[SlumberKitty]

I don't know. It's your money and your time. If you want to talk about the relationship with your T or with your former Ex-Dr T. then I think that's fine. Only you know what you need to talk about. If you are stuck your T (whoever that ends up being) may have some suggestions, but you are the expert on you.

[SlumberKitty]

Oh and I want to add, I don't think former Ex-Dr T. should say whether or not to talk about him too much. What's too much? What difference would it make to him? A different T may not have the same difficulties as he did hearing about a previous T. I spent time talking about how much I miss former T with current T and with T3. Granted, not tons of time, but still, time.

[atisketatasket]

LT—I think susannah is on to something when she says he sounds like he was getting fed up with constantly having to prove he cared. I’ve been there with 2ex (not comparing you two otherwise, nothing alike). It is hell on the person having to prove they care. I doubt it’s as hellish for a therapist who’s less personally involved, but still frustrating.

And I am wondering if that dynamic exists in your personal relationships: people feeling they have to prove they care. Tbh, it does sound like it from a few relationships you’ve described on here. Not because you are doomed to be difficult or a bad person or whatever, but just because of the way you present yourself to them. If that’s right, I think it’s a dynamic you might want to work on changing with the next therapist.

As for blame or fault, this is a situation where it’s maybe better to consider responsibility and try to identify your own, so you can learn from it.

[LonesomeTonight]

Thanks for all the comments and support. I'll add more later, but just wanted to say I'm slightly torn as to how much to bring up to the new T regarding this one. I brought up a tiny bit (like 5 min of a 90-min intake session) Wednesday. But I don't want M to be concerned I'll have all these same issues with him. At the same time, I'd rather know earlier than later how he feels about the role of a T for a client. But I feel weird saying something like, "Are you willing to say to clients that you care about them?" But I talked to K about that yesterday, and she came right out and said she cares about me, though she knows she has no real control over what I do. And she would say that to any client. But (this is a record number of "buts" in a post, I think), it may also be different for a female T saying that to a heterosexual female client vs. a male T saying that to a female. Like less worry about it potentially being misconstrued. K did give me some good language to use in talking to M, like saying how transference tends to come up for me, but that I also understand that he has boundaries. She said the word "boundaries" suggests he doesn't need to be concerned.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

LT—I think susannah is on to something when she says he sounds like he was getting fed up with constantly having to prove he cared. I’ve been there with 2ex (not comparing you two otherwise, nothing alike). It is hell on the person having to prove they care. I doubt it’s as hellish for a therapist who’s less personally involved, but still frustrating.

And I am wondering if that dynamic exists in your personal relationships: people feeling they have to prove they care. Tbh, it does sound like it from a few relationships you’ve described on here. Not because you are doomed to be difficult or a bad person or whatever, but just because of the way you present yourself to them. If that’s right, I think it’s a dynamic you might want to work on changing with the next therapist.

As for blame or fault, this is a situation where it’s maybe better to consider responsibility and try to identify your own, so you can learn from it.

Replying quickly to this...it's a good question, whether that plays out in other relationships. But I don't feel I do that with any friends, really. (I just confirmed with one, and she doesn't think I do at all--and she's someone who'd be honest with me!) Maybe a little with H at times? But I think it's really more an authority figure thing. And mostly male authority figures--I don't think I looked for stuff from ex-T (the woman) so much to prove she cared.

I think the thing with blame and fault is, I'm trying desperately to figure out what happened to make the relationship go so south so quickly (we had our issues and conflicts, but it feels the last 6 weeks or so it was in a tailspin). And worrying I'm doomed with the T I just started seeing. I certainly intend to limit outside contact with him (the fact that he uses phone in certain circumstances but doesn't like to use email should help). As that's a big part of what led to conflict with ex-Dr.T and I guess with ex-MC as well.

I do think in many ways, ex-Dr.T and I were just a bad fit, and I kept just trying to convince myself that I should make it work. I know I certainly played a role in that. But I also don't want to be in a place where I'm afraid to express needs/wants to a T because I'm worried I'm too needy. I think I just need to be more accepting of a "no."

[JaneTennison1]

When the Ex T 1 relationship went to he11 I saw ex T 2, Ex T 2 Did not like me talking about ex T 1. I felt ashamed for wanting to talk about it. Current T told me ex T 1 was always welcome in the room with us as a topic. After about 2 or 3 sessions I was done talking about it. That is what I hope for you. You seem to have a tendency to focus on the relationship and it sounds like a distraction.

You Ex Dr T didn't behave in a great way but I also wonder how much was that he refused to take away your shame for drinking, he refused to be there or "care" and that witholding seems to make you stress more. I know that having a caring T with good boundaries helps so much so I guess I hope you don't go for someone with poor boundaries like ex MC or push and push until it creates a huge problem. I don't think he is wrong in some of his assessment but he sounds super frustrated and annoyed. This does not create anything healthy for you.

He also sounds arrogant like he believes others can't help you. and he knows what you need. Meh I don't like when men think they know what someone needs, or anyone actually. I'm glad you spent time talking about other things, not to protect him but because you are deserving of the help you need. I hope you find someone who can help.

[JaneTennison1]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I think the thing with blame and fault is, I'm trying desperately to figure out what happened to make the relationship go so south so quickly (we had our issues and conflicts, but it feels the last 6 weeks or so it was in a tailspin). And worrying I'm doomed with the T I just started seeing. I certainly intend to limit outside contact with him (the fact that he uses phone in certain circumstances but doesn't like to use email should help). As that's a big part of what led to conflict with ex-Dr.T and I guess with ex-MC as well.

I know outside contact is great for some but, for me, it creates drama and conflict. My current T is very clear and she will sometimes write a line or two but mostly it is just "I am thinking of you, i will see you on Monday at 4pm" or something like that. I know what I will get. We have emailed maybe 4 times? Text is mostly it. Sometimes I leave a voicemail and we will discuss it next session.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Replying quickly to this...it's a good question, whether that plays out in other relationships. But I don't feel I do that with any friends, really. (I just confirmed with one, and she doesn't think I do at all--and she's someone who'd be honest with me!) Maybe a little with H at times? But I think it's really more an authority figure thing. And mostly male authority figures--I don't think I looked for stuff from ex-T (the woman) so much to prove she cared.

I think the thing with blame and fault is, I'm trying desperately to figure out what happened to make the relationship go so south so quickly (we had our issues and conflicts, but it feels the last 6 weeks or so it was in a tailspin). And worrying I'm doomed with the T I just started seeing. I certainly intend to limit outside contact with him (the fact that he uses phone in certain circumstances but doesn't like to use email should help). As that's a big part of what led to conflict with ex-Dr.T and I guess with ex-MC as well.

I do think in many ways, ex-Dr.T and I were just a bad fit, and I kept just trying to convince myself that I should make it work. I know I certainly played a role in that. But I also don't want to be in a place where I'm afraid to express needs/wants to a T because I'm worried I'm too needy. I think I just need to be more accepting of a "no."

Okay, so I guess this may be just me, but I am confused.

1. Why are therapists authority figures?
2. Why not try a female therapist if the issue is male authority figures?
3. There don’t seem to be any male authority figures in your life. So why do you seek them out in therapy?
4. If your father counts as a male authority figure to you and is still alive, why not try to work things out with him instead of replaying them with therapists?

I just feel like your current therapy approach is too complicated and stressful for you.

[SalingerEsme]

I'm impressed with how you answered the need to find your center away from Dr. T so firmly and resolutely, and how you were able to take control and have a voice. I have struggled in the quicksand of a similarish dilemma for months( since Mother's Day ), and still approach the situation like it is a tangled ball of yarn that needs to be given immense time. Even Dr. T's suspicion you planned to end it rather than have him give ideas about how to go on together was a quick reversal from his former position that you needed him more than anyone else in your life, and couldn't survive without him. I personally liked many facets of Dr. T for you- he seemed like a straight shooter, and a "guy's guy" with a sensitive streak, and that he was invested in your progress, truly. He stretched himself to meet you where you were, and unlike others I do not believe he grew resentful or tired of this, nor even that he thinks you are manipulative. I think he was quite worried about you and was leaving town that same day, and was torn and got defensive. Right there though, was an impasse bc he wasn't willing to strive for the self awareness to intervene. Ultimately that was his job, his office, his responsibility to set the boundaries where he could be functional. He seemed to give you feedback about the parameters , and you followed the guidelines given. I think in many ways he had squishier boundaries than ex MC for all the talk of having tougher ones. He did extra sessions whenever asked, and he put a lot of effort into email and he lowered his fee for you. I suspect his pride is wounded, or his ego(?), or even a nicer part like his feelings are hurt, that he tried hard in his fashion. I am sure he knows that to another T, his boundaries are going to seem as loose to them as ex MC's did to him. I hate that relationships can go sour as quickly as milk sometimes. I also think you could go back to Dr. T, and he would again work hard with you and mean it. My big issue with him is that he is entitled- he is just vested in being the authority figure, discusses a world view that is very conventional, and he isn't very sophisticated in his modality. I think if challenged by Team PC, his knowledge of anything psychodynamic or psychoanalytical would play in comparison. There is a good place for a steady caring rock solid person in the T world, and I do think Dr. T was that until now he sunk his own battleship by getting so, so defensive and untheraputic. The interesting thing is how YOU seem over it more than he does . Like you just realized he isn't going to take you where you need to go, no matter how hard he tries.?

[Salmon77]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks for all the comments and support. I'll add more later, but just wanted to say I'm slightly torn as to how much to bring up to the new T regarding this one. I brought up a tiny bit (like 5 min of a 90-min intake session) Wednesday. But I don't want M to be concerned I'll have all these same issues with him. At the same time, I'd rather know earlier than later how he feels about the role of a T for a client. But I feel weird saying something like, "Are you willing to say to clients that you care about them?" But I talked to K about that yesterday, and she came right out and said she cares about me, though she knows she has no real control over what I do. And she would say that to any client. But (this is a record number of "buts" in a post, I think), it may also be different for a female T saying that to a heterosexual female client vs. a male T saying that to a female. Like less worry about it potentially being misconstrued. K did give me some good language to use in talking to M, like saying how transference tends to come up for me, but that I also understand that he has boundaries. She said the word "boundaries" suggests he doesn't need to be concerned.

For me, part of the purpose of therapy is to talk honestly about what's really on your mind and hash it out as much as you need to, in whatever terms work for you. Seems really strange to me that K would give you "good language" for the new guy. Is it really helpful to script this stuff in advance? Is it helpful to downplay something that's a big issue for you and bound to come up again anyway?

[ScarletPimpernel]

LT - Remember when ex-T left me? T never told me to not talk about ex-T. In fact, not only did she split our initial session half about intake and half about ex-T, but she told me anytime I wanted to talk about ex-T I could. And I still can even with L. Hell, I can talk to L about T and to T about L. There are no limits of what I can and can't talk about and for how long either. I think I talked to T about ex-T for almost 2 years straight. And thanks to her for doing that, I'm much better off.

If a T is going to limit you on what you can and cannot talk about (minus personal information about them) then that's a red flag. You should be able to talk about whatever and whoever you need to so long as it aids in your healing. And I think being in a 2 year relationship with Dr. T requires processing what happened.

[nottrustin]

I would struggle with not being able to talk abou T with EMDR T. I have said a couple if times I feel bad bringing up T and EMDR T has said T is always welcome in the room.... not sure exactly what that means.

[ElectricManatee]

I started seeing a new T temporarily at the beginning of the summer after my long-term T and I hit a rupture that felt like gridlock (partially about boundaries, partially not). I wanted to work things through with my T, but suddenly she seemed rigid and uncaring, not sensitive and kind like she did before. It was so very clear to me that the change in our relationship was a result of my transference/trauma triggers, but we just couldn't get through it without me having uncharacteristically huge reactions.

Possible trigger:

including increasingly intense urges to kill myself

My T is pretty solid on working with the therapeutic relationship in a productive way, so I can see where Dr. T would be way, way out of his league if this kind of thing popped up. It's rough stuff. Several of the things he has said seem quite harsh and unhelpful, and I am impressed with how clearly you seem to recognize that you feel ready to move on.

I found a second T who used to be a colleague of my long-term T, and they consulted with each other early on. Maybe I'm a triangulator too, but it has been helpful to have the newer T to unpack what is my "stuff" and what likely resulted from missteps by long-term T. I don't think that focusing on the therapeutic relationship is always a distraction because often the things that happen between us are clearly about me, but that's a specific way of working on issues and will not apply to every therapeutic relationship.

Anyway, all this is to say that I think you should put all your cards on the table with the new T. I have been really explicit with new T about what happened with long-term T, how it fits into my relationship history/patterns, and what I want to work on. New T has been really validating, which helped me see how strongly shame and feelings of defectiveness had been activated. (New T and I have done some processing of my relationship with long-term T, are doing EMDR now, and then hopefully I can go back to long-term T and finish working things through with her.)

It seems likely that you will replay dynamics from your past (we all do!) and showing the new T that you are going into it with awareness, curiosity, and a willingness to change could be really important to making sure you're selecting the right therapist for the job. Try to find ways to work with your patterns, not against them.

[stopdog]

This guy didn't try to forbid LT from talking about him at all - it sounds more like he is trying to get LT to focus on her problems rather than her therapists. LT doesn't have to do so, but it does seem like a great deal of time is focused on the the old therapists or the new therapists rather than whatever LT wants in her own life.
I also think he has a point about what you do with with therapists. In my opinion, the pattern has been done with the female therapist (on that one the marriage counselor was the hero), then he set a boundary and so this male therapist became the hero, and then he set a boundary and LT went to the woman who is being interpreted as agreeing with LT (she may or may not be - but to me - that is not the point). I understand why he thinks the behavior was manipulative - it might be unconscious, but I would read as manipulative and controlling too. I understand why the guy said he could never assure enough - it always lead to wanting more. Finding a new therapist is not a big deal, I don't think, but the pattern as to what sends you out looking for a new one, to me, seems the same.

[ScarletPimpernel]

If any of my Ts thought I was being manipulated for having SUI and SH thoughts... I wouldn't be where I'm at now. Now I understand them and can work with them. I'm honest with my Ts about them and none has ever overreacted or told me I'm being manipulative. They're there as a function. They're there to be protective. It's not manipulative in any way unless the person was lying about the thoughts. I don't see anyone on here saying to others with these thoughts that they're being manipulative. Dr. T was all into himself imo and didn't know what he was doing. I don't know how he is a T.

[stopdog]

I would not have hired the guy and I never liked him from the description of him. But I don't see that what he said was out of the realm of conceivability.
Whether someone wants a psychodynamic one or one who does email or what ever - is up to them. Changing therapists is not a big deal in my opinion. I think therapists are a dime a dozen. All I am saying is I understand why he said what is reported that he said.

[atisketatasket]

The therapist wasn’t objecting to the thoughts of SUI and SH, he was objecting to the context of their expression—in emails that were also trying to get him say things he didn’t want to. I understand why he felt that as manipulation or feeling trapped.

That said, LT is probably well rid of him.

[susannahsays]

My objection to him saying that she should avoid any belabored review of their relationship with subsequent therapists was that it did not sound like it was intended in a spirit of helpfulness. The evidence for this is in the comment he made about the future therapist wondering why LT was there and about him having been frustrated over her discussing ex-MC so much (and who is he to be frustrated by that, anyway?). Those two comments were unnecessary. He of all people is well aware that LT worries about what people are thinking and I think it was a roundabout way of suggesting not only did he have thoughts he may have denied to her face, but that future therapists will do the same thing. I think it was an exploitation of LT's insecurity. Again, those claims were likely true, but the way they were made and the timing doesn't reflect well on him because it was done maliciously, in my opinion.

Yes, it is well worth considering all the time that has been invested discussing therapists and therapeutic relationships and what, if anything, is gained by that. But I don't think that was the motivation behind his words. That was an afterthought.

[susannahsays]

Personally, I don't mind if the therapist characterizes me or my actions as manipulative if it's accurate. I am well aware that I have a manipulative streak and while I'm not proud of it, I do own it and take responsibility for when I am manipulative. Sometimes I've even gone in and told her I was being manipulative, because it's something that troubles me. Sometimes I don't intend to be manipulative or don't realize that's what I'm doing at the time, and sometimes I do. Either way, it counts.

I guess it's kind of contradictory, being direct about a tendency towards manipulation. But I'm hoping that owning up to it will help somehow.

[blackocean]

talking about this MC guy seems really important to me. maybe the most important conversation. how he could say that frustrated him is beyond me. it sounds like you loved (or "loved") the MC and from your posts it seems that he offered a safe and comforting place for younger parts of you and separating from him was extremely difficult. that you got so enmeshed w/ him suggests you did not have safety and comfort as a child and/or do not have it now, two important things to explore. you don't feel totally safe and comforted now and don't have the innate coping skills (supposed to be learned in healthy childhoods) to create it for yourself so when certain paternal figures offer it you hang on to it for dear life and fantasize about it constantly. I'm no therapist but to me a desire that strong, that you would be talking abuot him so much to be "frustrating," means this was an extremely signficant thing to explore and follow to its sources. both paternal and romantic both. what is that fantasy you were engaging and why was it so strong with MC in comparison to Dr T? yes his boundaries seem poor but you felt so good with his attention that you didn't want to ever let go and I don't like that he was so dismissive of it because it seemed to cause you a lot of pain and suffering.

[ScarletPimpernel]

I agree that people can be manipulative. I also am the type to own up to my own manipulation. I've actually learned to call myself out on it. Even my last email to L I admitted that I wanted to create drama in order to keep up the higher intensity of both the relationship and of the support. But I didn't act on it.

I still don't see how having thoughts and expressing thoughts in emails equals manipulative. I do it all the time. Was LT's email manipulative? I'm not going to judge that. But expressing her thoughts and feelings in an email context, even in an email that might be manipulative, does not mean that that part was manipulative. And Dr. T couldn't see that. Instead he generalized the whole email, got defensive, and instead of helping LT, sort of offended her by labeling the behaviour in a negative way. Why couldn't Dr. T, in return, talk about what LT is experiencing. Why did it have to be about him. A good T will not put themselves into the mix. They should know what their own issues are and keep that out of the relationship. And when it does enter the relationship, he should have owned up to it and not gotten defensive.

[Echos Myron redux]

I haven't read all the responses, but I saw some people saying you shouldn't talk about Dr T "too much". Also a distinction between Dr T stuff and "your issues". LT, what happened with Dr T IS your issues. You have repeating relational trauma with therapists and this is exactly something to be discussed in therapy for however long it takes. It was abundantly clear from the start that DrT didnt see the value in talking about MC and it doesnt surprise me his saying that now. In fact his discomfort with the discussion is probably part of why little progress has been made on this pattern, and his lack of awareness has played a role in its repetition. He has consistently shown that work on the relationship isn't his thing. So why would work on the previous relationship have any meaning or value to him. You have to remember the advice he gave you comes from a particular modality viewpoint that rejects the value of the therapeutic relationship in the work. He is overlaying your needs with a) his own opinion and b) very likely his own discomfort with being discussed by you. He doesnt get to control what you say in your new therapy. Dont let him influence it. When you are talking about your previous therapy, in my view, you are getting to the very heart of your issues, not neglecting them, because therapy, for many people is a microcosm of what goes on outside therapy. Examining the relational dynamics in therapy can be rich and healing work. Besides which, you are hurting right now and you need to go to therapy to talk about the things that are hurting. Dont put any restrictions on what you "should" be talking about. Trust yourself. You will talk less and less about DrT as time progresses because the talking will be healing (assuming this therapist doesn't behave like DrT did).

I just want to say, when I went to T, I talked about T1 pretty consistently for eighteen months. EIGHTEEN MONTHS. I rarely mention him now but I needed that processing time. It was very healing and I think saved me from repeating the same pattern again. Also, my T heard about the things that were difficult for me with T1 and made damn sure not to repeat them. He showed sensitivity and understanding, and that's why the outcome was different. This is why I have been saying for so long that DrT is not right for you. His style absolutely does not suit someone with repeating relational trauma. I really hope this new one provides sensitivity to your needs, explicit boundaries that don't randomly change for no reason, an understanding of attachment and as much space as you need to discuss DrT.

[SummerTime12]

I really believe you’ll find the right T for you, LT. I don’t know exactly how to put this into words, but I feel what you want and need is not so complicated as it has been made to seem. You want a t who will care about you and tell you that they care. That’s not a lot to ask and to me, doesn’t indicate that you’re asking for more and more and won’t be satisfied. I think the only reason you asked for certain acts from ex dr. T was because he wouldn’t just say the damn words even though he did care.

I am also one to want reassurance that my T cares. He has told me many times that he does, and also shows it in different ways. He would never hesitate to say it, like if I asked him “do you care about me?” He would say “yes” and elaborate, and then he’d ask the questions about why I asked and all that good stuff. To refuse to answer just feels like playing some sort of weird power struggle game and doesn’t seem therapeutic. There are many times my t says things that could be taken 2 ways—one way indicating he cares and the other way indicating he doesn’t—and during those times, I am able to reassure myself that he meant it in a good way and still cares. But I’m only able to provide myself with that reassurance because he so willingly expresses his care at other times and doesn’t hold back just because he can. I know if I ask him he will tell me what he feels, and therefore I don’t feel the constant need to ask him for proof. Idk if any of this made sense.. I feel like I had a specific concept or thought in my mind but couldn’t word it properly.

[Lemoncake]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

But (this is a record number of "buts" in a post, I think), it may also be different for a female T saying that to a heterosexual female client vs. a male T saying that to a female. Like less worry about it potentially being misconstrued. K did give me some good language to use in talking to M, like saying how transference tends to come up for me, but that I also understand that he has boundaries. She said the word "boundaries" suggests he doesn't need to be concerned.

R has told me more times than I can remember that he cares about me.
It's just something that is and I think it's perfectly okay asking M whatever questions you have without thinking it can all be twisted. A T with attachment training will get it.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

I think not discussing other relationships with therapists or being careful with wording so a new T doesn't get scared is the wrong way to go. If it were me, I'd rather figure out early that a T is uncomfortable with me getting attached and wanting to discuss our relationship at lengths. The way I act with my T is similar to how I do with other people. Though with my T, it's far more pronounced than with other people and he definitely gets a far worse version of me than most others. Sometimes he has to listen to things that are almost certainly uncomfortable for him, for example I'm pretty sure he'd rather not discuss his own death for an hour. But to me it's something important and I need to be able to talk through such things. If a T can't handle that, it wouldn't be the right T for me.

Similarly with this new guy. Either you censor yourself for all of your sessions, in that case I'd see it as a waste of money. In addition, it'd probably not work, at some point there's gonna be something about the relationship that needs discussing, unless you do something like pure CBT maybe. Or you are up front about having had some issues with other Ts. That way a new guy isn't surprised when it happens and you can tell whether working through such problems would even be an option.