[pachyderm]

I'm thinking of not going to therapy -- and not telling the T about it beforehand. This is because I feel that nothing but shock treatment will get his attention. If I go it sends the message, I think, that everything is OK, or OK enough. It isn't. (In fact, shock treatment will not work either. It will just make the situation worse.)

Comments? Helpful questions to me to elucidate more of what is going on? I do not know what to do. I have no confidence that I can find help anywhere. I have some ideas as to what might help, but no one does what I need. The standard of one or two sessions a week satisfies the convenience of the therapist but not the patient. It is, in fact, irrelevant to my needs. But the system knows nothing else, as nearly as I can see. After all, the system works well enough for the people giving the treatment. Why should they change?

Don't talk about hospitalization. As far as I can see (and in my experience) that is a total crock -- if not highly dangerous.

I seem not to be able to do this on my own. I cycle endlessly between states of some improvement and states of fallback. Endlessly.

Just one more satisfied consumer...

((((((((((((((((((((((((( pachy )))))))))))))))))))))))

I am struggling with the 1 - 2 sessions a week concept today myself. Our needs are what they are, and are not based on some sort of "ideal therapy schedule".

You said you have some ideas as to what might help. What are those ideas? If you don't mind sharing.

I'm sorry you're having a hard time, and that you feel like you have to "shock" your therapist into noticing. That's a bad place to be.

Sending many

[MINIME]

Pach...I just wish I could do something. I really think in my opinion and we all know thats worth a cracker jack box and a quarter, but I wish you could find someone else. You are very wise and deserve a good therapist.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by earthmama

You said you have some ideas as to what might help. What are those ideas? If you don't mind sharing.

Often my thinking seems to be very chaotic. It is though all kinds of different pieces are firing at random and in all different directions. There is no order to the thing. Almost everything that other people do that is supposed to be "help" does nothing to help. It appears to me that that is because almost everyone is involved with their own ideas or problems and is not listening -- apparently cannot listen -- to me.

Just about the only thing that works for me when I am in this condition is to isolate myself as completely as possible from other people (even from Psych Central). Isolate myself even in my own mind. Stop thinking about what other people say. Given enough time -- sometimes hours, sometimes days -- I can begin to get more calm and my mind begins to get a bit more organized. I begin to think better and start to remember who I am.

When I am better organized, the effect of interacting with almost all other people, at least closely, is to start the process of disintegration again. There are a few people, or at least I have read about a few people, that I think would make my mental condition move towards a condition of stability, rather than make it move towards instability. These people, at least in my mind, listen, and sometimes probe, ask questions to gain information, and gently reassure me by their actions, not by their claims, that they know what they are doing to decrease my anxiety and mental disintegration.

I have training as a scientist, and have read some information on the stability and instability of dynamic systems. I take many things that are labelled as mental illness as being obvious examples of dynamic systems that are unbalanced and virtually out of control. For instance, bipolar or manic-depressive disorders I see as classic examples of systems that have been forced out of stability and oscillate back and forth trying to become stable again. But virtually no "mental health" practitioners seem to be aware of this at all. I have tried to interest some of them in these things, without any effect. The thing is, if you understand an unstable system you can get some good ideas on what things return them to stability. Unfortunately my instability is so great that it makes it virtually impossible for me to understand what these approaches might be.

There is an example of articles written by a mathematician (!) in the 1970s who worked with a British therapist who treated anorexics. The description of how the therapist worked made a lot of sense to me. But as far as I know his work never received much attention in wider circles, even though many of his patients said when interviewed that his treatment was the only one that had effected a complete cure. Yes, cure. His treatment method was an inpatient one, and consisted of a number of several-hour sessions over weeks. Weeks, not years or decades. Of course, the important thing was what he did in the sessions. And it was a gentle listening and probing and very gentle "pushing" in a healing direction. A kind of relieving of the patients' need for conforming to the demands of society, letting them know that they would be heard whatever they said, not interrupted and "corrected" by the therapist. A kind of gentle reassurance, which led during the treatment to increasing the patients' ability to reassure themselves -- and this was the way the treatment led to "cure" -- because the patients could then work successfully on themselves. And the mathematics helped guide or at least understand the therapy, because it predicted when rapid changes could be effected and why they took place.

Well, I see none of this in present so-called therapies. Therapists seem to think they have to "do" something to you. They don't listen. They don't listen. They don't listen. There is no time taken to listen. There is not adequate time taken to listen. Nothing ever improves. Things stay the same. They do not expect anything to really change. So they do not see that anything is wrong.

I have been in and out of therapies for decades. I am fed up. I don't have that much time left.

[Sannah]

I am sorry Pachy. How long have you been with this current therapist?

[MINIME]

pach my T is just like this. There are T's like this. Im trying to be careful with how I say things because Im not sure I understand what you are saying. I just want to help you so badly. Why dont you have much time? That comment worries me alot.. I care about you. I know you dont really know me but I have a lot of love and you have been such a great support and I want to do that for you. I dont know what to say to make this better for you. I wish I could. i wish that I had the right answers, I wish that I could change the way things are for you. I dont know how. I just want you to hear me when I say I care about you and I want you to always remember that. pach im so sorry that things are hard. I hate that the mental health system does this to good people. I just want them to see what they do to people when they dont care or listen. You are very smart and I know that could make things a lot harder for you. You are quick to pick up things that other people are not. I care. Im here. I can listen.

[RiverX]

Hi pachy,
I agree, you seem very bright.

After 3 years of trying Masterson therpy - and they are the poeple who - from the literature - really understand the issues you have been describing, but each relationship made me feel crazy so I had to leave, ..............
finally I found an M. therapist, and he's the business. I hear people share - like you, so many need help and the situation with finding a genuine Ts is appalling - the industry is a shambles.
So, well, Im always full of ideas, my own opinion is that we shoud have a AA style group for the disorders.... however all attempts at that didnt fly.
My next idea is an online group with my T. as he seems to be one of the few and I want to help. No idea if the technology can be sorted out , and also be confidential, and I havent even asked him..

But if anyone is serous enough about recovery to be willing to experiment and see if it could be worked out.... ---------- we'll I'd be up for it.

[quote=pachyderm;819726]

A kind of relieving of the patients' need for conforming to the demands of society, letting them know that they would be heard whatever they said, not interrupted and "corrected" by the therapist.
[quote]

My T is like this pachy. But it sounds like you've been to a number of different Ts and still haven't found the "right" one. And that stinks.

I'm really, really sorry you're having such a hard time. Did you end up going to T today???

[SpottedOwl]

(((Pachy)))

Your post strikes a chord with me. Forgive the long post.

I have a lot of mixed feelings about the current state of therapy. It is realistically speaking a young field, and as such we don't have the level of scientific proof that we have in other areas. The only thing therapy studies consistently show is that the therapeutic relationship is the most important factor.

I have had a good experience so far with my T, and for that I am grateful. IMHO, the things that have helped me the most is that he does just listen, and is willing to really *be* with me through my own process of healing. He said his job is to witness, not to tell me what to think.

I believe each of us holds the knowledge we need for our own healing, and that therapy, in its ideal state, would support us in finding that safe place. I also believe in the idea of being cured/healed.

Since I started the process of therapy, I've inhaled all sorts of information so that I that might understand HOW therapy works. My scientific brain was not going to accept that just talking about 'anything' would work.

I appreciate your systems analogy. Go with you ideas -- I think your concept is good. The brain *is* a system.

Have you done any reading on mirror neurons?
IMHO, the most exciting brain research right now is all about mirror neurons. Our brains *do* change based on interactions that we have with other people. Similar changes can also be created through mindfulness meditation. Our brains have the ability to re-make themselves in 90 days given the proper input (aerobic activity, mindfulness, good nutrition).

I've posted about him before, but Dr. Daniel Siegel has written some fascinating books about how this all works, and his own experiences with mindfulness. He also has done a lot of research in attachment theory, and later ties that into the mirror neurons.

His most accessible book is "The Mindful Brain." It makes sense from a scientific point of view and it gives hope about affecting real change and healing later in life. I could go on and on...feel free to PM or ask any questions.

You are a smart person, Pachy, and I think you should listen to yourself.

[lifeblows]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Just one more satisfied consumer...

That line & the sheep couldn't have put it any better. That's how I thought of quitting earlier in the summer, just not going and not calling so he'd be so pissed off at me I'd never have to go again. Kind of like getting fired from therapy so I didn't have to quit on my own.

Oh Pachy, I know just what you're talking about. The only things that really help me are my kitty, drinking & cutting. I know I'm not supposed to post the last two on here, but it's true. They are more efficient and much cheaper than therapy on providing me any relief. My cat takes better care of me than my therapist did, plus he's not human so he's ten times more trustworthy.

I wish I had some magic answer for you too. I'm not surprised isolation is the way you can get reorganized. Isolation is the only way I'm getting by right now actually, I've cut myself off from the world and people as much as possible. I know you're tired and exhausted and trying to get help from inept people is even more tiring and exhausting. I wish I knew what to do or say to fix it and make it better for you. Please know we're thinking of you and we care about you. Let us know how it went if you did or didn't go. Like the others said, you are smart and it makes it even harder not to see through dumbA** therapists and their phonyness & greed. Some of us share your sentiments at least. You can rant to us as much as you need, we're here for you.

[Perna]

Don't forget you're talking about your experience, your perspective. I had therapy from 1970 to 2005 and feel I'm hunky dory now. I can't know if I would be hunky dory now if I hadn't had therapy; I like to think that my therapist I had 1978-1987 and 1996-2005 was a help to me in my struggles. Ultimately, I feel we're all alone with our particular problems and have to figure it out for ourselves, with mere hints and "support" from other people along the way.

There are other people who are helpful. The tricky thing is finding the "right" people and accessing their "help".

[jacqueline1110]

I hear people share - like you, so many need help and the situation with finding a genuine Ts is appalling - the industry is a shambles.
So, well, Im always full of ideas, my own opinion is that we shoud have a AA style group for the disorders.... however all attempts at that didnt fly.
Hey did you really try to put those AA type groups together RiverX? Pachyderm, I highly think AA is the ticket, and I'm not even an alcoholic! Alanon and ACA were helpful to my situation, but I went to an AA meeting every day for awhile when I was in my twenties, they are more popular, I did desire to quit drinking, so I made the requirements. Till this day I agree with what I learned there.

You have so many groups to choose from, you drop in anytime, you can donate whatever you want, no obligation. Plus you get to hear many peoples opinions, and counter opinions, so you aren't dependent on the one T that you don't know or trust. You'll meet people like yourself, good friendships are made there. You can even have a sponsor for free. They recommend it. It's so much more progressive than therapy. It gives you steps, and books and let's you do the work. Scientifically speaking, I give it a thumbs up!! If I go again I'll let you know.

Also, what about self-help books that interest you? Follow a journey on your own path. The other idea I have is diet, exercise, herbs, accupunture, EFT, the Sedona Method etc. I could go on. All stuff I use, and love. Light years ahead of therapy, IMO.

I don't know where you are at in life Pachyderm, but I can tell you are not far from where you want to be. I think it's right in front of you and all you need to do is grab hold of it.

[jacqueline1110]

Perna ~ Ultimately, I feel we're all alone with our particular problems and have to figure it out for ourselves, with mere hints and "support" from other people along the way.

I see what you are saying, but I disagree. I think we are all in this together, and separation is an illusion, we impose upon ourselves to protect ourselves. We are all one from the same Spirit.

[meeka]

There is an example of articles written by a mathematician (!) in the 1970s who worked with a British therapist who treated anorexics. The description of how the therapist worked made a lot of sense to me. But as far as I know his work never received much attention in wider circles, even though many of his patients said when interviewed that his treatment was the only one that had effected a complete cure. Yes, cure. His treatment method was an inpatient one, and consisted of a number of several-hour sessions over weeks. Weeks, not years or decades. Of course, the important thing was what he did in the sessions. And it was a gentle listening and probing and very gentle "pushing" in a healing direction. A kind of relieving of the patients' need for conforming to the demands of society, letting them know that they would be heard whatever they said, not interrupted and "corrected" by the therapist. A kind of gentle reassurance, which led during the treatment to increasing the patients' ability to reassure themselves -- and this was the way the treatment led to "cure" -- because the patients could then work successfully on themselves. And the mathematics helped guide or at least understand the therapy, because it predicted when rapid changes could be effected and why they took place.

Well, I see none of this in present so-called therapies. Therapists seem to think they have to "do" something to you. They don't listen. They don't listen. They don't listen. There is no time taken to listen. There is not adequate time taken to listen. Nothing ever improves. Things stay the same. They do not expect anything to really change. So they do not see that anything is wrong.

I have been in and out of therapies for decades. I am fed up. I don't have that much time left.[/quote]

Hi I am new, but I want to post an opinion.............. I went into therapy for 5 days a week for about 3 years, during which I had variable degrees of consistency, mostly very good. The therapy has REALLY helped me come into myself. What I went through was that while earlier I felt for the therapist as a parent figure, in the process I just became a much better parent and finally started parenting myself much better. Now It is like I am in constant communication with a very nurturing part of myself, which helps me to identify pathologies, mourn and correct them. This sounds bit like what you are referring to.

[RiverX]

Pachy,
I'm not sure if you felt heard or understood at all after all those responses.
I for one just jumped in with my own pet sulutions, I - now looking back feel that wasnt helpful.... sry.

I need to remind myself to be a better listener.

pleas... dont give up....
you're so well liked here, at least.... : )

river.

[jacqueline1110]

Originally Posted by RiverX

Pachy,
I'm not sure if you felt heard or understood at all after all those responses.
I for one just jumped in with my own pet sulutions, I - now looking back feel that wasnt helpful.... sry.

I need to remind myself to be a better listener.

pleas... dont give up....
you're so well liked here, at least.... : )

river.

I was struggling with my last post here and trying to make it right. RiverX thanks for bringing that up so well. I feel the same way. . Pachyderm

[(JD)]

I'm sorry that you feel this way. Several things came to my mind when I read your originating post. One being, that you only need to tell your T that you need more support and feedback that T does understand and doesn't forget how much help you need from him/her. Ask for it, don't back down. It's common to need this feedback, but it's also common for the T to be focused on the issues brought for therapy and not the dynamics of therapy sometimes.
Now, for anyone thinking of not bothering to cancel when they aren't going, realize that this is called acting out. It isn't adult behavior, but behavior to solicit a desired response by the T (as you all stated accurately.) However, it would be best to go and voice your needs. If you act out you have to assume the T knows what's going on, and T will not know!
Plus, if you don't cancel, you can still have to pay or have your insurance company count it against your allotted number of visits, and you lose both ways there too. Then think of the time slot that you didn't use and someone else who may be in crisis that needed it didn't get to see their T...when all you had to do was be courteous and call ahead of time and cancel.
Communicate with your therapist. That's what they're there for...and to help you with that communicating in your entire life.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by MINIME

Why dont you have much time? That comment worries me alot..

I think I gave a clue when I wrote that I had been involved with this for decades. One does not have a whole lot of decades in one's life. Never can tell when the time is up.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by jacqueline1110

Pachyderm, I highly think AA is the ticket, and I'm not even an alcoholic! Alanon and ACA were helpful to my situation, but I went to an AA meeting every day for awhile when I was in my twenties, they are more popular, I did desire to quit drinking, so I made the requirements. Till this day I agree with what I learned there.

It's good that AA worked for you. I remember being at only one actual AA meeting, but I attended a number of 12-step meetings at one time. The thing that sticks out in my mind about the AA meeting was one person virtually in the throes of despair and panic -- and the response he got was -- nothing. No one said anything. I got the impression that it was supposed to be "tough love" in which -- you sink or swim. Some people sink.

The 12-step programs I attended struck me too much like cults. Saying they gathered around and sang "Kumbayah" is an exaggeration, but it seemed to me there was a whole lot of "right-think" or political correctness, or touchy-feely, but not enough that I could see was genuine.

Of course, you could say that I should "take what is good for me and leave the rest" but it seemed to me that would be leaving the group. It's all my own fault, of course...

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Sannah

How long have you been with this current therapist?

Since February 2007.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by lifeblows

Let us know how it went if you did or didn't go.

I did not go. I did not tell him I was not going to go. Often I do not know myself whether I will go until it happens. I did send him an e-mail a couple of days ahead of time saying I was in trouble. He replied that we could discuss it at our next meeting (the one I did not go to). I knew I could not explain to him what was going on -- my mind was non-functional for that level of things.

I did this once before. At that time, after trying to contact me via telephone, he came to my place and tried to contact me. I was there but hid from him so he could not see me through the windows. I did the same thing this last time. It is a repeat of something I would have tried as a child, but then there was no way I could hide, and the person who was after me would get me and there was nothing I could do except "go away" mentally. I imagined myself doing the same thing yesterday. Mind shut down, no way to cope with "authorities" if they were actually sicced on me. No way but to try to lie and evade and do things that would make me appear "guilty" and get me in more and more trouble. As nearly as I can tell, no one in this society understands why people do things like that. There is no safety anywhere.

[Sannah]

Pachy, I can totally see why you would do that..... I am sorry that you are in distress. I'll bet you felt like that little boy again. I would suggest that you take that little boy by the hand and tell him "come on, we have some development to continue on with". I found myself in the same spot. Emotionally I was just a 6 yr old. I continued on with my develoopment and now I am a full grown woman....

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Tell that to my therapist. He thinks talking is listening. You know, I talk, you talk, I talk, you talk, I talk, you comment. He does not know he is not listening. Even if I tell him. He does not see what I mean. I did not know the difference until one time in an early therapy when things changed suddenly for me and I knew what listening to someone else was.

But my therapist at the time thought I was crazy. He convinced me (he being the authority) that I did not know what was in my own mind, and that he did, and that what he was doing was "for my own good". He said so. Others backed him up.

A therapist can be a very powerful person in the mind of a patient. Opposing them means going out on a very long limb, where you may find yourself totally alone in the world. Many, many people will tell you that you are wrong and "they" cannot be wrong. And thus the mind (mine, anyway) is thrown into a tailspin from which it may never recover.

After all, maybe they are right. And then it is all due to your own "weakness" anyway -- and we know how unforgivable weakness is.

I pulled this from another thread Pachy. I'll bet this made you feel like a 6 year old too..... You knew you were right deep down inside, but he was the "authority".....

[jacqueline1110]

Of course it's not your fault! Why do you say that? I hope you know me well enough by now to know "I get it" I'm not going to disagree with you about the nonsense you and I see everywhere. I agree with your scientific theories, I know it only takes weeks, not years to make good progress.

Some meetings are wacky and some areas of the country it's more difficult. It's organized like these boards, only their are no T's or authority figures hiding in woodwork (and non-profit).

Like I said I'm sorry I hope you are not offended by my advice giving. I'm not offended at all if you don't take my advice. I'm happy to share anything I can with you. I find it beneficial to have many tools in my toolbox. I have yet to find the all inclusive destination though.

Looking back it's all those things you mentioned that kept me away all these years. The Kumbayah factor especially. Cringe! I don't have the stomach for that, it's like I'm swimming through molasses. Yes, it does seem a little cultish. I refuse to associate with the people who take that position as I see here sometimes also with the finger waving.

I was going to go last night, and then I couldn't really remember why I needed it. So I didn't go. Now this morning I think I should again. It's that I don't know which is true thing you were talking about. I just can't think of any thing at the time that gives feedback that's 100% trustworthy.

I wish I had something better to offer you Pachyderm. I'm faced with the same dilemma. Please don't be so hard on yourself. I'm here if you ever need someone to talk to.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by jacqueline1110

Of course it's not your fault! Why do you say that?

It is from past experience and what I expect. For instance, I remember the words of one psychiatrist when I was in the hospital and feeling as though I were one of the worst people in the history of the world. He said (and these are, I think, his actual words):

"I don't know how you got into this situation, but one thing I do know: it was your own fault."