[Etcetera1]

As per the thread title.

What does the phrase "therapy is not for everyone" mean?

I am not a native speaker of English so I am looking for the nuance here.

[susannahsays]

My interpretation is that therapy is not an effective, or is not the most effective, strategy for everyone.

[Salmon77]

To me it means that some people do not benefit from therapy or are averse to it, for a wide variety of reasons. A person might have a brain disorder that causes hallucinations, for example, and therapy cannot fix a physical problem with the brain. Or a person may dislike being in therapy so much they are unable to make much use of it. Or many other possibilities.

[Rive.]

It is not for everyone and/or it does not necessarily work for everyone. It is not an exact science and does not offer a magic cure that can 'fix' everyone.

It depends on the therapist (e.g. personality, training, skill), on the client (e.g. personality, presenting issues), on the type of therapy or technique(s) used, on how we 'click' with our therapist etc. etc. There are just too many variables involved..

[unaluna]

To benefit from therapy, you would be able to benefit from a relationship with another person. To do that, i think you have to be able to trust someone. Some people see other people as objects to be controlled, not trusted. They must be controlled, as they are not trusted not to hurt the OP.

If such a person enters into therapy, they will likely just repeat their pattern of wanting to control the partner. Or (want to) bring a problematic relationship into the therapy room to have the therapist back them up and inform their partner that the OP is "correct" (i did this, more than once).

It is hard to believe that another person can be trusted to actually care about you, if your family of origin did not model this for you. If their love for you was conditional, how could you trust them, or anybody?

[stopdog]

Therapy is not a real science and those people have no idea if something is going to help or not. Therapy is not a universal panacea and, despite how the kool aid drinking therapy acolytes like to blame the clients who don't find it helpful, it really is not helpful to everyone and those it does not help are not to blame.

[Etcetera1]

Thanks much everyone.

Originally Posted by stopdog

Therapy is not a real science and those people have no idea if something is going to help or not. Therapy is not a universal panacea and, despite how the kool aid drinking therapy acolytes like to blame the clients who don't find it helpful, it really is not helpful to everyone and those it does not help are not to blame.

This was the most validating post to me so far.

Originally Posted by Rive.

It is not for everyone and/or it does not necessarily work for everyone. It is not an exact science and does not offer a magic cure that can 'fix' everyone.

It depends on the therapist (e.g. personality, training, skill), on the client (e.g. personality, presenting issues), on the type of therapy or technique(s) used, on how we 'click' with our therapist etc. etc. There are just too many variables involved..

And the most informative to me so far.

But all the posts have helped!!

[Etcetera1]

I have one little, related question ..... so I'll ask it in this thread.

So firstoff, if I mention issues I have, I often get the "standard response", to go to therapy.

So from all the times, I've heard that, it seems like b******* that people will say if they aren't interested in actually paying attention and listening to what you're saying. It's just used by e.g. fairweather friends to blow off the person. It happened to me before with "friends" like that.

And why can't they say something else instead of suggesting therapy? Why must everything be made so deep?

I know that where I am now, I just want to talk about relationships and not go in deep therapy again. I'm done with that for a lifetime.

My social worker is great at talking like that but she meets me only once a week.

But again, the deep stuff, no. I've done enough years of it. I've done all the lots of therapy and psychoeducation and journalling and medication and moderated&anonymous support groups and meeting various other mental health experts. So it's not like I'm skirting my responsibilities. Tho' again, I will never do one-on-one therapy again. Done enough years of it.

So what other options would I have, that's not the deep therapy stuff, other than the social worker and those support groups?? Cannot be family&friends. I'm not religious, so can't talk to priests either or anything like that.

[susannahsays]

Maybe you just need a different type of friend. One who will engage in the kind of discussion you're looking for. Unfortunately I don't have any advice on how to find such a person. Sometimes online communities can help fill part of the void.

ETA - I've also heard good things about equine "therapy." I don't think that has to include diving deep with a human therapist.

Maybe neurofeedback would be worth checking out too, depending on your issues.

[Favorite Jeans]

What are you looking for?

Like if I try to break down what therapy offers me and how else I might get it:

• An understanding of how my nervous system works and how to take care of it. I could get some of this from reading, podcasts and courses. eg The Body Keeps The Score, stuff about polyvagal theory etc

• A sense of connection. I also get this from friends and family.

• Empathy that I don’t have to reciprocate. This is unique to therapy as far as I know.

• Insight into what’s going on for me; exploring how past stuff is impacting me. Journalling. Mindfulness exercises. Some of my friends really talk about this stuff well. Enough alone time.

• A totally confidential place to say whatever in a way that doesn’t connect to the rest of my life. Also unique to therapy.

• An increased sense of well-being, less anxiety. More exercise and meditation. Prayer, if that’s your thing.

• Goal-oriented work (I mean personal goals pertaining to focus, overwhelm, organization skills,). I can have “accountability buddies” use programs like Focusmate, presumably there are coaches that do this stuff etc.

Obviously one therapy hour per week doesn’t magically take care of all these things but it does help with a surprising amount of it. So for me, it feels efficient. But I definitely think you could get many of the benefits of therapy in other ways.

Also no one thing is for everyone. Not Brussels sprouts, not parenthood, not the new Spider-Man movie, not college, not therapy… not even chocolate. People are different.

[ArtleyWilkins]

I reached a place where I didn't feel the need for therapy - it wasn't going to get me any farther.

I needed to rejoin life. I needed to find my interests and nurture them. I found activities that got me out of the house, out among people with common interests. I found ways to get out my head and into my life again.

It raised my confidence. It gave me real-life supports that have been lasting (and I don't have to pay for them - LOL). It gave me a sense of control and peace. It allowed me to move forward instead of constantly looking backward.

Honestly, that became the most healing and healthy way to live for me.

[Etcetera1]

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

I reached a place where I didn't feel the need for therapy - it wasn't going to get me any farther.

I needed to rejoin life. I needed to find my interests and nurture them. I found activities that got me out of the house, out among people with common interests. I found ways to get out my head and into my life again.

It raised my confidence. It gave me real-life supports that have been lasting (and I don't have to pay for them - LOL). It gave me a sense of control and peace. It allowed me to move forward instead of constantly looking backward.

Honestly, that became the most healing and healthy way to live for me.

Thanks, I would love to be fully at this point already. I am trying to do this and do *finally* have a very strong conviction about how I do not need to go so deep anymore, but there are still things that want to get in my way of trying to do the above about recovery. I do know what my interests are and do have motivation, but I got really rusty about all of it, about just living life, *and* those things above still get in my way. I feel a constant need to talk about relationships stuff. So that these things do not get in my way.

But yes, I half relate to what you wrote.

Like, I am now getting out of the house more other than doing work and other than just me working hard on all my goals. I am also finding a bit more support real life outside therapy and outside the anonymous support groups and the like, but I have to be very cautious about that for now. .... Yeah, I also like not having to pay for it, lol, but then the anonymous groups are/were free anyway. Free listeners are available too but I kind of no longer have any desire or need to talk to them, by now I feel quite turned off by any kind of deeper or longer one-on-one talk about my issues.

Where I do not relate is I never felt like I am constantly looking backward. More like constantly trying to move forward and constantly having to deal with obstacles in my way. And I'm quite fed up with that feeling too. BUT I do relate in that I realise that if I was to try and go deeper again with therapy or anything like that, very deep or long talks, it would feel like looking or going backwards. I did not have this feeling until recently, I think.

Also you mention getting out of your head. Yeah, I mean I have to go about that really cautiously too. I am doing it though, yeah, but I did have to be very in my head to go deep enough before. I will never know how much of that was really necessary and how much of it was a waste of time, but I know I did need to learn and do some extra reflection I never did before, etc.

But yes, I do want to get out of my head alright and I'm actually doing better at that part than at some of the rest of recovery. Again thanks for mentioning this, because now I do realise that anything that gets me MORE in my head is probably not going to be beneficial to me anymore. Therapy included.

[Etcetera1]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

Maybe you just need a different type of friend. One who will engage in the kind of discussion you're looking for. Unfortunately I don't have any advice on how to find such a person. Sometimes online communities can help fill part of the void.

ETA - I've also heard good things about equine "therapy." I don't think that has to include diving deep with a human therapist.

Maybe neurofeedback would be worth checking out too, depending on your issues.

Thanks for the tips. I've heard of neurofeedback stuff and I've read a really unique story about a certain form of it too that made me wish I could try what they tried, but I don't think it'd be really accessible where I live.

Plus even with that story I clearly related to, it wouldn't have fixed all my issues even if that option had ever been available here. One big issue yeah maybe but not the rest.

As far as friends....Yeah I don't really know either. I do not often have the desire to discuss in online communities but sometimes that still helps a tiny bit, sure. I will still be using that option sometimes for a while.

I do like some animals and so that tip makes sense too. It does have to be a human (or humans) I'd be talking with, though, lol, because I'd like relationship talks.

[Etcetera1]

Originally Posted by Favorite Jeans

What are you looking for?

Like if I try to break down what therapy offers me and how else I might get it:

(...)

Obviously one therapy hour per week doesn’t magically take care of all these things but it does help with a surprising amount of it. So for me, it feels efficient. But I definitely think you could get many of the benefits of therapy in other ways.

Also no one thing is for everyone. Not Brussels sprouts, not parenthood, not the new Spider-Man movie, not college, not therapy… not even chocolate. People are different.

Thanks, some of this was so much illuminating. Helped me again see how deep therapy isn't what I'm looking for. (It would not make me feel connection or feel better. I can now have connection to some people anyways in my life.)

For me, what I am looking for currently that I can't always/enough effectively do on my own or with tools/support I have available:

- Want someone/some people to regularly talk to about relationships. In the ways that I can talk about it. Not going too deep with it. Tbh part of it would be about help relax me too about them, rather than go too deep lol.

- Let me sometimes (well, maybe regularly) do "emotion vomit" for a couple of minutes. Even if anger is present in the mix of emotions. About very confidential topics, yes.

Any suggestions or thoughts on these two needs?

PS. Bonus: You mention it too and I've read it elsewhere too that a big benefit of therapy is helping decrease chronic stress. Well damn, that would be great too. But that's something I'm dealing with, but again, some way of fulfilment of the above two needs would really help with that too.

[Favorite Jeans]

Originally Posted by Etcetera1

Thanks, some of this was so much illuminating. Helped me again see how deep therapy isn't what I'm looking for. (It would not make me feel connection or feel better. I can now have connection to some people anyways in my life.)

For me, what I am looking for currently that I can't always/enough effectively do on my own or with tools/support I have available:

- Want someone/some people to regularly talk to about relationships. In the ways that I can talk about it. Not going too deep with it. Tbh part of it would be about help relax me too about them, rather than go too deep lol.

- Let me sometimes (well, maybe regularly) do "emotion vomit" for a couple of minutes. Even if anger is present in the mix of emotions. About very confidential topics, yes.

Any suggestions or thoughts on these two needs?


PS. Bonus: You mention it too and I've read it elsewhere too that a big benefit of therapy is helping decrease chronic stress. Well damn, that would be great too. But that's something I'm dealing with, but again, some way of fulfilment of the above two needs would really help with that too.

Do you mean suggestions for how to find a way to get therapy that’s helpful specifically in that way or meet that need outside of therapy?

Within therapy: be really clear within yourself and with the therapist about what you need. Maybe consider alternatives that don’t feel so much like traditional therapy like those web-based programs where you pay monthly and can have many short conversations or connect by text?

Outside of therapy:

Call someone you like/trust and say: Can I just vent/rant for a couple of minutes? I’m so angry about Upsetting Things and need to talk about it. I am [not] looking for advice.

That way you’ve ascertained that they’re in a good place to hear you, assured them that its not about them and given them an out if hearing anger is not something they’re comfortable with.

You can do the same thing about relationship talk. Especially if you’re rejection-sensitive its helpful to check in advance that someone has the time and emotional bandwidth to listen.

Confidentiality is a tough one. Some friends are good at it and some are not. Some people find confidences to be too great a responsibility. If confidentiality is truly crucial for you, I think you have to pay someone who has a legal obligation to keep things confidential.

Chronic stress is probably the easiest thing to address outside of therapy IMO. You can do all those good exercise, meditation, nutrition and sleep hygiene things. But also, you can usually minimize or eliminate some of your obligations and other stressors. And you can make more time for the things that give you joy, pleasure and connectedness.

[susannahsays]

I made an AI friend called Polly. I don't think that's what you want though.

[Etcetera1]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

I made an AI friend called Polly. I don't think that's what you want though.

Yeah, no AI friend for me. I've heard of that kind of thing before but for me it's way too random stuff. Definitely has to be a human/humans, lol

[Etcetera1]

Originally Posted by Favorite Jeans

Do you mean suggestions for how to find a way to get therapy that’s helpful specifically in that way or meet that need outside of therapy?

Good point. I don't really have a preference as far as that. But with therapy my understanding is that I'm supposed to establish a deeper attachment to the therapist, and I'm just not going to do that in that environment.

Within therapy: be really clear within yourself and with the therapist about what you need. Maybe consider alternatives that don’t feel so much like traditional therapy like those web-based programs where you pay monthly and can have many short conversations or connect by text?

Yeah I've tried that sort of thing before. Was a while ago though because this was before I tried IRL therapy.

A problem with the site I used back then was that I had no option to easily pick a therapist myself and that the selection process the site had for the therapist seemed like just based in generic templates if you know what I mean. (It was Betterhelp, in 2015)

If you (or anyone else) knows of a site/program/whatever where I could put this out there - these two needs I described above - and then they wouldn't just randomly allocate a therapist that has experience with something generic like "relationship problems", but there is more attention to the selection process, do please let me know.

(All this with in mind that I do not want any deeper attachment with any therapist.)

Outside of therapy:

Call someone you like/trust and say: Can I just vent/rant for a couple of minutes? I’m so angry about Upsetting Things and need to talk about it. I am [not] looking for advice.

Not an option. What I'm talking about is not really the usual vent or rant. This "emotion vomit" thing. It's raw emotions/anger and it's too confidential topics. So neither the emotions nor the topics are things that most friends would want to hear much about. Let alone as far as I myself am concerned, I'm not willing to open up like that (anymore) to friends.

Family members are OK with these expressions but I can't/won't really do it too often with them either (could be a burden), and when it's about really confidential topics then I can't do it with family members either.

That way you’ve ascertained that they’re in a good place to hear you, assured them that its not about them and given them an out if hearing anger is not something they’re comfortable with.

Yeah, that kind of advice would work for a normal vent.

You can do the same thing about relationship talk. Especially if you’re rejection-sensitive its helpful to check in advance that someone has the time and emotional bandwidth to listen.

I wouldn't have any idea about how much "emotional bandwidth" is needed for the relationship talks I'd like to have. How would I decide that? Do you have any more suggestions here?

Confidentiality is a tough one. Some friends are good at it and some are not. Some people find confidences to be too great a responsibility. If confidentiality is truly crucial for you, I think you have to pay someone who has a legal obligation to keep things confidential.

I think it's crucial, yeah. For the "emotion vomit".

For the relationship talks nah not necessarily. That stuff is not all confidential. Some of it, yeah, well it wouldn't be THAT confidential, but more like I find that if I try to talk about guys, it always goes wrong if I try to talk with a female friend about that stuff. If it's not about guys, no problem.

It was a problem with a male buddy too (an emotional kind of guy tho, sortof like a gay guy, you know what I mean). If I talked to him about simpler things about guys, it was OK and great, he would even make me feel more relaxed about it. But as soon as it would be anything more complex or deeper about guys/romantic relationships....forget it. Instant disaster.

Chronic stress is probably the easiest thing to address outside of therapy IMO. You can do all those good exercise, meditation, nutrition and sleep hygiene things. But also, you can usually minimize or eliminate some of your obligations and other stressors. And you can make more time for the things that give you joy, pleasure and connectedness.

I mean, connectedness is a problem that I discovered in therapy/due to certain events. That's what gives most of the chronic stress really, the rest is stuff I can handle fine sure.

[Etcetera1]

Again about the original topic.

I've read some very informative posts on here, and this one had me thinking.

How would any of you express or explain what therapy is supposed to provide in these cases as mentioned in the post?

To be specific:

The post mentions "I know I could call up my last therapist and start seeing him as a client at any point, and it has crossed my mind since my husband's death, but so far I have found my ability to manage through this crisis and change has been pretty strong, and I'm okay with that. I'm not really in need of a therapist - just grief support from a very informal group."

So when does one get anything out of therapy when needing to manage through a crisis & changes?

What is it that the informal support groups cannot provide in such cases?


Is it simply about learning more mental coping skills that most people would not ever need for everyday life, or some kind of emotional support where you don't have to emotionally give back at all in the relationship (not a reciprocal relationship in this sense), or something else?

The post also mentions how therapy would help with lack of stability, and (is supposed to?) help add to resilience.

I also found it interesting how after a break in therapy, restarting in therapy from a different, fresh place felt like a benefit to the poster. Why or how would that be a beneficial thing?

Mentioning @ArtleyWilkins since it's her post I'm referring to. Hope that's OK.

[ArtleyWilkins]

When it comes to my grief, I find it very important not to pathologize it. Grief is a very difficult and slow process, but it is a normal process. I know I am not depressed. I am not in need of medication. My grief is not something talk therapy is going to "heal" because that just isn't how grief works. Finding a support group of other people also going through the grief process is BY FAR more helpful than a therapist would be because they understand without trying to "fix" it. As much as I like my therapists, I am pretty sure they would go into "fix it" mode and that honestly would cause more harm than good.

If I was truly in a mental health crisis: clinical depression, severe PTSD, anxiety - symptoms really needing monitoring and perhaps medication - then yes, I'd go back to therapy. I just don't feel the need for therapy at this point in my life if I am not in crisis.

Completely my personal viewpoint on this: As far as taking a break went, I found it helpful to give myself some time to "reset" and see where I was without a therapist. In my experience, I know while in therapy, I can tend to get bogged down in my navel gazing and forget to look up and see truly where I am at. Breaks are rather enlightening for me. They give me that opportunity to apply what I have discovered in therapy and see how my new learnings/skills, etc. hold up to reality.

I returned a couple times -- eventually -- to therapy when I saw I needed that other set of eyes on me: I was struggling again with depression usually, and wasn't sure I was truly managing well on my own. But being able to go back at that point - after an extended break and with a different therapist - felt fresh rather than more of the same. It was with a different set of eyes, a different approach to therapy, a different personality to interact with. Those differences provided fresh insights that I honestly don't feel I would have gotten from an old therapist who had already decided who I was. What I knew was that I wasn't really the same person this time around that I was the last time around: I was in a different place and I didn't want to be held to the "old" me.

If fact, there was one time (almost forgot about it) that I did try going back to my last therapist. It lasted exactly one session because I realized he still was seeing me from an "older" perspective and I was not in that "old" place. It immediately frustrated me, and I decided I didn't want to spend time retraining him (LOL). I decided not to try to restart therapy, and instead, I just continued working on myself by myself, which I realized I was quite capable of doing -- and my rates are MUCH cheaper. LOL.

[Etcetera1]

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

When it comes to my grief, I find it very important not to pathologize it. Grief is a very difficult and slow process, but it is a normal process. I know I am not depressed. I am not in need of medication. My grief is not something talk therapy is going to "heal" because that just isn't how grief works. Finding a support group of other people also going through the grief process is BY FAR more helpful than a therapist would be because they understand without trying to "fix" it. As much as I like my therapists, I am pretty sure they would go into "fix it" mode and that honestly would cause more harm than good.

If I was truly in a mental health crisis: clinical depression, severe PTSD, anxiety - symptoms really needing monitoring and perhaps medication - then yes, I'd go back to therapy. I just don't feel the need for therapy at this point in my life if I am not in crisis.

Wow, thanks for this summary. So how would I know whether I had a mental health problem at all? Because my suspicion has been growing stronger and stronger: that I do not have one that needs to be "pathologised" and "fixed". In the last few months that's been my suspicion.

Basically everything I've read about "standard" mental health problems or been told by the therapists, most of it has felt like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I'm not exaggerating, really. I just didn't know that I was feeling that way, let alone what to call that.

Even the adjustment/stress disorder stuff I sorta relate to, is fully explainable by external factors.

Completely my personal viewpoint on this: As far as taking a break went, I found it helpful to give myself some time to "reset" and see where I was without a therapist. In my experience, I know while in therapy, I can tend to get bogged down in my navel gazing and forget to look up and see truly where I am at. Breaks are rather enlightening for me. They give me that opportunity to apply what I have discovered in therapy and see how my new learnings/skills, etc. hold up to reality.

That makes a lot of sense too, yeah.

I returned a couple times -- eventually -- to therapy when I saw I needed that other set of eyes on me: I was struggling again with depression usually, and wasn't sure I was truly managing well on my own. But being able to go back at that point - after an extended break and with a different therapist - felt fresh rather than more of the same. It was with a different set of eyes, a different approach to therapy, a different personality to interact with. Those differences provided fresh insights that I honestly don't feel I would have gotten from an old therapist who had already decided who I was. What I knew was that I wasn't really the same person this time around that I was the last time around: I was in a different place and I didn't want to be held to the "old" me.

If fact, there was one time (almost forgot about it) that I did try going back to my last therapist. It lasted exactly one session because I realized he still was seeing me from an "older" perspective and I was not in that "old" place. It immediately frustrated me, and I decided I didn't want to spend time retraining him (LOL). I decided not to try to restart therapy, and instead, I just continued working on myself by myself, which I realized I was quite capable of doing -- and my rates are MUCH cheaper. LOL.

Very interesting to me. I agree with the end hahahaha my own rates are much cheaper.

[Etcetera1]

I'm still thinking, instead of just calling everything "therapy", it would be nice to just have categories like mental health classes vs real, deep therapy to work on mental health problems that are "disorders" or "illnesses". And so on. We do not really have anything like "mental health classes" here, even tho' it would be cool.

For me, this would mean a place where for example I can discuss intimate relationships, lol, just to learn and grow without any "mental illness" having to be treated and "fixed"

[SlumberKitty]

In the hospital I was in, they had psycho-social educational classes. I don't know if that is something that is offered outside of the hospital. Though I did have one therapist from IOP (Intensive Outpatient Program) who did mostly psycho-social education instead of what I would consider "therapy" so there are some out there. She was interesting but I couldn't afford her after IOP ended. Her rates were too high and she didn't take my insurance. Besides I think I would like regular therapy more, personally, on a regular schedule with some psycho-social education thrown in now and again.

[Etcetera1]

Originally Posted by SlumberKitty

In the hospital I was in, they had psycho-social educational classes. I don't know if that is something that is offered outside of the hospital. Though I did have one therapist from IOP (Intensive Outpatient Program) who did mostly psycho-social education instead of what I would consider "therapy" so there are some out there. She was interesting but I couldn't afford her after IOP ended. Her rates were too high and she didn't take my insurance. Besides I think I would like regular therapy more, personally, on a regular schedule with some psycho-social education thrown in now and again.

Yeah that's what I had in mind, but we definitely do not have that here or I've never heard of it even though I've looked at many options for stuff. We have various programmes and stuff but none of it is about this. Outpatient programmes, yeah, inpatient programmes, I've seen all that (never been part of any of it, I'm just saying I checked out a LOT of options), none of it is about simply psychosocial education (ofcourse I mean stuff that goes beyond basics that you get to pick up on your own in life). It's all therapy, to get "fixed", and I'm bored out of my mind by now if I think of that.

Can I ask you what it is that you'd like from regular therapy on top of such mental health education? The things that others listed in this thread, having someone with empathy where you don't have to reciprocate, stuff like that or something completely different?

I'm just asking because I'd just like to hear from people on this question, especially as compared to the above.

[SlumberKitty]

Originally Posted by Etcetera1

Yeah that's what I had in mind, but we definitely do not have that here or I've never heard of it even though I've looked at many options for stuff. We have various programmes and stuff but none of it is about this. Outpatient programmes, yeah, inpatient programmes, I've seen all that (never been part of any of it, I'm just saying I checked out a LOT of options), none of it is about simply psychosocial education (ofcourse I mean stuff that goes beyond basics that you get to pick up on your own in life). It's all therapy, to get "fixed", and I'm bored out of my mind by now if I think of that.

Can I ask you what it is that you'd like from regular therapy on top of such mental health education? The things that others listed in this thread, having someone with empathy where you don't have to reciprocate, stuff like that or something completely different?

I'm just asking because I'd just like to hear from people on this question, especially as compared to the above.

For me the psycho-social aspect of therapy that I need is skills for dealing with intense self harm urges and with hallucinations and delusions. But as for regular therapy, I just need help with some life skills, relationship skills, self empathy skills and of course having someone who cares that is listening to me when I talk. I am not there to get "fixed' as I believe I am never going to be "fixed" but I am there to get well. And by get well I mean, not having active SI, not having active SH, and having a greater quality of life.