[Lrad123]

Does young = bad? I know my therapist would never come out and say that, but that’s what it feels like. He has said my desire for email responses from him is “young” and he has chosen not to reply to my emails, so it must be a bad thing, right? That’s the message I’m getting. It all feels crummy because (as I’ve said for the jillionth time) I’m pretty self sufficient and don’t need a lot from others, so this weird desire to keep wanting email responses from him is just embarrassing. Technically I know I don’t need it to get by in life, but it feels nice. And it feels shameful because I don’t think I ask for much at all, yet I’ve asked for that and he has said no. I understand that some of my earlier emails got emotional and angry (which is out of character for me) and he wanted to bring emotions into the room, but what about a brief email saying something nice? He used to respond with brief phrases like, “Those are all great thoughts,” and, “I look forward to talking to you on Wednesday.” What’s so wrong with that? It seems harmless to me. About a month ago I asked him for one of these types of one-liner emails and he said it made him smile, but he did not send a reply. I know I’m like a broken record with the email saga, but I can’t help myself. How do I get past this?

[feileacan]

No, I don't think young = bad and I haven't got the impression that your T thinks that way. My understanding is that he stopped responding because he felt it does not help your treatment and that's his ultimate goal - to help you the best he can.

How do you get past it? I know only one way - talking about it as many times, as often and as long as things start making sense. This is the essence of the therapy work and it takes as long as it takes.

[nottrustin]

EMDR T and I have been discussing the young part. Like you I am very self sufficient but at times I feel like a child for needing things but then also knowing that I don't. She believes there is a part if me that is emotionally stuck as a child that carries a it of hurt. Wonder if that is what what your T means.

About emails I wish I had advice for you. I went from a T I used email to contact her whenever needed to one that doesnt do email at all. Here reasons are the lack of security as we ss fearing clients wo express SU thoughts through emai and she only checks her email every few days. It has been s very difficult transition.

[toomanycats]

I don't think young = bad, and I don't think wanting email responses = young OR bad. I don't know anyone of any age who enjoys reaching out and not receiving a response.

You’re asking for a connection between sessions. I don’t think anything is wrong with that, nor do I necessarily think it’s young. It’s extremely hard to have a strong connection with someone in a session and be cut off the rest of the time. I think it’s an independently hurtful dynamic but know others may disagree. That’s something I’ve always struggled with re. therapy, even WITH between-session support.

I don’t have a solution but know how you feel!

[ElectricManatee]

My T has mentioned before that certain things with me felt like they come from a young place. It's usually when I'm feeling really vulnerable and upset. I think she thinks that there are, like, pieces of me frozen in the past because of emotional abuse/neglect from when I was a small child. She seems to think those are the most delicate, wounded aspects of me, not that there is anything bad about them.

I could see where wanting email replies could come from a young place, like wanting to be seen and heard and validated when you need it (which is what a kid would want), not waiting until your allotted session time (a type of delayed gratification that only an adult could manage).

I can see where refusing to reply to your emails could help bring your feelings out more in session. There is the whole school of thought that therapists should be withholding and distant in order to draw out transferential feelings. I have no doubt it would be effective, but it would be too harsh and potential re-traumatizing for me, if I were to be ignored like that. My T responds to basically all of my emails and most of my other reasonable requests, which is helping me learn how to ask for what I need and to feel like I deserve help when I feel crummy. This bleeds over into my other relationships and enriches them.

So I don't think you're doing anything wrong, and I don't think your T is doing anything wrong. Ultimately it is just a question of whether he is working in a way that's helpful for you, and nobody here can figure that out for you. I have had the experience of being really, really stuck over a particular issue with my therapist and then suddenly resolving it (for the moment, at least!). But I also understand the urge to end things if it really doesn't feel like you can get what you need from him. There really isn't a right answer here, just what works for you.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by Lrad123

Does young = bad? I know my therapist would never come out and say that, but that’s what it feels like. He has said my desire for email responses from him is “young” and he has chosen not to reply to my emails, so it must be a bad thing, right? That’s the message I’m getting. It all feels crummy because (as I’ve said for the jillionth time) I’m pretty self sufficient and don’t need a lot from others, so this weird desire to keep wanting email responses from him is just embarrassing. Technically I know I don’t need it to get by in life, but it feels nice. And it feels shameful because I don’t think I ask for much at all, yet I’ve asked for that and he has said no. I understand that some of my earlier emails got emotional and angry (which is out of character for me) and he wanted to bring emotions into the room, but what about a brief email saying something nice? He used to respond with brief phrases like, “Those are all great thoughts,” and, “I look forward to talking to you on Wednesday.” What’s so wrong with that? It seems harmless to me. About a month ago I asked him for one of these types of one-liner emails and he said it made him smile, but he did not send a reply. I know I’m like a broken record with the email saga, but I can’t help myself. How do I get past this?

I think the "message [you] are getting" is coming from your internal world and not your therapist. Shame is a sticky widget and the traditional understanding of it is we feel shame for "who we are" as opposed to "what we've done" (guilt). Thinking about that distinction has been helpful for me.

I think if you open up your willingness to consider thinking about your therapist's refusal to reply to your emails, which includes accepting what he says about it at face value and which, IIRC correctly, you agree has actually happened -- you have been able to access "young" emotions more readily in therapy. So your therapist has actually said the reason for his choosing not to reply to your emails is to facilitate something important (emotions) happening in session. He has not said you are "bad" for wanting an email response and he has not said that the perhaps underlying emotion, which comes from a "young" place, is bad. Those are your interpretations and probably come partly from some kind of distorted thinking about what it means to have needs (as opposed to being so self sufficient and independent, which you've said about 10,000 times is not who you are).

There's a ton of stuff that seems possibly related to this issue for you, but I don't think you can experience it if you hold on so tightly to your preferred way of thinking about yourself and what this issue is actually about. Open your mind-- and at least it seems to me that you have a fine one infinitely capable of alternative ways of thinking-- ask yourself questions rather than narrowly defining this experience.

I do resonate with the experience of shame related to the label of "young," and I can precisely recall a moment where my T characterized the way I was talking about a grown-up experience of pain. It was more than 5 years ago.
"That comes from a young place of understanding," he said. And I had said this exact thing to my actual doctor. My face flushed with such warmth I thought I was beet red, which through my dark olive skin tone, takes some effort. Something really familiar ("I am bad") stuck with me for some time. For me, as anyone reading this might have guessed, the shame was attached to thinking I was bad for being physically hurt by abuse, which is super common for CSA survivors. I had tapped into my childhood experience with pain and being hurt meant I deserved it, that it was punishment for something I did wrong. I thought I'd already resolved my self-blame for what had been done to me. It is often true for me that childhood stuff is triggered by adult events and experiences in unexpected ways.

So if I try to put myself in your shoes (which I am sure I will do very imperfectly, but I hope something might be useful anyway), I would ask myself, "Why feel shame when I ask for help and it is refused?" This is how I would characterize your email, that you are asking for something that will help you-- as opposed to a reply per se. Any current situations in your adult life where you've asked for help outside therapy and you've been refused? Or have you constructed your life in such a way (something I identify with) so that you just don't simply ask for help? When I was married, I pretty much did everything myself, which greatly benefitted my spouse, rather than ask him for "help" with the baby or the house or the scheduling or even to make the time to talk to me about something that might be difficult. He was great at talking about anything that didn't personally affect him but somehow was super busy when it was about him When he became ill and people wanted to help, so many people said something like "Anne, you are a hard person to help. Let me do something for you." I had to learn how to let people help me. And sometimes I'd ask, and they would say they couldn't, and I'd be all like but I hardly ask for anything and then I do and look what happens. So I had to learn about asking and being okay with getting the actual answer rather than the answer I want.

So I think I get at least something in the neighborhood about how ****** this feels, and I suspect if you take a look at how you relate to other people, you might find some present and historical answers about what it means to ask for help. I think a child who reaches out for help and doesn't get it experiences pretty deep shame. Whether it is refused directly or whether the request just isn't understood (the later was true for me in the sense that I asked for help but being a child who experienced trauma (which messes up one's ability to articulate what has happened and what kind of help you need) I couldn't get other people to understand me. I was vague and couldn't say directly what I needed. So when help didn't materialize I took that as some kind of message that I didn't deserve help, and if I didn't deserve it, it was because I was bad.

Maybe this doesn't make any sense to anyone but me, but there it is. I think you're stuck because you are having trouble seeing this in a more global or historical or other way. The thing is not the thing. It's not about your T's refusal to reply to your email and whether he's right or wrong. The thing is about what this means to you, what you feel about it, and where that comes from. And this thing is big, complex, and has the potential to resolve itself in ways that create deep change in you. But only if you deal with the actual thing.

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

My T has mentioned before that certain things with me felt like they come from a young place. It's usually when I'm feeling really vulnerable and upset. I think she thinks that there are, like, pieces of me frozen in the past because of emotional abuse/neglect from when I was a small child. She seems to think those are the most delicate, wounded aspects of me, not that there is anything bad about them.

I could see where wanting email replies could come from a young place, like wanting to be seen and heard and validated when you need it (which is what a kid would want), not waiting until your allotted session time (a type of delayed gratification that only an adult could manage).

I can see where refusing to reply to your emails could help bring your feelings out more in session. There is the whole school of thought that therapists should be withholding and distant in order to draw out transferential feelings. I have no doubt it would be effective, but it would be too harsh and potential re-traumatizing for me, if I were to be ignored like that. My T responds to basically all of my emails and most of my other reasonable requests, which is helping me learn how to ask for what I need and to feel like I deserve help when I feel crummy. This bleeds over into my other relationships and enriches them.

So I don't think you're doing anything wrong, and I don't think your T is doing anything wrong. Ultimately it is just a question of whether he is working in a way that's helpful for you, and nobody here can figure that out for you. I have had the experience of being really, really stuck over a particular issue with my therapist and then suddenly resolving it (for the moment, at least!). But I also understand the urge to end things if it really doesn't feel like you can get what you need from him. There really isn't a right answer here, just what works for you.

I agree with this completely.

No, it doesn't mean bad and I think its feelings your T wants you to talk about in sessions. It's transference so not exactly mature communications and likely not how you communicate with anyone else but him.

Expressing the young feelings can be the best part of the therapy. Your T may have wanted to make you aware that what is going on in the inside (child feelings) doesn't match the outside (adult) to explore why this is so.

[ArtleyWilkins]

I think that's the message you are inferring but I don't think that is the message he is intending.

Your need for email (and perhaps some of the content of your emails) may come from a "young" place, and your therapist is asking you to keep the therapy interactions contained to sessions. He's just asking you to explore, in session, those "young"er needs.

[growlycat]

Some therapists believe very strongly that in no way they should gratify your needs. This is a pretty hard line to take though.

My better therapists were ok with filling some emotional needs as long as I was doing the work and moving in a direction of getting it outside of therapy. But it is a process. The hardline withholding never worked for me.

[unaluna]

Observe, dont judge.

[satsuma]

I think seeing these needs as 'young' should not be seen as 'bad'. We don't blame young children for being young, and we don't blame them for having the needs that young children have. We understand that's the stage they're at in life, and usually most people respond to children's needs with care and understanding. For example, imagine how most adults would respond to coming across a small child lost and crying in a shopping mall. They wouldn't think ' Oh for goodness sake, how annoying, why can't they just pull them self together, if I can find my way around they should' etc.
So I think that's a useful way to see these needs in therapy, especially since as another poster said they often stem from arrested development during childhood. As my T would say 'We don't have to make a judgment, it's neither good nor bad, it just is'.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by satsuma

and usually most people respond to children's needs with care and understanding.

I guess what confuses me is that my T is saying that my desire for email replies is “young” and his response is to deny the request. That sort of makes it seem like he thinks the desire is not appropriate.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by feileacan

No, I don't think young = bad and I haven't got the impression that your T thinks that way. My understanding is that he stopped responding because he felt it does not help your treatment and that's his ultimate goal - to help you the best he can.

How do you get past it? I know only one way - talking about it as many times, as often and as long as things start making sense. This is the essence of the therapy work and it takes as long as it takes.

Sometimes the whole topic just seems like a ridiculous one to spend time talking about. His explanation can make some sense for a while but then it eventually stops making sense. And I’d say I’m a pretty reasonable person so this whole topic and the fact that it’s not going away can be crazy-making.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by PurpleMirrors1

You’re asking for a connection between sessions.

Yes! Exactly. What’s wrong with wanting connection? Seems harmless and maybe even a good thing.

[ArtleyWilkins]

Children learn that there is often a time and a place for things, and they learn to wait until that time and place.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

My T responds to basically all of my emails and most of my other reasonable requests, which is helping me learn how to ask for what I need and to feel like I deserve help when I feel crummy. This bleeds over into my other relationships and enriches them

This makes sense to me and it sounds really nice.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

The thing is not the thing. It's not about your T's refusal to reply to your email and whether he's right or wrong. The thing is about what this means to you, what you feel about it, and where that comes from. And this thing is big, complex, and has the potential to resolve itself in ways that create deep change in you. But only if you deal with the actual thing.

Thanks. Lots to think about. I realize it’s probably not really about the emails, but that’s where I’m stuck right now. Perhaps it’s about asking for help and not getting it. Hopefully I can get to the bottom of this before going crazy.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by octoberful

Your T may have wanted to make you aware that what is going on in the inside (child feelings) doesn't match the outside (adult) to explore why this is so.

I wish he’d just express himself better rather than speaking in riddles. I’ve brought this up several times before and I’d like to just get to the bottom of it rather than let the same topic drag on and on.

Originally Posted by Lrad123

I wish he’d just express himself better rather than speaking in riddles. I’ve brought this up several times before and I’d like to just get to the bottom of it rather than let the same topic drag on and on.

Your in exploratory therapy, he won't get to the bottom of, that's for you to do, and you are getting to the bottom of it. Your OP references shame, just like your last post did. I think maybe because you've been doing it through email so long, you haven't yet emerged yourself in the transference and explored it. But the feelings are more continuous and connected rather than characterized by an end point.

Now that your defenses are lowered, you can go in and start talking about how the email makes your feel. The shame and embarasessment and always have been independent. When you start to immerse yourself in the transference, your mind will automatically start making connections through the feelings. I just think you haven't really been in the transfence yet. Think of it an imaginary space to play in. Let yourself feel like the small child who had to be independent. An example might be your parents continually rejecting you when you need something made you feel bad about yourself and unloved. Those feelings come up when you can emerge in the transference. Again, you were working through your feelings outside of session.

Try getting into sync and see if that changes things. Your going back to the emails again. The issue isn't the emails, the issue is transference. Using the above example, your T would be taking the place of your parents in not attending to your needs, leaving your feeling rejected and unloved. Your T taking away from the email is like your parents not tending to you and letting you figure stuff out on your own, leading to your becoming independent. That's where shame feelings can come from.

I'm not saying this is what is happening, but working through these feelings is really how you'd get to the bottom if it. But it leads to new insights and new feelings, so getting tto the bottom of things takes time.

I short, if you leave the email topic behind, immerse yyourselff in the trasnferrence play space, things may flow aallowing you to get in sync.

Sorry, my keyboard is broke or i have a virus.

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by Lrad123

Sometimes the whole topic just seems like a ridiculous one to spend time talking about. His explanation can make some sense for a while but then it eventually stops making sense. And I’d say I’m a pretty reasonable person so this whole topic and the fact that it’s not going away can be crazy-making.

It's not about being reasonable. Being reasonable is your defence to your early childhood problems which themselves were not reasonable at all. Being reasonable will not bring the solution - you have to get out of that reasonable thing, into the realm of unreasonable and irrational (because that's what both feelings and young children are).

You say you want to get to the bottom of this topic, like it would be some kind of nuisance. However, as Anne brought out, this is probably THE topic (or at least one of those) and it's really impossible to tell how long it takes to get anywhere with it.

Because in order to get anywhere with it you have to go deeper yourself, let go of being reasonable. The T cannot manage this process really, he cannot make you do it. He an only try to provide an environment where it would be possible to do it. But it's your job to take these steps towards the bottom of it.

I'm truly sorry that it's so difficult - this kind of therapy is never warm and fuzzy (although I suppose that there are these kinds of moments too but they are not the aim). I often feel myself like a donkey who is chasing a carrot hanging before my nose that I will never catch and it makes me crazy. On other moments I realise that it's not that I never get a bite from that carrot and I also realise that even if I don't get a bite, I will move forward and that's why I am in therapy. If my T would feel sorry for me and give me the carrot because it feels good then I would not probably move a step because why should I?

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by octoberful

I short, if you leave the email topic behind, immerse yyourselff in the trasnferrence play space, things may flow aallowing you to get in sync.

I just wanted to say that this process you are describing might be way easier for some people than others. I'm in many respects as Lrad - been very independent all the time, the shame will surface all the time and threaten my very existing etc etc.

I have been in psychoanalysis for almost 6 years soon and I still cannot do this kind of transference work yet. I simply can't. I understand how it works in theory but in practice my defences know better than me - they know that it would be dangerous to let go like this because shame is part of my very core and it would be very dangerous to let it loose like this - I feel I might stop existing or stop existing in a way I know myself (which is the same thing) or that I won't be able to gather myself together after the session ends etc.

I have accepted that my process is terribly slow by anyones standards. I've also accepted that I need it anyway. It's just that it's probably never going to be easier for me and I will probably never going to "enjoy the pleasures" of psychoanalysis - the transference work you described - I've been just too damaged for that during my early childhood.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by octoberful

I short, if you leave the email topic behind, immerse yyourselff in the trasnferrence play space, things may flow aallowing you to get in sync.

I sort of get what you are saying, but I’m not sure I am able to schedule myself to do this exactly during one of the two 50 minute periods I have with my T each week. Can I do this on my own? Because I feel like I may be able to do this better on my own time.

As others have suggested, it feels like I’m responding to the fact that I don’t typically ask much from people, however my T created an atmosphere where he gave me something (email attention and replies), then took it away and now I want it and feel a loss for what I once had. When I ask for them (which feels embarrassing), he says no which makes me feel horrible, and if I get upset about it, I feel like he will want to terminate me because last time I got upset in December I somehow ended up making an appointment with another T afterwards. I’m not even sure if that was his idea or mine, but I feel like he might have been pushing me away although it might have been at least partially in my mind. I did tell him F*** you in an email, but as far as getting upset I don’t think it was too terribly bad (I feel like I was provoked, after all) but it might have been too much, so I feel like I’m not allowed to get upset even though some of this is upsetting.

[Lrad123]

Originally Posted by feileacan

It's not about being reasonable. Being reasonable is your defence to your early childhood problems which themselves were not reasonable at all. Being reasonable will not bring the solution - you have to get out of that reasonable thing, into the realm of unreasonable and irrational (because that's what both feelings and young children are).

You say you want to get to the bottom of this topic, like it would be some kind of nuisance. However, as Anne brought out, this is probably THE topic (or at least one of those) and it's really impossible to tell how long it takes to get anywhere with it.

Because in order to get anywhere with it you have to go deeper yourself, let go of being reasonable. The T cannot manage this process really, he cannot make you do it. He an only try to provide an environment where it would be possible to do it. But it's your job to take these steps towards the bottom of it.

I'm truly sorry that it's so difficult - this kind of therapy is never warm and fuzzy (although I suppose that there are these kinds of moments too but they are not the aim). I often feel myself like a donkey who is chasing a carrot hanging before my nose that I will never catch and it makes me crazy. On other moments I realise that it's not that I never get a bite from that carrot and I also realise that even if I don't get a bite, I will move forward and that's why I am in therapy. If my T would feel sorry for me and give me the carrot because it feels good then I would not probably move a step because why should I?

Thanks. I appreciate your comments. My response to octoberful (see #24) is also meant as a response to your comments as I feel like you two are saying similar things. It’s all very helpful but confusing too.