Stuck in a Loop with my wife

You're not wrong.

Getting validation through therapy is kind of like paid emotional prostitution. You get, from therapy, what you aren't getting in your marriage. "My therapist says I'm a good person. My therapist helps me feel good about myself" Similarly, getting validation from friends co-workers, etc. is problematic, because people see how much I do, and say things like "she's lucky she has you". It tends to drive the point home that things are one-sided. This is what I was referring to when I said therapy can reinforce the negative, and even external validation on this topic can reinforce the negative. Even having the kids see this stuff is hard to manage. It reinforces, to me, how one-sided things are. It's nice to be validated by my kids. BUT, them actually seeing and validating, creates a "dad vs mom" situation. Them feeling negatively towards their mom is not what a chronically ill depressed person needs. It hinders forward movement.

This is really hard, and has been for a long time, and when I say I feel stuck, I really feel stuck.

What gets me with all this too, is that my wife has told me for years now, that I am emotionally unintelligent (exact words). That is such a punch in the gut. I try really, really hard to be emotionally aware for me, for her, and for the kids.

If you haven't lived with someone who is at their emotional bottom, it's hard to explain. I have said self affirming things during times she was angry at me, things like, "I'm a hard worker, and a good and committed father. I'm a good person." That becomes a fight topic, because me saying that implies that I think she isn't those things. Even self affirming comments become an issue, and are regarded as either excessive defensiveness or a personal attack.

One thing I will say for myself, I'm not emotionally unintelligent. I'm not emotionally unaware. I'm human, and the times I got things wrong it was never intentional. I have never played emotional games. I have never tried to injure anyone, ever.

Last I'm posting on this one for a while.

Thanks everyone for the support. Thank you for the insight. Thank you for letting me talk and vent and rationalize. If you were here I'd hug all of you.


RDM

I know you're not going to post anymore, but if you're still reading the thread and return to it, I must say, you're a total saint. I would not put up with the ******** you're putting up with. Your pure devotion is evident, even through the insults, the neglect, the repetitive breaking up, the selfishness and her mental illness. I personally could not do it, and I would have walked away. Maybe I'm selfish myself, but I tend to think of it more as self preservation. You have not really been happy in this marriage for a long time. Or, things improve, then they go back downhill again. Such a roller coaster.

We didn’t say what you wanted to hear.

Seeing a therapist is not seeing an emotional prostitute.

You’re in an abusive marriage, I know you don’t want to hear that.

I hope you’re able to at least change your view on therapy.

@leomama, I cannot resist. What makes you think it's an abusive relationship?

This comment sort of epitomizes you, looking at each situation from the perspective of your beloved one.

You could remind the kids that mom is ill. Not that they don't know this. But when they say that you are better than mom, you can remind them that mom is ill atm and this is why she can get difficult. Of course your answers would be different, age-appropriate, for each child.

A good therapist won't say just anything, but rather will help you see good things about you that you might be missing or underestimating.

I have actually lived with someone who was exceedingly difficult. I'm very familiar with someone seizing on what one says and making it the basis for a further enraged attack. When you say that you are a good person, for example, it contradicts the raging, irrational thoughts that are overwhelming her in that moment. Being contradicted fuels her rage.

It's hard to know what to do with her rage. I wonder if you know of the "grey rock" tactic. You could Google it, it means being unresponsive so as to give little for her to attack in her rage and also, importantly, to help minimize instances of rage.

If helpful, be sure to reflect daily for a minute or two on what you have actually done and are still doing in your family.

I think of you with the utmost respect and admiration.

Do you really think that people see a therapist because they aren’t getting something in their marriage? This is a very unusual and somewhat troublesome notion of therapy.

I also wonder what kind of severe mental illness does she have that enables her to do nothing for the family and allows her to act in anger and rage and people should put up with it. What does she have that she can’t control her words and behaviors? If her illness is so severe that she is unable to properly function (psychosis?) it could be at least somewhat and often fully controlled by proper combination of medications. Is she not on meds?

So I’m going to try to not break the rules here.

I don’t think the op wants to hear what I have to say so I’m not going to discuss his story.

I can speak from my own experience , when I was arguing with my ex husband , I had one person supporting my decision to divorce: my father . Most people will say it’s bad to “break up a family” but I disagree. Sometimes it’s better not to argue in front of a child.

In terms of the grey rock thing, my last relationship was with someone who showed signs of borderline personality disorder. Turns out they had aspergers instead. At any rate I could not engage in the grey rock technique.

Hi,

OP here!

OP doesn't mind if you discuss him, his story, or your own!

OP is pretty open.

Also, she lost everything. If you haven't been there, or seen it, it's devastating. How many of our friends would stay around if we were chronically ill, and in desperate nerve pain all the time? Hers didn't stay around. Those that did reached their limit of asking "how are you" and reach their limit of being supportive after a year or two.

Work and former colleagues disappear. Because so much of your pain and illness are invisible, they may or may not treat you like you were some kind of weirdo who just quit coming into work. Once short term medical benefits dry up, long term is a real fight, and one that can be hard to win. Especially when a discrete diagnosis is no where to be found.

Her family were never that good to her. She honestly grew up in a dysfunctional home, one where she was NOT the favorite. Once the additional challenge of her health emerged, her side of the family bailed on us, fully.... Including on the kids/grandkids.

My side stayed involved, sort of. They were good about some things, not good about some things. But my dad became hyper religious and righteous, and insistent with my wife. She was dealing with enough, and he wouldn't back off. I mean.... He pushed for about 3 years with her being respectful and asking him to ease up before she finally said "enough". I told him repeatedly prior to that, very clearly, but he didn't respect it. It was his calling to do this, you see.. So, we are over a year now with limited contact on my side.

Pain and isolation can produce some pretty damn bad depression. She has verbally torn me apart, and later when I've confronted her, she has said she didn't remember any of it. I've seen that before, someone with depressions with no memory of outbursts. She doesn't recognize the degree, duration, or severity of things she has said.

Psychosis... No. Severe sleep deprivation, yes. I've seen her writhe in pain for up to 5 days and not sleep. If you have ever witnessed sleep deprivation, it will drive you close to madness.

This is one of the two possibilities we are looking at now. Read the case presentation. Picture this for almost 10 years of your life.
Celiac Artery Compression Syndrome in a Middle-age Woman Treated Laparoscopically

Therapist as emotional prostitute.... Said for some shock and humor effects. But, isn't it nice to hear someone say the things you don't get to hear anywhere else? Like, you're a good person, who is trying hard. Again, going there because my wife was verbally shredding me, after a year, the therapist said, "You know this is abuse. You've just accepted it because of her illness." Yes.

The thing is, I am kind of her safe place to vent and unleash, I think. She hates herself, and her life, and any push back from me creates the fight or flight response in her... Mostly flight (divorce).

There's been a lot of emasculating comments, and a lot of comments that cut down my personal strength and my intelligence. Those hurt.

Hi rd, just trying to follow the rules here, which state we can’t discuss someone in third person.

I don’t believe it’s my place to tell you to divorce or not, and you don’t seem interested in that.

I’m not really sure what you came here to hear. Yours is a difficult marriage, for sure. It looks like you are looking for ways to stay in it in which case I would second the grey rock technique. I learned a lot from the bpd family site. You may find that useful too. I know your wife does not have bpd.

As an anecdote, I often wish I had been able to stay in my alcoholic marriage, then I ended up meeting someone who was even more of an alcoholic then my ex husband. He actually got me to start drinking again. I’ve since stopped.

I would say at the end of the day can you live with yourself. If the answer is yes, then you are safe. If the answer is no, then I would say that’s what needs to be looked at.

Yes, I can live with myself. Even if this all falls apart, I can live with myself.

If we stay together, that may be harder. I'm struggling to accept a LOT of things. I feel I've been pushed to my limits. I'm finding it very hard to look past stuff.

What am I looking for? A chance to talk openly with mature people about something that really sucks. People where anything I say it doesn't come back on her personally, like if I talked in person to someone we know.

I also don't want to look like the self professed hero to any friends or family.

Sometimes you need a bit of assurance, you know?

Just trying to be real, and be solid.

RDM

I meant can you live with yourself in terms of how she is treating you, not so much if things fell apart. Incidentally that is a book that was recommended to me when I was going through a divorce, when things fall apart, by pema chodron.

I understand the need for anonymity. In a 12 step program for family and friends of alcoholics it is said we do not discuss the alcoholic.

I will also tell you as a sponsor told me, I’m interested in hearing about you , not about the other person. That is something I struggle with.

I gave up the hero role, and in my case, my mom actually blamed me for my ex husbands relapse .

You sound solid to me.

Thanks leomama.

No, you didn't make someone else drink or consume.

Thanks everyone.

OP, it sounds to me like you pity and feel sorry for your wife's condition, yet accept less than what you deserve in a marriage and a relationship because you feel so obligated to her due to a vow that states "in sickness and in health". Does that vow also mean enduring longstanding emotional and verbal abuse? Your therapist has said it's abuse. I said earlier that you're a saint for putting up with this kind of treatment. At the same time, I think you make excuses for her because of her illness. Not to be harsh, I'm just being honest in order to help you. The constant threat of a breakup is also a part of emotional abuse. Perhaps it would help you to read up on emotional abuse tactics and signs of abuse. Perhaps you will recognize many of your wife's behaviors as being exactly that.

Thanks Hope.

I also feel guilt for things I got wrong at different times. It is only recently, through therapy, that I realized I'm human.... Just human when it comes to mistakes, and human enough to have human needs, and I'm not evil or a bad person for saying I need sex and attention and positivity, and maybe I even deserve it.

Insisting on change becomes a game of chicken... If I insist too much, she's out. She's told me she is aware of all her failings and the burden she is and has been to all of us for years. To be reminded of more she isn't doing, and she wants out. The constant threat of divorce has made me keep my mouth shut about a lot of stuff for a long time.

There are many people who suffer from every illness imaginable yet they don’t treat their family poorly. It’s not a rule that sick people should be allowed to mistreat others. Of course if you are ok with mistreatment, it’s fine but it’s not something you simply must endure because she is sick. She isn’t the only sick person on the planet. And if her illness isn’t the kind that she is unable to control what comes out of her mouth, then she surely is able to control what she says and what she does. Having said that of course if you want to endure all that abuse, then who are we to say otherwise.

She keeps speaking about divorce.

What do you see as the pros and cons of divorce from the perspective of each member of the family?

Or is divorce not something that might be at all worth considering?

Just trying to stay hopeful for things to change.

Pros and cons....

Cons... Location will change. We live in a residential area outside of the city. Loss of income/splitting income will most likely mean she and I renting apartments.

I see that as being really stress inducing for the kids, including changing schools.

I have definitely reached points where all I could come up with was financial. I have definitely reached points when the relationship wasn't providing me with much, and if I could magically maintain my income, I wouldn't have been missing much. That really hurts to say or admit to anyone. I haven't revealed that before. Voicing it reduces my hope.

I'm hoping to regain or create an emotional connection, but my hope for that keeps slipping away.

A person can mistake a feeling of constant longing for love.

Pros..... I'd be forced to get to know myself. Overall, I think I'd have more time. The arguments and demands are time consuming each week. For the kids it would be like finally ripping the band aid off; just get it over with. They fear mom and me splitting. There is constant anxiety about that since years for them, I know. For my wife, I think she may flourish. I think she feels I've held her back. In the absence of having me to blame, she would be more forced to move forward, and I think she could.

Tough question Bill.

UPDATE - she agreed to pursue counselling with me. We actually got in tomorrow due to a cancellation, a Gottman CBT coach.

RDMercer

Firstly, can I say that I'm single and never experienced a situation like yours first hand. It's difficult to make any meaningful comments.

It may seem cruel to suggest that your wife actually wants a divorce and is not just saying it to upset you. Many years ago, I met a business associate whose wife had severe mental issues. He was lucky to have great professional support, where it was suggested that he file for divorce. He admitted it had been a very painful decision but ultimately the right one for himself and their three children.

Only you can decide, with or without professional help, whether you want to continue in this environment. Or, the frustration is too much to bear and you need to break out, to preserve your sanity. You still have a life to live.

@RDMercer, how long has it been since an actual emotional connection was there? And not just for a fleeting moment or two? I mean, long-lasting? Has it been years?

And yes, I think you're mistaking constant longing for how things COULD be or SHOUlD be for actual feelings of love.

Seems to me it's lost on her side entirely, and for you, you're still holding onto hope.

That's a start. At least you can discover whether this is a marriage worth fighting for. It could go either way, but I suspect you will at least feel like you have done what you can before you make a decision. I wish you the best.

RDMercer,

I didn't read the whole thread yet, but as for your thread OP...

All this frankly sounds to me like you bought her self-absorbed narrative. A narrative, that focuses on her emotions, her feelings and ignores yours. Not good in my book.

Here's an alternative narrative:

She went through periods of depression where she did not seek professional help for it and expected you to play therapist too. She did not give you 110% of the reserves she had, because she was always more focused on her own comfort. Her illness was not comfortable but she could have had it far worse without your long-term and very fundamental support. You did not fail to look after her emotionally, because no one can realistically take care of their spouse if the spouse is depressed, because the person with the depression needs to take responsibility and go get professional help and improve themselves using these professional resources and not expect loved ones to do it all for them instead of they themselves doing the hard work of getting better psychologically and emotionally. You maybe can't imagine the life she had but that's a triviality, because we cannot totally be in the shoes of other people.

My advice. Don't buy into her drama and emotional exaggeration with dressed up adjectives for effect anymore. These words are dramatic, self-absorbed and you should stop buying into it:

- "true" depression
- "she gave me 110% of the reserves she had"
- "she was tapped out for a long time"
- "almost 10 years of crippling illness"
- "I couldn't imagine the life she had"



Again, stop buying into her narrative on this. I highly doubt that you've been emotionally unavailable to her. You seem to have normal empathy skills. Stop letting her guilt trip you on points you seem less sure about. Your kids are giving you much better input than her. Much more reliable, objective, factual input that takes YOUR person into account too.

Instead of her self-absorbed drama, pay attention to actions. Pay attention not to her words but to her actions. Your course of action will be clear then.


No wonder that you can't talk without flooding with everything, reading the whole OP together and the rest of the thread (that I've read so far).

Yup. Selfish. Nothing to do with depression, insecurities, or the like. None of that can be used to excuse her behaviour. It's plain selfish. I like your post on how to the point it is. Validates me too with regard to the very selfish friend too that I had.

Wow....

Glad I checked back here.

Thanks for that insight Alive99.

I actually thought I was going to emotionally break a few years back, because I was actually deeply trying to empathize to a point that I was sinking into a depression. I felt like I was sinking into her depression.

That's when I really put boundaries up.

Last year was when I started making requests and having expectations. That has created a lot of push back.

I'll be in touch

I'm probably projecting here, but if you go back and replace "validation" with "support" does that still resonate?

I'm going to REALLY project here: My wife and I have been coping with depression/anxiety/trauma issues for over a decade, and I'm personally struggling with a lot of things because of it. One part is the ongoing inequality of supporting someone who isn't capable of equally emotionally and mentally supporting you back, while also supporting your family, AND supporting yourself. Its exhausting, you can't ever put that weight down, you hold everything up for everyone and you try to be the best person you can be. Every mistake you make, every time you're not patient or understanding, when you have your own emotions on bad days and say the wrong thing or something the wrong way, or don't say anything when you need to, and things fall apart around you and its so bad you become fearful of ever needing anything from anyone and turn inward. They do what they can, you can't fault them for their situation, its worse than your own and at first its what drives you to shoulder it and carry everything but eventually the resentment and anger builds, and as time goes on what support system you have bleeds away. You feel like you're crumbling, and you want someone you can lean on a bit, someone to say its ok, you've been doing great you can relax and take a breath, i've got you, i can support you, focus on your feelings, your struggles. I can help carry your weight for a little bit you've done it for so long for me.

And after all this time supporting her, she's getting better and you're left in some ways worse off, and to add to the inequality of it she's not offering you the support she's had for years.

I don't have answers but it sounded like you're looking for someone who understands your feelings and frustrations. I don't know if I do, but maybe we understand each other a bit in this.

You deserve an award for the support you’ve provided to your family and your wife. I can’t say I would’ve lasted that long with this level of neglect and narcissistic behavior. I too don’t believe your wife is that type of person in general. From what I’ve read it seems like everyone has hinted at good points and good suggestions. I was going to suggest writing what you want/need from her and have her read it to you. But the other guys writing suggestion seems more impactful for your situation. But here’s something similar to my struggle. The wife has been sick for years and hasn’t been able to leave the house on her own. Yes, codependency is probably really strong in her case, but also some cabin fever. Her comfort zone has shrunk to the perimeter of your house. Suggest her joining a fitness group (if her illness allows it) or some social outdoor group where she can expose herself to others outside the house she lives in.
I live abroad and have for a few years now, and my wife created a business working from home. Which is pretty amazing considering her situation. But is dealing with codependent issues, cabin fever, and this mindset that everything is my problem to solve. The biggest movement I get from her on these issues is: when she meets/hangs out with people with similar issues, and she realizes those issues in those people and asks me if she does those things. Fortunately she recognises them on her own, but that’s also key. Having them realize how bad they’re treating you, and if your wife is as good of a person who you think she is she will change (make an effort to atleast).
Wishing you the best man! Seriously give yourself a pat on the back or an air bro hug from me! I know your not perfect nor handled every situation great But holy cow, look at how far you’ve come as a result and know you didn’t leave her/give up/stop loving her.