[HAL_9000]

A thread on /r/psychotherapy/ got taken down today. The author (a therapist) shared his dilemma about a client that has sexual attraction for him. He was rather open for suggestions from his colleagues both in his OP and the subsequent answers but all he got was shaming and punishment from the other therapists. They accused him for letting the client's 'transference' progress so much and they advised him to document everything and get away from the client. Therapists galore ready to jump to conclusions only after a few lines of indirect description of a client. There is no Kantian ethics in psychotherapy - ethics is synonymous with law there.

I know I'm jumping to sharp conclusions myself alongside the fact that I've never been a therapist. I've only been a client that has read through the obscure psychoanalytic literature. I claim that whenever a client develops attraction for the therapist there are two options to be explored, namely: "This is all transference, I'll trust the theory" or "I'll act it out". The sadistic therapist can easily be spotted if he or she appropriates both stances - "This is all transference and I'll intervene 'therapeutically'". I don't think there's a middle ground here - the client either gets crushed by rejection(which is the best that can happen to him), be rejected and still be given some hope(pray for those poor souls) or be handled the responsibility to maintain boundaries.
I think at that point it's fair for the client to ask the therapist to pay him.

Good luck feeble clients and hail thy therapist.

[nicoleflynn]

I think EVERY therapist should talk to a new client about the possibility of strong feelings that a client can develop for a t. It happens all of the time, and is normal, so instead of hiding what we (clients) are experienceing, talking about it is the best solution.....unless of course, the t is a shamer/blamer and ignorant about what can happen. Sadly, too many t's are ignorant and cause more trauma and pain. My t developed feelings for me; too long to go into here. I have a letter I have had for 5 years; must find the courage to give it to him.

I did not see that thread unfortunately, would have been very interested. I'm not a therapist either but I think this issue is far too complex and individual to jump to universal conclusions. I don't think that there is any way to avoid the transference from developing if the client's psyche is inclined that way, and while ignoring it from the T is most likely generally not a constructive strategy, some forms of therapy are just not designed to work with it (and those T's may not have the skill to work with it). What to do in those situations? Ideally, it may be best for the client and T to decide together whether it's best to end the work and refer the client to someone else or continue. But I think many of us, when we enter therapy, are not in a state of mind that can appropriately judge these questions.

Also, I really believe that for some patients experiencing the erotic transference and the T not trying to eliminate it but integrating into the work and even encouraging the feelings in indirect ways to serve a therapeutic goal can be very productive. It all depends on the individual's personality and history. I am saying this because I am just going through an experience like this and it works great to help slowly resolve issues that I have been struggling with for many years (not getting into it here). Working this way does require a great deal of discipline and self-awareness though on both ends, to keep on track. Also a certain level of being able to handle emotional stress. So if my T tried to nip my transference or treated it as something undesirable, we would not be able to do this productive work. But it's true that one has to be familiar with the concept of transference and accept it as such, to be able to work with it this way. It would most likely be pretty distressing and harmful if I thought about the feelings as "being in love" and was trying to act out that way or even just had intense longing to act on it that way.

The question whether it's best if the T talks to the client about the possibility of developing strong feelings at start... I don't know. I would say the same as above, that it perhaps depends on the client's individual case. And this is not that easy to accurately judge at the beginning of therapy I guess. For example, I can imagine that some people might see a T warning them about the feelings as self centered and narcissistic even if the intention is not that way. I tend to think it may be better to let the process develop freely and deal with the transference as it arises. Of course when a client is reluctant to talk about these feelings and/or the T is incompetent at handling the situation, that will create suffering and another type of challenge.

Also, I think that how therapists are able to manage transference also depends on the individual case, including their own reactions to a specific patient. I have no intention to defend unethical or ignorant T's but unless the harm is clear and persistent, I think it's much easier to criticize a T's behavior than doing it the "right way" at all times.

[BudFox]

This was a thread on this site? I did not see it. For god's sakes, the basic arrangement of therapy induces clients into these feelings and desires and impulses. Then when the client expresses such feelings, therapists go into freak-out mode. It's as if they can't see that they and the apparatus of therapy have orchestrated the whole thing.

Get away from the client… how utterly cowardly. The therapist needs to stick around and at least see the client through to some sort of stable place, if that's what the client wants.

Not sure what you mean by 2 basic options. I actually think there are no good options in this scenario. Seems the odds are low of a good outcome, though some seem to get through in one piece. I do not see this whole scenario as fundamentally legitimate. Seems like a very dangerous sort of manipulation and exploitation.

It was a thread on the subreddit "psychotherapy" on Reddit. Only psychotherapists are allowed to post there.

I read it before it was taken down and I felt the author was trying hard not to reject his client, explaining to the others about how his client felt awful for having a deep, year plus infatuation with him... but nearly all the therapists there shamed the client and suggested that the author terminate her.

Left a bad taste.

[TrailRunner14]

Wow!! I stumbled into this and I'm not sure what to make of it. It kind of makes me afraid of speaking to my counselor/therapist about the safety I feel with him. I have shared that with him, but not sure what to make of it now.

It's nothing sexual. I could live the rest of my life and never have that. It's more about being able to be who I really am and not feel like I owe him something or that I have to do something to make my safety be ok.

Does that make sense?

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I'm wondering if the responders were inexperienced therapists. I'd almost bet on that...

Experienced therapists* would know these feelings most always pass, and it's nothing to be alarmed about. And as was already mentioned, some useful work can be done through exploring sexual feelings. Which usually, if not always, have nothing to do with 'romance'.

And if you look at Ken Pope's research, some 90+ percent of therapists have sexual feelings for their clients back. Really strange to think one trained in human behavior should run away from normal human behavior.

Oh, the irony!

*maybe i should say-experienced, competent therapists.

Yes, Trail, I was rattled too because I read the entire thread in it's entirety before it was taken down.

Made me fear that if I developed a strong erotic transference, that if it doesn't fade "in time", T would be advised by others to refer out.

What really worried me was how the author honestly repeatedly explained how he wanted alternatives to referral...because he knew his client would be extremely hurt due to abandonment issues and he stated his client has few supports and resources, plus he stated how his client blamed herself because she would try her best NOT to talk about those feelings yet she couldn't help but slip and would get really upset with herself...and the author really wanted to help her hurt less...and nearly all the other therapists were saying he should have referred her out a long time ago etc.

I was left thinking these Ts really don't understand transference! If someone has a deprived background and meets a T who is empathic, compassionate, listens well, hears you and sees you...and you never had it before in your life, of course you're going to be infatuated and enthralled!

And if due to trauma or whatever, your interpersonal relationships are few and shallow... of course you're going to get attached to your therapist whose giving you titrated shots of what you always lacked.

I honestly found the responses of the other therapists punitive and shaming.

I agree with seahorse that I bet those therapists are inexperienced and I feel they're likely NOT trauma-informed.

My T is inexperienced, just two years out of her doctorate and under 30 years old yet she is nonjudgmental about my strong feelings of love towards her.

She believes that her style of therapy (schema therapy) is not meant to be detached and business-like but that she fosters a secure attachment to her and does limited reparenting within the agency's strict rules.

I feel really bad for the therapist who started that thread, asking for help.

He's welcome to post here, that's for sure. I'm sure we'd be more helpful to him then those therapists.

[TrailRunner14]

There are tears.

I'm reading "The Body Keeps the Score" and that's rocking my world!! I have had disorganized attachment all my life. I've never really understood what it's like to have a true and honest relationship, especially with a man that does not except something from me.

Forgive me. I've responded badly to what I've read here. It my internalization of it and no ones fault.

I just don't think I've ever thought of it in this way.

Thank you for what you have posted.

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[TrailRunner14]

Originally Posted by seahorse

I feel really bad for the therapist who started that thread, asking for help.

He's welcome to post here, that's for sure. I'm sure we'd be more helpful to him then those therapists.

I agree!

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How coincidental, Trail, I picked up the same book last night!

I honestly don't think you've said anything needing an apology. I think anyone with a strong, intense attachment to their T would have read that thread and be fearful due to all those therapists suggesting referral.

[therapyishelping777]

exactly... don't so many of us fear this same thing.. we finally get attached to someone we think is safe, if we admit it then are rejected and turned away for referral..yikes.. scary

[TrailRunner14]

Originally Posted by QuietMind

How coincidental, Trail, I picked up the same book last night!

I honestly don't think you've said anything needing an apology. I think anyone with a strong, intense attachment to their T would have read that thread and be fearful due to all those therapists suggesting referral.

Thank you!

That book is amazing!! It has made reality of what I've experienced and am now trying to make sense of.

When I first got it, I went through it scanning for help. Now, I'm really reading it. It makes so TOTAL sense with how I feel and function now.

I hope you get the same from it.

Thank you!

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[BudFox]

QuietMind: Based on what you are describing, I am basically the client in that thread. I developed overpowering infatuation and obsession with my T -- emotional, sexual. I became dependent, like an addict. I have few supports and resources (also chronically ill and so physically weak). I have a deprived background (both as child and adult). My T was empathic, compassionate, listened very well and was very present. I felt seen and heard and understood in a way that was unprecedented. She was also subtly seducing me, by self disclosing, giving me special treatment, getting emotionally involved with me, even a bit of subtle flirting.

Eventually she rejected me, saying she did not share my feelings. After that it was a torment and a nightmare. But the attachment/addiction kept me there. She sought supervision. It was evident that she had been advised to distance herself and probably to refer out, though she did not push it right away. Termination became another profound rejection, and triggered horrific abandonment depression. She also betrayed me by withdrawing her door always open promise. In the aftermath, she became punitive and shaming and infantilizing, in response to my asking for additional help and not going away quietly. When I began to point out the harm done and mistakes made, she became hostile and began using evasive clinical language and subtly deflecting blame. Likely she was being advised to cut me off asap to avoid further liability.

Clearly she and whoever was giving advice are ignorant about early trauma and its manifestations in therapy. I was a problem to be managed and then eliminated. The experience has been ruinous. It was humiliating, abusive, exploitive, crazy-making, sadistic, and traumatizing. Caveat emptor.

[BudFox]

BTW, I just finished reading Body Keeps the Score about a month ago. Very good book. Have also watched some of van der Kolk's videos. I like his style. He knows his stuff, knows how to explain it, and is not afraid to say bulls**t when he sees it.

[Myrto]

Originally Posted by BudFox

QuietMind: Based on what you are describing, I am basically the client in that thread. I developed overpowering infatuation and obsession with my T -- emotional, sexual. I became dependent, like an addict. I have few supports and resources (also chronically ill and so physically weak). I have a deprived background (both as child and adult). My T was empathic, compassionate, listened very well and was very present. I felt seen and heard and understood in a way that was unprecedented. She was also subtly seducing me, by self disclosing, giving me special treatment, getting emotionally involved with me, even a bit of subtle flirting.

Eventually she rejected me, saying she did not share my feelings. After that it was a torment and a nightmare. But the attachment/addiction kept me there. She sought supervision. It was evident that she had been advised to distance herself and probably to refer out, though she did not push it right away. Termination became another profound rejection, and triggered horrific abandonment depression. She also betrayed me by withdrawing her door always open promise. In the aftermath, she became punitive and shaming and infantilizing, in response to my asking for additional help and not going away quietly. When I began to point out the harm done and mistakes made, she became hostile and began using evasive clinical language and subtly deflecting blame. Likely she was being advised to cut me off asap to avoid further liability.

Clearly she and whoever was giving advice are ignorant about early trauma and its manifestations in therapy. I was a problem to be managed and then eliminated. The experience has been ruinous. It was humiliating, abusive, exploitive, crazy-making, sadistic, and traumatizing. Caveat emptor.

I keep reading about your experience with your therapist and honestly I have one question: what was your therapist supposed to do? Do you really think she was going to be your wife/partner/girlfriend? Of course she was going to reject you. Of course. And you were always going to suffer. Maybe it's time to move on? Honestly I don't see what your therapist could have done that would have eased your suffering, except become what you wanted her to be and what she could never be for you.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by Myrto

I keep reading about your experience with your therapist and honestly I have one question: what was your therapist supposed to do? Do you really think she was going to be your wife/partner/girlfriend? Of course she was going to reject you. Of course. And you were always going to suffer. Maybe it's time to move on? Honestly I don't see what your therapist could have done that would have eased your suffering, except become what you wanted her to be and what she could never be for you.

Oh god. I regretted posting that right after i hit the button. I posted what I did because it related directly to what was being discussed.

[Luce]

Budfox, I honestly can't even imagine how traumatic that experience was for you. I want to say I am sorry that happened, but am aware that sounds incredibly pathetic in the face of your experience.

[HAL_9000]

Originally Posted by Myrto

I keep reading about your experience with your therapist and honestly I have one question: what was your therapist supposed to do? Do you really think she was going to be your wife/partner/girlfriend? Of course she was going to reject you. Of course. And you were always going to suffer. Maybe it's time to move on? Honestly I don't see what your therapist could have done that would have eased your suffering, except become what you wanted her to be and what she could never be for you.

What if the therapist said at the very start of therapy: "Listen, sometimes therapy induces deep feelings and longings and I want you to know that we'll never act these out. I'm in my professional role when we meet and this will remain that way. We would never meet socially and I hold the upper hand. Hopefully this relationship can help you with your issues or it can ultimately be harmful for you. Please think about that and let me know if it's acceptable to you." If I could hypothetically apply this to my own case I would've said that I'm attracted to her and that I want to go out with her and things could've developed naturally one way or the other. At that point is it really obvious that she's going to reject me? Maybe she likes me too maybe she doesn't, who knows. Of course therapy gets in the way. Of course she'd never open therapy in that way. If there's no informed consent from the start and if the therapist botches the relationship who is to blame then? "This all transference, the client is projecting onto me, I can't do anything about it", "My therapist is a manipulative ***** that got me tangled into her web" these two stances can pretty much coincide and never be resolved. I've been through a similar situation to BudFox's and I think your comment is condescending. What could the therapist have done? Informed consent =_=

[frackfrackfrack]

This is an interesting question about an informed consent statement. I wonder why they don't do it. Could it be that knowing you might develop a strong attachment from beforehand would interfere with the development of the attachment or change it in some way? Or has the theory just moved too slowly and not caught up and this could be a good idea. Or could it be that even with this, we would still feel badly about the whole situation.

[unaluna]

How naive are people?? Or how bad at simple arithmetic? You are not the only person that the T sees. The T is probably not the only person that you encounter in your daily life. Unless you're living under the Taliban.

If the issue comes up, it MEANS you have ALREADY have the issue and you should probably take this opportunity to work on it. Isn't that why you're in therapy? If you go to the doctor and you think you have cancer and he says not cancer but alzheimers, then what do you try to fix??

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by frackfrackfrack

This is an interesting question about an informed consent statement. I wonder why they don't do it.

Because they get away with not doing it. Much easier. Plus if therapists gave true informed consent, itemizing the serious risks, explaining what is involved, giving some data on their track record and outcomes, giving a true account of their own personal mental health issues and the degree to which they have addressed them… it would be bad for business. They also should be giving a meaningful explanation of their methods, but often do not, because attempting it would probably show how much most are improvising and have no method.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by HAL_9000

What could the therapist have done? Informed consent =_=

I agree that informed consent would be one thing to mitigate or avoid harm. It's part of running an ethical biz. But to be honest I don't even recognize the basic legitimacy of drawing out someone's deepest longings and desires, and then attempting to use that as a therapeutic device. The potential for violating "first do no harm" seems too high. Unless the profession can show that it consistently avoids harming people with this practice, it ought to stop.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by BudFox

I agree that informed consent would be one thing to mitigate or avoid harm. It's part of running an ethical biz. But to be honest I don't even recognize the basic legitimacy of drawing out someone's deepest longings and desires, and then attempting to use that as a therapeutic device. The potential for violating "first do no harm" seems too high. Unless the profession can show that it consistently avoids harming people with this practice, it ought to stop.

Because "someone's deepest longing and desire" often is simply to return to the womb, to be taken care of - a handle (or therapeutic device) to grab on most humans?