[RichardBrooks]

Yeah,sometime the truth can hurt. But lies destroy. That is all; just had to get it out.

Thanks for saying that!!

I've been destroyed by people lying to me too. You don't like me fine but trying to trick me into believing you like me is just cruel.

[yumi]

Lying, trickery and deception are so destructive. It ruins lives and doesn't solve things in a fair manner. I'm better able to respond with truth than with lies. Lies are a huge part of what contributes to my illness and magnifies the symptoms. Just be truthful to me and give me that fighting chance. I don't understand why people choose to go this route it only makes things worse

[LaborIntensive]

This is something that has bothered me for my whole life. I try each day to be myself and speak from the heart. I have seen at work many who will be whatever they can be to please the other person. Often I hear a guy/girl say "Oh I hate that show or person" then in another person's company they flip their position to appease the person.

It never ceases to amaze me the shallow depths most are living in.

[RichardBrooks]

Originally Posted by LaborIntensive

It never ceases to amaze me the shallow depths most are living in.

Part of this could be my Aspie difficulty with social convention, but I think, just an observation on my pat from my perspective, society is a fabrication, a false construct created to support the grandiose delusions of mediocre people.
It seems I'm always three steps behind liars, cheats, connivers, and manipulators. It's destroyed my family life, social life, and professional life.

Or my psychiatrist was right to ask me all those questions about depression she did the other day.

[Hong Kong Fluey]

The naked truth is always better than the best dressed lie.

[Lorn]

This is an attitude I wish I saw more of. Truth can hurt, but tact helps it to be less personal. Without knowing the truth it's impossible to make meaningful change in the areas that need it, and I'd really rather not have a nasty surprise 15 years down the road due to taking the easier path of not seeking to learn or make changes.

[lifelies]

As you can tell by our username, our life is a lie. And life lies to you to.
Sometimes you're forced to lie because everybody would reject you if they knew the truth about you.

[Numbed]

"The truth hurts... but lies do more damage "

I writ that two years ago. I'm still on that page.
I'm supposed to be an Aspie as well, idk though, i've been trying to accept ASD/Aspie for 2 years. I do know what you mean though about the lies.

Why are you always 3 steps behind?
I find having a small social circle, and limiting valuable/important things or tasks to the outer circle, only when necessary, minimizes it a bit.

I actually react pretty bad if I see any form of manipulation or trying to cheat me going on.
Last time, my so called "friend" was trying to tell me what to do, trying to control what I do, next thing I know, he comes storming out the building towards me, unfortunately for him, he just triggered my anger from childhood. Lucky for him, that i've developed better control over it, and didn't slam him so hard into the wall behind, the 2nd and 3rd time. Still dragged him like a rag doll though, round 180 and into car, and then pushed back into wall releasing shirt. If I hadn't seen him not fighting back after that first unexpected slam, not seen his weakness, probably would of caused seriously injured him.

Add some confrontations into the mix, and see what you come up with.
May or may not get some results, but it'll certainly help get you out of your head for a bit, and make a few people in proximity think twice.

You seem like you might have a Narc trait or two, not necessarily a bad thing, so use it dude.

[marie4u]

i totally agree with you.

[Sofi26]

It is always better to know the truth, even ugly truth, that way you will get stronger!

[eskielover]

I have been doing a lot of research on aspie traits as I am putting together the information for my H's pdoc who was also mine before I left my H 7 years ago.....but I have been trying to figure out what destroyed the marriage & WHY my H's behaviors were as odd as they were.....& looking into the aspie traits is the only thing that has 100% fit......even though he's now 62 years old.......

One thing that aspies can do is to think of opinion as fact.....whether someone elses or their own......& when the opinion (what they think is fact) is WRONG.....then it comes across as a lie......I felt through all the 33 years I lived with him that I was constantly being lied to.....either by telling me things that in FACT were WRONG....or by NOT saying anything at all & not telling me about serious things that I needed to know....something it seems he was unable to distinguish between.

So yes, aspies get caught by lies....but they can do their share of their own unintentionally I'm sure. Unfortunately it doesn't make the lie any less hurtful or harmful.

[soccerdad]

This is a juicy debate waiting to happen but I think I will just leave it at this.

Lies are like swear words. Generally frowned upon and should not be uttered but there are situations where they are a necessary part of life. The trick is knowing when they are necessary and when you are only using them for your own personal gain.

[ididwhat?]

A favorite quote on the subject:
"Hurt me with the truth, but never comfort me with a lie"
by unknown...

[RichardBrooks]

Originally Posted by eskielover

One thing that aspies can do is to think of opinion as fact...

Unlike an opinion, a fact can be verified. The two main types of lie I was referring to in my original post are misrepresentations of fact (a person claimed to have done work that I did, so in addition to not getting paid I was also fired and he now has my old job even after I showed photos of the work and had 5 witnesses corroborate), and misrepresentation of intent (I'll call you, and the call never comes; I'll be there at such-and-such time, and the person never shows).
These kinds of lies completely erode even the most basic trust I have not just in those who tell the lies, but also those who believe the lies and, over time, humanity as a whole. I have gotten to the point I can't believe anything anyone says that cannot be verified; I want to see the evidence. If someone tells me the sky is blue, I look up; if they say the grass is green, I look down.

Originally Posted by Numbed

Add some confrontations into the mix, and see what you come up with.
May or may not get some results, but it'll certainly help get you out of your head for a bit, and make a few people in proximity think twice.

You seem like you might have a Narc trait or two, not necessarily a bad thing, so use it dude.

Not exactly sure what you mean by 'Narc traits', but I have found that liars certainly don't like being confronted with their lies or the damage they cause... There is no guilt, no shame, only deflection and derision.

[jeando]

I just realized that everything I thought was true, was indeed true. I've fooled myself for years that I was making friends and fitting in or that people cared about me when deep down it all felt false and it's taken me a lifetime that my instincts were right all along. So I've spent my entire life trying to fit in and be a good person and friend to others and not one bit of it mattered. People just don't like me, it is what it is. I don't know why but does it really matter? I don't really like much of them either.

[trying2survive]

ah yes..truth v lies..an age old argument is it not??

from a moral standpoint it's easy, black and white..pretty easy for the BPD in me to understand.

lies are bad and the truth is good simple as that, right?????
unfortunately life isn't as black and white or as neat and tidy as i would like to believe.

i have come to understand that "good' and "bad' are subjective terms that describe perceived outcomes.

what is "good" for me..may just happen to be "bad" for you.
i.e if my team wins...i would perceive this as "good", if your team loses "you would perceive it as "bad" and the opposite would apply.

so if we took it to the next level, perhaps someone stole something from a store...morally that would be "bad"..to the person that did it i imagine it would be "good" to the store it would be "bad".

so lets go higher up, suppose a person was on trial for murder..telling the truth would mean certain death, but perhaps a lie..a well placed lie..they go free?? hmm...what would the average person do in that situation. at what point does the "truth' become "bad' and lies suddenly become "good"

a marriage situation with a cheating husband/wife and a suspicious spouse...
could you tell the truth knowing full well the consequences might mean the end?? or would a lie be just a tad more pleasant...hmmm.

a situation with an employer which the truth would mean certain termination from employment..a lie..a reprieve or at least a delay of the inevitable, or perhaps an escape..a mulligan..hmmm.

an interesting paradox indeed, it is quite amazing what we humans are capable of under the most dire of circumstances..is it not?

no obviously the scenarios above could be avoided if the parties involved "did the right thing" in the first place..but let's just say they didn't...what would you do in those shoes...under those circumstances..up against those odds.
just some food for thought

[eskielover]

winning & loosing a game has nothing to do with lying or telling the truth.

As far as good & bad goes....they you are assuming that the person who steals or tells the lie has absolutely NO conscience that will end away at them & hurt them worse in the end than if they hadn't lied or stolen in the first place.

For me.....I would be honest about my situation if I was desperate in need of money, food or whatever......I have always found that when I ask, God provides through wonderful caring people (who sometimes I haven't even known before then).

Unlike an opinion, a fact can be verified.

This is definitely true.....but the experience I had was that I didn't have time to verify the information & many times I had no idea where the paperwork had even been filed which held the verifiable truth.....one example had to do with back when cell phones were just starting to have free minutes after 9pm at night. My H & I got our phones at some point when I was dealing with some really stressful things....& he was basically the one that listened & did all the agreement to the contract......then a few years later (after the contract was actually up but we were still under that payment plan......my mother was dying of cancer & I was continually on the phone with her every day......I asked him if that 9pm applied to our phone agreement....& he assured me that YES it did.......that was his opinion because when I got the $600 phone bill, facts definitely told me that his opinion had nothing to do with the fact or the truth......there were many other situations just like this & I needed to be able to trust my H to provide me ths truthful information so that I could act accordingly.

I finally left him because it was becoming a continuous situation that had existed throughout the 33 years.......& I knew that the only way that I would STOP feeling the need to trust him was to leave & have everything under my own control & not depend on him for anything because at that point I never knew what I could believe or not.....so it was best to just NOT & get out of there & take care of myself so I knew what the REAL truth was or at least I would know where I filed the paperwork to go look if I wasn't sure.

[trying2survive]

Originally Posted by eskielover

winning & loosing a game has nothing to do with lying or telling the truth.

As far as good & bad goes....they you are assuming that the person who steals or tells the lie has absolutely NO conscience that will end away at them & hurt them worse in the end than if they hadn't lied or stolen in the first place.

For me.....I would be honest about my situation if I was desperate in need of money, food or whatever......I have always found that when I ask, God provides through wonderful caring people (who sometimes I haven't even known before then).

This is definitely true.....but the experience I had was that I didn't have time to verify the information & many times I had no idea where the paperwork had even been filed which held the verifiable truth.....one example had to do with back when cell phones were just starting to have free minutes after 9pm at night. My H & I got our phones at some point when I was dealing with some really stressful things....& he was basically the one that listened & did all the agreement to the contract......then a few years later (after the contract was actually up but we were still under that payment plan......my mother was dying of cancer & I was continually on the phone with her every day......I asked him if that 9pm applied to our phone agreement....& he assured me that YES it did.......that was his opinion because when I got the $600 phone bill, facts definitely told me that his opinion had nothing to do with the fact or the truth......there were many other situations just like this & I needed to be able to trust my H to provide me ths truthful information so that I could act accordingly.

I finally left him because it was becoming a continuous situation that had existed throughout the 33 years.......& I knew that the only way that I would STOP feeling the need to trust him was to leave & have everything under my own control & not depend on him for anything because at that point I never knew what I could believe or not.....so it was best to just NOT & get out of there & take care of myself so I knew what the REAL truth was or at least I would know where I filed the paperwork to go look if I wasn't sure.

to that i will respond with this...to some people it is indeed quite similar, take someone with ASPD or NPD it is indeed a game..if you have never run across this i assure you your opinion will be quickly modified after your experience.

i offer merely food for thought, i can also assure you there are many that walk the earth that absolutely have little or no conscience whatsoever.
murderers,rapist,child molesters and the like...everyone's moral compass is different..some people have remorse..other do not.

some people steal and are perfectly ok with it..i only offer a view of both sides of the coin..perhaps an attempt to look at all points of view..a devil's advocate if you will.

i use the sport analogy as an example for the process of simplification.
i still maintain that "good' and "evil" are subjective terms determined by the perception of the person involved and their individual take on the situation.

if a con artist were to con me out of some money..i assure you he would not consider this to be a "bad" thing..now of course i would not be happy..do you honestly think the con artist would care about my happiness? now of course i would very much consider this to be "bad" but for him..it is "good" do you see my point?

i will use you cell phone situation as an example, all the while while you were being deceived about the minutes..according to your h's point of view the "lie" was "good" it suited his purpose...now i'm not speaking from a moral stand point i'm speaking from an individual perspective. now of course for you it was "bad" and ultimately ended your relationship..but he was able to keep this going for 33 yrs am i correct? the deception, i mean.

so again i go to the beginning of my post..in a perfect world everyone would tell the truth, all jobs would be wonderful, nothing would ever go bad, relationships would last forever & no one would lie,steal,cheat or kill.
unfortunately that utopia does not exist and never will, so we are left with the reality of this thing we call life.

so i simply mean to spark the imagination, to look at both sides of the coin, to examine why us humans do some of the things we do, conscience? lack there of? empathy? lack there of? why do some people kill and steal and others would not dream of such behavior? why do some people beat their wives and children? why do some men/women cheat on their spouse? why are others completely faithful yet become victims. how is it that one persons' "good" is another person "bad"..for one person what is a lie which is good for them is bad for someone else.. just food for thought that's all

Thank you very much for that post Trying2survive. It helped me see something in myself. I think I believed everyone had a conscience, it was just buried and you had to dig deep to find it. Now I can see that a conscience does not exist for some. The concept of this is very unsettling to me.

[trying2survive]

Originally Posted by Cingmore

Thank you very much for that post Trying2survive. It helped me see something in myself. I think I believed everyone had a conscience, it was just buried and you had to dig deep to find it. Now I can see that a conscience does not exist for some. The concept of this is very unsettling to me.

yes indeed & i think it should be, most of us give people the benefit of the doubt.the sad reality is not everyone is going to "do the right thing"

this is one of the harder lessons i have learned in life and through several of my relationships, i inherently believed everyone was a "good" person until proven otherwise.

i too used to believe everyone had a conscience and if you are good to people naturally they would be good to you..unfortunately i found out the hard way, it just doesn't work like that all the time...i'm not bitter..just more educated ..i consider myself "warned" i learned a tough lesson last summer a young lady completely lied to me about her feelings for me and our "future" together..it was a ruse. to manipulate me and take advantage of me for financial gain. she ruined a decent relationship i had at the time because i believed her words and thought the "grass was greener" on the other side so to speak.

to her her "lies" were "good" they worked for her, she got money out of me, a place to live, etc. my feelings and "the truth' didn't matter.."the truth' would have been bad for her...had i realized her true intentions i would have ran for the hills. so though "the truth" would have been so much better for me...it would not have been better at all for her.

so we have to be careful..a naive view of the world (like i had) will get us burnt..not everyone sees eye to eye & not everyone plays by the same rules.
we may not like it..but we need to understand it for our own protection. just because we see things one way doesn't mean there is someone else out there with a different agenda, a different way of seeing things...playing with a different deck of cards..they are out there..i have run into them, i can't get mad at them or expect them to change..only try to understand so i can see the warning signs and avoid further trouble!

on some level most people are looking out for their best interest...and sometimes that doesn't coincide with ours...this is what we need to beware of!

hope this helps all who have read my input.

[IchbinkeinTeufel]

Damn straight.