[Lrad123]

Has anyone every given their therapist an ultimatum? My T and I don’t really talk about child parts, but from what I’ve read, I am keenly aware that I’m behaving like demanding and bratty child. Please humor me though. I went to therapy on Wednesday and that unleashed all sorts of emotions that I’d like to just touch base with my T about, but about a month ago he said he would no longer respond to my emails. So he stirred the pot, then left me on my own to deal with all sorts of emotions that arose during our session. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to request a quick email to help me figure this out or to at least hold me over till our next session. I feel like telling him that if he doesn’t reply to my email then I won’t come to our session next week. Huge, bratty acting out, I know. But I’m mad and it feels good to think about at least.

[piggy momma]

Well, if you provide an ultimatum, you need to be prepared for the consequences. Your T will likely tell you he'll see you in two weeks then. Giving in to your ultimatum would be rewarding bad behaviour.

Is there another way to frame this?

Can you send your T an email, explain that you are aware he doesn't reply to emails outside of session, but you felt this was important enough that it warranted sending. Tell him you are willing to pay him for his time should he be willing to reply, and that you appreciate him taking the time to read it, either way.

Why not try working with him, instead of against him? It's ok to be mad at him - we all get mad at our Ts from time to time, but why not work through that anger with skills instead of pettiness?

[Ididitmyway]

No, I didn't because I knew it wouldn't scare them.

If you are not prepared to follow through on your threat, then it wouldn't help you. It wouldn't even give you a temporary satisfaction of feeling powerful because your T would be unfazed by it. It's not a big deal for him to lose you. He won't be terribly upset. But it is a big deal for you to lose him. So, if you make an empty threat, it'd make you feel even more powerless in the end.

You have to make a decision about staying or leaving. If you think the negatives of your therapy outweigh the positives, just leave without saying anything. Otherwise, just stay and accept what you have now, because it doesn't look like your T is someone who welcomes egalitarian discussions and negotiations on how to design the process. He makes all decisions by himself and he gives you little room to wiggle. With this rigid approach, your only choice is to accept it or to get the hell out of there. I'd choose the latter, but that's me.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by piggy momma

Well, if you provide an ultimatum, you need to be prepared for the consequences. Your T will likely tell you he'll see you in two weeks then. Giving in to your ultimatum would be rewarding bad behaviour.

Is there another way to frame this?

Can you send your T an email, explain that you are aware he doesn't reply to emails outside of session, but you felt this was important enough that it warranted sending. Tell him you are willing to pay him for his time should he be willing to reply, and that you appreciate him taking the time to read it, either way.

Why not try working with him, instead of against him? It's ok to be mad at him - we all get mad at our Ts from time to time, but why not work through that anger with skills instead of pettiness?

You are right. I won’t likely send an ultimatum, but it was satisfying to think about. I certainly journal quite a bit, and posting on PC is helpful too. Thankfully he has made it abundantly clear that he reads my emails in great detail, although he won’t respond (even if I offer to pay him). Although it seems from this post that I’m working against him, I’m not a hater, I actually like him very much although there is definitely something I’m working through here. My “skills” are probably ridiculously honed, and expressing emotions is where I’m really weak, so I suspect that even if it comes off as petty it will be a step in the right direction. I agree, though, that expressing anger/frustration is one thing, and sending an ultimatum is not going to be helpful even if it was momentarily satisfying.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

No, I didn't because I knew it wouldn't scare them.

If you are not prepared to follow through on your threat, then it wouldn't help you. It wouldn't even give you a temporary satisfaction of feeling powerful because your T would be unfazed by it. It's not a big deal for him to lose you. He won't be terribly upset. But it is a big deal for you to lose him. So, if you make an empty threat, it'd make you feel even more powerless in the end.

You have to make a decision about staying or leaving. If you think the negatives of your therapy outweigh the positives, just leave without saying anything. Otherwise, just stay and accept what you have now, because it doesn't look like your T is someone who welcomes egalitarian discussions and negotiations on how to design the process. He makes all decisions by himself and he gives you little room to wiggle. With this rigid approach, your only choice is to accept it or to get the hell out of there. I'd choose the latter, but that's me.

I agree that although it might feel good for about 30 seconds, I’d feel less powerful in the end, so I probably won’t do it. As for him being rigid, I’m not sure about that. I do think he’s mostly good even though I’m not exactly sure how to articulate it. I suppose it’s a gut feeling. He’s also psychodynamic so part of it is related to that.

[tomatenoir]

I told my therapist I needed a hug or we needed to end. He wouldn't hug me so I left therapy.

That said, I knew there was a 99% chance he wouldn't agree to the hug before I gave him the ultimatum. If you're giving ultimatums, you need to know you can follow through with them, and that what you're asking for is critical. They're really a last ditch chance to save a relationship, and I think you need to go in knowing it's unlikely to work. If you give in after giving an ultimatum, you'll feel awful and smaller.

One of the previous posters mentioned that therapists generally care less about the relationship than you do, and I think that's true. But I don't think the fear of losing someone who is not working for you is a reason to stay.

I'm sad my therapy ended the way it did, but I don't regret leaving, because it wasn't working for me any more. So I think you need to look at the big picture here - - if this is a momentary thing, talk to him. If the relationship isn't functioning for you, think carefully about what you want to do, and only issue an ultimatum if you're ready for the (likely) emotional fallout.

[feileacan]

I don't know if it's really ultimatum but we have had these discussions where I've said that I'm not sure there's point to continue treatment with him because he is not X or is not doing Y. Those X and Y things have always been very subtle though, not concrete things like responding to emails.

My T has never steadily responded to emails but he also declared at one point that he would not respond at all and some time later that he even would not read my emails anymore, these events initiated many heated discussions and accusations but not the ultimatums per se.

Having feelings stirred up during the session and left to deal with them on your own is very difficult. Have you been able to talk about it in session? Have you asked him what he suggests you could do in such a situation? In my opinion, one thing that could help would be more frequent sessions. Another thing that could help are short phone calls. Not every T can accommodate that but that was something I negotiated with my T for a period where I felt that I'm just not able to get through the day. Sure, he took this option away when he figured that I don't really need it anymore and then I was angry too but in fact I truly did not need it then anymore and that was ok.

Regarding such T's behaviour as rigid I'm convinced those who see it like this just lack the wider context to adequately evaluate things. This is the same as me evaluating other children mothers in childhood. Because I had absolutely no idea what function or meaning a mother has to a child and I could only generalise from my own very biased experiences I assessed them based on beauty. I could not understand how some children could tolerate or even seem to like their not so beautiful (or even worse, fat) mothers. I just couldn't understand it back then.

You say a quick email.

It wouldn't be quick. And the response might lead to more confusion.

I'm fortunate that T replys to my emails.
In the beginning though, I'd become angry at her response and nothing she could say was right.
Because she knows what she's doing she didn't abandon me but carried on emailing until i worked out what was really going on.
Nowadays its just a quick back and forth.
T use to say that tone cannot be picked up through email nor can she keep me safe through email. But she saw how important that connection was needed in my case.

So. Just be aware. This really isn't just about email. The email represents something (m)other to you.
If a T feels they can't convey tone nor feel they you are safe if email goes wrong then I can see why they won't engage in it.
Plus being left alone isn't quite right.
With time we carry the therapeutic experience within us.
They're are times we feel very alone. But the knowing that we will eventually be back in session and at the very least able to protest this.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by Jessica11

You say a quick email.

It wouldn't be quick. And the response might lead to more confusion.

I'm fortunate that T replys to my emails.
In the beginning though, I'd become angry at her response and nothing she could say was right.
Because she knows what she's doing she didn't abandon me but carried on emailing until i worked out what was really going on.
Nowadays its just a quick back and forth.
T use to say that tone cannot be picked up through email nor can she keep me safe through email. But she saw how important that connection was needed in my case.

So. Just be aware. This really isn't just about email. The email represents something (m)other to you.
If a T feels they can't convey tone nor feel they you are safe if email goes wrong then I can see why they won't engage in it.
Plus being left alone isn't quite right.
With time we carry the therapeutic experience within us.
They're are times we feel very alone. But the knowing that we will eventually be back in session and at the very least able to protest this.

Yes, you are lucky your T responds. I know that a quick email isn’t perfect, but it would be better than nothing. I’d just like to feel like I’m not alone in this because next time I see him I know I will likely be over this. But right now, I’m not. But I also struggle with the fact that I’m an adult, and of course I can deal with this on my own. I’m just surpringly angry about it and I don’t know what his role as my therapist should be. Surely there has to be a better way.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by feileacan

I don't know if it's really ultimatum but we have had these discussions where I've said that I'm not sure there's point to continue treatment with him because he is not X or is not doing Y. Those X and Y things have always been very subtle though, not concrete things like responding to emails.

I have this same conversation with my T all the time. He must wonder why I don’t leave because I’m always complaining and then I apologize for complaining and try to convince him that I’m really not a complainer. Most of the time what I complain about are subtle things, and if I’m going to take a jab at him I can do this much more freely via email, so maybe that’s kind of passive aggressive.

[ArtleyWilkins]

I never emailed with my therapists; it just wasn't something they offered and I didn't know it was a "thing," a possibility, so it was a non-issue. If I needed to communicate something to my therapist between sessions, I had to pick up the phone and speak to them directly.

I'm actually glad that phone conversation was really ever my only option. I knew if I picked up that phone, I had to have an actual conversation, so I took the time to think it through before I did so. For me, I think if email had been an option, it would have been too tempting to use it like a "drive by;" shoot off my mouth and run, knowing the consequences weren't immediate. And then I would have been stewing about what they thought or would they respond. Sounds too anxiety-laden for me.

I've had people do that via email to me (the joys of being a teacher), so I know how truly ineffective email is in dealing with highly charged emotional situations. Nothing really gets discussed, one person is misunderstanding the words of the other or simply using the impersonal method of communication to emotionally vent in a way that cuts of actual dialogue because they aren't really wanting to hear anything but their own voice. Things get built up in their heads in the meantime, waiting for a response that they often misinterpret anyway, and the situation escalates rather than resolving. I've learned to just pick up the phone and call; it de-escalates so many situations to just have a conversation, even just a few minutes, where both parties and talk, ask questions, clarify, and come to some sort of plan.

What would happen if you, instead of emailing, actually picked up the phone to call your therapist and spoke to him for a few minutes about the need to talk about your reaction to this change next time you have a session? How different would it be to actually express that need and allow him to dialogue with you for a few minutes so that you can both clarify your communication in real time? Maybe two minutes on the phone would actually be more calming and communicative than throwing out an email and being left to stew about the unfairness of the limitations of emails.

Something to think about maybe?

[SlumberKitty]

Originally Posted by Lrad123

Has anyone every given their therapist an ultimatum? My T and I don’t really talk about child parts, but from what I’ve read, I am keenly aware that I’m behaving like demanding and bratty child. Please humor me though. I went to therapy on Wednesday and that unleashed all sorts of emotions that I’d like to just touch base with my T about, but about a month ago he said he would no longer respond to my emails. So he stirred the pot, then left me on my own to deal with all sorts of emotions that arose during our session. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to request a quick email to help me figure this out or to at least hold me over till our next session. I feel like telling him that if he doesn’t reply to my email then I won’t come to our session next week. Huge, bratty acting out, I know. But I’m mad and it feels good to think about at least.

I've never given any of my T's an ultimatum and the T that kept giving me an ultimatum, well that relationship only lasted four sessions because I didn't like feeling bullied into doing something that I wasn't ready to do. I think give and take is a good course of action usually. I know sometimes it seems like it would feel good in the moment, and it might, but the aftermath might be a mess. Just my two cents. Kit.

[Lrad123]

I realize the ultimatum is a no-win situation. I’d feel frustrated with no response, but I might think he was weak if he did respond because he said he wasn’t going to. I sometimes feel like I’m trying to mess things up in therapy which is a new experience for me because that’s not generally how I operate in my real life.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

What would happen if you, instead of emailing, actually picked up the phone to call your therapist and spoke to him for a few minutes about the need to talk about your reaction to this change next time you have a session? How different would it be to actually express that need and allow him to dialogue with you for a few minutes so that you can both clarify your communication in real time? Maybe two minutes on the phone would actually be more calming and communicative than throwing out an email and being left to stew about the unfairness of the limitations of emails.

Something to think about maybe?

This sounds so very reasonable but I just don’t think I could talk to him on the phone!

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by Jessica11

This really isn't just about email. The email represents something (m)other to you.

So very true. I’m trying to figure it all out. Hoping I don’t alienate my T in the process. So far he’s sticking with my craziness which I am thankful for and a bit embarrassed about.

[mcl6136]

Originally Posted by Lrad123

Has anyone every given their therapist an ultimatum? My T and I don’t really talk about child parts, but from what I’ve read, I am keenly aware that I’m behaving like demanding and bratty child. Please humor me though. I went to therapy on Wednesday and that unleashed all sorts of emotions that I’d like to just touch base with my T about, but about a month ago he said he would no longer respond to my emails. So he stirred the pot, then left me on my own to deal with all sorts of emotions that arose during our session. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to request a quick email to help me figure this out or to at least hold me over till our next session. I feel like telling him that if he doesn’t reply to my email then I won’t come to our session next week. Huge, bratty acting out, I know. But I’m mad and it feels good to think about at least.

Acting out is one thing; entertaining doing something bratty is an entirely different matter.

My old T once said that even the best person in the world has had thoughts about perpetrating really awful deeds, but the difference is that only sociopaths routinely carry them out.

Just because you "feel like telling him" that you have an ultimatum doesn't mean that you're going to deliver that ultimatum.

Do you feel better having posted here?

[junkDNA]

I don't think most people respond well to ultimatums... unless it's like a toddler or something

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by Lrad123

I went to therapy on Wednesday and that unleashed all sorts of emotions that I’d like to just touch base with my T about, but about a month ago he said he would no longer respond to my emails. So he stirred the pot, then left me on my own to deal with all sorts of emotions that arose during our session. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to request a quick email to help me figure this out or to at least hold me over till our next session. I feel like telling him that if he doesn’t reply to my email then I won’t come to our session next week. Huge, bratty acting out, I know. But I’m mad and it feels good to think about at least.

I find it interesting that you were able to express emotions in session, when you previously reported, unless I am misremembering, that you were unable to. Originally that was your reason for emailing, because this wasn't happening in session.

I'm not surprised that you want to use email to deal with your emotions. It is not unreasonable to ask your T to respond but he's already said he won't. So that is unreasonable, in my opinion, to not take no for an answer. Learning to sit with emotions is a grown up job, and one thing that might help you is to use part of your session to talk about how you're going to deal with the stirred up pot for the next week.

I don't think the ultimatum is the issue nor is whether you are being bratty or whatever. It seems pretty toned down for what you're describing, the label doesn't seem to match the reality. To me "huge bratty acting out" would be setting his office door on fire or something.

As far as I've experienced, things being stirred up and going to the next session with the intention of processing them is just the way therapy has gone for me. When sessions were particularly intense, my T would offer a "containment" strategy at the end that worked really well for me. So it's possible that leaving a session doesn't have to be leaving you "alone," but your T has made it very clear he's not going to respond to your emails no matter the circumstances. Given that you're making progress, I'd be inclined to stick with it to see how far you can go next session, but you can skip with or without an ultimatum or quit or whatever seems best to you.

I think that ultimatums can sometimes work well if they aim to address something the other party is not doing responsibly, not sticking to their promises or prior agreements in a situation where there is mutual interest. I would not use ultimatums before exhausting most other forms of communication and before assessing my own part in it and whether I do participate sufficiently and my expectations are realistic.

I really doubt that a client can truly push a T to do what they don't want though, especially outside of session. Are you talking with him about your ongoing frustrations around emaling? Maybe that's how the experience could be most useful? You have definitely been through a lot regarding this email topic, including a period when you said stopping the emailing empowered you. It does seem like an ongoing struggle. I personally don't see demanding that he email realistic with a therapist unless they state explicitly that a certain amount/form/whatever of emailing is included in the service you pay for. I think acting out is fine but expecting the T to react according to those wishes that go beyond what is formally offered is quite unlikely to achieve anything but further frustration. As far as I understand, people who use therapy to work with similar interpersonal expectations do so by discussing it with the T. I don't think it is bad to act out occasionally though, that is what provides the material to work with I believe.

Originally Posted by Lrad123

I sometimes feel like I’m trying to mess things up in therapy which is a new experience for me because that’s not generally how I operate in my real life.

I relate to the above. I communicated with my first therapist in ways I never do anywhere else unless I am in a similar very frustrating situation where I don't see a solution and people are manipulating me. It's always similar kinds of situations/people that can bring that out of me but it takes a lot. I always find it very insightful to honestly think about what these types of reactions represent and why the strong feelings. I think the standard explanation that it comes from some childhood lacks or mistreatments is only one possibility - one that Ts and therapy models often propose, but I think it can be many more and I would encourage everyone to think outside of the box if the typical explanations don't feel right, both just ourselves and when talking with a T. In this case, for example, why this emailing thing has been such an ongoing frustration for you.

[susannahsays]

Yes I have given the therapist an ultimatum through text. I was mad because she kept talking about abuse and stuff. So I texted her and demanded she admit I was never abused or I would never come back. She texted me back and asked me if I would please come to the next session so we could talk about it. I went. She didn't say I wasn't abused, but she changed the you were abused blah blah to you believe you were not abused. I knew she was trying to be sneaky, but I accepted the compromise.

[InnerPeace111]

I have never given my T an ultimatum. I cannot imagine I ever would do something like that. It’s just not me or how I operate.

[Lrad123]

Giving an ultimatum is also “not me or how I operate” but my therapy life seems to have taken on a life of its own. I did not end up issuing an ultimatum, but i did feel some relief just talking about it here, and am thankful to PC for their input. I did end up sending my T an email (he’s been clear that he will read emails, just not respond) expressing my frustration with being left alone with the emotional hurricane that started after I left session last week. And, although I did not specifically ask for a reply, I think it was definitely implied that I would like one just to know that he’s there and that I’m not alone in this. That’s all. Not to fix things or to do therapy via email. And although I did not articulate an ultimatum, deep down inside I know that I may be using his lack of response as a reason to skip my upcoming session. So maybe there was an unspoken ultimatum. I know I should go and talk it through, but if I can finally get this emotional rollercoaster to slow down a bit, I’m not sure I want to show up for my session this week and get it going again, especially over the holidays.

[Anne2.0]

My intent is not to be critical of the way you are doing therapy, and I see it as positive that your therapy is allowing you to explore previously difficult emotions. I'm not sure of the value of expressing emotions for the sake of doing it differently, as opposed to expressing emotions in the direction of the way you want to go-- as in, openly and honestly and constructively, like a functional and healthy adult. What you're doing would definitely not work for me.

I think your frustration may lie in refusing to give up the fantasy that he's going to return to responding to your email. I think even if you had asked directly rather than "strongly implied", which may just be a euphemism for "attempt to manipulate", I doubt he would do it. He said he's not going to reply. What is different now that would change his mind, especially over email? Why not address it in session and see if you can come to a different agreement?

In my experience, my heightened or overreacting emotional state has been greatly assisted by going to a session. It seems to me that part of the learning here is to use sessions rather than emails to regulate your emotional response. Why not go to your session and talk about how you can contain your emotions? That seems like a better use of your money rather than skipping and paying for it anyway.

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

Why not address it in session and see if you can come to a different agreement?

I'm not OP but I've experienced the dynamic that she describes (or at least something very similar).

Why not address it in session? Because for some reason it just seems to be impossible. I might go into session with the full intent of addressing it all but then some automatic dynamics just take it over and things go the way they go. At least for me those things are not under conscious control and that's the reason they cannot be addressed cognitively.

I'm not saying it's impossible to make sense of those things and resolve them eventually but according to my experience it takes a wise and knowledgeable T who has the patient to wait it all to roll out. In my opinion the OP and her T are doing great work right now, with optimal pace and I'm pretty sure that one day it all pays off. But the process is what it is, it will be dictated by the OPs unconscious dynamics and the process takes as long as it takes, there's no way to rush it.

[stopdog]

Why not address something like this at an appointment? I always found it a complete waste of time, energy and money to bother talking to a therapist about this sort of thing. I found it more useful to simply find a different therapist. I believe in seeing more than one at a time or finding one who more lines up with what the client is seeking.