[Berries]

My T told me, yesterday (among other things, that are really stressing me out) that the world is divided into 2 kinds of people.

Fighters and Flighters.

People who avoid and people who fight.

He said he was a fighter and I was an avoider.

I think he might have been calling me a coward. I already feel like one. And he knows that. Why would he rub it in?
I'm kind of mad.

He also says he is about to terminate with me, cuz I told him I bought an SI tool. Even though I said I wasn't going to use it. I just got a little triggered yesterday and bought it. I should never have mentioned it. But I did, and now he is freaking.

I want to quit therapy now. But now I feel trapped. He is going to think I am quitting so I can go cut and feel he has to "take measures" . He said he would.

I am going to see him again on Monday, give him the tool, play all "normal" and get him off my back!!! Then I have to play all "normal" for a few more sessions. Then maybe I can quit and not be put in hospital involuntarily.

Gee I am glad I am in therapy. It is really working out well.

This is just great! NOT.

[chaotic13]

Lbien6,
IDK based on what you've posted about this interaction, he doesn't seem to be really getting how to work with you. I personally think that MOST people are both Fighters and flighters, depending on the situation. I would have asked him...."Wow, I guess the grade school bullies love you." They could have fun without even having to break a sweat chasing him.

[nowheretorun]

Originally Posted by Lbien6

My T told me, yesterday (among other things, that are really stressing me out) that the world is divided into 2 kinds of people.

Fighters and Flighters.

People who avoid and people who fight.

He said he was a fighter and I was an avoider.

I think he might have been calling me a coward. I already feel like one. And he knows that. Why would he rub it in?
I'm kind of mad.

He also says he is about to terminate with me, cuz I told him I bought an SI tool. Even though I said I wasn't going to use it. I just got a little triggered yesterday and bought it. I should never have mentioned it. But I did, and now he is freaking.

I want to quit therapy now. But now I feel trapped. He is going to think I am quitting so I can go cut and feel he has to "take measures" . He said he would.

I am going to see him again on Monday, give him the tool, play all "normal" and get him off my back!!! Then I have to play all "normal" for a few more sessions. Then maybe I can quit and not be put in hospital involuntarily.

Gee I am glad I am in therapy. It is really working out well.

This is just great! NOT.

give peace a chance

the joy of the fight or flight response is that it depends on the situation...that's what keeps us alive...i'm 4'11 and fat like a beachball...but in my mind i think i'm strong like a bull...BUT yet i'm smart enough to realize there are some battles i shouldn't fight.

maybe your t is "calling you out"...trying to get your anger going...to see if he can push you into a better healing or coping response. maybe that's why he said such an idiotic thing.

honestly if i was a t (and i'm not, nor do i even play one on tv) and i was concerned about a patient i most certainly wouldn't word anything that way. and if i was concerned about you purchase of a tool to injure yourself i wouldn't tell you i would terminate you (maybe that is common practice) since to me that would escalate things.

if it was me...i would go back...and say to him..."this is what i think i heard you say the other day....am i correct?" and make him explain his actions a little bit. and ask him why would you ever say that to anyone...what would make you think that it would have any value therapueticly?

anway...this t does sound to me like some guy who definitely saw the wrong end of a bullies fist during lunch recess too many times.

signed
stumpy
(who while she knows the value of running and hiding thinks that she may have had to been forced to thump this t on the head if she saw him...just to see if he was really a "fighter")

[darkrunner]

((((((((((((((((Lbien)))))))))))))))))

I read your post a couple of times. I'm sorry you are going through such a tough time.

About the fight or flight - I think it isn't a good idea to label people as such. I agree with Chaotic.....that we all have both fight AND flight instincts. Maybe one is more dominant than the other, esp depending on the situation. I have time when I feel stronger and more ready for the fight, and then other times when I am weaker I want to give up and run away.

About the SI tool - I think it's strange he threatened to terminate because of it. Most Ts would try to work on the things that triggered you to buy the tool, and come up with alternate ways of coping and maybe a safety plan. Could you possibly talk this over with him? If he stands behind the termination threat, then maybe it would be best to find a new T who is willing to work more collaboratively with you.

Hang in there, Lbien, and stay safe.....

[winterbaby]

hmmmm...didn't some else happen with him a couple weeks ago...seem to remember it not being so nice...excuse me if I'm mistaken. It doesn't sound like he might be the T for you. Keep looking if you are not comfortable!

(((((((((((((((((((Lbien)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Wow, I'm sorry T threatened to terminate when you told him about the SI tool. That must feel really scary. He's obviously concerned, but like others have said, it feels like it would have been much more productive to talk about why you bought it, what you were feeling, what you could do with those feelings instead, etc. I know that T is frustrated when I SI (he has told me that) but I know he wouldn't terminate over it. Can you tell him how that made you feel? Do you WANT to?

What winterbaby said is true....sometimes a certain T is just not the right T for us. Are you usually satisfied with T and his responses???

(((((((((((((((((((Lbien))))))))))))))))))))))) Be gentle with you... We are here to listen...

[pachyderm]

My two cats will run without a second thought sometimes when they are scared. Are they "weaklings"? Are they "avoiders"? Maybe they have good sense, considering that they are not bigger than all possible creatures that might threaten them. Is there a place for different coping strategies that depend upon the nature of the danger?

[phoenix7]

I think we are all fighters and flighters in diff situations - when I was attacked I got eveyone else out while it was safe then ran when the guy came for me - brave - stupid- coward - some or all depending on the situation - talk to your T - tell him how he made you feel - maybe he was jsut trying to get a reaction - but it didnt work - mit only shut you down and thats not good - maybe if your talk isnt good - you could try to find another T....

[Berries]

yes, i will go on monday and talk to him. but if he is "not the one" i am done.
i can't do this anymore.
i just can't.

[tulips30]

Originally Posted by ktgirl

((((((((((((((((Lbien)))))))))))))))))


About the SI tool - I think it's strange he threatened to terminate because of it. Most Ts would try to work on the things that triggered you to buy the tool, and come up with alternate ways of coping and maybe a safety plan. Could you possibly talk this over with him? If he stands behind the termination threat, then maybe it would be best to find a new T who is willing to work more collaboratively with you.

Hang in there, Lbien, and stay safe.....

I totally agree. My t. and I have discussed SI many times. He is concerned when I mention this topic, but tells me that we need to talk about why I feel this way, what triggered it, and find other things I can do instead. He would never threaten to terminate me over that. The fact that your t. did threaten this bothers me a lot. How are you going to learn other ways to soothe yourself if t. won't help you with it?

tulips

[Berries]

I thought it might be helpful to me and I hope people don't mind, to show you the email my T sent.
I actually told him towards the end of the session that I had bought a SI tool. Our session was then cut short and so he asked me to email him about it. I just told him in he email, that I had had a rash and scratched until it bleed and then went out and bought the SI tool.
This was his response: (maybe I am overreacting or misinterpreting, so I thought it might be helpful if someone else read it and told me if I was)
Cutting crosses a line I am unwilling tolerate. I know this sounds preachy or judgmental, but I figure you'd better hear my position on cutting before start down that path. I am willing to have an understanding or contract of trust with you. which you have already started by telling me. here are the basics:

1. You may not stash or store edged weapons of any type. You either turn them over to me or throw them away (trust is everything here).

2. Cutting is automatic grounds for evaluation in an inpatient setting. (especially with you off meds). Obviously that would force you back into taking meds.

3. If you start cutting, you are choosing to terminate treatment with me. I reserve the right to evaluate any and every instance of cutting as to weather you will be terminated.

4. Failure to disclose your acting upon the urge to cut will be automatic grounds for termination because it would destroy trust. In that kind of environment, I couldnt treat you. No excuses or chances here. OK? I mean it.

Ok there might be other things to put boundaries on but thats it for now.

If you and I cant agree on a contract regarding this, it will block future treatment.

Sorry that this sounds stern or hard, but I feel its important to establish an understanding about this real soon. I wanted you to get this right away an I apologize if it makes you mad or upset. I just wanted to get this on the table before damage is done to our relationship.

Be prudent this weekend with anything you're planning and lets talk Monday. And yes, I still like you.

[nowheretorun]

L, im just a caring observer and i get that you are sensitive to this.. the letter has a stern tone and i can see that such a tone can cause a response in us that is sometimes the opposite of what we are feeling a need for... the sternness in this letter sends up a flag to me that the T has a high anxiety level on this subject and with the stern tone is attempting to make clear and uncertain rules regarding this matter... he ends with a kinder statement (the sorry etc...) and says he likes you... that is good T because he is making a clear rule and offering a hand of friendship with the ' i still like you' statement... jmo and i care

[madisgram]

what part of your therapy do you not like?, if you don't mind my asking.

[madisgram]

Originally Posted by Lbien6

I thought it might be helpful to me and I hope people don't mind, to show you the email my T sent.
I actually told him towards the end of the session that I had bought a SI tool. Our session was then cut short and so he asked me to email him about it. I just told him in he email, that I had had a rash and scratched until it bleed and then went out and bought the SI tool.
This was his response: (maybe I am overreacting or misinterpreting, so I thought it might be helpful if someone else read it and told me if I was)
Cutting crosses a line I am unwilling tolerate. I know this sounds preachy or judgmental, but I figure you'd better hear my position on cutting before start down that path. I am willing to have an understanding or contract of trust with you. which you have already started by telling me. here are the basics:

1. You may not stash or store edged weapons of any type. You either turn them over to me or throw them away (trust is everything here).

2. Cutting is automatic grounds for evaluation in an inpatient setting. (especially with you off meds). Obviously that would force you back into taking meds.

3. If you start cutting, you are choosing to terminate treatment with me. I reserve the right to evaluate any and every instance of cutting as to weather you will be terminated.

4. Failure to disclose your acting upon the urge to cut will be automatic grounds for termination because it would destroy trust. In that kind of environment, I couldnt treat you. No excuses or chances here. OK? I mean it.

Ok there might be other things to put boundaries on but thats it for now.

If you and I cant agree on a contract regarding this, it will block future treatment.

Sorry that this sounds stern or hard, but I feel its important to establish an understanding about this real soon. I wanted you to get this right away an I apologize if it makes you mad or upset. I just wanted to get this on the table before damage is done to our relationship.

Be prudent this weekend with anything you're planning and lets talk Monday. And yes, I still like you.

here's just my take on it...your T cannot help you if you do not comply with agreements you make with him. he's stating his boundaries for your continued relationship with you. as he stated it is based on mutual trust. i felll he wants to help you, help you. if you are not willing to agree with his 'contract" he's telling you he is uable to help you.
we as clients need to trust our T's and vice versa for them to help us. it's th key to our bettting better. hope this helps. please keep in mind this is mho and from the experiences i have had.

[Simcha]

Originally Posted by Lbien6

My T told me, yesterday (among other things, that are really stressing me out) that the world is divided into 2 kinds of people.

Fighters and Flighters.

People who avoid and people who fight.

He said he was a fighter and I was an avoider.

I think he might have been calling me a coward. I already feel like one. And he knows that. Why would he rub it in?
I'm kind of mad.

He also says he is about to terminate with me, cuz I told him I bought an SI tool. Even though I said I wasn't going to use it. I just got a little triggered yesterday and bought it. I should never have mentioned it. But I did, and now he is freaking.

I want to quit therapy now. But now I feel trapped. He is going to think I am quitting so I can go cut and feel he has to "take measures" . He said he would.

I am going to see him again on Monday, give him the tool, play all "normal" and get him off my back!!! Then I have to play all "normal" for a few more sessions. Then maybe I can quit and not be put in hospital involuntarily.

Gee I am glad I am in therapy. It is really working out well.

This is just great! NOT.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((Lbien6)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Take it easy on yourself---you are too hard on yourself when you feel bad.
I don't know what normal is, but it sounds boring.

Just be yourself, and hang in there. Never give up hope.

[imapatient]

This T sounds like a Neanderthal to me. His conception of the world sounds very simplistic and rigid, esp. for a T--who should have a more sophisticated understanding of human relations.

He's the guy who disclosed the name and number of another patient while you were in the office, right? I would've terminated right there, and this recent stuff is very problematic to me.

The flight or fight thing is overblown, a false dichotomy, and not necessarily related to your situation. People can do neither--they can stay and try to reason and act collaboratively, for one. A person can also just walk away having sized up the other person or situation and seeing if it’s not worth fighting or fleeing from. By putting the situation into flight or fight terms he's putting you on the spot, belittling you, trying to justify his behavior by labeling you as someone unwilling to face some realities. Maybe you just don't want to address them the way he wants you to, hence you leave. Perfectly rational and non-cowardly. If you are leaving to avoid facing your issues at all, that's a problem, but it's also completely subjective. Maybe he's not right for you, and instead of fighting with him, you don’t get into it without someone not worth the time. By framing things as he has—or the world as being a F or F world, he’s demonstrating his fight persona and is engaging in self-aggrandizement. You don't need to prove yourself to him--so I see self-abuse in the idea of seeing him a few more times to prove him wrong and then ending with him. Don't waste your time trying to convince a T that your behavior is healthy and proper if you plan on ending and disagree with him.

I don't get all of the SI stuff; it's not something I do. But what if every T refused to work with patients who SI, where would they go then? Would they have to go without therapy because they engage in a behavior that is part of why they need therapy to begin with? Lawyers represent people they know are guilty of murder--it seems far worse for T's (in general) to refuse to treat people for engaging in the behavior they need therapy for to help stop in the first place.

I'm bewildered by his ultimatum. For buying an instrument? Isn't every home equipped with multiple means to SI already? His threats just set things up so that you'll avoid not telling him important things or engaging in deception. We should all feel free to be open with our T's that they'll help us work on what we are dealing with. If a patient can't feel comfortable enough that they can be fully open and honest with their T, to the point of living under the strong--realistic--fear of termination--it's not a healthy relationship. It hurts the patient.

It is an ultimatum. A T shouldn't be in the business of controlling patients, which is what an ultimatum represents. T's should accept their patients as they are and try to help them change as they need/want. Refusing to treat if a T doesn't get his way is backwards to me. Dealing with people by issuing ultimatums can easily be immature and ego-centric. I don't know how serious your situation is or history with SI has been, but it seems over-controlling to me. And termination is the ultimate threat (in most ways). Would termination help you, or is threatening it a representation of a T who treats a patient like a child, like someone who should follow orders from him? Like the parent who tells the kid she'll abandon her if she doesn't behave. It sounds like a kind of cruel mind-game he's playing on you in order to control you.

Putting you in in-patient if you cut? There are hordes of people on this site who SI and I've never heard about a threat to commit for admitting to doing so. That's the other major threat to face from T--that they'll hospitalize you, so it, too, is a barrier to believing in your T. Assuming you’re not talking about something extreme.

I can't imagine that I'd ever have faith in this guy based on what you're written here.

Good luck in working with this very complicated, sensitive set of issues, but don’t feel like you need to please T, or be afraid to walk and find a new T. It's a lot of stress for anyoen to go through.

[phoenix7]

I hope things work out for you - keep us posted just me but he sounds as if he is trying to set some boundaries and its up to you whether you accept them - to me he sounds concerned jmo - let us know how you go

[darkrunner]

Wow - that email is intense.
I shared this experience in a different thread....but I thought I'd share it again in this thread, because
My T gave me the same kind of ultimatum.....but not in writing.
She made me promise to give my SI tool either to her or my H.
And she said that outpatient therapy is the lowest level of treatment and I have to be stable to be able to continue with her. The implication was that SI behavior means I am not stable.
She did not blatantly threaten termination, but to me the inference was clear.
At our next session, she did not inquire whether I did indeed surrender the SI tool, and she did not ask me if I had SI'd again.

But the truth is, what she said has been a good motivator for me - as I do want to continue seeing her. And I do NOT WANT to be hospitalized again.

I think the best thing you can do, is to talk about the issue with him....and try to explain all your feelings about it. You could even print out this thread and take it with you. After you talk to him about it, I'm sure it will be more clear what the right thing to do is.
Sending lots of hugs.....

[Simcha]

Originally Posted by ktgirl

Wow - that email is intense.
I shared this experience in a different thread....but I thought I'd share it again in this thread, because
My T gave me the same kind of ultimatum.....but not in writing.
She made me promise to give my SI tool either to her or my H.
And she said that outpatient therapy is the lowest level of treatment and I have to be stable to be able to continue with her. The implication was that SI behavior means I am not stable.
She did not blatantly threaten termination, but to me the inference was clear.
At our next session, she did not inquire whether I did indeed surrender the SI tool, and she did not ask me if I had SI'd again.

But the truth is, what she said has been a good motivator for me - as I do want to continue seeing her. And I do NOT WANT to be hospitalized again.

I think the best thing you can do, is to talk about the issue with him....and try to explain all your feelings about it. You could even print out this thread and take it with you. After you talk to him about it, I'm sure it will be more clear what the right thing to do is.
Sending lots of hugs.....

I wonder at what point does threat of inpatient commitment become punitive?

[Simcha]

Originally Posted by imapatient

This T sounds like a Neanderthal to me. His conception of the world sounds very simplistic and rigid, esp. for a T--who should have a more sophisticated understanding of human relations.

He's the guy who disclosed the name and number of another patient while you were in the office, right? I would've terminated right there, and this recent stuff is very problematic to me.

The flight or fight thing is overblown, a false dichotomy, and not necessarily related to your situation. People can do neither--they can stay and try to reason and act collaboratively, for one. A person can also just walk away having sized up the other person or situation and seeing if it’s not worth fighting or fleeing from. By putting the situation into flight or fight terms he's putting you on the spot, belittling you, trying to justify his behavior by labeling you as someone unwilling to face some realities. Maybe you just don't want to address them the way he wants you to, hence you leave. Perfectly rational and non-cowardly. If you are leaving to avoid facing your issues at all, that's a problem, but it's also completely subjective. Maybe he's not right for you, and instead of fighting with him, you don’t get into it without someone not worth the time. By framing things as he has—or the world as being a F or F world, he’s demonstrating his fight persona and is engaging in self-aggrandizement. You don't need to prove yourself to him--so I see self-abuse in the idea of seeing him a few more times to prove him wrong and then ending with him. Don't waste your time trying to convince a T that your behavior is healthy and proper if you plan on ending and disagree with him.

I don't get all of the SI stuff; it's not something I do. But what if every T refused to work with patients who SI, where would they go then? Would they have to go without therapy because they engage in a behavior that is part of why they need therapy to begin with? Lawyers represent people they know are guilty of murder--it seems far worse for T's (in general) to refuse to treat people for engaging in the behavior they need therapy for to help stop in the first place.

I'm bewildered by his ultimatum. For buying an instrument? Isn't every home equipped with multiple means to SI already? His threats just set things up so that you'll avoid not telling him important things or engaging in deception. We should all feel free to be open with our T's that they'll help us work on what we are dealing with. If a patient can't feel comfortable enough that they can be fully open and honest with their T, to the point of living under the strong--realistic--fear of termination--it's not a healthy relationship. It hurts the patient.

It is an ultimatum. A T shouldn't be in the business of controlling patients, which is what an ultimatum represents. T's should accept their patients as they are and try to help them change as they need/want. Refusing to treat if a T doesn't get his way is backwards to me. Dealing with people by issuing ultimatums can easily be immature and ego-centric. I don't know how serious your situation is or history with SI has been, but it seems over-controlling to me. And termination is the ultimate threat (in most ways). Would termination help you, or is threatening it a representation of a T who treats a patient like a child, like someone who should follow orders from him? Like the parent who tells the kid she'll abandon her if she doesn't behave. It sounds like a kind of cruel mind-game he's playing on you in order to control you.

Putting you in in-patient if you cut? There are hordes of people on this site who SI and I've never heard about a threat to commit for admitting to doing so. That's the other major threat to face from T--that they'll hospitalize you, so it, too, is a barrier to believing in your T. Assuming you’re not talking about something extreme.

I can't imagine that I'd ever have faith in this guy based on what you're written here.

Good luck in working with this very complicated, sensitive set of issues, but don’t feel like you need to please T, or be afraid to walk and find a new T. It's a lot of stress for anyoen to go through.

I have to say I agree with everything you say here imapatient.

I don't think SI is safe or healthy by any means, and I don't exactly know the right treatment for it, but threats like this only hurt the relationship and inhibit the most important aspect of successful therapy--trust.

Everything about this therapist says red flag city.

There has to be better ways to deal with this than that, don't you think?

[imapatient]

Originally Posted by Simcha

I wonder at what point does threat of inpatient commitment become punitive?

Exactly. And who is the ostensible authority to appeal to if one thinks that might be what's going on? The potential for Soviet-style involuntary commitment/power struggles not based ideology and turf, but still in part on dissent, is possible but at the level of an individual psychiatrist rather than the State. And: Who guards the guardians?

[sunrise]

I really disagree with his "fight or flight" comments. Sounds like he is trying to shame you into behaving in a "fight" manner, which for some reason he considers superior to "flight".

He also says he is about to terminate with me, cuz I told him I bought an SI tool.

I don't really understand this approach. If a therapist will terminate a client for SI, then where are they supposed to go to get help? I agree with what others have said, that he should be exploring WHY you felt the need to buy the SI tool. Maybe if he understood WHY you have the urge to SI, he could help you work on that problem. SI is just a symptom, not the problem itself.

I found it a flag of sorts when he mentioned meds in his contract, "especially with you off meds", and how he says you would be forced to take meds as an inpatient. It seems like if he believes you should be taking meds, he should talk to you about it in a direct way and explain his reasoning. I am wondering if this is referring back to a conversation you and he have had before. I know you have posted before about challenges you face now that you are not taking meds that you did take for a long time.

I hear a lot of anxiety in his contract, his behavior, his mention of meds. I think he is really worried about you and trying everything he can to help. Maybe this contract and threatening you with termination weren't the best approach, but I hear some desperation in this and a strong desire to help you stay safe. I think he should get some supervision on this.

[my3sns]

I have to agree with some of the others here , and say that i dont think we necessarily fit into , just one or the other catagory. In different circumstances i can be seen as both. I think to be so ready to stereotype people into just one or the other is restricting to them. And whos to say that flight is always the wrong answer( which is what was indicated to me in the post)... sometimes flight is the smartest way to go.
I also dont like the threat to terminate therapy , because you choose to buy an SI tool. It seems to me that was a perfect time for him to encourage you to work on different coping stratagies and to also encourage you to talk more about the feelings that you were having , as to why you felt the need to have this tool. Therapy isnt something that we should be in fear of (particulary being afraid that if we say or do the wrong thing , then we will be locked up). In my opinion thats just contradictory of therapy.

[chaotic13]

I would just have trouble talking to some one and being honest with them about my behaviors when they turn around an threaten me with what I disclosed. I am so grateful that my T has not seen the need to threaten me with termination. I don't this with would have help build a connection between us at all.