[sunrise]

Had nice, comfortable session with T today. Not boring. Not intense. Just fine.

T thinks the root of my recent anxiety is these negative interactions with my H--they make me anxious and upset, and then I can't handle other stuff well on top of this (such as how I might lose my job, problems with the kids, etc.). He says it sounds like I am taking on some of my H's feelings. I talk to H and sense his frustation and so I become frustrated and anxious and scared in reaction to his emotions. T says leave my H's feelings with him, don't take them on. If H is frustrated, just say calmly to him, "I can hear that you're frustrated, I'm doing the best I can, we can talk more later." And then say good-bye and hang up. But don't take his crap on. Be teflon, he said. Easier said than done.

We also talked about boundaries and how he isn't sure I have ever set a single boundary in my life. I think I may be one of the most boundaryless individuals he has worked with (he didn't say that). He says he wants me to hang up that phone and then swear at my H, flip him off, tell him to go f himself, whatever. He said it will help me to get out of this trauma response I go into--freeze or flight--and go into the fight mode, which helps process trauma. Yow, I am so not good at this stuff. I am always freeze (dissociate) or flight (leave, avoid). T says even if I don't feel like "fight" to just do it and see how it goes. (This is all not to my H's face, of course, but on my own, kind of like a mock intereraction--how I wished things had gone.) He modeled yelling things at my H for me, saying in raised voice stuff like "leave me alone"", "don't treat me like that!", "f**k off!" It was very intense for me to hear T yelling this stuff. I felt upset and almost started crying while he was doing this--I don't really know what I was feeling, just that it was something, and strong.

Then he said he looked up this course on the Internet that he highly recommends I take, that it could be very psychologically empowering for me, in all parts of my life. It is an intensive self-defense course, 2 days long, where women learn to fight off male attackers and incapacitate them. It is very, very physical. He said it is good not just for the self-defense aspect but the changes it can make in the psyche, and many abused women take it to help them triumph over their past.



Before I went to session today, I was thinking about something mckell asked me in another thread, about what my current goal in therapy is. I wasn't sure but decided it might be "to become more powerful again." (That is definitely a change for me from "to get a divorce.") I have really become a wimp through the course of my marriage and didn't use to be like that at all. I didn't tell T about my new "goal", but somehow the theme of our session was along the lines of helping me regain my power. (Can he read minds? Did I unconsciously steer the session that way?)

Reading back on this, the session doesn't sound "nice and comfortable" at all. I think I am having a delayed reaction to some of what we talked about....

[Perna]

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sunrise said:
Had nice, comfortable session with T today. Not boring. Not intense. Just fine.

Reading back on this, the session doesn't sound "nice and comfortable" at all. I think I am having a delayed reaction to some of what we talked about....

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Okay, you're either taking on your T's emotions (instead of H's :-) or you are beginning to see the "fight" already (instead of just the freeze or flight, and catching up :-)

Sounds like you're doing great! Good goals and stuff. It's very hard work.

[sunrise]

Ha ha, I just noticed I titled this thread "self-dense" and I meant to call it "self-defense." An apropos slip, I think.

[chaotic13]

I think this is a good idea.

My T asked me this week why I tolerate some of the things my H does? I described on situation that came up this week. She said he was acting like a child. Why did you tolerate it? Would you have allowed your children to act like that. I said of course not. She was like why didn't you tell he was acting like a baby. I said I don't know I just walked away from him in the mall. I used to be very good at defending myself, but I am a total wimp now.

A self defense course would not help me much if our exchanges ever got physical, my H could squash me like a bug. I would however like to tap into that aggressive little kid once in a while.

I think you have been interested and focused on enhancing your communication skills. However, no matter how good of a communicator you are, your H sounds like a bully. Despite what the schools are promoting these days, sometimes the best way to deal with a bully is to fight back.

[ECHOES]

I thought you meant to call it that. I chuckled after reading your post. I agree... very good Freudian slip!

[skeksi]

I'll pipe up...my T also suggested a self-defense class after I had done some basic trauma processing but was stuck in the freeze response. I had always wanted to try a martial art, but assumed I couldn't.

Now I've been going for a year! I love it. It has been a difficult thing at times, and sometimes I think of it as my second weekly T session because it can bring up intense emotions. But I feel stronger. It's not that I think I could take on a big attacker, but I just feel a little bit more able to set a boundary, especially verbally. It's funny--my T has been urging me to "fight back" aggressively the same way yours has (when I'm alone, curse, yell inside my head, etc. at my abuser). It's taken me this long to be willing to even try it!

There are many paths to strength and personal power, and you will find your way.

[gimmeice]

((((((((sunrise)))))))))))))
I used to take on my family's feelings during conflict and it really helped to yell and cuss at the phone after I hung up. The class sounds like a really good idea, it could really help you.

[(JD)]

Absolutely! I recommend for any woman! Martial arts are great confidence builders, also great for self discipline and of course the obvious of being able to physicaly defend yourself (which also reduces anxiety!)

Go for it!

[chaotic13]

Here is your sparing partner.

Can't you hear him saying "Bring it on b*&amp;ch!"

[sunrise]

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chaotic13 said:
A self defense course would not help me much if our exchanges ever got physical, my H could squash me like a bug.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I think it's supposed to help me psychologically with H (as well as others).

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I think you have been interested and focused on enhancing your communication skills.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I was just thinking today after session how ironic it is that my new interest is in non-violent communication and now T is telling me to get angry and cuss out my H. (My reason for taking non-violent communication isn't really to deal with H anyway, but still!)

skeksi, I'm encouraged your self defense training has helped you be able to set some boundaries, made you feel stronger, etc. I think this is exactly why my T wants me to take it.

During session, T talked about how I really need to uncouple from H and not let his c**p get to me. Last summer when H and I were doing uncoupling therapy with T, I always kind of wondered what "uncoupling" meant. I know it means the emotional disentanglement of two people in a longterm relationship, but I always thought of it as more focused on stuff like letting go of the caring and love, the shared history and goals, acknowledging the pain and the grief of ending the relationship, etc. But it can mean disentangling the negative emotions too! Such as taking on his frustration during those challenging phone calls and reacting to his words with anxiety, fear, etc. This realization was a bit of an eye-opener to me today.

Thank you, everyone, for the encouragement on the self defense course! I think I'll do it. I'm going to ask my sister if she'll do it too.

[chaotic13]

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Sunrise said:
now T is telling me to get angry and cuss out my H

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Do you think your T might be trying to get you to not only say what you are feeling but also to express it? And then even go a step farther and demand that your H stop whatever he is doing to anger you?

In one of my early session, I had finally admitted that I felt angry at my H. The next session my T asked me to reflect on the previous session. I said I thought I had made some progress because I clearly expressed the fact that I was angry. My T countered with, "Really, you were angry?" "I didn't get that from you last session." Inside I about flipped out, my head started replaying the dialog from the previous session, I started quoting the exact exchange.. I said, "I think I am angry"... "Yes, I feel angry"... "This is anger!" I was so confused. I didn't get it; how could she not have heard my say that I was angry.

That this now my favorite T quote. I laugh every time I hear it now.

Do you think when people are told to punch a pillow or practice screaming, that it is helpful in learning to express anger?

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disentangling the negative emotions

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
This is really an interesting comment. Sounds like....un-attuning. Or allowing others to feel negative emotions without it rubbing off on you. Did you and your T work on this uncoupling? It seems like in some cases it's a stimulus-response kind of conditioning. Can you just undo connections after 20 years?

[sunrise]

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chaotic13 said:
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Sunrise said:
now T is telling me to get angry and cuss out my H

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Do you think your T might be trying to get you to not only say what you are feeling but also to express it?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">No, actually, just the opposite. I told him I don't feel that way but he said do it anyway--the cussing, the telling H off, etc. So I think I am just supposed to kind of fake it and say this stuff ("leave me alone!" and "screw you!" etc.) and then I think T hopes the feeling will be liberated and felt in response to my uttering these words. I think he believes I really feel this stuff somewhere inside, and who knows, he could be right. I am somehow just not normal and don't anger in response to events that would make most other people angry. But maybe it is all buried deep inside.

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And then even go a step farther and demand that your H stop whatever he is doing to anger you?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I don't feel a need to do that. He isn't really angering me. He is making me very anxious. I do try to handle the conversations as best I can.

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how could she not have heard my say that I was angry.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Did you ask her that?

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Do you think when people are told to punch a pillow or practice screaming, that it is helpful in learning to express anger?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I think it does help some people. Early in my therapy, my T tried to get me to do a pillow type thing. I dutifully did what he told me to. It did nothing for me. It just seemed dumb and fake. Later he told me that method doesn't work for me. Instead I did a homework assignment (one of the few he's ever given) where I listed all the times in my life that someone had made me angry. And next to each, I had to list how I would have liked the situation to come out instead. This latter part gets me to identify my needs, because being angry is about not getting your needs met. It was a good exercise, but not quite the same as the pillow.

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Did you and your T work on this uncoupling? It seems like in some cases it's a stimulus-response kind of conditioning. Can you just undo connections after 20 years?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">LOL, when my husband and I first began uncoupling therapy last summer, I was really apprehensive because to me it sounded like some sort of behavioral conditioning! It's not. We did 8 straight weeks of uncoupling therapy and since then we've gone back now and again. It's all part of the process. T also helps me individually, but today was the first time he mentioned "uncoupling" in an individual psychotherapy session. We are trying to undo the connections to some extent. It is tough going and takes a long time. And there will always be some connection--after all, we had children together and will continue to co-parent. I have already done a lot of uncoupling. It's painful but yeah, that's divorce. Uncoupling includes grieving and more, plus apparently what my T is trying to get me to do with engaging the fight response of the trauma reaction. Each person would need different things. My H is uncoupling too, in his own way, but he doesn't need to do the trauma work that I need to.

[chaotic13]

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Sunrise said:
I think he believes I really feel this stuff somewhere inside.

I am somehow just not normal and don't anger in response to events that would make most other people angry.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Does he think this is related to your past trauma? My T asked me one time if I was angry at my parents or childhood abusers. I said, "No not really. I didn't really talk much to my parents so they didn't know and as for the abuser, they came from screwed up homes so it probably wasn't there fault they were predictors." Later in that session she put one of my children in my place and I responded with outrage. She made a simple comment at the end of the session, 'it is interesting that you responded with outrage when thinking of it happening to someone else but not when you remember it happening to you.'

Do you really think you are not angry when your husband say the things he says? Or do you think you have just accommodated to it? Or maybe have some how swapped the "normal" angry feelings with being anxious feelings?

As for your question.. did I ask my T, "Did you not hear me say four times last session that I was angry?" No, I didn't ask her this question. After that session I replayed the dialog over and over in my head and realized that she had heard me, she was just trying to make a point. I had sat on the ugly couch and said I was angry, but showed no outward signs consistent with actually being angry. For me even when I actually acknowledge feeling something, I tend not to allow myself to express it. I guess part of getting others you understand that you are angry and that you have an unmet need may take more than just saying, "I'm angry."

When I see or hear about people punching pillows as part of therapy, I don't really get it. To me it is like you are being encouraged to throw a temper tantrum. One of the problems I had as an ADHD child was a tendency to behave violently and impulsively when angry. My parents dealt with this situation swiftly and decisively. They did not tolerate angry outbursts from the wild child!

[Merlin]

displaying anger just reinforces it

[ECHOES]

I'm wondering, since this is all being connected, if your interest in NVC is also a desire for NVC from H. Just a thought

[sunrise]

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chaotic13 said:
Does he think this is related to your past trauma?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Yes, he says I am stuck in the freeze or flight reaction to trauma and I need to do the fight response to process this. He says this is a general principle--the fight response helps people process trauma. So even by "faking" the fight part by mock-cussing, etc., it might activate something in my brain that helps me process the trauma. I think that's the theory anyway.

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Do you really think you are not angry when your husband say the things he says?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I have no idea. Part of what he says just causes me deep anxiety. And when I hear his frustration, I want to "fix" it and make it go away (this is what T says I should not be doing--taking on his c**p). If I reacted with anger, would that help anything? It would just set us back. T says not to react with anger to H's face as that would be detrimental. Wait until I am alone and then have my angry outburst and boundary setting moment. We are trying to do a divorce settlement which is very complicated and my future livelihood is at stake. I just can't go yelling at someone and screwing up our negotiations. Plus, I don't yell anyway. It is not me. But I have to talk carefully or I will %#@&#! off my H--there have always been repercussions for that. This time the possible repercussions are huge, so I need to be very careful.

By the way, I asked T yesterday if I was not "normal" because I reacted this way. And he said, no, it is very common and a good survival mechanism--freeze or flee when in danger. He said it has allowed me to survive this long and also endure 20 years of a painful marriage. But I'm getting out of the marriage, so it is time to move on with my freeze/flee responses too. So it is me who considers myself to be not normal, not my T. He is always very reassuring when I suggest that I am abnormal (has happened quite a few times!).

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ECHOES wrote:
I'm wondering, since this is all being connected, if your interest in NVC is also a desire for NVC from H.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">ECHOES, I would love it if everyone had NVC training, including H. I first encountered NVC in workplace training so that was my initial use for it. Then I found it worked sometimes with my kids too. I tried it once with H and it failed miserably! But I'm not very skilled yet. According to the trainers I have heard, it is not necessary for both people to have NVC training in order for it to work in an interaction. I can't imagine my H ever being interested in learning NVC, because it involves empathy and a desire to know and meet others' needs. My H is a profound narcissist, which does not allow for empathy or a desire to meet anyone's needs but his own. But he may be able to respond to my use of NVC. It may be less triggering for him. I don't know. It's an experiment, and unfortunately right now I don't have time to take more training, so my NVC skills are minimal. Maybe later....

[lauren_helene]

It sounds like you shut down/dissociate when H is being an azzhat.

It is a survival response, I used to be that way with my dad. I felt saying anything would just make it worse. What made it worse was not confronting his behavior head on.

I just did that last week in fact. As I packed up and left his house I said "oh by the way, this is what setting a boundary is you've crossed mine for the last time".

Be careful with martial arts and possible contracts. I just got skrewed majorly and can't get out of the contract unless I'm disabled or move 25 miles from the club. I had no idea I couldn't cancel...(long story)