[DP_2017]

Well hopefully after talking it all out today, LT was able to get decide for herself how she feels about it all now. Often times miscommunication happens in emails, I know, it happened loads with me. In person is often a better way to discuss it.

I personally liked and agreed with his email. He had a lot of valid points, it's all how you look at it. I don't see any "sides" in it.... just care for her. Wanting to lay out his hopes for her in the best way he knows how.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by healed84

But- they way that people look at forgiveness is different. For you that is what it means. Just because I choose not to forgive somebody does not mean that I can’t let go off stuff or means it equates to negativeness in life. My point is that it seems forgiveness is subjective, and you are seeing everybody who is unforgiving in one way and that is simply just not true. It may be true for you, but it doesn’t mean it is true for anybody else.

Ya but if you can let go of stuff, as you put it, then you are basically forgiving, at least in my view of things. It's just a way to free yourself from the pain. Kinda like how you talk things out in therapy and work through them. I think we are all thinking forgiveness very differently at this point, anyway her T is allowed to have his view and she can say no thanks, it's not for me.

[susannahsays]

Healed literally said the way people look at forgiveness is different. I also said my definition is different. I don't think anybody who chooses not to forgive appreciates being told that they are actually forgiving people. It's very invalidating.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

Ok, just read his email and I hated it. I usually like him pretty well, except for his anti-scientific beliefs around autism. However, it rubs me the wrong way when people impose the idea that forgiveness is the only way forward. Maybe I am wrong or projecting because that is a personal pet peeve, but that's how I interpreted his email. I also don't think it was a good call on his end to bring up that an anxious parent + an anxious child is a bad match at the same time that he pushed his forgiveness approach. I can totally see why you felt like he was letting your mom off the hook. It feels like he's empathizing equally with your mom as with you. This is actually an example of countertransference, I believe, and I find it disturbing. I think that he is empathizing with your mom because he also finds you difficult at times due to your anxiety - though he perhaps won't admit it even to himself. Because he is not very educated in transference/countertransference and projective/introjective identification, he is very unlikely to recognize what is going on. Here is an excerpt from this website that I think is highly relevant.

"When they become recipients of what their clients’ project – sometimes called projective fantasies – therapists identify with their clients and/or with those who have been significantly impacted by their clients. Grayer and Sax (1986) note that in any given session, the therapist usually moves back and forth: identifying first with the client, then with a person who was impacted by the client, then with the client, and so forth."

Yes, this, exactly. It seems like it would be really easy as a therapist to get pulled into the client's relationship patterns without realizing it and inadvertently re-enact the past. I've definitely tried to do it to my therapist before, and sometimes I can visibly see her slowing down and realizing what I'm (unconsciously) doing so that she doesn't get sucked in. It's tricky stuff.

I think you are exactly right that Dr. T is unconsciously identifying with LT's mom because he finds LT difficult or perplexing too, even as he is mostly saying the "right" supportive things. He just can't see it. And it probably feels comforting and familiar to LT, even though it is a maladaptive pattern.

[susannahsays]

Btw LT, how was your psychiatrist appointment? I hope it went ok.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

Btw LT, how was your psychiatrist appointment? I hope it went ok.

Oh thanks for checking. It went OK. I started crying in the first minute, and I don't usually cry in there, so I think she took it easy on me. I sort of explained what was going on at the moment with T. (It's only 25-minute session, and we also had to talk medication, so didn't go into too many details.) I think my weepy state helped keep her from going on about alcohol stuff too much, she seemed to approve of approaches I was using to be mindful of it and work at cutting back, plus that I'm working on it with T.

I do appreciate her, because a couple meds I mentioned, she was like, in one case, "yeah, that's just these two older, cheaper meds combined, for much more money" (I think mix of Buspar and Zoloft--forget if the one she was referring to was Vibryd or another one). She's having me try really low dose of Abilify again (she said I could even take it every other day--I'm really sensitive to meds) with the Zoloft to help with the depressive spirals I can get in. (I've tried quite a few meds over the past 5 years, some with some pretty bad adverse effects, like psychological effects--no SNRIs for me!)

[NP_Complete]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Ya but if you can let go of stuff, as you put it, then you are basically forgiving, at least in my view of things. It's just a way to free yourself from the pain. Kinda like how you talk things out in therapy and work through them. I think we are all thinking forgiveness very differently at this point, anyway her T is allowed to have his view and she can say no thanks, it's not for me.

Forgiving my husband for calling me a fat, ugly c*** hundreds of times is not going to free me from the pain of being called that. In fact, the opposite might have to happen. I would need to feel free from the pain in order to forgive him. Forgiveness is an extremely personal process that doesn't necessarily need to happen for everyone. Everyone is entitled to their own approach to it.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by NP_Complete

Forgiving my husband for calling me a fat, ugly c*** hundreds of times is not going to free me from the pain of being called that. In fact, the opposite might have to happen. I would need to feel free from the pain in order to forgive him. Forgiveness is an extremely personal process that doesn't necessarily need to happen for everyone. Everyone is entitled to their own approach to it.

Ummm ok. Forget I spoke. Do whatever. Idk why you stay married if he's that cruel but that's your thing to deal with

Anyway I'm obviously being outdone here so whatever to all of you. Do whatever you want.

Anyway I'll save my views for lt privately off here. This isn't a place for me without judgment

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Ummm ok. Forget I spoke. Do whatever. Idk why you stay married if he's that cruel but that's your thing to deal with

Anyway I'm obviously being outdone here so whatever to all of you. Do whatever you want.

Anyway I'll save my views for lt privately off here. This isn't a place for me without judgment

Do you really not see that your first para here is a bit off the beam?
Disagreement with the idea your approach is universal and acknowledgment it does not work the same way for all is not the same as judgment.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Do you really not see that your first para here is a bit off the beam?

Oh ya I'm such a monster for thinking she deserves better.

Thankfully none of you have to deal with me anymore. I'm done with all of this

[NP_Complete]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Ummm ok. Forget I spoke. Do whatever. Idk why you stay married if he's that cruel but that's your thing to deal with

Anyway I'm obviously being outdone here so whatever to all of you. Do whatever you want.

Anyway I'll save my views for lt privately off here. This isn't a place for me without judgment

For the record, and I'm sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, I call him my husband because technically he is. He is currently serving a prison sentence for one of the things he did in my general direction and when I can gather my emotional resources enough to seek out legal advice, I will divorce him and refer to him as my ex-husband, but I'm not there yet.

I wasn't attacking you personally. I was trying to point out that everyone does the forgiveness thing differently, including you, and that's okay.

[NP_Complete]

I'm sorry I brought up my personal experiences.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by NP_Complete

I'm sorry I brought up my personal experiences.

I found they related to the topic that was being discussed and I think it was a brave thing to post.

[LonesomeTonight]

T Wednesday (day early by request). T was wearing jeans, which is rare for him, plus his R2-D2 socks (plus shirt and shoes). Went back and sat down. Me: "Sorry for requesting an earlier session, then declining it, then emailing, then asking for earlier session again." T: "It's not a problem. It all worked out." Me: "Yeah."

T: "You look really anxious." Me: "I am really anxious." T: "Do you want to talk about why you're so anxious?" Me: "I guess...this just feels like it could be an important session, like make-or-break for me." T: "Hm. OK...well, if you feel you need to terminate after this, it would be completely up to you." (He said it more kindly than it likely reads here--think he was just reassuring me that he wouldn't terminate.)

I couldn't look at him for first few things I shared, actually hiding my face behind my hand, which is unusual for me. Me: "I guess I just wasn't feeling that good about things after session, then thought maybe the email would help resolve things...but it sort of made it worse." T: "Tell me what you were feeling." Me: "It just felt in session like you were pushing the forgiveness thing on me when I wasn't sure about it. I thought maybe in the email you'd back off from it a bit, or say it's not the only path, but instead, it seemed like you pushed it even more. It felt like you had an agenda. And it's like...if you think that's the only direction I can go in, like if I have to go toward forgiving my mom...then...I don't know. I'm not totally sure this could work."

T: "The thing with forgiveness is, if you're feeling anger at someone, it can really consume you. Affect your mental health, your physical health." He said something else about it, and I waited until he was done. Me: "But the thing is, I haven't even really gotten to anger yet. It's like I've gone from blaming myself...to now I'm supposed to forgive her? I feel I've spent my whole life in a way forgiving people, letting them off the hook for things, blaming myself instead." T: "Well, it's not the only way forward. I'm sorry it seemed like I was saying that." Me: "It did." T: "And if you did aim for forgiveness, it wouldn't be an immediate thing. It's more of an endgame. It could be a year, 5 years, even 50 years from now."

Me: "OK. But what if even I don't feel forgiveness is the right thing for me? I guess there's a difference between forgiveness and acceptance." T: "Yes there is a difference." Me: "But maybe acceptance is the right thing for me?" T: "It could be. Like I said, there's not just the one path, it's just the one that tends to have the most psychological evidence as being helpful." Me: "OK."

Me: "I think the thing is...with ex-MC, what helped me was realizing that it wasn't all my fault. That he had some blame in it, too. It wasn't just I screwed up the relationship by saying something to him that I shouldn't have. And I feel I've generally worked through that, but wouldn't say I've forgiven him. And don't feel like I need to with him to move forward." T: "OK. So you do feel you have moved past that?" Me: "It feels like, since I was really sad at the anniversary of the termination, a month ago, it's like I've been able to move forward." T: "Good."

Me (back to covering face): "The other thing is...I was really bothered by the ;difficult child' thing. In the email, you acknowledged that it hurt me to hear that...but then you went ahead and said, 'but you were a difficult child, at least difficult for your mother to raise.' And that was painful because you acknowledged it hurt me, then reiterated it." T: "Well, I was just trying to point out that you were probably a challenge for her to raise." Me (crying): "But the thing is, I've been telling myself that my whole life, how I'm the one who was the problem, and now it feels like you're just reinforcing those negative feelings. So how is that supposed to help me?"

T: "Well, I assume you would consider D to be a difficult, challenging child, right?" Me: "Yes, but that doesn't mean I'd expect her to forgive me for failing to meet some of her needs. I think that's what's hard for me, that it seems like if I was difficult, it was OK that my mom didn't meet my needs." T: "I've said multiple times, including, I think, in the email, that it's the parent's responsibility to adapt to their child. Not the other way around." Me: "yeah...but if I forgave my mom, it feels like I'm letting her off the hook for that." T: "It's not about letting anyone off the hook. It's for you to move forward."

Me: "I guess it's just...I mean, there was stuff I specifically asked her for, like seeing a T when I was in high school. And she wouldn't do that. I mean, I guess she had me see a psychiatrist for a bit when I was 12, but that was more I think because they didn't know how to deal with me, it wasn't so much that I was suffering." We talked about that briefly, the few memories I had of that p-doc, how I felt she wasn't overly helpful. Then shifted to discussing how my mom seemed to want to keep mental illness hidden. And how she didn't seem to have much empathy for her brother, who is bipolar and has had some substance-abuse issues. And how my cousin's daughter had issues with depression, and I told my mom (as an adult) how maybe i could reach out to her and share my experiences, and my mom was like, "No, don't do that!" I told T I reached out anyway, but didn't share many details about what I'd gone through, just said I was there if she needed to talk. T: "So it sounds like your mom has a certain stigma about mental illness." Me: "Yeah...I wonder if it's because she doesn't want to recognize her anxiety in herself. Like...how someone might present as homophobic because they have trouble coming to terms with their sexuality." T said was good comparison.

Me: "The thing is...her attitude toward mental illness just contributed to my feelings that I was screwed up. And I would often think I was less deserving of love because of my mental issues, from my parents or from anyone." T: "I would argue that it actually made you *more* deserving of love." Me: "What..?" T: "Don't you think you probably give your daughter more attention in some ways because she has special needs?" Me: "Yeah, I guess I do." T: "Well, I think you should have gotten more love and attention from your parents because of your struggles. Not less." His saying that really resonated with me. It counteracted a belief I'd had since childhood.

Somewhere in there I said in his talking about how I should forgive, it felt a bit like he had an agenda for me. That he though I needed to be a certain way. How that reminded me of my mom, thinking I needed to be a certain person even though it isn't who I am. T said he didn't have an agenda for me and wasn't trying to make me into someone else. T: "But I do have a vision for you: that you'll be able to become more at peace with your emotions and with yourself." I was sort of touched by that, partly in how he said it and looked at me? I could feel the caring--and maybe even love?--coming from him there.

I forget how we transitioned to this part (maybe it was earlier?), but I shared some of how I'd felt the day before, after receiving his email.

Possible trigger:

Me: "I'm afraid to share this. I know it's really messed up. But I guess I should. When I was driving toward D's school yesterday to pick her up, I was looking at the light poles and thinking to myself, 'I wonder how fast I'd have to drive into one to...' I'm sorry, I know that's screwed up. It was before I got her, of course I'd never do anything with her in the car. I'd never hurt her. I mean...I guess if I'd done something to myself that would have hurt her... But I was thinking, 'Well, I have to pick her up.' I don't think I would have done anything. But I hate that I had that thought, I hate that my mind went there. It scares me. I don't want it to go there."

I nervously looked at T. He had an caring, sort of sad look. T pointed at some papers, "Was it all because of these?" Me: "Because of what?" T: "The email exchange?" Me: "Not just that, more what the feelings dredged up from my past, from childhood, those sorts of feelings." T: "OK."

I said that maybe I'm doing too much, pushing too hard in therapy right now. How I've kind of gotten to a point where I've mostly worked past the ex-MC stuff and now I'm diving right into all the childhood stuff, and maybe I'm pushing too hard? Plus trying to walk a couple times a week, do yoga a couple times a week, cut back on drinking, eat more healthily... T: "That does sound like a lot at once." Me: "Yeah...and I don't know what the answer is. Just push a bit less on stuff in here? Stop going twice weekly for a bit? Take a break, whether see someone else for a little bit or just a break from therapy entirely for a bit? I don't know." I forget what T said to that, but we were out of time, so no time to really address it.

I said I knew we had to stop, but the session had been really helpful. That I felt we'd worked through things. How I know we'll have a conflict, then I'll come in and we'll work through it, and maybe it could seem like...oh you'll just say something nice then I'd be OK. T: "Like I'd backpedal or something?" Me: "Yeah...but I don't feel like you did that. The thing is, if we couldn't work through it, then...why would I keep coming back?" T: "If we couldn't work through things, then that would be an excellent reason for you to to terminate." Me: "Yeah...But we have worked through things."

Confirmed next Monday and Thursday. Went over to pay, confirmed how much he was charging me for email ($45), which I'd already agreed to (was concerned would be higher). Shook hands as he said, "Have a good week. Oh, and I guess a good weekend, too." Me: "Thanks, you too." I glanced back at him as I walked out the door, hoping he would look up, but he didn't. I very quietly said, "Bye."

Still feeling good about the session a couple days later (no urges to contact him or anything). I think we communicated well and understood each other. I think the most important part is that he seemed to understand why I was upset and where I was coming from.

I think forgiveness is a difficult theme for women. We are taught to be understanding, malleable, and to deprioritise our needs in preference for those of others. If we are angry or hurt or resentful or show our "ugly" emotions then we are exiled or admonished. I am not sure that forgiveness has much of a place in most women's recovery from hurt. I don't think our emotional responses and associated choices need to be binary; we can be unforgiving without being bitter.

My mother was abusive throughout my childhood. I don't forgive her and I don't accept her behaviours; I understand that her mental illness and alcoholism caused her to be abusive. Her behaviour is her responsibility. As such, it is her responsibility to forgive herself and accept her actions, I am not accountable for forgiving her.

[Anne2.0]

So this thing he said really knocked me out: T: "But I do have a vision for you: that you'll be able to become more at peace with your emotions and with yourself."

I think the word "forgiveness" has some stereotyped cultural baggage attached to it, probably steeped in religious tropes. Like the idea that it means you go up to someone an announce "I forgive you" when I think T is talking about an internal process that may have forgiveness as a piece of it, or not. Not necessarily forgiveness of her, but even if it seems like this is something to explore, it doesn't involve the other person at all, if you want it to. I think it's just a big umbrella under which peace might be found, but it's not the only umbrella around. But working towards peace seems like the right way to go about it, no matter what that includes.

[ArtleyWilkins]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

So this thing he said really knocked me out: T: "But I do have a vision for you: that you'll be able to become more at peace with your emotions and with yourself."

I think the word "forgiveness" has some stereotyped cultural baggage attached to it, probably steeped in religious tropes. Like the idea that it means you go up to someone an announce "I forgive you" when I think T is talking about an internal process that may have forgiveness as a piece of it, or not. Not necessarily forgiveness of her, but even if it seems like this is something to explore, it doesn't involve the other person at all, if you want it to. I think it's just a big umbrella under which peace might be found, but it's not the only umbrella around. But working towards peace seems like the right way to go about it, no matter what that includes.

I feel fairly certain this is exactly what he is talking about.

I have had some real monsters in my life, and it was only when I reached that place of forgiveness that I was able to find some internal peace.

Forgiveness, for me, is not dependent on that other person at all. It is not an "acceptance" of their behavior nor of the situation at all. It does not require them apologizing; I could wait for hell to freeze over and that would never happen. It has nothing to do with forgetting; the healthy mind doesn't work that way. But if I waited for me to "accept" what happened to me or what they did, if I waited for them to apologize, if I waited to forget, I was going to live in anger and anxiety and bitterness and depression for the rest of my life. And I was tired of living that way; I had done that for far too long and it was eating my soul.

Forgiveness was me choosing to put aside that history once I had looked at it enough and realized it wasn't going to change; it wasn't going to go anywhere. I had looked at it enough; why keep looking at it if it wasn't going to change and looking at it continuously caused me pain?

It's kind of like when a horrible disaster happens and you get stuck watching all the news coverage of it. You can't turn off the television for some reason. You hunt for more and more information, and it's all the same and all bad and all horrible to look at. At some point, you have to stop looking or it consumes you; it becomes traumatizing in itself.

My history with my monsters had become that for me. It was a deliberate act to decide to put it aside and look in another direction. For me, that was my moment of forgiveness. It was a letting go and an allowing my life to move on without that baggage.

My therapist talked about putting my history in a box on a high shelf way in the back of my closet. I know it's there. I can choose to pull it out again if for some reason I need to, but it's in a box behind other stuff. I don't see it every day. I forget about it for long periods of time. Where did I put that box anyway? Oh well, I don't need it right now. I'll look for it later.

It's so much more peaceful with that history put away. I can breathe again. That's what forgiveness has turned out to be for me.

The forgiveness is really for you, not the other person.

I think of it as a modern view of forgiveness that is similar to loving kindness meditation. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but I was thinking your T may have had this in mind. The loving kindness is something I am trying to do in my effort to deal with some anger issues. I haven't found other ways to get past a few things that left me stuck for longer than I what would have been expected. But I have made progress and am getting there.

Your T will help you get to where you want to be.

This person sums it up in a simple way:

In fact, you may never say the words “I forgive you” out loud. Instead, forgiveness is an internal process, something you do to help come to terms with a past experience and end your suffering, pain, anger, and resentment around the event. You simply decide to stop focusing on blame and instead move forward in a more positive direction.

Why Forgiving Others Is the Best Thing You Can Do—for Yourself - Happify Daily

Loving kindness meditation:

Loving-kindness meditation (LKM) is a special type of Buddhist meditation that aims to cultivate unconditional kind attitudes toward oneself and others. The core psychological operation is to keep generating one’s kind intentions toward certain targets, while the detailed operations vary across different Buddhist traditions. Generally, practitioners silently repeat some phrases, such as “may you be happy” or “may you be free from suffering” toward targets. In some traditions, they also visualize the mental image of the targets or light from one’s heart toward others to help the generation of intentions (Sujiva, 2007). The targets change gradually with practice, following an order from easy to difficult; they generally begin with oneself, then loved ones, neutral ones, difficult ones and finally all beings, with variations across traditions. Buddhism claims that LKM cultivates four sublime attitudes called “four immeasurables”: (1) loving-kindness, which refers to unselfish friendliness; (2) compassion, which refers to a willingness to cease the suffering of the distressed one; (3) appreciative joy, which refers to feeling happiness for other’s success or fortune; and (4) equanimity, which refers to calm toward the fate of others based on wisdom.

The effect of loving-kindness meditation on positive emotions: a meta-analytic review

[unaluna]

Artley - well put. And now that i know and accept what is in the box (definitely not candy!), i dont keep opening it up and looking for candy. That was the hardest part for me.

[ArtleyWilkins]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Artley - well put. And now that i know and accept what is in the box (definitely not candy!), i dont keep opening it up and looking for candy. That was the hardest part for me.

Yeah. It was hard to put it away. I struggled with feeling like I was somehow betraying myself. It took a long time to get it into the box, and then deliberately making room on that shelf was another chore, and then having the courage to put it up there on that shelf, out of sight, was another step.

But then it was done. And it was SUCH a relief when I finally did it.

I rarely look into that box anymore. It isn't candy in there, which keeps me from that temptation. I completely understand what you are saying. It's more like I know it is Pandora's box. I now fear opening it again and not being able to put the lid back on. Some things are better left in a box on the back of the top shelf.

I know what is in there. I don't have to look at it again to somehow make it more real.

It was interesting when my mother passed away and we were cleaning out her house. She had SO much put away, literally, in boxes on high shelves in the back of closets, in the attic, under the beds. And in looking at what was in those boxes, we realized MUCH of it was memory, MUCH of it was very painful memory. And our sweet mother had had the wisdom to literally put those things away, out of eyesight, out of constant memory. Smart woman. She always was a woman able to find peace within herself. I know how she did it now. I wish I had learned sooner.

What you all seem to be describing is resolution, an internal process which does not necessarily require the other. This is quite distinct from forgiveness which is relational by nature.

[Oliviab]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

What you all seem to be describing is resolution, an internal process which does not necessarily require the other. This is quite distinct from forgiveness which is relational by nature.

I agree with this. What many people are describing above sounds like a healthy internal process, but it doesn't sound like the more traditional/common definitions of "forgiveness," at least the ones I'm familiar with. So it seems like we're arguing about concepts, but mostly I think we're arguing about semantics.

Based on the definitions I'm still finding in dictionaries and on-line, and the cultural and religious connotations of the term forgiveness, I'm in no hurry to adopt it to describe this internal process, but I understand that for others it has evolved to mean this.

[susannahsays]

Yes, there is certainly a difference in semantics here. I would also say that for me, it is important to differentiate when I forgive someone in a more traditional sense, and when I am doing this other internal process being described. For me, it doesn't feel accurate to call them the same thing. I forgive my dad for his physical abuse when I was young. I truly don't hold it against him and we have a very good relationship. When he does something that makes me angry, it does not summon thoughts of the physical abuse because I truly forgave him and moved past it in how I thought of him and related to him.

I certainly don't forgive the perpetrators who sexually abused me. I think anger is an appropriate emotion to feel towards them. I won't pretend I am currently at peace with what they did, either - so I haven't forgiven them, regardless of the definition.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to get at is that it's important to me personally to differentiate between the forgiveness of my dad and any possible outcome of how I think about and relate to the perpetrators of sexual abuse. It will never be the same thing to me, so I don't want to use the same word. I don't plan on opening my heart to these people as if they had not done what they did, and for me, that is part of forgiveness. I can't say I forgive someone while also wanting nothing to do with them because of what they did, and also feeling less empathy and compassion towards them than I would someone who had not hurt me. The latter doesn't mean I sit around wishing them ill, but I would not feel the same instinctual sense of concern for them if something bad happened as I would for a stranger. That would create cognitive dissonance around my definition of forgiveness.

[LonesomeTonight]

I appreciate all the discussion about forgiveness and what it means to people. How there are different definitions. I think acceptance is what rings more true for me. We haven't so much discussed it the past few sessions--didn't write up the ones from last week, but posting this Monday's now. (My mom did come up briefly there.)

[LonesomeTonight]

T Monday. It was pouring rain as I drove to the session. When T retrieved me, I *thought* he said, "Is it a bit wet?" (referring to outside). Me: "Actually, very wet." T: "You're very wet?" Me (my brain jumping to the potential other meaning there): "What? I thought you asked about outside?" T: "No, I asked, 'Are you a bit wet?' and you said, 'Very wet.'" Me: "Oh, I misheard you then, I just meant the outside in general." One of those sort of...awkward beginnings. At least I was walking in front of him, so if my face turned red, he couldn't see it...

We sat down. T: "So how are you?" Me: "Well, I survived Mother's Day." T: "I can see that!" Me: "haha." T: "So you survived from both sides then, as mother and daughter?" I said yes and mentioned having dinner with my parents the day before, how it went OK. Talked about D being super cranky that morning, which was like "Happy Mother's Day to me!" T asked if she was at a point where she would adapt her actions to how someone was feeling. I said not really, that she might comment that I'm not feeling well, but didn't so much think "Oh it's Mother's Day, I should be nice." I said I wasn't sure if that was the autism or her age. T said at 8, it's common for kids to struggle with that, so maybe both.

I said how I'd felt really sad Saturday night but wasn't sure why. That I thought maybe part of it was that I'd just bought a Mother's Day card, and it can be hard because I see my mom differently now from being in therapy. That I used to get her really mushy ones, but have trouble with that now. And I ended up just getting a semi-generic daughter and son-in-law card.

T asked if I felt my mom was introspective at all, like did she examine herself. I thought for a minute and said I feel she examines other people, but not so much herself. T said he got the same impression. T: "I know I've mentioned this many times to you about her clearly having anxiety. But I'm not sure if you've really accepted it?" Me: "I don't know..." I started crying. Me: "I guess it's just, if she does have anxiety, then why isn't she more accepting and understanding of me?" He said she might not be aware of the anxiety in herself.

I said how for me, it helps me to talk about my own experiences with someone else who had shared them. I said I'd had lunch on Friday with the woman, K, I'd met in the online autism group, and it was just nice being able to talk to someone who had similar parenting experiences. T: "It can be really helpful to talk to someone who really understands, can't it?" Me: "Yeah. Like connecting over issues with having our kids figure out how to blow their noses. Though maybe most parents deal with that, I don't know." I was mentioning the lunch and said I almost called it a "session." T smiled: "A playdate?" Me: "Sure, we can go with that."

Me: "Oh, so something interesting: I saw K Friday and my friend J the Friday before. Normally, afterward, I'd be obsessing about the conversation, like, 'oh no, I forgot to ask her about x' or 'did I talk to much about y?' 'Will they not want to get together again?' But instead...I realized I was just thinking, 'That was good to see them.'" T gave a big smile: "That seems like a positive thing." Me: "Yeah, it was nice. And K said at the end that we should get together again soon." T: "That seems promising!" Me: "Yeah."

I said that Mother's Day also made me think of ex-T. How I thought about emailing her Happy Mother's Day, but wasn't sure if that would be weird. So I thought I could send her an update email because it had been almost a year. Me: "But the furthest I got on it was just the subject line, 'Update on how I'm doing.'" T: "That's a very succinct update!" Me: "Yes, I guess it's just, 'still exist!'" T asked what I wanted to tell her. I said I wasn't sure, how part of me wanted to say he was helping me, but I felt awkward about that. T: "Why?" Me: "Well...this might be a weird comparison. But it almost feels like if I was emailing an ex, who I'd dumped, saying how happy I was with who I'm dating now." T said that T's are generally happy that their clients are doing well, even with someone else.

Me: "I guess maybe I'm concerned she'd feel she'd failed me?" T: "You think she might feel that way?" Me: "I don't know. And I guess I still feel bad about how I left. Like, 'OK, going to see this other person, if nothing else, I'll be back to terminate.' Then I never went back." T: "Would you be emailing for you or for her?" Me: "That's what I'm not sure of. Maybe it's out of guilt? That's why I'm struggling with what to say." T said I could just send something brief. I said I could mention how D is doing. I said how in some ways I feel guilty that I don't miss her more. Me: "Like, there are no songs that I associate with her, like with ex-MC." (I didn't mentioned that I do have a few songs I associate with T.)

I went back to talking about feeling really sad Saturday night, like crying in my car on the way home from the grocery store. I said I'd thought about emailing T, but realized he wouldn't read it that night, so I'd wait to see how I felt in the morning, but even then, I'd be seeing him the next day, so may as well wait. He seemed impressed by that.

T: "So what do you think was going on? Was it something besides the Mother's Day thing?" Me: "Well, I was also listening to some music I associate with ex-MC. So it may have been about him. I feel like recently I've been missing certain things about him--is that maybe a sign that I'm in a different stage of grieving?" T: "Sounds like it could be." Me: "OK, good. And part of why I'm listening to the music is that...you know the band I saw when I wrote the email to him? I'm seeing them again next month in the same venue where I saw them that time." T: "I thought you'd seen them again already?" Me: "Yes, but in a different venue, with H. And I've been back to that venue to see a different band." T: "Just not the two combined?" Me: "Yeah, and I'll be alone this time. So it's like I'm trying to listen to the couple songs I associate with him that they usually play...so maybe I can get used to them and not get all emotional."

Me: "I had the thought...I wondered about playing one of the songs in here and talking about the emotions it brought up. But I wasn't sure. Because I mentioned something about playing a song in here before and you'd seemed uncertain." T: "Well, I wanted to figure out what you hoped to get from it. Would you hope I'd get the same feeling from the song?" Me: "I mean, I wouldn't expect you to have the same reaction to the song I did. Plus I know you're not into music. I'm not thinking 'this is the song that's going to convert you'!" T: "OK." Me: "Though I am kind of a music evangelist." T: "Yes, I got that sense about you."

Led to me discussing how important music (in general) is to me, which made me start crying. Me: "Ugh, why am I crying right now?" T: "Music obviously has a lot of meaning to you." Me: "yeah." I said maybe I needed to use it more. T talked about possibly playing an instrument, how some people find that a good emotional outlet. I said how H has a guitar and I always wanted to learn. He said seemed like a good option. And then he was talking about how making music, the rhythm can connect with the body's rhythms, about feeling it in one's body, something like that. That it can be meditative. I said going to live shows is kind of like that for me, being able to feel the bass in my body.

Went back to the idea playing a song (from my phone) for him in there thing. I said how it just felt like something I wanted to try. He said would fine as long as it wouldn't disrupt anyone. I said I wouldn't come in and play a drum kit or something. And that I wouldn't subject him to my singing, because then he might have to bill me a surcharge. T: "For pain and suffering?" Me: "Exactly."

I said I still felt a sense of reluctance from him. Kind of the same when I mentioned bringing in some photos to share (which I never did). Me: "Is it just that you want to know what I want to get out of it?" T: "Yes, to know your expectations. How you expect me to react. So that you don't end up disappointed if I don't react a certain way. Plus if you played a song for me, I'd feel really awkward if you were just sitting there staring at me, waiting to see my reaction." Me: "I wouldn't stare at you. I could close my eyes if that would be easier." T: "Or stand in the corner. No, I'm just kidding about that." Me: "I could wait in the hallway." T: "I would just ask, if you want to play me something, to print out the lyrics. It can be difficult to understand singers sometimes." Me: "OK, though it's not just about the lyrics, but them mixed with the music. Again, I wouldn't expect you to have the reaction I do. I could print them though."

He was saying that if it was more about the lyrics and about what the song meant to me, then what did I feel was the benefit of playing it for him rather than just sharing the lyrics and discussing what it meant. Me: "I don't know...I just feel like I want to share it. Like...it's this inner part of me that maybe I can't express in some other way. It's a certain vulnerability, to share that. I think maybe i just want to see what it feels like?" T: "OK." I knew we had to stop, and T picked up his phone to schedule.

Confirmed Thursday. T: "You here next week?" Me: "Yes, I'm here. Are you here?" T: "I'm here." Me: "OK then." Scheduled usual times. Went over and paid. Shaking hands. T: "Good luck out there." Me: "Thanks, I'll do my best to stay dry." T: "Take care." Me: "You too."