[Kiya]

Ok all - I really don't get it. I don't get all this talk of ego states vs. DID alters. My first t acknowledged inner children (plural) and did refer to them as ego states or my being fractured. Having done a lot of reading and dialoging, I found that many ppl use "ego states", "fractured" and "alters" indiscriminately. When i asked my former t if i was DID she said absolutely not.
Eventually i changed t's and the new one said yes i am DID.
Even my current t - who is used to working with "altered states and ego states" finally had me do a mapping for DID.

Througout these posts, i can see no difference between the descriptions of the "ego states" and my own supposed "alters". THere are the mood swings, the children crying, the protectors, adults fully formed with their own thoughts...
Why does none of this make sense??
Even the books use all those words to describe DID/MPD.
Can anyone fill me in?

[sunrise]

Yes, the key difference between ego states and the alters of DID is that the alters can take control and switch. With ego states, which everyone has, the ego states never take control. Here are the first and second features (of four) of the DID diagnosis (from the DSM). Both of these are mandatory to have DID.

A. The presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states (each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and self.)

B. At least two of these identities or personality states recurrently take control of the person's behavior.

When B happens, the other alters often do not have memory of this. The alter who takes control is the one who has the experience. The other alters "lose time."

With ego states, you may have "A" (although not necessarily), but you do not have "B". That is how it is for me: I have A but not B, which is very common. So I am not DID according to the DSM.

It has best been explained to me that there is a continuum of dissociation with DID at one end of the spectrum. Maybe at the other would be slight dissociative behaviors such as "zoning out." In the middle are ego states.

I have also read that many people cannot access their ego states without hypnosis. But I have, so I know this is not a universal.

Ego states can also be very slight organizing principles, not necessarily fully developed personalities, although they can be that too. For example, my T told me one might have an ego state of "how I experience a sunset." Other ego states might be organized around "how I function at work." Or "how I make a killing in the stock market every day." Or "the little girl who was abused when she was 3 years old." Or "the teen who lost her father in a horrible car accident." There's a whole range.

I think the key is to realize there is a continuum and that we all fall along it somewhere.

I hope that is helpful!

[Perna]

For me, I kind of think of DID as ego states that got out of control :-) Some people's "primary" or host personality is really strong so they can suppress their knowledge of other ego states, just think of them as odd thoughts or something they occasionally have whereas for some people an ego state takes charge and does really well and the person isn't aware that happened because of trauma so it's likely to happen again and other ego states may try it too, etc. As a child we're less likely to have as much control during stressful times, less likely to have other ways of dealing with really horrific abuse, etc. so more likely to let "someone" who can deal with it do so for us.

[chaotic13]

Kiya thanks for posting this question. I was starting to get confused a little bit and wondering if I was correctly interpreting some of the posts. Before therapy, I just knew that there were parts of myself that I didn't really like, thought were abnormal, and chose to ignore or dismiss them. I guess my "executive" did not want explore them and judged them to be a threat. I have been slowing and independently working on accepting their presence. Although I did not use the term ego states, last week was the first time I verbally acknowledge that I perceived different states to my T. I haven't decided if this is something that I am ready to explore with my T or not at this point.

[Kiya]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm..... ok Sunrise, Perna.... so then what is the difference between "A. The presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states (each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and self.) "

...and DID co-consciousness??!!?

Perna... "and other ego states may try it too,"... that makes it sound like ego states are capable... of becoming .... what - animated? of doing things on their own?

So is an "ego state" the birth place of a DID alter? Is DID co-consciousness" a regression of full blown DID back down into know ego states that then communicate?

Mckell... i'm gonna need some popcorn and a soda for this one.... you need any?

[Rapunzel]

My understanding is that there are degrees of fragmentation. In the way I see it, any mental illness could be viewed in terms of degree of fragmentation. Depression and anxiety could be cracks or holes. At the other extreme, where the ego is fractured into separate pieces, that are not necessarily aware of each other or able to work together, is DID. Psychotic disorders might also be an extreme fragmentation. I see myself somewhere in the middle, as I am fractured into split off pieces that don't like each other very well but still recognize each other as part of the same unit, with the same memory and experience. Of course, if a rock is thrown hard enough to fracture it, the same rock could also have holes and cracks all over it too, so there may be a lot of overlap between the degrees of fragmentation. That's how I see it anyway.

[sunrise]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Kiya said:
Hmmmmmmmmmmm..... ok Sunrise, Perna.... so then what is the difference between "A. The presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states (each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and self.) "

...and DID co-consciousness??!!?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Kiya, you can have co-consciousness with an ego state. That is the only way I have with mine. If I didn't have co-consciousness, I wouldn't be aware of them (unless there is some other way I don't know about). But with DID alters, they can "take over" as in "B" in the DSM description.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
So is an "ego state" the birth place of a DID alter?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Yes, absolutely! You got it! Often ego states split off due to childhood trauma. They become differentiated from the main personality as a defense against traumatic events. But just remember, they are "A" only, not "B" in the DSM DID definition.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Is DID co-consciousness" a regression of full blown DID back down into know ego states that then communicate?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I am not a DID expert so I don't know about the regression you mentioned. I know more about ego states since that is what I have. I have co-consciousness with my ego states and from reading a bit, that seems common. But with alters they can "run the show" on their own and the other alters may "lose time" so they wouldn't be co-conscious at that time. When I have talked to my ego states, I just do it in my head. When T talks to them, he has to go through me. I relay the messages back and forth. This is called in the therapeutic lingo, "talking through." Also, some of my ego states have relationships with each other without my knowing about it (unless they tell me). That was a surprise to me, that inside I am a web of relationships and some of them I am not even part of. As my T said last time, isn't the psyche amazing?

My T wanted to know how I communicate with my male ego state. He wanted to know where we "meet". He asked if we met on a stage. ???? I said, no, just in my head. He also wanted to know if I saw this ego state (no, but I have seen the girls), heard his voice (yes), or what. I guess different people experience different things.

Just remember, it's all a continuum along the dissociation scale. So yes, ego states "come before" DID alters on the scale.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
i'm gonna need some popcorn and a soda for this one

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">It is fascinating, isn't it?

[Perna]

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Kiya said:
Perna... "and other ego states may try it too,"... that makes it sound like ego states are capable... of becoming .... what - animated? of doing things on their own?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Of splitting off. The extreme of DID. If one takes over when you are traumatized it becomes easier for others. It's "practice" of sorts, like any other symptom. Something works for you, you do it again.

[Kiya]

my mind is reeling from all this.... now i dodn't know if i have alters or ego states.

i guess i have had some take overs....
a censor lock down
a 12 yr old driving the car and not well
a 10 yr old drove to the store and had to shop and interact with others. i heard my voice but very very far away trying to instruct her and tell her who the people were who were talking to her.
a little one came out in therapy, crying because she thought she was in trouble
a non-formed part came out in therapy and said she had no body - just eyes.

are these then "take overs" because they didn't go "through me"? A lot of times they do go through me, but not always. and now my mom refuses to go get pet food with me because she says "you turn into a 5 yr old wanting a kitty". I don't really see my behavior as different, but she must.

my head is still spinning.
oh and i do feel like it is someone else who comes out to do SI. like i have no control over it. so maybe i am still in the DID boat?

[Perna]

Think of any habit. Brushing your teeth. Every night at 8:00 you brush your teeth. So, down the road, you just do it automatically, the tooth brushing person takes over and 7:58, marches you to the bathroom, you don't even think about it, notice it, nothing.

Lots of people arrive at a destination and don't know how they got there, they were dissociating. The more one "practices" that, allows that, the more often it's going to occur. Get in car, start to work, you're "somewhere else". Happens when you're reading a book and get into the story and don't pay attention to what's going on around you; my mother use to have to call me 3-4 times if I was reading. I'm sure you've seen the TV commercial for some insurance company and how much they "care" which starts with the woman yanking the pizza delivery guy back when he steps off the curb into oncoming traffic. He wasn't paying attention.

We have to focus our minds but that takes practice and experience. A child doesn't have much of either of those. If something really bad happens, a child is going to dissociate. If it "works" well, feels like another person (ego state) came out and took the beating so the child could continue under horrible stress/circumstances, the child's mind is likely to create other such people for other situations. But, let's say we have a 5 year old girl child who was abused and came up with a 12 year old tough boy state; the 5 year old girl is still there but may not get to "mature". So, she may later, when the person is an adult, "come out" at the pet store because as a "real" 5 year old she loved kittens and wanted a kitten.

If you go to therapy and really horrible memories come up, proably whoever was around "then" when the memory originally happened is going to come out again since it worked so well the first time. So, I can see 10 and 12 year olds driving.

Doesn't matter a whole lot (to me, may to you! :-) if they are ego states that have split off or alters. They're the extreme end since most people "come out of" ego states eventually, don't just switch. But the element of habit gets in there. The more ego states/alters one has and more often they're needed/used, that's like brushing one's teeth at 8:00 every night; it gets "automatic" and that's where having alters gets really really difficult and feels like one has no control and like "they" are doing something. As Pogo, a 1920's-40's comic character said, "We have met the enemy and he is us".

http://www.igopogo.com/we_have_met.htm

[chaotic13]

Can we revive this thread and talk more about ego states?

I've been exploring some of my own ego states. I don't seem to have totally separate personalities but I do have several states that seem to have personality traits and emotions associated with them. I also seem to have difficulty moving from one state to another when needed. For example when I am in therapy the emotional or private state is the one who wants desperately to be heard, but it is continually block, contradicted, or overridden by other states. I can't figure out how to quiet the other states enough to let this state through. I know hypnosis if sometimes done to help isolate ego states. What else is done?

I also seem to have a childish state which... is not very productive and is creating a lot of turmoil for the overall system... this state needs to go. I've acknowledge it, now I just need to deal with it and get it to dissolve or morph into something more productive or harmoniousness with the other states. I know there are no simple fixes.

[Kiya]

aye, there are no simple fixes - and i imagine your little one doesn't agree with you that it "needs to go". s/he may need to be heard.
i had a new one pop up - called self "little fox". drew a new mapping of the system and some pictures. can't tell if little fox is m or f. wants to leave home and mom but feels guilty. don't know if this is an ego state or an alter.

i am starting to be interested in hypnotherapy, too... and my t does that, but she must have decided that i'm not ready - she hasn't even brought it up since day one.

[Perna]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
mckell13 said: For example when I am in therapy the emotional or private state is the one who wants desperately to be heard, but it is continually block, contradicted, or overridden by other states. I can't figure out how to quiet the other states enough to let this state through.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Pay attention to the state that is "watching" all the states. I called mine "The Watcher" (I'm so original ). He didn't do anything else but if you're "aware" of what's happening it's easier to shift between states or watch one and give it the "evil eye" :-) so it knows it's not wanted at the moment, etc. Mine knew they were being watched so they acted like I would if I were being watched? But they were separate enough so I could kind of shush one and let another come forward. I also had a "traffic cop" state, I forget his name.

I typed up a document one weekend, took me most of the weekend, paying attention to who was who, what sex they were, what they were good at and what caused them problems/pain, etc. It was like 14 different states I think. I gave a copy to my T (who was pleasantly surprised :-) and noticed that things got lots easier in therapy as I was able to think to myself "okay who said that and why?" because I had what they were good at and did and who followed who, etc. so I started being mostly in a more present, observer state that made me feel more in control, etc. When "drama" started to happen I could laugh at it better and when I got frightened or anxious I could call on a more mature, supportive state, etc. There was a whole heirarchy.

[Kiya]

Oh yeah, eh? my observer is called Narrator because when no one else knows what is going on, Narrator does and can inform us all - or t. Narrator happens to be Brittish.

[chaotic13]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Kiya said:
and i imagine your little one doesn't agree with you that it "needs to go". s/he may need to be heard.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
That may be true, but she needs a little discipline :-)

[sunrise]

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mckell13 said:
I also seem to have difficulty moving from one state to another when needed.... I know hypnosis if sometimes done to help isolate ego states. What else is done?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I don't know how to move from one state to another, so you are ahead of me. But sometimes in therapy, we have talked to one of my little girl ego states, when she was being very prominent (over a year ago) due to recovery of memories. T seemed skilled at talking to her through me. So maybe your T has techniques. More recently, with my adult male ego state, I found him coming out strongly when I was writing an email to someone. He would type things using my hands. Also, I have some writings that really upset him and make him angry and I think I can trigger him into being by reading those writings. But now that I know how much they trigger him, I am reluctant to do that--it seems mean and hurtful.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I also seem to have a childish state which... is not very productive and is creating a lot of turmoil for the overall system... this state needs to go.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Maybe she needs some healing, McKell. Often, those younger ego states arise from trauma and need nurturing and rescuing. Maybe ask this one of yours what she needs? My T taught me specific "rescue" techniques for working with one of mine. We did a lot of healing with her over a year ago. Now I have some other younger ones manifesting, but we haven't gotten around to doing any healing yet. My little girl that we worked on healing back then isn't so prominent anymore. She doesn't come out. I haven't looked for her. If I looked, I might not find her, and then I would feel bad that through healing, I had made her go away. I want to think of her as a part of me always. Can you tell your T you want your younger state to go away and see where that leads?

I like hearing about your "Watcher", Perna, and your "Narrator", Kiya. And I love that he has a British accent. My adult male ego state has the role of protecting me. But I don't think of him as "the Protector." T asked me if he had a name and I didn't know. I didn't think to ask him last time we were talking. He came to me in a dream, recently, and I was surprised at how he looked. Although I hadn't seen him before, if you'd asked me to describe him based on his thoughts and voice, I would not have picked the image that appeared in my dream!

[(JD)]

I think the idea of any ego state or alter or any aspect of ourselves having to "go" is a bad idea. Acceptance, firstly, is what is needed. Understanding that part of you and why you need or needed to be that way, have that aspect, is key to progressing and improving as a human being.
For alters who are developed to hear they have to "go" would only make them dig their heels in farther, or worse, disappear taking valuable information you may very well need to work through for healing.

There isn't anything inheritantly wrong with any aspect of yourself. Once you are a congruous person again, then you can begin to form yourself into who you want to be overall.

TC

[Perna]

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sunrise said:
I like hearing about your "Watcher", Perna, and your "Narrator", Kiya. And I love that he has a British accent. My adult male ego state has the role of protecting me. But I don't think of him as "the Protector." T asked me if he had a name and I didn't know. I didn't think to ask him last time we were talking. He came to me in a dream, recently, and I was surprised at how he looked. Although I hadn't seen him before, if you'd asked me to describe him based on his thoughts and voice, I would not have picked the image that appeared in my dream!

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Oh, my protector is "Queen's Knight" a tiny, articulated, jester bear who gives me much joy and comfort.



My adult male is Anders, partner to The Green Lady; they were dream folk originally too.

[chaotic13]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Perna said:
I typed up a document one weekend, took me most of the weekend, paying attention to who was who, what sex they were, what they were good at and what caused them problems/pain, etc.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

It is interesting you made this comment.This week I was supposed to be writing about why I think I get so agitated/ unsettled when dealing with people in emotional distress. However I've been more fixated on ego states this week for some reason.

I don't seem to dissociate during therapy but I do seem to disconnect from my emotions. I'll say I'm angry, happy, upset, I can describe these feelings but I am not able to experience them or express them to others. Last session she asked me to describe the different modes or states I have and traits associated with them. I was able to name a few. But as I started think about it more I actually came up with a few more. The interesting thing was that I had told her that when I am in therapy I'm in professional mode, which as I've dug deeper is only partially true. I realized that if the person who sits defensively in therapy, unable to articulate, and paranoid is the professional me; then I must really suck as a teacher. This lead me to identify a childish state. Also what struck me was when she asked what mode I'm in when I being a wife.. I was like ugh! and eventually defaulted to on of the other states.

Sooo, yesterday I sat down and mapped out all the states that I am presently aware of and the traits that seem to go with them. I don't see them as people. (with the exception of the 10 yr old girl I sensed strongly the night after a tough session). My states are presently more of a clump of traits and emotions that surface as a group.

My problem is the emotional state is the one who makes my head explode after a session. That is the one that writes to her on occasion. That's the one that that wants to be heard and should be coming to therapy. The other ones are just running interference. Its frustrating because I just want to switch between them at will.

Sunrise, no I'm not ahead of you. I can't figure out how to switch between states. If I could I would switch out of what ever one gets triggered by my husband. Oops there's a big one I forgot, not sure if it is a separate state of just a physical manifestation that occur within the crappy wife state.

[chaotic13]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Sky said:
I think the idea of any ego state or alter or any aspect of ourselves having to "go" is a bad idea.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
I get this Sky, sometimes my intolerance for turmoil get the best of me. This state, I'll call her a she. She doesn't have to GO per se, she just need a bit of an attitude adjustment 'cause she is not playing nice with the others.

[Kiya]

my protectors are pretty daunting - not to be messed with; not by me, t, or anyone else.
i do not know how to switch at will either. at times i have begged for someone else to take over - it's pretty hard. i think narrator did just to save face, finally. i remember being asked if i was 'putting on" about the british accent.... i didn't understand the question. sometimes the emails are also in specific wording not used here in the states. not sure why or how a part can/would change heritage, but there it is. I met a love lady from Nottingham, and i would think if any were chosen, it would be her accent - but it isn't. Her's was lovely. I could have listened to her all day. And i'm part french - but narrator isn't that either - tho i can "put on" french fairly well - lord knows i've heard it plenty. =)

Pink - can your t come out and do a workshop for all our t's on healing ego states???

[sunrise]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Kiya said:
my protectors are pretty daunting - not to be messed with; not by me, t, or anyone else.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I hear ya on that. My protector guy is pretty intense and goes ballistic if something triggers him. He is fierce and doesn't tolerate c**p from anyone if it means I or one of my younger ego states will get hurt. He has tried to sabotage our divorce process on several occasions because it is so painful and triggering for me. It's embarrassing to me these various "problems" he has caused in the divorce. I really am trying to get through this, but he can't see longterm. He only sees short-term--e.g. "if I do X, then Sunny won't have to go to the legal meeting and get re-traumatized," so he does X and slows us way down or throws us off track. He has tried to get that team member he hates fired from the team, all so I won't get hurt, no matter that it would mean starting from scratch again. Why can't he see that once I am through this, things will be much better? My T knows to watch for him and his tactics now, and I think that will be helpful. I can use strong T to help keep me in the frame of the process.

What is interesting to me is that in my dream, this protector guy was much less intense, a kinder, gentler kind of protector. I'm not sure it was really him appearing in the dream, as opposed to my dreaming about him just because he was on my mind a lot.

[Kiya]

Wow sunny - glad t can watch for him in the proceedings and mediate!!! He-ego state sounds very powerful... probably a good shield to have at times.

[sunrise]

This is a good starting place to learn about ego state therapy:

Ego State Therapy: An Overview.

[chaotic13]

Sunrise,
I've been to that site before. It seems to focus on hypnosis as a tool to isolating different ego states. I'm not sure I or my T is into hypnosis.