[moooo2u]

You may be mad at me thinking I'm ignoring the problem and acting like nothing is wrong but as I've already told you, I've come to you at least 3-4 times to try to work things out and move on and all that you do is continue to beat me over the head with what you believe I have done. I've tried to find ways to move forward but you will have none of it. You have said that you have left me and are still here only because you can't leave. Which is not really true - you could go live with your mother but that's just not really an option is it. Why?

The therapist tells me that you seem to be unhappy with yourself and that you project that onto me. You may have thought the joint sessions were all about changing me and I never had asked her what she saw but did this past session and what she saw was someone who twisted things. You appear confident but really are not. You should seek counseling on your own, she says. As I become 'better' or 'stronger' and begin to stand up for myself and accept that my feelings have value, you have a harder time dealing with it. The therapist has clearly stated that I need to stop taking all the blame and when I stop taking all the blame, relations with you break down because everything is fine as long as I am willing to accept that I am the one at fault. Unfortunately, we've seen that this only works for a short time - things only get better for a little while - in therapy or not so far but this past visit I expressed that I'm not taking all the blame this time and that's the way its got to be and that is what therapy is going to help me with - to be better and stronger and to believe in myself.


I have realized that you will not change. You talk about me not giving you what you need but you certainly do not give me what I need. You don't even remotely seem to understand what my issues are. I have spent my entire life trying to please people, to avoid contact, and to constantly be afraid of what people think of me. I'm not sure you can really grasp the impact of that because it was hard for me to. I have become someone who does not feel that he is worthy to be around anyone. Are you aware that your constant bashing me over the head and telling me that the problem is with me and that I need to change, just drives this home even more?

What this latest fight has underscored is that you are not concerned with my feelings and seemingly don't see that as your problem and something you need to change. You use my feelings against me and twist them so that rather than dealing with them, you claim they hurt you and that I should not have those feelings if I really loved you. I am entitled to my feelings and as someone who loves me, you should be willing to work with me on them. When I say I feel that you take and that you manipulate, I understand that this hurts because I've been on the reiceing end of comments like this for years. My response is to look inside myself and try to fix the problem - whether I see it as a problem in me or not. Your response is to say my feelings are wrong and hurtful and just shows that I don't love you. A more appropriate response would be to accept that I have my feelings and try to lovingly work with me to show they are not true.

Before therapy I always tried to do the right thing, so I thought, and change myself for you and that failed. During therapy I also still tried to change myself and ended up with the same result - you being angry with me. This has led me to realize that there is no way. Nothing will ever be just right or good enough. In that respect, no, I can never meet your needs.


I'm done with it. I know that I am not a bad person. I know that I can offer people something beyond trying to please them - or at least I know I need to know that and I'm working to believe that - I'm not entirely convinced yet but I am convinced that I need to work at learning this. I do very little for myself. I know that I have to be happy with me for me. The things I need to change about me are things I see I need to change. I've lived my life for others and have destroyed myself and am miserable and I need to start doing things for myself and being a little selfish. I need to stop fearing life.

It makes me sad that you will likely take my being miserable as a personal affront and an insult to you and rather than you wrapping me up in your arms and helping me though it, you will be angry. You of course would deny that but when have you ever listened to my saying I need help and then being there for me and trying to help me for me? This is how I feel and rather than getting angry about it, you need to deal with it. You behavior the past few weeks shows me that you will not deal with.

You always call me 'a party of one' as an insult - that hurts. Yes, I am independent and I'm quite proud of that fact - I can do many things and don't really have to rely on too many people but that's a side-effect of not being able to interact with people and I've taken it too far. What do I really do on my own? I run/walk and I'd like to remind you that I've often asked you to go with me. Lately I've been doing the WII Yoga - I like to do that alone because I'm afraid of what you all will think of me even though I know I don't really need to worry about such things - still I think I look ridiculous and would for now until I become better at it prefer to do it alone but then even if I invited you to do it with me, would you? No. What else do I do as a party of one? I work on the house. I've told you repeatedly since working on the bathroom that I need a partner in that not someone who harasses me and what is your response - certainly not to help. I work alone - maybe you think because I work from home that I should spend more time with you rather than work. Its a job, I get paid enough to barely keep us afloat and I have to work at it. Let's look at a couple of other things that you call me a party of one. Motorcycles are one - how much do I actually ride? Never really and when I do they are short local rides. One reason that I got a motorcycle was to try to break free from my fears and it only really stands out as another example of my fears. Want to ride my motorcycle with me? - I'm not sure that would work. So maybe I should have bought a Harley but as much as I'd like to be part of that image, its not really me. The Corvette? I bought that as much for the kids as I did for me - and to spend my improperly used IRA money on something for me before it was all pissed away. Do I really go too many places alone in the vette "to be a party of one" - no not really. I will go to some car shows alone but only if no one will go with me - I like taking one of the kids along with me for those. You hate riding in it. It is nice to go out for a drive alone but how often do I really do that? Again as with the motorcycle, not often.

Also maybe because after a stressful day my way of dealing with it is to find some peace and quiet and you have problem with that because I should want to relieve stress by being with you because that's what you'd want - you said exactly that to me. You say that I should curl up with you and have that be a stress relief rather than something that causes stress. Yes, you cause me stress and instead of working with me on why and being sympathetic, you beat me over the head with it and insist its something wrong with me. Maybe that's why you cause me stress - anything that I do that is not exactly right is used to berate and beat me with - that is how I feel so what are you going to do to help me feel better. Nothing. Its up to me to make my own happiness just as it is for you to make your own happiness. We can find happiness together but its not my responsibility to ensure you are happy and its not your responsibility to ensure that I am happy.


I'm a party of one because you don't want to become part of my world.

There is much that I want to do with you. Go places, lead a happy life, picnic by the beach, go to wineries. There is always the pressure to perform and do the right thing or face your wrath. Part of that pressure comes from my need to want to please people of course extends to you - doubly so, but part of it is also the very real problem that doing the "wrong" thing lately results in weeks if not months of your wrath and anger. It is terrible to live that way. I'm sure you also say that its terrible to live constantly not being shown love but I say that's often because you don't see it your way.

Stamp and Send~

[hamster-bamster]

I will post more after finishing reading your draft, but in the meantime, I am unsure whether you meant "contact" or "conflict":

"I have spent my entire life trying to please people, to avoid contact, and to constantly be afraid of what people think of me."

[hamster-bamster]

The content looks good. There are some typos and a few grammar/style lapses, but given that the audience is your wife only, I would send "as is". Don't belabor it more.

Good luck being heard!

[Anika.]

I dunno, this part is sticking out to me tho... "*I'm sure you also say that its terrible to live constantly not being shown love but I say that's often because you don't see it your way." Doesn't that seem to be the same thing you are complaining about her doing to you? Her feelings on that issue doesn't count or is wrong, she is not entitled to feel that way because it's just in her head kinda vibe.

If you really want this to work you also have to take some responsability for some things you do too. I know you feel like she has put all the blame on you, and maybe she has. But doing the same back isn't going to get this solved either. You both have issues that sound important and worthy of looking at honestly together. I know you need to not take all the blame and stick up for yourself. But don't go so far the other way where you match what you feel she is doing wrong.

What I am getting reading this is that you only need to work on sticking up for yourself and nothing more. You talk about what her appropriate response should be to your feelings ( care and work with you on it), but the letter sounds like you are not willing to do the same with her feelings ( it's her own problem she feels like you dont sgow affection, suck it up). I dunno that is my take on the letter, not trying to be critical just trying to help. I know you didn't say suck it up, but it seems implied that you don't care about that and it is not your concern.

[Leed]

Hey my friend ~ I say KUDOS to you. From what I can tell, you've put up with this crap for a lot of years. From the sound of it, she's been beating you over the head with your own emotions, as if you're not entitled to them, yet SHE IS. So you're supposed to "cater" to her and make things all hunky-dory for her? I don't think so! I think she's used and abused you long enough.

I'm glad the therapist is pretty much on your side and can see that your wife has been manipulating you for years. Trouble is your WIFE can't see it. So where do you go from here? You certainly can't live like this.

I hope the therapist can get thru to her -- she needs INDIVIDUAL counseling. I think you're pretty darn sane enough. And from what I can tell, you've been more than willing to work things out for years. It's HER turn now.

I don't know what to tell you my friend. But I sure would NOT live like this for another how-ever-many years you've been married. You've wasted enough time, and you're too nice a guy to waste any more. God bless and please take care. Hugs, Lee

[moooo2u]

Originally Posted by Anika.

I dunno, this part is sticking out to me tho... "*I'm sure you also say that its terrible to live constantly not being shown love but I say that's often because you don't see it your way." Doesn't that seem to be the same thing you are complaining about her doing to you? Her feelings on that issue doesn't count or is wrong, she is not entitled to feel that way because it's just in her head kinda vibe.

If you really want this to work you also have to take some responsability for some things you do too. I know you feel like she has put all the blame on you, and maybe she has. But doing the same back isn't going to get this solved either. You both have issues that sound important and worthy of looking at honestly together. I know you need to not take all the blame and stick up for yourself. But don't go so far the other way where you match what you feel she is doing wrong.

What I am getting reading this is that you only need to work on sticking up for yourself and nothing more. You talk about what her appropriate response should be to your feelings ( care and work with you on it), but the letter sounds like you are not willing to do the same with her feelings ( it's her own problem she feels like you dont sgow affection, suck it up). I dunno that is my take on the letter, not trying to be critical just trying to help. I know you didn't say suck it up, but it seems implied that you don't care about that and it is not your concern.

Thank you. I understand what you are getting at and I will definitely give that some thought. I have always put a great deal of work into meeting her needs and doing so always required some change on my part. I'm not a particularly emotional person and am not very expressive and I never have been. Part of my going to therapy was to try to work on that but I need to do it because I find it a flaw in myself not something that may or may not please my wife. Therapist says that if I'm ok with it and don't feel the need to change then its part of who I am that my wife needs to accept if she actually loves ME.

One of the issues is that wife insists that "her perception is her reality" - and that is true - but at what point "her perception of things" become the problem? With some people - narcissists, for example - a person can try and try to please them but ultimately never can. That's one thing that I'm learning to deal with in therapy.

I don't know a lot about relationships - mine have generally been long and rocky. It seems to me that two people should accept each other for who they are and be happy in that and neither has to change but there can be compromise to meet in the middle when necessary but at the end of the day, each person is confident and strong in who they are. That's a bit naive I guess. What I see here is one person who is not strong and one person who is incredibly strong but the person who is not strong is trying to get stronger and that is causing problems. My therapist, who has seen us both, thinks that maybe my wife is not actually strong at all but all this is a front to massive insecurity so maybe we both have massive insecurity and deal with it in different ways.

I don't know really. I will edit the letter because I think what you state as your concern needs to be addressed in the letter.

[moooo2u]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

The content looks good. There are some typos and a few grammar/style lapses, but given that the audience is your wife only, I would send "as is". Don't belabor it more.

Good luck being heard!

I re-read it and am embarrassed at some of the grammar issues - I'll have to fix those.

[moooo2u]

Originally Posted by Leed

Hey my friend ~ I say KUDOS to you. From what I can tell, you've put up with this crap for a lot of years. From the sound of it, she's been beating you over the head with your own emotions, as if you're not entitled to them, yet SHE IS. So you're supposed to "cater" to her and make things all hunky-dory for her? I don't think so! I think she's used and abused you long enough.

I'm glad the therapist is pretty much on your side and can see that your wife has been manipulating you for years. Trouble is your WIFE can't see it. So where do you go from here? You certainly can't live like this.

I hope the therapist can get thru to her -- she needs INDIVIDUAL counseling. I think you're pretty darn sane enough. And from what I can tell, you've been more than willing to work things out for years. It's HER turn now.

I don't know what to tell you my friend. But I sure would NOT live like this for another how-ever-many years you've been married. You've wasted enough time, and you're too nice a guy to waste any more. God bless and please take care. Hugs, Lee

Thank you - that's exactly what I needed to hear. My hope is that it is true but I still have that nagging voice in my head telling me I'm wrong.

[Anika.]

I don't think it's naive to think peoole should accept each other and comprimise and meet in the middle on most things. I think that is the right idea.

What your T said I agree too, often people are controlling because they are insecure and feel weak not strong.

My only real point was that because you do admit to having a hars time expressing emotion that there might be some merit to your wife's claim about her not feeling like you show affection.

The problem with, I will work on it only if I feel like it is a problem as I see it is this. You have many issues with your wifes behaviour, and they seem warrented, but if she takes the opinion that she doesn't need to work on it cause she is ok with it, doesn't fix anything. If you take that opinion than it's good for her too. But our spouces feelings do matter. And often it isn't just ...the other persons perception is all wrong, sometimes sure. But sometimes there is merit in what they are feeling.

If you did nit express that you know you have trouble with expressing this stuff I wouldn't urge you to see if you can or should work on that one point she brings up.

The rest of it I really do agree with you. I have been a similiar position as you in a relationship. Where I was constantly bending and shapeshifting trying to please someone. Some people cannot be pleased. If this relationship ended tho, and say you eventually met someone else, you don't want the love and affection thing to repeat which is why it really is doing it for yourself.

I wish you the best no matter the outcome. I hope you keep us updated.

I am glad you have a therapist to work with you on this cause its not easy. You can really feel like you are going mad in this stuff. Trust yourself tho, try not to second guess to much. Yoy will come out a healthier happier individual for all this hard work.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by moooo2u

Thank you - that's exactly what I needed to hear. My hope is that it is true but I still have that nagging voice in my head telling me I'm wrong.

Isn't that what you are supposed to be working on? If the letter is supposed to be from you to your wife, I would not get us involved. We cannot bolster your self esteem, it is yours alone to bolster, to decide what you like, what you want to say, that you have said it how you want it said and that it says what you want to say.

It sounds to me, had I written the letter and was reviewing it for myself, there's a "snatching" back and blaming the other, both, going on. One minute it sounds like you are saying you give too much without getting and the next it sounds like you are complaining you are not able to give to others, are too worried about pleasing others and yet are a "party of one"/self-sufficient. I found that interesting but confusing.

What is your purpose in writing the letter? If your wife does not understand, seems to you incapable of understanding, I would write a more succinct letter, "I'm done" :-) But it sounds a little like you are doing a bit of trading off, "you hurt me by telling me I'm hurting you" and trying to cover all bases, keep the relationship and "argument" going, apologize while blaming. I feel the letter as if you were a car spinning your wheels?

You paint an idyllic, "picnic by the beach, wineries" as if you are goodness and light and your title and much of the first paragraphs talks about how angry and negative your wife is. I don't see any middle ground to work with, anything the letter "helps" with? Clearly your wife blames you for "everything" and here, in this letter you try to not just make yourself less blameful but are ready for picnics by the beach if only she wouldn't be all angry and blaming.

I don't think either of you are the whole problem with the relationship but one of my favorite sayings is, "Instead of fixing the blame, fix the problem".

You have to know who you are and what you want. I'm not talking picnic, I'm talking only focusing on you and your own actions. Whether your wife learns or grows or changes or gets worse or loves or hates you is not your problem, only what you do.

If you have "had it", then you have to act like that. If your wife yells at you, you have to say, "I do not wish to talk to you when you are yelling" and you walk away. You have to enforce what you want, draw a line, set a boundary. You do not talk to people who are yelling.

If you do not wish to be with your wife, you leave. You don't worry about whether she can or would like to live with her mother or what she will do, you do what you need to do, only for you. You go to a lawyer and protect what you need to live, what is "fair", what shows "you" to yourself and the world and the man you wish to be/become and you find somewhere else to live, you sell all your assets and split them, you talk with her about what she would need to leave if she wants to leave rather than get snide about her reasons for not going to live with her mother. You concentrate on the actions, instead of just the swirling feelings and words.

[moooo2u]

Originally Posted by Anika.

I don't think it's naive to think peoole should accept each other and comprimise and meet in the middle on most things. I think that is the right idea.

What your T said I agree too, often people are controlling because they are insecure and feel weak not strong.

My only real point was that because you do admit to having a hars time expressing emotion that there might be some merit to your wife's claim about her not feeling like you show affection.

The problem with, I will work on it only if I feel like it is a problem as I see it is this. You have many issues with your wifes behaviour, and they seem warrented, but if she takes the opinion that she doesn't need to work on it cause she is ok with it, doesn't fix anything. If you take that opinion than it's good for her too. But our spouces feelings do matter. And often it isn't just ...the other persons perception is all wrong, sometimes sure. But sometimes there is merit in what they are feeling.

If you did nit express that you know you have trouble with expressing this stuff I wouldn't urge you to see if you can or should work on that one point she brings up.

The rest of it I really do agree with you. I have been a similiar position as you in a relationship. Where I was constantly bending and shapeshifting trying to please someone. Some people cannot be pleased. If this relationship ended tho, and say you eventually met someone else, you don't want the love and affection thing to repeat which is why it really is doing it for yourself.

I wish you the best no matter the outcome. I hope you keep us updated.

I am glad you have a therapist to work with you on this cause its not easy. You can really feel like you are going mad in this stuff. Trust yourself tho, try not to second guess to much. Yoy will come out a healthier happier individual for all this hard work.

thank you. you have a very valid point and I'll work on that in therapy -trying to understand why I am not incredibly emotive (but, hey, I cry during parts of Les Mis! - the show and the movie) - and how I might be able to improve that. I would certainly not want that to become a problem in another relationship - one of my favorite sayings is "the only common element to all your failed relationships is you". As for finding someone else, my plan would be to try to not get involved again. Ever.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by moooo2u

thank you. you have a very valid point and I'll work on that in therapy -trying to understand why I am not incredibly emotive (but, hey, I cry during parts of Les Mis! - the show and the movie)

You are incredibly emotive. I fell asleep watching the movie.

[moooo2u]

Originally Posted by Perna

Isn't that what you are supposed to be working on? If the letter is supposed to be from you to your wife, I would not get us involved. We cannot bolster your self esteem, it is yours alone to bolster, to decide what you like, what you want to say, that you have said it how you want it said and that it says what you want to say.

It sounds to me, had I written the letter and was reviewing it for myself, there's a "snatching" back and blaming the other, both, going on. One minute it sounds like you are saying you give too much without getting and the next it sounds like you are complaining you are not able to give to others, are too worried about pleasing others and yet are a "party of one"/self-sufficient. I found that interesting but confusing.

What is your purpose in writing the letter? If your wife does not understand, seems to you incapable of understanding, I would write a more succinct letter, "I'm done" :-) But it sounds a little like you are doing a bit of trading off, "you hurt me by telling me I'm hurting you" and trying to cover all bases, keep the relationship and "argument" going, apologize while blaming. I feel the letter as if you were a car spinning your wheels?

You paint an idyllic, "picnic by the beach, wineries" as if you are goodness and light and your title and much of the first paragraphs talks about how angry and negative your wife is. I don't see any middle ground to work with, anything the letter "helps" with? Clearly your wife blames you for "everything" and here, in this letter you try to not just make yourself less blameful but are ready for picnics by the beach if only she wouldn't be all angry and blaming.

I don't think either of you are the whole problem with the relationship but one of my favorite sayings is, "Instead of fixing the blame, fix the problem".

You have to know who you are and what you want. I'm not talking picnic, I'm talking only focusing on you and your own actions. Whether your wife learns or grows or changes or gets worse or loves or hates you is not your problem, only what you do.

If you have "had it", then you have to act like that. If your wife yells at you, you have to say, "I do not wish to talk to you when you are yelling" and you walk away. You have to enforce what you want, draw a line, set a boundary. You do not talk to people who are yelling.

If you do not wish to be with your wife, you leave. You don't worry about whether she can or would like to live with her mother or what she will do, you do what you need to do, only for you. You go to a lawyer and protect what you need to live, what is "fair", what shows "you" to yourself and the world and the man you wish to be/become and you find somewhere else to live, you sell all your assets and split them, you talk with her about what she would need to leave if she wants to leave rather than get snide about her reasons for not going to live with her mother. You concentrate on the actions, instead of just the swirling feelings and words.

I suppose much of the purpose of writing the letter is to get my own thoughts straight.

Interesting comments here - you've given me a lot to consider. I've read through this a number of times and really need to think about what you've written. Thanks.

[BeachLover]

I agree with Anika. It does seem to me by reading your letter that you are focusing an awful lot are trying to get her to see your side. Yes, your feelings are valid BUT so are hers. Maybe she feels the same way. It seems like you are both frustrated with trying to communicate your "feelings" to each other. I was recetly in a very similar situation. My ex was constatnly telling me "how" I should feel about certain things that happened in our realtionship. People react differently and I was entitled to feel however I felt. He could not understand that because he didn't think I should feel the way I did. He insisted it was MY problem because I couldn't get over/past things.....BUT it wasn't just MY problem. In a relationship it was OUR problem. Things he had done caused me to feel a certain way. The way I reacted caused him to feel a certain way. BOTH entitled to our feelings but a vicious cycle of not being able to agree or see eye to eye eventually ended it. I'm not trying to take sides but sometimes its just not meant to be and two people will never agree and see eye to eye. It can be that simple......and love does not always conquer all.

"I've come to you at least 3-4 times to try to work things out and move on and all that you do is continue to beat me over the head with what you believe I have done."

What exactly does the sentence above mean? What does she believe you have done?