price you pay for love. |
#57
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I have a different take on the 2 year standard--it seems to serve as more of a deterrence against going around ethics. If not for the 2 year standard, the T and client could immediately end the therapy relationship to begin a romantic relationship. Too easy to act on...In effect, the 2 year wait prevents a loop hole from being taken advantage of.
I'm not sure if the 2 year standard is universal. I kept in touch with my former long term T on a casual friendship basis after our therapy ended. It was not a deep friendship. I also had intense transference with this T and had/have unresolved issues. However, I don't think people with trauma histories have to be completely resolved to engage in a healthy relationship with another person. As long as there's some self awareness, it can work just fine, as it does in my case. Your T seems to have many issues (telling a client about license problems is an example). I don't say this in a judgmental way, but in a sense that I'd be careful if carrying on with a relationship with him even if 2 years from now. |
![]() DP_2017, LonesomeTonight
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#58
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Quote:
That being said, I'm well aware that things can change in that time, I've said in a few of my replies here. None of us know what will happen then. He could have just said "Well you are allowed to reach out in 2 years" and left it at that if he wanted to be nice but it went beyond that. Many comments, some not even prompted about plans or things for the future. Again, time can change but who knows? I could even run into him sometime before then, not likely but I never know. Quote:
__________________
Grief is the price you pay for love. |
#59
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Yes, though it makes sense, in your case, did you wait the 2 years before the casual contact? I at least take SOME comfort in knowing he "liked" my dogs Facebook page and told me he will log in more regularly. I even watched him like the page. It will make me happy to know he can at least be aware when my dog eventually passes.
__________________
Grief is the price you pay for love. |
#60
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No, we didn't wait 2 years as it was unnecessary.
Not trying to deter anyone from being friends with someone who has issues, just noting being cautious crossedy mind. |
![]() DP_2017
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#61
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I think it's unnecessary too but it is what it is. No I get it, caution is always good. I use caution with everyone in my life. t was really the first person I ever let myself feel close to.... and I hated it. It's made this all so much harder.
__________________
Grief is the price you pay for love. |
![]() Merope
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#62
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For an LFMT in your state, you'd have to look up the ethics rules in the state board. It's likely they adopt the rules that the National Association for Marriage and Family Therapists, which are available here: Code of Ethics I don't see any rule that claims a therapist must wait two years before having nonsexual contact with a former client. Sexual relationships are explicitly prohibited and there is language in another rule about multiple relationships and avoiding exploitation, but I don't think those apply to former clients, just current ones. The language in other ethics codes is different, and I'm bringing this up from memory, but some professions do have a time limit on "social relationships", but many have widely interpreted that to mean "sexual" relationships but the code writers were too delicate to explicitly say so. And as at least one other person has said, there is "contact" that is social or friendly and then there are social relationships or friendships. None of the language or the interpretations of the ethics rules are set in much clarity. So even the text of the rules can be interpreted differently and I guess I haven't heard much about therapists being called up to the board because they had friendships with a client after therapy. But I think you already know because he told you that there is no specific rule but a "best practice." Again, I invite you to do your own web search to confirm this, but I believe there isn't much discussion about friendships post therapy (particularly when the therapist can no longer see a client, which is different than the issue of a client quitting because they want to skip to a friendship instead, which implicates the therapy). I think most of the ethics issues discussed revolve around sexual relationships or other potentially exploitation (e.g. going into a business together or otherwise taking the client's money). So I think it's b.s. that he is truly following the "law" or the best practice, and merely using it as an excuse to justify doing what he wants. If I were cross examining him I would want to get him to admit this is not about a "best practice" but is his decision and his choice. The question is why, though, which is something I can't answer. Only he can. I don't think it's because he never cared about you and doesn't want you in his life in the future. I could speculate about all kinds of things, including maybe he thinks it is best for you for whatever reason or maybe he's afraid of his feelings for you or maybe he just needs a clean break from his former workplace which sounds like it was pretty awful. But whatever it is, I'm pretty sure it's about him, whether he's trying to protect you in some way or make it easier on himself. Maybe he thinks his presence in your life is negative, a.k.a. Scott Peck (I may have this wrong), if you love something let it go. I think he's not being totally honest with you, although of course it's possible he really does believe in the "best practices." Maybe he doesn't even know what he's doing or why, but this seems like a clear bright line that is working for him right now. |
![]() elisewin, feralkittymom, Lemoncake, LonesomeTonight, SalingerEsme, unaluna
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#63
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Anne
I appreciate all that. The "best practice" thing actually came from an email I got directly from the license place. Reached out and got the answer myself. I showed it too him and that's when he used that term, otherwise he was using "statute"-- but the email said "it is best practice" for health professionals to not engage in any non therapy relationship, no matter how long has passed. It also said there is no rule or law forbidding it. It did say at the end that if a complaint were filed, they would investigate it normally. So... in a sense, he is kinda being generous with the 2 years, because the email suggested never. I think he's protecting himself if anything. The other thing is previously I've asked if I bumped into him somewhere, would he talk to me? He's only said, that he can't say anything unless I do but then it can only be brief hi and how are you. However, this time, when I asked that very thing, he said "Absolutely I would. It could be a bit weird for you depending on who I'd be with but yes I would chat with you" Then he also joked about hanging out in my city more often. He has told me NAMES of places in the area he lives that he goes to often. So, idk... plus he also has always said no social media connections ever. Yet, he logged into Facebook during session and showed me he liked my dog's page so he can "get some updates through there" So... idk. It's very odd. he was so different the last few sessions, almost like happiness and relief that he was leaving. He was happier and smiley. Normally those topics instantly made him pissy with me. So maybe there is some hope on his end. Who knows....
__________________
Grief is the price you pay for love. |
#64
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![]() DP_2017, growlycat, SlumberKitty
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#65
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Waiting 2 years minimizes the appearance of quitting therapy merely to engage in a personal relationship. Less likely that a T can be accused of ending therapy to exploit or be inappropriate if years have passed.
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![]() DP_2017, growlycat
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#66
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The idea that my T holds some authority over me now even when I am a client is laughable to me. I am not saying I am immune to exploitation by people or possibly even him, but just that it's not the kind of relationship I have with him. I could see having a post therapy relationship with him depending on the circumstances and I very much agree with you that it's possible for a relationship with a former T to work out just fine. The fact that others have been exploited by current or former therapists is a cautionary tale for all of us, but not a reason to avoid a relationship if you think it will work for you. |
![]() DP_2017
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#67
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That makes sense, thanks
__________________
Grief is the price you pay for love. |
#68
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We can't all expect that everyone will have the same outcomes in situations as we do.
__________________
Grief is the price you pay for love. |
#69
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well I mean... you asked for it to be explained. so people explained. no one's telling you what or what not to do
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![]() atisketatasket, DP_2017, Echos Myron redux, lucozader, toomanycats
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#70
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I agree.
i was just agreeing with her comment
__________________
Grief is the price you pay for love. |
![]() junkDNA
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#71
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Quote:
Playing games that would make people on PC LOSE THEIR MINDS, and your T quitting the field and you not seeing him any more seem inextricably linked together. I am sorry he didn't offer something of himself that was long-lasting and that he won't be there next week and the week after, until it was your choice to be done with therapy.
__________________
Living things don’t all require/ light in the same degree. Louise Gluck |
![]() AllHeart, Echos Myron redux, lucozader, scorpiosis37
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#72
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Yes, there is something immature and quite unnerving about the apparent boast of this mysteriously mind-blowing game. It feels like a competition - ironic since those of us who have had abusively intimate and sexually relationships with professionals (as opposed to those who stupidly fantasise about it) would not be in the least bit surprised about how unethical therapy descends into juvenile nonsense.
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![]() junkDNA, SalingerEsme
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![]() AllHeart, Echos Myron redux, junkDNA, lucozader, SalingerEsme, scorpiosis37
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#73
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If he wasnt ethical in his role as a t then I wonder what kind of friend he would make?
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![]() AllHeart, atisketatasket, Echos Myron redux, ElectricManatee, feralkittymom, Lemoncake, lucozader, Middlemarcher, SalingerEsme, scorpiosis37
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#74
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And i think contact is contact. Pretty sure i said if anything beyond was meant to happen it would otherwise in 2 yrs i wont care. Anyway in the end its up to him and i, whatx I'f anything happens then
__________________
Grief is the price you pay for love. |
#75
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So... you said your mom is a narc? Its ironic that she voiced an opinion on the ts unavailability, when she probably weaned you on it. Mine surely did. So many of the things you say, are like straight from my journals and sessions and talks with people, defending my relationships.
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