[Albatross2008]

Please be warned. Some of this can be upsetting.

My husband's job involves dealing with the public, often people who are homeless, addicted, and/or dealing with mental illness. He often comes home and tells me about something silly or stupid that a co-worker or a customer did that day. That's fine. Telling your wife about your day at work is normal. However, it also reveals some very disturbing things about his way of thinking. While some of his attitudes have improved in the time I've been married to him, some problems remain. I would like to know how to deal with it, or else I'd like it confirmed that it can't be dealt with.

Ordinarily he's a good person. But he has blind spots, as we all do, and he can't see where these things are problematic.

1.) Greatly improved: His attitude toward homelessness and mental illness. It helps that I also deal with mental illness, and that I've been homeless myself. I sometimes have to remind him that the labels he throws on those people might just as easily apply to his wife. He shouldn't say about them what he wouldn't want said about me.

2.) Still a big problem: When he tells me his work stories, I don't need to know what color or what sexual orientation the person involved is. Only sometimes is it relevant to the situation. Can't he just describe the behavior, without mentioning those things? He doesn't tell me about something "a straight man" or "a white woman" did. He'll merely say "a man" or "a woman." When he doesn't specify race or orientation, it's a pretty safe bet that the person involved is white and straight. But if one or both of those doesn't apply, you can be sure he will mention it. And he doesn't see the problem with that, because he's not actually using derogatory terms. If I speak up, he will insist he's only describing, not judging. Then he'll accuse ME of "bringing race into it."

Is there a way to explain what's wrong with this? Or is he never going to get it? He's in his mid-50's, by the way.

Are you able to sit him down and let him know you are uncomfortable with this? I agree with you that it is unsettling. I'd be pretty upset if a family member has this sort of attitude. I have a son in law who does and I loathe to spend time with him as a result. My boyfriend has friends with a similar attitude which makes me cringe too.

My mother was this way during her whole life. I could not mention a person without her commenting on what ethnicity and religion they must be based on the last name which she always demanded to know. I ignored this. She was my mother after all. Now that she is gone I have a lot of regrets about not speaking up about things that bothered me that I never got closure on. This is one of them.

Okay as for your question on how to talk about it. I think that diving right in to discuss it as soon as he does it would be a good call. Ask him if, in this day and age, he thinks it is appropriate. And ask him too if his description of the person(s) matters to the story. Tell him you only want to hear about the story and that the side descriptions have nothing to do with it and you need not hear.

It is not always a mental disorder or brain malfunction, sometimes, but I think it's just his personality trait
I doubt there is something seriously wrong with him.

[Albatross2008]

I don't think it's a disorder either. I think he just doesn't understand the issue. We have discussed it before, and his attitude is, "What's wrong with saying they're black, if they're black?" Does the person's skin color or sexual orientation have any bearing on the story? If not, then why bring it up? That's my question.

Oh, and the old cliche about "I'm not racist. Some of my best friends are black." Yes, that applies here too. My husband has several black friends, including the guy who I would say is probably his best friend. He isn't *meaning* to be racist. He just doesn't get it.

My mother once told me that when I was a very small child, we were out in public, and apparently I said something about "See that black girl over there? I like her dress." The girl's mother was angry because I had identified her daughter by race, and she confronted my mother. "You're teaching her prejudice." Mom couldn't see the problem. "Well, by golly, she is black."

Nowadays, I do get what the other mother was saying. If they had been a white family, I would have simply said, "that girl over there." Why was I specifying her color? But if there were several girls over there, and I wanted to identify which one of them was wearing the dress I liked, then I don't see where what I said was offensive. Anyone who does see a problem in it is welcome to educate me. That's why I started this thread. I'm looking for dialogue, not a fight.

[healingme4me]

Maybe the conversation need not be an actual conversation with your husband? Because in pointing out a behavior of his when he deep down believes himself to be tolerant, it could come accross as confrontational and shaming?

For me, modeling behavior is the more peaceful approach. Maybe quietly correct as he speaks? I think making a war of it could defeat the point you are trying to make with him?

[Albatross2008]

Thanks for that reminder. That is how I've been trying to approach it when he talks about someone with a mental illness, or someone who is homeless. In this case, he thinks he's merely using shorter, simpler words. If we're talking about our cat, for example, we would say "cat" rather than "feline household companion," because there is nothing wrong with being a cat. Likewise, "homeless person" is four syllables, while "bum" is only one. As he sees it, those are just different ways to say the same thing, so what does it matter?

One thing he says often is, "I won't bow to being politically correct." And that's frustrating to me because what he calls "being politically correct" I see as being polite and respectful. I do sympathize with him on how it seems the rules keep changing, though. He has trouble keeping up with what is still considered polite, and what has become a slur. The connotations of language is a complicated matter.

So if he comes home and tells me about something this "crazy drunk" did today, I'll rephrase it and repeat it back to him. "So the guy was yelling and cussing at people that weren't actually there, and then he passed out and peed on the seat." Here I'm describing behavior but not putting any labels on the man himself, and I'm hoping it serves as an example.

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by Arbie

.

So if he comes home and tells me about something this "crazy drunk" did today, I'll rephrase it and repeat it back to him. "So the guy was yelling and cussing at people that weren't actually there, and then he passed out and peed on the seat." Here I'm describing behavior but not putting any labels on the man himself, and I'm hoping it serves as an example.

Pretty much...yes. In this example, absolutely.

I cannot form long sentences without rambling, but in short, dear lady, I salute people like you. From what I gather, your husband isn't as nice as you and this is why you get hurt when your husband comments.


As a person with severe mental illness, people call me "Weirdo", "Retard", "Freak" all the time. Behind and front of me, all the time. I don't like that, of course. But most of the people are like that and simply there's nothing can be done about it.

Again, I wish people like you were more common.

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by Arbie

Thanks for that reminder. That is how I've been trying to approach it when he talks about someone with a mental illness, or someone who is homeless. In this case, he thinks he's merely using shorter, simpler words. If we're talking about our cat, for example, we would say "cat" rather than "feline household companion," because there is nothing wrong with being a cat. Likewise, "homeless person" is four syllables, while "bum" is only one. As he sees it, those are just different ways to say the same thing, so what does it matter?

One thing he says often is, "I won't bow to being politically correct." And that's frustrating to me because what he calls "being politically correct" I see as being polite and respectful. I do sympathize with him on how it seems the rules keep changing, though. He has trouble keeping up with what is still considered polite, and what has become a slur. The connotations of language is a complicated matter.

So if he comes home and tells me about something this "crazy drunk" did today, I'll rephrase it and repeat it back to him. "So the guy was yelling and cussing at people that weren't actually there, and then he passed out and peed on the seat." Here I'm describing behavior but not putting any labels on the man himself, and I'm hoping it serves as an example.

I think this is a good plan. I imagine it must be doubly difficult because he's your husband. But I would just continue to ask questions like, can you tell me why being black or gay or whatever was relevant? I wouldn't talk to him about his racism, I would just phrase the question in terms of, why is that what you are seeing?

Mentioning skin color or hair color or eye color (notice I say color versus race) when you are describing someone to provide a description is relevant. So if I'm describing someone that you need to look for in a crowd because we are meeting them, then it is relevant to know what they look like. When it is not relevant, it's being used in a latent racist way to portray the person in a negative light. Because YES even in today's society being black or gay or "other" is still viewed, in large part, negatively. I know people will disagree with that, just as they disagree white privilege, but the studies exist and, also, I live in the South, and I can tell you I see it ALL the time. (And I observe from a place of being white, so if I notice it and it's not even happening to me...)

So if your husband says "this black person came in today..." Why did you need to know they were black? Because in his mind he prescribes them as "other" at the very least. You know, it's just like when people mention the age of a person when it has no relevance. "This old man came in today..." Okay, is his age relevant to the story? Why is it relevant?

I'm with you, I see the prejudice in his words. The best you can do is continue to question it. Try not to be confrontational about it. As a writer, people often tell me stories IRL and some information is superfluous. To me it's confusing because I'm used to writing a story or a proposal and each bit of information is integral to understanding the situation. So I often ask what a detail or component of the story has to do with the whole thing, and I do it in a polite way so as to show that I'm trying to understand. I have found this often alerts the person to a process in their own thinking.

Seesaw

[TishaBuv]

A saw a pick up truck driving around town yesterday that had a bumper sticker, “I don’t care if you are offended”.

If your husband told you the story of some man who came in and peed on the floor, but omitted that he was drunk, you’d ask why he peed on the floor. Being “a drunk” was pertinent to the story.

I was appalled the other day when my husband made an awful crack about the poor volcano victims in Guatemala jokingly in front of a group of strangers. I get what you are saying. When your SO goes around making bad cracks about others, not only to you, but to strangers and friends...what can you do? There’s just no controlling them if they insist. I’m sorry for all who have to cope with that.

[Albatross2008]

^^I understand what you're saying. In my mind, "this man came in, and he was drunk," is different from "this drunk came in." The first way focuses on the behavior, and the second puts a label on the man. But saying it the first way is using more words to describe the same event. My husband thinks he's ONLY saying it in a shorter and more efficient way. He likes to cut to the chase and conserve words.

By the way, there are some times when the person's skin color or sexual orientation is part of the story. My husband is a bus driver. If a passenger tries to ride the bus with an expired pass, starts cussing when my husband tells them the pass is outdated, and then says, "You're only giving me a hard time because I'm XYZ," then the fact that the passenger is XYZ matters. Because the *passenger* brought it up.

[healingme4me]

Has he been like this throughout knowing him?

[divine1966]

Is he just venting in privacy of his home to his wife or he blurts stuff like that everywhere? Does he wish harm on these people?

Both I and my husband have very stressful jobs in somewhat similar fields. It’s a different career path but dealing with the same population.

Neither I nor he would ever harm a fly and we would go to great length including endangering ourselves in order to save and protect those who put their trust in us.

But when we vent to each other in privacy of our home after particularly hard days we sometimes have to let the steam out and might not always use the most refined language. I’ll give you an example. If someone we take care of (patient or child etc) is being mistreated by drunk relatives I surely would refer to them as “crazy freaking drunks” and likely worse than that rather than calling them “these people addicted to alcohol are not being nice”.

People who don’t hold dangerous or high pressure jobs sometimes don’t understand that we have to let steam out if we want to make it. I am not saying it’s all right to use bad language or put others down, but I am offering a new perspective/a different look at this.

[Albatross2008]

Originally Posted by healingme4me

Has he been like this throughout knowing him?

No. He used to be worse.

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by divine1966

Is he just venting in privacy of his home to his wife or he blurts stuff like that everywhere? Does he wish harm on these people?

Both I and my husband have very stressful jobs in somewhat similar fields. It’s a different career path but dealing with the same population.

Neither I nor he would ever harm a fly and we would go to great length including endangering ourselves in order to save and protect those who put their trust in us.

But when we vent to each other in privacy of our home after particularly hard days we sometimes have to let the steam out and might not always use the most refined language. I’ll give you an example. If someone we take care of (patient or child etc) is being mistreated by drunk relatives I surely would refer to them as “crazy freaking drunks” and likely worse than that rather than calling them “these people addicted to alcohol are not being nice”.

People who don’t hold dangerous or high pressure jobs sometimes don’t understand that we have to let steam out if we want to make it. I am not saying it’s all right to use bad language or put others down, but I am offering a new perspective/a different look at this.

I get you, Divine. When I'm venting I often refer to my clients as crazy. They are not crazy. They are just stressed and trying to accomplish a lot. And a lot of them are working in fast-paced fields so things change quite frequently. Usually when I say they are crazy, I mean that the project is crazy with lots of things moving and people all working on different aspects and just lots going on. It is no negative reflection. I actually love most of the craziness. So crazy for me isn't really an insult. But if a client heard it, it might offend them. A bigger insult they should look out for from me is if I said they are disorganized...that's code from me for LOTS of internal issues. And usually it means I won't work with them very long.

I digress; we all vent occasionally. But it sounds like what's coming from OP's husband is beyond just calling someone a drunk or a head case, but expressing latent prejudices. My dad used to do this all the time.

Seesaw

[Erebos]

Subconscious bias is what your describing. Often dismissed because it isn't intentionally derogatory or intended, but it's incredibly common. Most people have it in one way or another.

I am occasionally biased against other women in certain situations, it's a difficult habit to break that requires acknowledgement first.

Since the Starbucks thing I suspect alot more companies will be requiring their staff complete some kind of course to raise awareness in their staff.

How to address it with your husband I am not entirely sure.
Hopefully as general awareness is raised, so will his own.

[TishaBuv]

Keep in mind, our *****ing about our jobs to our SO’s have anger at our jobs behind it. His insults about the people stem from his doing that as a job day in/day out. In the medical profession too, they insult everybody behind their backs. Loads of animosity all over.

So, a man who would not make those cracks in public, will with his SO to vent about his job, in general, IMHO.

BTW— they KNOW they’re being...

[Albatross2008]

Maybe I should just let him vent it out on me, so he doesn't bottle it up and then go off on his passengers?

[s4ndm4n2006]

Originally Posted by Arbie

Please be warned. Some of this can be upsetting.

My husband's job involves dealing with the public, often people who are homeless, addicted, and/or dealing with mental illness. He often comes home and tells me about something silly or stupid that a co-worker or a customer did that day. That's fine. Telling your wife about your day at work is normal. However, it also reveals some very disturbing things about his way of thinking. While some of his attitudes have improved in the time I've been married to him, some problems remain. I would like to know how to deal with it, or else I'd like it confirmed that it can't be dealt with.

Ordinarily he's a good person. But he has blind spots, as we all do, and he can't see where these things are problematic.

1.) Greatly improved: His attitude toward homelessness and mental illness. It helps that I also deal with mental illness, and that I've been homeless myself. I sometimes have to remind him that the labels he throws on those people might just as easily apply to his wife. He shouldn't say about them what he wouldn't want said about me.

2.) Still a big problem: When he tells me his work stories, I don't need to know what color or what sexual orientation the person involved is. Only sometimes is it relevant to the situation. Can't he just describe the behavior, without mentioning those things? He doesn't tell me about something "a straight man" or "a white woman" did. He'll merely say "a man" or "a woman." When he doesn't specify race or orientation, it's a pretty safe bet that the person involved is white and straight. But if one or both of those doesn't apply, you can be sure he will mention it. And he doesn't see the problem with that, because he's not actually using derogatory terms. If I speak up, he will insist he's only describing, not judging. Then he'll accuse ME of "bringing race into it."

Is there a way to explain what's wrong with this? Or is he never going to get it? He's in his mid-50's, by the way.

I'll be completely honest here, I think there is a balance here to take into account. As a man who's wife (ex, really but we can't get divorced yet) blatantly makes comments related to race and gender, creed, lifestyles all the time, I have to say merely mentioning the color of someone's skin or other descriptor isn't necessarily being racist or wrong.

On the one hand I agree that there are times when it's appropriate and helpful but many people do this without really being racist in their comments or intending to be.

I don't know the context for his comments so I cant' discern whether or not they seem to be derogatory or not but if I described you to a friend and said this "red haired girl" (or insert your hair color here) while in the midst of conversation about you, would you be offended? Would you be offended if I described you by any other terms? Most times in conversation we do use things like descriptors to paint a picture and it's not really wrong to mention the color of someone's skin if it's pertinent to painting a picture of someone. I think perhaps like many you are over vigilant about reading into things related to things such as this.

As I said it's a balance. Sure there may be times that he doesn't "need" to mention such things but I think there may be times when you're being overly critical of his descriptions of people too at times.

Let him know how you feel about these things and have a conversation. Not about how he's wrong for doing so, but how you feel about it, and be open to his input about this also.

The part that made me think you might be over vigilant about this at times was the line you mentioned about the drunk. if you call someone a drunk and they are behaving as such, and they smell of alcohol it's not derogatory, even if calling someone a drunk isn't putting them in a positive light. It's a descriptor that serves to explain some things that left out would be kind of leaving out important information.

Be discerning and not overly critical picking apart every sentence that happens to include a skin color descriptor. I'm sure sometimes it comes out sounding derogatory but I say be discerning because that's not always the case.

[Shazerac]

It’s hard to deal with this kind of bigotry especially in a close relationship. My husband tends to do this but over 15 years of calling him out on it he has mellowed a bit.

My mother in law, however, is totally draconian. She doesn’t even think that women should be doctors or lawyers. I call her out occasionally if she is trying to get me to agree with her, but usually I just ignore her because she’s 85 years old and I doubt I can change her.

[Albatross2008]

Originally Posted by Shazerac

It’s hard to deal with this kind of bigotry especially in a close relationship. My husband tends to do this but over 15 years of calling him out on it he has mellowed a bit.

My mother in law, however, is totally draconian. She doesn’t even think that women should be doctors or lawyers. I call her out occasionally if she is trying to get me to agree with her, but usually I just ignore her because she’s 85 years old and I doubt I can change her.

Both my husband and I grew up being taught racism, me more so. I think everybody of our generation has a racist grandparent. My family is more open about it. That's one reason I moved so far away. I just don't approve of those values.

I suppose I'm a little more sensitive to subtle wording and tone of voice than hubby is. And that's OK. It's just the way we're made.

Many of my birth family are still openly racist. They're the kind who wouldn't even want to live next door to a minority family, and they'll freely use actual racist slurs. If I don't like it, I get "Oh, it's just a word." In their minds, I'm an ultra-leftist, bleeding heart SJW. If they only knew how many interracial couples there are at the church I go to, including the pastor and his wife, I'm sure they'd disapprove.

Again, which is why I live 3,000 miles away now.