[peaches100]

I just realized why the subject of touch is raring up inside me again. I went to a spiritual convention over the weekend, and I saw one of my former friends, who was like a mother to me (not the one that kept my writings). We were close for 15 years, and because there is a 30-year age difference, it seemed OK to have a sort of mother/daughter component to it. Well anyway, I lost her friendship at the same time I lost the other friend. (They teamed up together to "straighten me out.") Anyway, as I've written before, it has been a very, very painful thing for me to come to grips with (losing them both as friends), and I've never really had any closure.

Well, this weekend, at the convention, I saw her talking to my mother-in-law. It was really hard for me to stay away because I'd heard that she was looking for me, and, having been so close with her before, there's a part of me that really misses the relationship with her. But I stayed away because I know that her controllingness and how she overstepped my boundaries before really hurt me. So in a way, i know it was not a healthy relationship. But still, she seemed to really love me and care about me. She told my mother-in-law once that i had been like a daughter to her.

Well so, I avoided her at the convention. Once I saw her walk away from my mother-in-law, I went back to my sit. My mother-in-law told me she had said, "Peaches is avoiding me. I'm going to give her a big hug whether she wants me to or not." So, a part of me knows she still cares and that i could have a relationship with her again if i really wanted to.

Anyway, this whole thing plays into what's going on with my t right now. It's so confusing. On the one hand, there's this friend who was in my "real life," cares about me, and wants to hug me. But from what t has told me, it is not a healthy relationship. So I avoided her finding me and hugging me.

On the other hand, there's my t who I want to hug me, and she doesn't want to do it. She might care about me, but she can't be my friend and is not going to stay in my life.

It seems like if I need a nurturing relationship so much, and t is resistant, and my friend is not, then maybe i would be better off to resume my relationship with my friend. then again, i know she really hurt me.

i am so confused.

[rainbow8]

Peaches, it makes sense to me that your experience with your former friend is triggering the reaction to your feelings about hugging your T. Like you said, there is someone who wants to hug you, but you aren't sure you want her to, and then there is your T from whom you want a hug, but she is not making the overtures. I would find this frustrating!

I agree that your relationship with that person was not totally healthy if it was a mother/daughter kind of thing. Because you would have liked that kind of relationship with your own mother, it probably involves some transference, and was not a reciprocal relationship. I think you need to be in friendships that are reciprocal, with someone more your equal. Do you think so?

I know you hold onto old hurts but I think that part of it can sometimes be let go of. If you forgive her, you could have that relationship again. But I don't think it would be good for you. I can see why it's so confusing to you. Can you tell your T about seeing this woman and ask what she thinks again?

I know you can work this out, but I do think you deserve better than being in another dependent, needy relationship. I understand the longings for it, though.

[chaotic13]

I think what you are seeking...a nurturing, healthy relationship with someone who really cares and wants and is able to interact with you in a personal (not professional) relationship.... is very healthy. Hopefully you are not putting yourself down for wanting this.

Maybe you can use the professional relationship you have with your T work on how to develop and create these nurturing healty relationship with other people in your church, family, or to create new friendships. One major advantage I've gained through therapy is learning how to recognize people around you that have... good friendship potential.

When I first started therapy I was very depressed and feeling totally alone and isolated from the world. I eventually realize..I wasn't really isolated and alone...I just had totally shut down and couldn't see the that I had people around me that would make good friends... if only I would take a few small steps to connect better with them. I can't tell you how many times I've found find myself ... "knee deep in a river, and dying of thirst"

When you write about your congregation... it sounds like a really supportive group..I bet there are other people (other than the two you mentioned) that would make great friends who could support, hug, occasionally drag you out of bed on bad days, and do all the other caring things friends can do but therapist can't. From your postings here..you seem like you would have a lot to offer a friend in return too.

Even a touch freak like me sees that touch (especially safe, supportive, positive touch) is an important human need.

[ECHOES]

chaotic13 wrote:

Maybe you can use the professional relationship you have with your T work on how to develop and create these nurturing healty relationship with other people

This kind of relationship is what I crave also. T tells me I can find it, or components of it in other people in my life. I trust her but have a hard time believing it (THESE people in MY life?!?! lol ).

[chaotic13]

Echoes.... maybe THESE people (people with good friend potential) are not currently in your life. But we meet and see new people every day. Maybe some of the skills you've been practicing in therapy can help you make connections outside your existing circle?

Here is a really good example I had recently that would have NEVER happened in...the time before T. My kids play sports so often I end up sitting on some sideline doing work,reading, posting messages on PC, or engaging in superficial chatting with another parents who are bored too. Well one evening, one of the other ...soccer moms made a casual comment that captured the attention of the deeper me. Amazingly I actually responded from this deeper me with a little deeper than expected response. I could tell by the woman's expression that my response surprized her but we both just kind of let the conversation go. Then two weeks later, this women calls me up out of the blue (had gotten my phone number from another parent) and invites me to her home for a small informal gathering to discuss spirituality kind of stuff...Well, this totally shocked me, but reluctantly accepted the invitation. I've gone to a few get togethers at her house and really enjoyed the interactions. We are now friends and although I am still very protective of my inner circle...she has good friend potential.

The bottom line is... 2 years ago, I wouldn't have had a "deep" response--my depth was locked deep inside. Also, I wouldn't have projected a positive enough vibe to appear approachable or remotely interested to even be invited to a spirituality discussion. Also when I received the unexpected call... I would not have had the ability work through my resistance to accepting the invitation. Finally, there would have been no way in hell that I would have had the confidence to actually show up and talk about my beliefs with a bunch of total strangers.

So, prior to T the potential for me making this connection and converting it into a friendship would have been very unlikely. People are out there looking for nurturing, stimulating, engaging friends too. We just have to be able to see them and then risk taking actions to make a connection.

This makes me think about renting the Morgan Freemen movie "Ten Items or Less" again. I LOVE THAT MOVIE!

[peaches100]

Rainbow,

I think you're right that there was possibly some transference in my relationship with C. But unlike the other relationship with E, it wasn't entirely dependent. I was friends with C. for 10+ years and the relationship wasn't based on taking any problems to her or asking for help. We went in the ministry together, went to lunch, garage saling, etc. However, it DID have a mother-daughter feel to it, probably because she is 30 years older than I am (we first became friends when I was 20 and she was 50). I think because of the age difference, it was somewhat to be expected, and I do not think it was dysfunctional. Where I got into trouble with C. was years later, when E. was helping me with my depression and marital problems. E consulted C., and that is when both of them became too involved in my personal problems, became controlling, and crossed my boundaries to the point that both friendships ended.

I think that deep down, I still WANT a relationship with an older woman that has a mother-daughter feel to it. If I could have that, and keep it reciprocal, I don't see any problem with it. My husband would disagree though. He thinks any type of mother-friend is "not natural." Based on what happened with C. and E., he is VERY MUCH against my forming another attachment with a nurturing older woman. I guess I need to talk to my t about whether that could be an option for me and still be healthy.

I agree with you that I need some reciprocal peer relationships with people my own age. I have had a few of these in the past, and though I can't say I found them nearly as satisfying as the mother-daughter type relationships, they had their place. All of them have since moved away and we have not kept in touch now for many years.

In my current congregation, I've held back in forming any new friendships (because of the deep pain of losing E. and C.) However, I've started to be a bit friendly with 2 or 3 women my age, who I chat with a little bit before or after congregation meetings. I have also gone out in the ministry with them once. I have also attended one congregation get-together, where I interacted briefly and superficially with a few people. As yet, I have not done anything socially one-on-one with anybody in my congregation. To be honest, I just don't feel ready for that. I'm too nervous about letting anybody that close to me, or get to know my inner self right now. I'm trying to trust again and take baby steps, but I know that if somebody in my congregation asked me to go to lunch or shopping, I would make an excuse not to go. I'm just too scared.

I'm pretty sure I have forgiven both C. and E. I really do not think I'm angry about it. But the problem is that when i think about them and the way it ended, I still HURT inside. I don't know what would make the hurting go away. It has been a few years now, and the hurt is still deep. Does this mean I've not truly forgiven? It just feels like a deep wound that has never healed.

I plan to talk to my t tomorrow about C. and how she is still showing interest in my life and wanting to talk to me/hug me. I avoided her Saturday because I know how the relationship has hurt me in the past and has shown she can't respect my boundaries. But I know she loved me and probably still does, in her way, and it's hard to let go of a 10+ year relationship. I guess that, considering she and my husband can't stand each other, and she urged me to separate from him (and he knows this), trying to be friends with her again would never work. But I still love and miss her.

It's very, very hard to dodge a hug from C. when the little girl part of me has been so desperate for a hug with my t and has not been able to get one.

Ugh! This is so hard. . .

[peaches100]

Hi Chaotic,

I hear what you're saying about taking what i learn from my relationship with t and transferring it to people in my 3D life who are potentially healthy friends. I guess what I'm still not clear on is if it is wrong/dysfunctional to want an older woman as a friend who feels kind of like a mother to me? The Bible speaks of finding "fathers and mothers and sisters and brothers" in the congregation. I believe that David and Jonathon were many years apart in age. Why couldn't I have that with a friend? My mom is not able to show or share emotions with me, or let me emotionally close to her. I don't want to give up on having a relationship with someone like what I've always needed since childhood.

I admit I've done the same thing you did. . .isolated myself from some people who reached out to show compassion or extend friendship to me when I was very depressed. I'm not sure why I did it, but i remember feeling that they would not understand my situation. Because i hadn't formed a friendship with them before my breakdown, i didn't feel inclined to do it when i was struggling. I certainly did not think they would understand. Like you, I also was "knee deep in a river, and dying of thirst"

Unfortunately, when things came crashing down with my two close friends, I had no other social suppport. I realized later that, in looking through one of my dresser drawers, I had received a half-dozen cards from people in my congregation when i first got depressed. But aside from thanking them for the card, i did not draw close to them or confide anything to them about what i was going through. I pretty much avoided them altogether. I feel bad about this now. But I just remember feeling like I needed somebody older, wiser, and like a mother to help me sort out the madness i was going through.

Also, the ones who sent me cards, most of them I'd not had any more than a superficial relationship with them. i really didn't want other people to know my "dirty laundry." i had so much anxiety and shame about memories that were coming back to me. how could i even try to explain what was happening to me? I felt scared and ashamed and just "weird," and i was terrified to let anybody else know about my weirdness.

I just feel like the whole episode has left me damaged. I don't know what it will take to heal the pain of friends I've lost and learn to trust and gain new healthy friends. i feel lonely so much of the time, but when i think about being close with anyone, i'm terrified. Even with my t, as much as i tell her i want her to physically comfort me, whenever she gets closer to me i freeze up. that is why she says i seem ambivalent about it, as though part of me wants that and part of me is threatened by it.

[Sannah]

We can actually run from healthy relationships and those are the ones that we need to pursue. When I realized that I did this I explored why I did it and I was able to move beyond it. Peaches, you probably come across healthy potential friends frequently but your subconscious moves you along quickly and gets you outta there...........

Being in relationships with people who cross boundaries is not a good idea especially when you are vulnerable.

Heck, I'm dealing with a woman now on a board that I am on who is crossing my boundaries and it is very challenging!

[RiverX]

had said, "Peaches is avoiding me. I'm going to give her a big hug whether she wants me to or not." So, a part of me knows she still cares and that i could have a relationship with her again if i really wanted to.

But heres a clue, does this mean she still cares?
..... I dont hear a concern about what has been going on, like thinking,/ questioning as you do.

Was there some kind of relational bargain going on in the dynamics of these relationships that wasnt actually as caring as it says on the packaging ?
Like the caring is as long as you comply, then thier 'investment' simply jumps ships?

.......harsh, I know. I struggle myself with similar ...!

r.