Stuck in a Loop with my wife

Well I stopped by to post a short vent. I can't believe this thread is still alive.

Holy..... Nayr88 and witnessorange you guys hit some points that are awfully close to home.

So, what's new around here?

She heard me about my concern about her massive time investments into her new best friends when me and the kids waited our turn for so long. She us feeling better and retured some energy here. She is clearly trying.

She is working PT.

She is still ill so while I'm glad she's working PT it has increased my workload at home. I'm also alone more with the kids in the evenjngs and I kind of like that.

She says I'm not enthusiastic enough about dating but time together is often just one more role to fulfill. I don't get much out of it.

That's pretty bad isn't it.

I'm with my kids a lot. I have a rare job with a lot of autonomy and a lot of responsibility. My kids have been to my office and work sites with me often.

We undertook a home renovation because we had to and because we needed the equity. I did all the work.

Today a female coworker spoke about how awesome her husband is because he fixed the dryer and how lost they'd be without him. Then someone asked about my house. I show pictures of staging set, power tools and cords on the ground and me and my oldest replacing the siding together.

Then I say me and youngest made supper for two nights and are getting ready for Halloween.

The first woman asked Does your wife apreciate this? Because she should. I hope she rewards you for all you do because you deserve it.

Awkward silence.

I actually didn't know some men have that, that clearly.

It left me feeling not very good.

RDM

Welcome back RDM

Whilst it's good to hear some progress has been made, some of your comments concern me. She hears your concerns but then says you're not enthusiastic enough. Is she specific or is this just a criticism to deflect from her? As you say, that is bad. She can't or won't acknowledge how much of your time and energy has been used in helping her.

More time spent with your kids is good as it shows them you are a great person. Getting them involved in projects is also good. Your wife now works PT, so more is loaded onto you. So, her illness has improved if she is now able to do a job. Sorry to sound so cynical!

Although I had to read your co-worker's comment twice, I now understand what she means by rewarding you. Sadly, it seems your wife still cannot openly acknowledge your efforts. I realise you want more than a simple thank you, but that would go some way to making you feel loved and appreciated.

Well, I don't know what to say.

My son and I finished this big project. He's well into his teen years now with a PT job. He told me, You are my favorite person to work with Dad. You show me a lot, and we really work well together. I hope I get to live at home for a while after high school. I like it here.

We finished, and he was so proud of all we did that I had to remind myself to take pictures of him. Honestly, all I was thinking off was:
- We have to get materials picked up.
- I have to arrange for a clean up run to the landfill.
- I have to get inside and get started on supper.
- One of the kids has a test this week, so I need to think about homework.
- Oh my gosh, do they all have clean clothes for tomorrow?
- Both cars need work. I have to free up space in the garage as I'm cleaning up.

This project saved us thousands of dollars and built a ton of equity into our home. It was all done outside of my work responsibilities, using some of my vacation days, and working between 5pm and dark each day.

Yesterday after work it was; take a kid to meet friends at the park, take a kid grocery shopping with me, home to put stuff away, make supper, clean up, and do homework with the youngest until 9:30pm.

I'm just tired.

I've always felt there is no such thing as "men's work" and "women's work", there is only work. It doesn't matter who does it. This week when my coworker talked about what a "good man" her husband is, and the stuff they count on him for to look after in their home, and then she made that comment to me..... Well, it really floored me. I honestly never thought of shouldering responsibility as something that made someone more attractive or desireable to a partner. I just assumed it was what was done.

I see differences in my wife, especially in very recent months. At this point, things are more positive than in the past. I am getting small amounts of recognition I didn't before. In the past she was so deeply depressed that she told me it was difficult to thank me for all I did because it was a reminder to her of how little she was able to contribute.

While I understand that, I don't understand why she concurrently put me down for the things I wasn't able to keep up with at times.

Her PT job is several evenings a week, that is why I am one on one with the kids even more now. I know her health still isn't good. This is real. She doesn't do much around home outside of work at this time.

I'm pretty guarded these days. I'm not trying much when it comes to connection and dating. I really think I've earned it to be pursued a little. Even though things are better, I feel like they need to be better still, and better for quite a while. I was feeling like that before my co workers comment, but she really punctuated it.

ALSO.... My meeting happened over Zoom. I was sharing digital images of my work. This co worker lives in a different city. This was not a flirtatious comment she made.

Thanks,
RDM

A number of you have followed this since a long while so I am posting something that just came to light.

Financially we aren't doing well. What's saved us was our early savings and huge deposit on our house. We've been borrowing money against the house for years now. We have about 4 months to refinance or sell and downgrade.

My wife is working very little. I've viewed her "take" on things as relentless optimism and strength. She IS going to finish her diploma. She IS going to work more for a higher wage. Etc. I've loved her resilience.

But it's reached a point that it is rather removed from reality. She's worked as little as 4 hours a week lately due to illness and isn't progressing in school much.

I haven't spoken to family about her in years because I had overshared too much and violated her trust in the past.

Yesterday I phoned an old friend, a distant cousin, 2000 miles away. I just needed to talk.

She asked:
Is she fatigued? Weight loss? Nausea and diarrhea that doesn't get better? Are her muscles weak? Does she socially distance herself? Is she just socially unaware sometimes? Does she have memory glitches? Are you the bad guy when that happens, like does she need a villain in her thinking? Does she seem to think slowly, like learning is extremely hard? Is she hypersensitive to sensory stuff? Does she have insomnia like crazy that doesn't improve with meds?

Finally she asked... Does she have days she just doesn't eat or eats very little? Does she drink 25 glasses of wine a week and take a lot of stomach meds?

Holy crap.... Yes! To all of them.

Cousin said, "Then she needs to be tested for a severe thiamine deficiency and B12 deficiency. That's B vitamin dementia. I hope it isn't permanent damage yet. My sister had permanent damage by the time she was 50."

This is big and scary and possibly good.

I have nowhere to share this. I'm just overwhelmed in so many ways.

RDM

If your wife has all those symptoms that your cousin asked about, has she seen and been examined by her doctor? Has she been tested? Blood tests? If that's what you suspect and if she hasn't seen her doctor about these symptoms, then she needs to go.

The thing is, one of the possible things with B vitamin dementia is the feeling of being persecuted and gaslit.

She has had some significant memory gaps in the past year that get explained away as me lying to her, etc. They were small. Infuriating, but small.

It's just in the past month I realized she couldn't put events from the last 2 years in chronological order, even though there were big markers.

A neighbor lost a spouse, had a kid graduate and sold their old home. We were there for support throughout, including the funeral, prepping the house for sale, moving day... My wife can't put those things in order and tells me I'm lying and trying to gaslight her, playing games and messing with her thinking when Ive said, "The dad died the year before the daughter graduated, not a few days before. They were in the new house last Christmas not the old house."

They're a few houses down. Our oldest is the same age. She can't sort this chronologically with our own kid's graduation as a time stamp.

It does you no good to try to diagnose her yourselves. She needs to see a doctor, and conversations need to happen with her around what you suspect. Hopefully, you can speak with her about these symptoms and get her to agree that she needs to be evaluated.

Yes, she does need to see a doctor and quick!

Vitamin deficiencies can manifest themselves in many different ways. As can dehydration, infections (water, chest, etc). Memory problems are often (wrongly) associated with dementia.

Wishing you luck and please report back

Remembering events in neighbors’ lives wouldn’t be an indication of anything for me. I certainly wouldn’t engage in arguments about it. Not important.

Her other behaviors are concerning though. But it doesn’t sound as anything new. She does need to see a doctor. If she is as sick as she says she is and is unable to work or go to school or even do much around, she must be on disability. She can’t be just laying around if she is that sick. She must be in treatment and contribute with disability check

Wow. I could have written a great deal of this thread. I am wife to someone with very similar behaviors/issues. He is working still, but I fear he is having a lot more trouble at work than he admits to (and he is having trouble).

He had some health issues in the past that caused them to send him directly to brain MRI when he finally would go to the doctor. Brain MRI showed nothing structurally wrong. He couldn't pass the basic Neuro tests, but had low B12. Doctor said it wasn't bad but suggested he take megadose B12 for a year. Two weeks later he hopped into a sort of hypomanic phase (not unusual for him, but he can't see it), declared he was fine and that I'm the problem, stopped taking it. Honestly, I don't think the B12 is his only problem- if it's a problem at all. I think he's probably got a comorbity situation going on. Even with the neuro issues, since he still goes to work, they aren't interested in looking any further for issues. He did finally start going to therapy.

One thing that stood out in your posts was your inability to have a conversation with her without it getting turned around on you. None of my needs have been met in the past few years, and my viewpoint is not ever seen during conversations. Instead, the whole thing gets turned around that I am insulting him and tearing him down. Always ends with his anger blamed on something he perceived I did. I think I'm going to have to stop talking to him for the most part. It's counterproductive. I've looked at grey rocking- which someone else mentioned. I do it to some extent to get through, but with him, if I do it indefinitely, he takes that as a sign that everything is fine. As long as everyone always agrees with him and doesn't counter him, everything is fine.

It's Sunday right now and he's been stonewalling dd and myself since Friday. He comes across as very manipulative. The other day he had a fit and then locked himself in the master bedroom. Our teenage dd said, "if he wants to act like a spoiled brat, let him have a time out.". Which is how we handle these things- as if he is a child. Don't reward the bad behavior.

Funny thing, and maybe you can think about this in regard to your wife, the things he does are what he's always done to some extent. Parts of his personality are missing now (the fun and joyful parts), but he's always had an underlying "jerk" streak, though it use to be countered by the nicer parts of him, kwim? He always used the silent treatment against me to some extent, knowing it's painful, but it wasn't used for days on end, and he would acknowledge it and apologize back then. It's like he cared then, and is unable to care now.

Are you familiar with borderline personality? Maybe someone already mentioned it? I think this is my DH and learning about it has given me more tools. I think he was probably high functioning bpd, and I played along unknowingly for years before growing to a new place where I outgrew those dramatic situations. He did definitely get worse too. Did your wife get worse after the kids came? My DH did. Bpd is often associated with childhood trauma (which he undoubtedly has) and I wonder if our dd going through age appropriate stages was triggering for him and made things worse.

Some days I think he's on the bipolar scale, some days I think he has a form of dementia that begins with the behavioral centers of the brain (bvftd), but honestly, I just don't know and am at the point of not caring. He talks to a counselor once a week and a psychiatrist every few months, but I don't know what he tells them and don't think they are getting the big picture. He use to be very different, very kind, and they have no idea how much he's changed. Maybe it doesn't matter.

One diagnosis that's certain in our house is my sickness of codependency. Someone else mentioned that here. Doing codependency work on myself has been the most helpful thing, and the only real thing within my control. It's helped me detach from him, make him responsible for his own stuff, and also taught me to do a better job of taking care of myself. Didn't realize how little I took care of myself while enabling him and trying to raise our dd. I barely know myself anymore.

Honestly, if I could afford to walk away today, I would. But I can't. Financially I don't have options, and having an underage kid worries me, though less now than when she was younger. She understands more and I worry less and less about his family trying to take her away from me at this point. But anyhow, I pray a lot, spend time with my kid and do codependency work. Nothing's changed with him except that I don't waste as much time and don't beat myself up as much.

Sorry this got long. Maybe there are some helpful nuggets in there. Your posts made me feel much less alone today.

I feel for you, RD...

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDMercer I like this. It's like self validation. I think I will add the things I know she's done to extend herself to all of us and cope. My fear is, just SELF affirmation will polarize my thinking. She's vulnerable. I was able to progress in my career along the way too. Things like that were never celebrated because, as she said, it's a reminder she's been dead weight for a long time by comparison. My career progression in part off set our lost income. The energy for others is infuriating, but she is finally able to leave the house regularly. I helped her find health answers along the way, but she went through a large surgery in May that finally propelled things forward. Thank you

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDMercer I carried a lot of the responsibility for a long time. I'm in therapy to just vent. After 2 years, I don't know if it helped. Maybe focused on the negative too much. Our oldest is in HS. A few months ago he said, I think you think you aren't much of a man because mom gets so angry at you. But I've seen you take her anger for long stretches, maybe hours, say little back, then be fully there for her when she needed you if she got really sick an hour later. You have more emotional control and you're more of a man than anyone I know. And you spent time with us, did homework with us, made meals, whatever, since years. LAST NIGHT, youngest kid voiced how cranky mom is with us lately, and how much time she spends with her new friends. I said, well, mom was stuck home for a long time. She needs friends. I also said, "Mom is cranky at me, not you. I haven't been very emotionally supportive lately." Kid said, "I've been alone a lot since kindergarten, and now she's feeling better, I'm still alone." Kid also said, "Maybe mom is like this because you aren't there for her enough, butDad, you do a lot. You work. You fix the house and the cars. You take us to sports or just to get out of the house, you drove me to school everyday. You cook. Maybe mom gets to have friends, but she could help you some too. You can't do everything and still, like, be there for her all the time too. I don't think she should be cranky at you." I've never said a word to them about this stuff. I'm floored today. Just floored. The kid that said that is yooooung.

You are a real sport. I am not sure what I would be doing if my wife told me that she was done. I don't think I would be thinking we could make it. You be strong and it sounds like you are doing the right stuff. A better man than I.

God speed!

Well.... A lot has happened.

Out oldest was away for much of the summer attending training at a college campus.

Me and the youngest spent quite a bit of time together. On one weekend trip, youngest cried for hours in the car about feeling pushed aside by mom/wife, and about al the stuff they were left to navigate on their own during times I wasn't around. There was a lot of pain and anger directed at mom/wife.

Oldest came home a couple of weekends and was barely around. When he came back home at the end of the summer, he'd be gone all day. When he was around he was sick to his stomach a lot. He finally broke down and said that he couldn't be home around mom/wife. In his words, he felt "gaslit as f**k" and like he was going out of his mind with some of the memory gaps and odd interactions he was having with his mom.

Something we never talk about is that she drinks. Rarely ever drunk, but drinks wine throughout the day. 7-10 bottles a week, and keeping strange sleep hours, and not eating much.

Someone raised a flag to me that there could be symptoms of vitamin B1, B6, and/or B12 dementia with the things we were seeing; stomach issues, sleep disruption, memory gaps filled in with confabulated stories, feelings of isolation and victimization are all symptoms.

My wife has surrounded herself in a narrative that she is isolated, that I don't support her in any meaningful way, that I am insulting and hateful, etc. and that her new friends are perfect, beautiful, empowered, and she can rely on them for anything. She's said this stuff to the kids. My youngest questioned her in several one on one conversations and said, "Like what" What does Dad say? What does Dad do?" and mom didn't have an answer. Kid, on our driving trip, spilled all this stuff out to me and said it didn't match with what they'd seen and mom couldn't give an example. Not one. Kid said they didn't believe it.

Twice my wife became very angry and spun out within minutes to divorcing and separating. Once in front of the kids. That happened after blaming me for something that clearly had not occurred, after she'd had a significant memory gap in something we'd talked and made plans for.

The second time, I blatantly drew the kids into it. The kids.... verbally tore her apart. She was stunned and had to listen. She couldn't deny that they were saying EXACTLY the same things I'd seen for years now. She couldn't deny the multiple examples they gave of her prioritizing herself over them, of her choosing to isolate herself, of her getting angry for no reason, of her memory gaps, etc.

She was convinced after all that, that we needed to divorce ASAP. She was clear.... Split finances, separate lives immediately. That was three weeks ago. We're still in the same house.

She did make changes though. She immediately stopped drinking. She began taking vitamin supplements. She started sleeping through the night. She began working more hours at work (increased from 5 hours a week to 35), she began eating more and gaining weight, and she began sleeping through the night. All within a month.

She remains convinced though that I have lied, twisted, manipulated her, mistreated her, failed to support her, etc. for years. The kids have gone OFF on her for saying these things to me. She is listening to them about their experiences to a significant degree, but she remains convinced all feelings things towards me are accurate and that I'm just horrible.

I'm very, very nearly done.

This will be a huge financial hardship, but I'm ready to at least go see a lawyer. I hate this. I love her. I don't know what the heck happened.

RDMercer

It’s very possible your wife is suffering from alcohol abuse disorder. Individuals like this are often delusional and exhibit confusing behavior patterns. Yes, they are in a loop is dysfunctional behavior patterns that is unhealthy for family and children.

Their life revolves around the alcohol, be it active in the disease or in recovery.

I am sorry you and your children are dealing with this.

If she has been drinking more than a bottle of wine a day for an extended period of time....well that would explain a lot. Whether or not she is "drunk", that amount of alcohol will definitely and seriously affect her health and well-being, and how she interacts with others.

You might consider looking into Al-Anon. Al-Anon is for people who are dealing with someone who has an alcohol use disorder.

Also, look up Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome.

With regard to Wernicke....

I have a family member who lives about a day's drive away. She used to be a social worker, then took an office administration job in her city.

I called her to talk about my family situation, knowing she understood confidentiality, and that she was removed from the situation.

There have always been issues, and mental health issues in our home. But the last two years have just been mind blowing.

I can honestly say it was at the start of COVID things really began to change. Two things happened. 1. I was home for a month, and saw just how "off" things were, and how absolutely little she did during the day. 2.After years of counselling, I began to think, "This isn't all my fault" and I began to hold her accountable for actions. And by accountable I mean, saying things like, "I know I should have shown more interest when you talked about your day. But in the time we talked, you never asked about me and my day at all." THAT would cause a three day fight. Saying, "When you take your take-out cup in from the car, can you throw it out instead of leaving it on the counter," caused a 5 day backlash. No lie - 5 days of anger because how dare I find fault with her.

Anyway, I called this family member. She listened. Then asked for specific examples. Then asked for examples of the memory gaps. These were often filled in with stories like, "you're saying those things to confuse me and manipulate me". Then the kids began having the same experiences. Our oldest got so frustrated one day he asked her to stop the car and he walked home. His mom hasn't even acknowledged it happened since.

My cousin went through this list of symptoms, to which I said "yes" to all of them, except the shuffling gait. Finally cousin asked, "RDM, does she drink? And, does she drink regularly and not eat much."

Cousin was familiar with Wernicke's and had seen it. I was floored.

I met with a lawyer yesterday. Because I have a history of supporting her and providing for her, the expectation in divorce would be that she could continue to receive a high level of support for the next 10-20 years.

What's that saying???? "Why is divorce expensive? Because it's worth it."

Anyway. big things happening.

She is angry as h*ll these days, just under the surface. LOTS of tension, but she is being a parent for the first time in a long time. Driving kids to school, going to work, keeping a regular schedule.

RDM

I’m sorry, dealing with someone that is an alcoholic is hard. It’s a very selfish narcissistic disorder. The person is typically behind when it comes to maturity and especially when it comes to dealing with their emotions. They drink to numb emotions as well as to pursue dopamine to feel better. However, as they do this they slowly destroy their brain’s natural ability to produce dopamine on its own. It’s not unusual for the result being these angry out bursts. A month of not drinking after years of abusing alcohol is not very long. Also the individual has to learn how to finally mature and work through their emotions and insecurities. That is why participating in AA along with therapy is important so the person doesn’t end up drinking again. It’s not easy to learn how to live life sober.

There is a lot of gaslighting when it comes to dealing with an alcoholic. The person can gaslight long after they stop drinking. They gaslight themselves and being involved with AA can help as others can see it and call it out.

The alcoholic has to learn who they are, never mind be much of a consistent identity in a relationship.

I think that you would benefit from attending an al anon meeting and even seeing a therapist that understand the hurt YOU suffer being in a relationship with someone that is a long time alcohol abuser. Your children deserve to get help for this too because it most definitely has negatively affected them.

What I learned was that most marriages end up in divorce once the person gets sober and the partner is helped to understand the damage it has caused them.

Some stay together if they both abuse alcohol or drugs. They tend to live in a disfunctional loop. The loop you describe is very real and it HURTS spouse and children. It’s important you all get counseling so you don’t end up in yet another dysfunctional loop unknowingly.

These melt downs are awful and are probably imprinted in all of you physically. I believe you when you describe her anger and rage that can get triggered and last for days. Sounds like you learned to walk on eggshells. Me too and I am very sorry.

When I see the red flags in someone, I distance.

Well if she drinks, then it explains a lot. Her not being drunk doesn’t mean she is not an alcoholic. Plus more they drink more they need to get drunk. In fact the fact that’s if she’s not drunk after a bottle of wine might indicate that she had drinking problem. People who don’t drink would be wasted drinking a bottle. Her body got used to it. How’s she affording to buy alcohol if she doesn’t work. I’d cut her access to money immediately. There’s zero reason she should buy 7-10 bottles a week.

Alcoholics have memory gaps. And her rages likely caused by her having to increase alcohol dependency. She is getting more addicted and more tolerant to the amount of alcohol

You didn’t cause it and you can’t fix it. Very sad. I
Knew there’s more to the story with her

Just so you know, if she stopped drinking and is not getting help her behavior patterns won’t really change much. This is known as “dry drunk”. So that toxic loop with jobs and other relationships will all be in the same loop.

Can’t stress enough on how important it is to get education and help/support for yourself and your children. And for your children that are now young adults there is ALCOA support groups. (Adult Children of Alcoholics).

I'm sorry that your wife is treating you this way. I hope you will get help for yourself and your children.

And if she already has brain damage from the alcohol (likely), she will not be able to participate in any kind of therapy that will help. It will be lost on her.

I would definitely look into Al-Anon for yourself and the other programs for the kids so you can try to cope with this. Your wife probably also needs a neuropsychological evaluation to see how much cognitive damage she has.

You can’t fix your wife. But your children need help. Living with alcoholic parent damages them for life. They need therapy and Al Anon. Now.

Stop focusing on your wife and her well being. Focus on well being of your children by getting them out of this situation ASAP. If it means you will live in one bedroom apartment, sleep on a mattress on a floor and drive a junk car then be it.

Your responsibility right now is to save your children not to worry about your grown up wife while she chugs bottles of alcohol. Now it explains why she can’t hold a job and why she is depressed. No kidding!I’d chug a bottle of wine I’d vomit my brains out and surely wouldn’t be able to work next day and I’d be depressed in bed. Heck I feel depressed just thinking about it. She is in pain? Has bad memory? Anyone would be in pain pickling their brain every day. Geez.

Save your children and yourself. There’s help for people like her. She doesn’t want to? Not your problem. Your problem is your children. Not a grown woman who treats everyone like trash.

Also you need to stop asking her for empathy and loving behaviors. You aren’t going to ask for milk in a produce shop. . They don’t sell it. Don’t have it. Asking alcoholics to behave in a certain way is pointless. They don’t have it. Cant give it to you UNLESS they seek help. Which she’s not interested in

There is also Alateen, which is peer-support for teens who are dealing with someone who has an alcohol use disorder. This would be a good potential source of help for your children.