[SlumberKitty]

LT--I didn't really get why there had to be a big (it seemed big) discussion about playing a song for him. But I do understand him wanting to know what you wanted from it so that you wouldn't be disappointed. That makes sense. I know when I shared a song via text message with former T she just said something like, I could see why that song means a lot to you (or something like that). It wasn't about what she got out of it, but that she could see me through the song, or something like that. I wonder if that is how it is for you? Seems like a good session though. Great job about not having a lot of anxiety over meeting with your friends. That seems like big progress. Well done. HUGS Kit

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by SlumberKitty

LT--I didn't really get why there had to be a big (it seemed big) discussion about playing a song for him. But I do understand him wanting to know what you wanted from it so that you wouldn't be disappointed. That makes sense. I know when I shared a song via text message with former T she just said something like, I could see why that song means a lot to you (or something like that). It wasn't about what she got out of it, but that she could see me through the song, or something like that. I wonder if that is how it is for you? Seems like a good session though. Great job about not having a lot of anxiety over meeting with your friends. That seems like big progress. Well done. HUGS Kit

I'm not sure. I think it felt a bit like rejection, how I'd mentioned it a couple times in the past (along with the showing him pictures thing). And I guess I just needed to know why. Like why not just say, "Sure, if it's something you want to do." I appreciate that he's trying to avoid having me do something with certain expectations, then being let down by his reaction or just from the experience as a whole not leading to what I'd hoped to get out of it.

I think the issue is, in discussing it so much (over a few sessions, one being months ago), now it almost feels like a bigger thing. Like if the first time I mentioned it, he was like, "Sure go ahead," then I probably would have done it, and then it would have turned out however it did, I likely would have just moved forward (maybe played something again, maybe not).

But I know he's trying to be careful and responsible and a good T. Yet there's this element of, I want to express myself, and it seems like he's saying, "eh, maybe?" instead of go for it. (I mean, of course there are forms of self-expression that *wouldn't* be ok, like if I wanted to take my clothes off or destroy his office or something.) So I have to wonder if this is tapping into something else in me, like from childhood maybe? Like when my parents wouldn't let me express myself a certain way? (Well, my mom always refused to buy me a guitar, for one. And said I had too much music, so if I bought a tape or CD--with my own money--I'd often sneak it into the house. So maybe this is tied into that in some way? I'm still contemplating playing something (fairly short, maybe a pretty straightforward song) at the start of session tomorrow, and if it feels too weird after a minute, I could turn it off. Or if he is just sorta like "Uh, OK." And the discussion doesn't go anywhere, we'd have plenty of time to discuss something else...

[SlumberKitty]

I hope whatever you choose to do turns out well for you.
This isn't the exact same thing, but my parents did not like me painting my nails black. And although it wasn't a "goth" thing with me, I just really like the way they look...it was a shutdown of self expression that I think all children/teenagers need to go through as they develop their identity. I could see how having your music shut down be a significant issue for you, as a person's musical choices often correlates, in my opinion, to their identity as well. HUGS to you! Kit

[Mully]

I may be totally off base here, but I think your T is just being cautious. I totally get how you are worried, but maybe he’s concerned that if you play a song and he doesn’t react in the way you are wanting that it will cause more harm then good.

For me, I appreciate music. Sometimes a song “speaks” to me, but more often then not, it’s background noise. Maybe your T is the same way? In a general sense, he may have been totally fine with playing a song in session. But take a client- you- who he knows feels and thinks about things deeply, and a song is no longer just a song. If it’s important enough for you to bring to session, it’s meaningful. And maybe he just doesn’t want to mess it up?

Oh, and for what it’s worth- my 7 year old daughter can’t figure out how to blow her nose, either. Drives me crazy, as my 5 year old daughter has figured it out, but it’s just one of those quirks that we deal with as parents!

For me, the idea and impulse of wanting to share music with someone to whom you feel a connection is a teenage desire. I am thinking of mixer tapes (or whatever these rebellious youngsters get up to these days with their Spotify playlists) sent to our hearts' desires in the hope that in hearing the music they will also hear our inner self. I think it is a lovely impulse and it reminds me of blossoming identities and passions. I would feel rejected in your position. It seems that your therapist is not welcoming your teenage self and that seems like a missed therapeutic opportunity.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

For me, the idea and impulse of wanting to share music with someone to whom you feel a connection is a teenage desire. I am thinking of mixer tapes (or whatever these rebellious youngsters get up to these days with their Spotify playlists) sent to our hearts' desires in the hope that in hearing the music they will also hear our inner self. I think it is a lovely impulse and it reminds me of blossoming identities and passions. I would feel rejected in your position. It seems that your therapist is not welcoming your teenage self and that seems like a missed therapeutic opportunity.

This makes a lot of sense, especially because the stuff I was saying in reply to Slumber Kitty is from my teenage years. And at times, I do feel that I'm being a teenager with T. With ex-MC, I think I was more of a child. With T at times it feels like I'm acting out the stuff I couldn't as a teen, since I didn't truly rebel against my parents (it was like they wouldn't let me, and I was too caught up in being the good girl...I guess I did some rebellion in college and my early 20s). But with him I'm doing stuff like, "OK I'm going to see another T to talk about you without telling you first" and "I'm gonna tell you the negative things other people have said about you."

And I appreciate you saying you'd also feel rejected in my position. I initially wanted to send him an email Monday night saying something to that effect, then realized he'd probably just say that he didn't tell me I couldn't play it, he's just being careful. I think he wants me to fully understand why I want something when I'm asking for it. But sometimes I *don't* really understand why, and maybe I need to do the thing first to really understand. This feels important to me, but I don't know why. To me, that should signal something.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Mully

I may be totally off base here, but I think your T is just being cautious. I totally get how you are worried, but maybe he’s concerned that if you play a song and he doesn’t react in the way you are wanting that it will cause more harm then good.

For me, I appreciate music. Sometimes a song “speaks” to me, but more often then not, it’s background noise. Maybe your T is the same way? In a general sense, he may have been totally fine with playing a song in session. But take a client- you- who he knows feels and thinks about things deeply, and a song is no longer just a song. If it’s important enough for you to bring to session, it’s meaningful. And maybe he just doesn’t want to mess it up?

Oh, and for what it’s worth- my 7 year old daughter can’t figure out how to blow her nose, either. Drives me crazy, as my 5 year old daughter has figured it out, but it’s just one of those quirks that we deal with as parents!

Thanks, Mully. Yeah, he's said before that music doesn't really do anything for him. So I suspect that lots of people in his real life (maybe clients, too) have tried to get him into music. And maybe they were bothered by his reaction? He has come to understand how sensitive I can be to things he says and does. So if I play something and he's just like, "OK, so that was a song," will it bother me? I guess I was thinking about it, and it's like...even if he's not that into music, presumably he's at least passingly familiar with, say, the Beatles or the Stones. So if I was saying their music really spoke to me, he'd have some concept of what I meant. But here, the bands I'm into, I seriously doubt (unless by some chance his wife, brother, friend, etc. is into them) he'd know. So part of me just wants to be like "Here's what I'm listening to."

It does mean a lot if he's that concerned about messing something like this up. It probably shows he cares more than if he was just like, "Sure, whatever, play what you want." But I'm not even sure that it's about his reaction at all, but just the experience of playing something for him. I don't expect him to "get it." But maybe others have expected that and gotten annoyed or frustrated with him when he didn't?

And glad/sorry you have the same issue with your daughter! D seems to get angry at me when I try to explain, too. Somewhere I read to have a kid blow out a candle with their mouth, then ask them to do the same with their nose, but haven't tried that yet...

[Anne2.0]

For some reason, and my parallel may be completely off, your T's response to being asked to listen to a song with you, reminds me of conversations I've had with a friend or two when they asked me to accompany them to a very intimate medical procedure. I wanted to help in the best way possible, so I asked a bunch of question like "do you want me to come into the examination room with you or wait in the waiting room?" Do you want me to stand by your head? Do you want me to hold your hand? Do you have questions for the doctor you want me to be sure the doctor hears? And so on. I think when the other partner in the relationship wants to help in an awkward and/or new territory, understanding what you need and what you want from them is pretty essential. I tend to run with the theory that most of therapy is relational, where we show the T what kind of partner we are and they show us what kind of effect we have on them. Although I understand you feel rejected, is this really an accurate interpretation of what this interaction really was?

I'm not sure that desiring to share your inner world through a song is very interactional, though. It seems kind of imposing something on someone without being willing to hear his feelings about it. There are times and places for sharing one's inner world, but the recipient ought to have a voice in it. Expecting someone to receive information without being a part of understanding the meaning of it and how it will go seems unfair and one-sided, almost like he doesn't matter in the transaction.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

For some reason, and my parallel may be completely off, your T's response to being asked to listen to a song with you, reminds me of conversations I've had with a friend or two when they asked me to accompany them to a very intimate medical procedure. I wanted to help in the best way possible, so I asked a bunch of question like "do you want me to come into the examination room with you or wait in the waiting room?" Do you want me to stand by your head? Do you want me to hold your hand? Do you have questions for the doctor you want me to be sure the doctor hears? And so on. I think when the other partner in the relationship wants to help in an awkward and/or new territory, understanding what you need and what you want from them is pretty essential. I tend to run with the theory that most of therapy is relational, where we show the T what kind of partner we are and they show us what kind of effect we have on them. Although I understand you feel rejected, is this really an accurate interpretation of what this interaction really was?

I'm not sure that desiring to share your inner world through a song is very interactional, though. It seems kind of imposing something on someone without being willing to hear his feelings about it. There are times and places for sharing one's inner world, but the recipient ought to have a voice in it. Expecting someone to receive information without being a part of understanding the meaning of it and how it will go seems unfair and one-sided, almost like he doesn't matter in the transaction.

Interesting comparison with the medical procedure.

For the second part, I guess part of why I'm sharing it in session is so that we can talk about it, so that I can talk about why it has meaning for me. I'm not just going to play it, then switch to a completely different topic. I guess I don't see this as being so different from, say, my telling him about a dream I had. Where things/symbols may mean something to me, but it's partly on me to explain what the elements mean to me. Or even, say, a childhood memory that's really significant in my head but might seem really random to someone else. Like, "Why does she remember that, above all other memories?" I share something, it opens up a dialogue. If it goes nowhere, we move on.

I partly thought it would help me get in touch with some stuff about ex-MC that I can't quite seem to reach--particularly the more positive memories, which T has said is part of what should come out when i'm further along in the grieving process (to be able to hold onto positive memories along with the sadness). Because some of these songs, I associate with leaving session with him (ex-MC) and feeling all warm and fuzzy. I was starting to connect with some of those feelings the other night, I think, when I was listening to the music. Then there are some I associate more with sadness, with wanting more than I could have with him (I was only planning to play one at this time). So like I'd play something then talk about why it means something to me. Maybe it makes no sense to him, and that's OK. It's trying to tap into other places in my brain, see what comes out.

[Salmon77]

I wrote something in another thread about art not being a great way to communicate, which I stick by... at the same time I understand the urge. Music is important to me and it affects me strongly. Sometimes I talk to my T about specific artists or songs, and he usually hasn't heard of them. Music is important to my T, too, but I don't know many of the artists he likes, either; we just have different tastes. But he often repeats quotes from songs. And in fact I don't like it very much when he does that. Usually I don't really know what he's trying to say and I have to ask him to explain it, and when he does it feels kind of flat and not very interesting, maybe because it's not really his own thought. So I guess I see sharing art or music as using someone else's expression in place of your own expression, when it would probably be better for you to look for your own expression, if that makes sense.

[LonesomeTonight]

Found this article on using music in therapy

[Oxolyric]

Hi LT and all other contributors to your thread
Music is important to me-I play guitar- my therapist also plays bass as an aging blues rocker- I’ve listened to his band on YouTube and find the music a bit loud and dissonant and I know that he’s not a fan of the manic street preachers and Leonard Cohen so I can’t imagine playing something and expecting him to listen and understand why it means something to me when he may be feeling like screaming and leaving the room- it seems I would be placing him between a rock and a hard place- if he was very enthusiastic I might think that we have a shared interest which shifts the relationship in my mind and if he wasn’t then rejection/he doesn’t really care etc .....
On a. Slightly comedic note-I terminated the relationship very painfully and went back to read my records last week taking iPod /headphones with me -uncharged of course! -and he came to check on me while the intro to” creep”was playing - I couldn’t help but say the “I’m a creep I’m a weirdo you’re so ...
special -to which he replied “ can you play that-the chords are really difficult “. ( they’re not) and then “I’m not a weirdo I’m eccentric” - there was connection through the music at that moment but it was not staged and it worked

So LT I understand where you are coming from ,genuinely,but I agree with another poster that you probably won’t get what you need from a one sided almost forced situation

[LonesomeTonight]

Debating whether to play something today (and which thing to play) or to just talk about it. I might see how I feel when I get there. If I did play something, I'd want to do that fairly early in the session, so we could discuss it a bit then move on to other topics if it goes nowhere.

In terms of what to play...do I pick a song that has lots of meaning to me, but if he looked at the lyrics, it would likely completely mystify him, because the main topic of the song isn't connected to what it makes me feel? Or one that also has a fair amount of meaning, but somewhat more obvious/direct lyrics? Or one that has slightly less meaning (in terms of ex-MC), but really obvious/direct lyrics?

ETA: It's not the Beatles, but to draw an analogy from songs more people would be familiar with: Say "I Am the Walrus" or "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" had lots of emotional effect on me. The lyrics don't make much sense, but they affect me for some reason. Versus...uh, "Ob-la-di, Ob-la-da" where the "life goes on" would seem relevant, but maybe not the rest of it? (That's probably not the best example, just something where the verses might not be relevant but chorus is.) Versus something like "Yesterday," which has very obvious lyrics, even if it didn't meant that much to me in relation to this particular situation? Again, I'm NOT talking about these particular songs, and am honestly not much of a Beatles fan (aside from a few particular songs), just trying to pull examples.

[ArtleyWilkins]

How important is this really? I guess I am not understanding now why this is a thing if you didn’t already have a very specific piece in mind for a very specific reason.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

How important is this really? I guess I am not understanding now why this is a thing if you didn’t already have a very specific piece in mind for a very specific reason.

Well, I did have a specific piece in mind, but then started overthinking it (which is sort of the story of my life...)...If last session, he'd just been like, "Sure, go for it," I might have just played it right then, honestly. The main reason I feel it's important is I've come back to the idea of playing music for him a few times over the course of, say, 6 months. I keep thinking about it. So that suggests there's some reason I want to do that, even if it might not turn out to be much of anything.

ETA: I think it was his asking that I print out the lyrics that made me think he might focus on the lyrics quite a bit.

[ArtleyWilkins]

This honestly doesn't seem to be about the music. You seem fixated on this, like by playing the right piece, you are going to get something FROM your therapist out of it. Maybe that's really what is going on here so maybe you just need to explore what you are thinking you'll get from this (which is probably why your therapist questioned you about it; I'm guessing he thinks you don't even realize what you are trying to get out of it and also feels this isn't really about the music).

I'm a musician. If I was going to share a piece with my therapist, I would know exactly why and exactly what piece because it would be about the music and its connection to something very specific in me/my life. I'm not getting that sense from you. I'm getting a "I want to place this music to gain some cosmic connection to my therapist" vibe which I'm afraid you probably won't get and then this will become this several weeks long thing where you analyze why your therapist isn't understanding you or connecting to you or something like that.

It all seems, as someone else mentioned, very teenager-like. Very fantasy-like. Rather than very truly specifically purposeful.

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

This honestly doesn't seem to be about the music. You seem fixated on this, like by playing the right piece, you are going to get something FROM your therapist out of it. Maybe that's really what is going on here so maybe you just need to explore what you are thinking you'll get from this (which is probably why your therapist questioned you about it; I'm guessing he thinks you don't even realize what you are trying to get out of it and also feels this isn't really about the music).

I'm a musician. If I was going to share a piece with my therapist, I would know exactly why and exactly what piece because it would be about the music and its connection to something very specific in me/my life. I'm not getting that sense from you. I'm getting a "I want to place this music to gain some cosmic connection to my therapist" vibe which I'm afraid you probably won't get and then this will become this several weeks long thing where you analyze why your therapist isn't understanding you or connecting to you or something like that.

It all seems, as someone else mentioned, very teenager-like. Very fantasy-like. Rather than very truly specifically purposeful.

I was the someone else who made the teenage reference. I would like to clarify that I made that reference with no negative judgement attached to it. Exploring this teenage desire (if that is what it is) could be a fruitful bit of work; I don't like the implication that something "teenager-like" is something immature or a piece of nonsense frippery. Exploring our teenage self can be a way of accessing knowledge about our maturation, sexuality, passions, peer-led behaviours, etc - all kinds of really important factors which show in our adulthood.

Also, you describe how you would work with music in therapy and that seems to suit you. LT can aim to work with music in her own way. Being a musician does not give you special insight into the therapeutic benefit of including music in the therapy room, in the same way as art therapy is not the reserve of artists.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

I was the someone else who made the teenage reference. I would like to clarify that I made that reference with no negative judgement attached to it. Exploring this teenage desire (if that is what it is) could be a fruitful bit of work; I don't like the implication that something "teenager-like" is something immature or a piece of nonsense frippery. Exploring our teenage self can be a way of accessing knowledge about our maturation, sexuality, passions, peer-led behaviours, etc - all kinds of really important factors which show in our adulthood.

Also, you describe how you would work with music in therapy and that seems to suit you. LT can aim to work with music in her own way. Being a musician does not give you special insight into the therapeutic benefit of including music in the therapy room, in the same way as art therapy is not the reserve of artists.

Thanks for clarifying that--I didn't really see it as immature or "frippery" (love that word!) I think it could be valuable to examine. And one of Dr. T's focus areas in therapy is teenagers, actually. So maybe he's good at speaking to that part of me? I do feel my teen side comes out more with him, while ex-MC was more my child side. I'm not sure if that might just suggest a greater maturation in therapy or something else about the relationship (or both). Maybe it means that I need to talk about teen LT more in there? If music is a path to getting there, I think it could help. Tapping into my teenage self who published a fanzine (for a different band).

[ArtleyWilkins]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

I was the someone else who made the teenage reference. I would like to clarify that I made that reference with no negative judgement attached to it. Exploring this teenage desire (if that is what it is) could be a fruitful bit of work; I don't like the implication that something "teenager-like" is something immature or a piece of nonsense frippery. Exploring our teenage self can be a way of accessing knowledge about our maturation, sexuality, passions, peer-led behaviours, etc - all kinds of really important factors which show in our adulthood.

Also, you describe how you would work with music in therapy and that seems to suit you. LT can aim to work with music in her own way. Being a musician does not give you special insight into the therapeutic benefit of including music in the therapy room, in the same way as art therapy is not the reserve of artists.

Any inference of negativity is solely yours. I am simply saying that this appears to really not be about the music and LT probably needs to explore that, which is also what her therapist seems to have honed in on. Save your judgment (ironically) for someone else.

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

Any inference of negativity is solely yours. I am simply saying that this appears to really not be about the music and LT probably needs to explore that, which is also what her therapist seems to have honed in on. Save your judgment (ironically) for someone else.

I am disagreeing with your description that playing music is not "very truly specifically purposeful". This describes the action as holding little to no value (that's a negative in most people's books). I am not judging you, I am disagreeing with you.

[circlesincircles]

I hope that whatever you decide goes well today, LT. Skimming through your thread, I'm wondering how much of it is about your T's reaction to the music vs. your reaction to it in his presence. It sounds mostly like a way of eliciting emotion for you, and his reaction to the actual content of the song doesn't have to be all that important. Being able to process what comes up for you in response to the song, in an immediate way, seems like what you're trying to achieve.

ETA: Not to dismiss the importance of what it's like for you to share it with him. But again, I think that's something you can process that's independent of his reaction to the music.

[susannahsays]

I'm a little bit uneasy for you if you go in with the plan of just playing a song because you've been thinking about it for a long time - and just want to do it and see what happens. The reason I feel this is because I think there is a risk that it will not achieve whatever it is you're hoping for (I realize you don't know what that is), and that will trigger things in some way. I am under the same impression as Artley regarding your possible motive/hope behind sharing a song. Of course, it might be something else entirely, but I think if you are hoping for connection through the music, you will probably be disappointed. I think I read on the couch that this could be some way of communicating something you don't have the words for. The thing about that is music is such a personal thing, and people can have completely different reactions. Plus, your therapist isn't big on music. It seems like you might be trying to communicate something in a language he won't understand. I'm not especially worried about him requesting the lyrics, as he's right that it can be very difficult to tell what musicians are saying. But that does seem to indicate that you're going to have to put what the song means to you in words. Even if you don't need him to feel what you feel when listening to a song, I do assume you want him to know what you feel. So if you're going to do this, I would at least try to identify those feelings beforehand.

[goatee]

I also think it’s perfectly okay to feel you have a need to do something in general (play music for your T and share it with him) and yet not know exactly what that looks like (what song to play first as you step into doing this). I’ve definitely had that happen with me with my T- not with music specifically but with other needs I’ve had. I hope it all goes well for you today- fingers crossed.

Originally Posted by susannahsays

I'm a little bit uneasy for you if you go in with the plan of just playing a song because you've been thinking about it for a long time - and just want to do it and see what happens. The reason I feel this is because I think there is a risk that it will not achieve whatever it is you're hoping for (I realize you don't know what that is), and that will trigger things in some way. I am under the same impression as Artley regarding your possible motive/hope behind sharing a song. Of course, it might be something else entirely, but I think if you are hoping for connection through the music, you will probably be disappointed. I think I read on the couch that this could be some way of communicating something you don't have the words for. The thing about that is music is such a personal thing, and people can have completely different reactions. Plus, your therapist isn't big on music. It seems like you might be trying to communicate something in a language he won't understand. I'm not especially worried about him requesting the lyrics, as he's right that it can be very difficult to tell what musicians are saying. But that does seem to indicate that you're going to have to put what the song means to you in words. Even if you don't need him to feel what you feel when listening to a song, I do assume you want him to know what you feel. So if you're going to do this, I would at least try to identify those feelings beforehand.

I agree with this. I think it is an uneasy thing to do and I feel awkward and ungainly reading about the prospect of LT doing it. Teenage feelings. I also think this could be part of the work - exploring what it is to be misunderstood, to not be able to share an inner experience, to have the mixer tape go unplayed by your crush. The heartbreak! It's hard and it's potentially embarrassing, but it's a lovely piece of work to come out of something as seemingly innocuous as wanting to play a song in therapy.

[Elio]

I often want to just do something in session without talking about it. For me, for some reason the act of talking about it starts to bring out feelings that it's a bad thing to want to do it or I'm some how or some reason stupid for liking it ... thinking it's important to me. It's like the discussion, analyzing, intellectualizing the whatever, results in it feeling judged. I haven't gotten to why this is for me. I've only gotten to recognizing it is there.

There is the potential for disappointment, there is also the potential for words to be found to describe the feelings. It was also nice to have my T ask me questions about the music -- "showing interest in something I like". So... risk/reward.