do we limit god by saying he can't do the impossible?

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_Sky said:
I could debate you, but this isn't what this forum is for.

No one thinks like God, and some of what is being posted isn't even fully understanding the possibilities within the mind of man...quantum physics and the space time continuum.

If you have a problem with God, then don't post about Him, Post about what you do believe in for spiritual strength. OK? Please?

I believe that if you try to limit God, you aren't limiting Him, you are denying Him. That is cause for a debate,imo, which I won't have.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I'm with ya 100%

> I believe that if you try to limit God, you aren't limiting Him, you are denying Him. That is cause for a debate,imo, which I won't have.

Except that the question was:

Is saying that God can't do the logically impossible a case of limiting him?

Your statement presupposes an answer to the question (and it isn't an answer I endorse as I've already said).

I've also posted about what I intended the point of this thread to be, though I'll say it again:

Contemplating the nature of God can help us get clearer on his nature.

But only if one accepts the rules of rational discourse. If people don't accept the rules of rational discourse then contemplating the nature of God actually won't help us get clearer on his nature and it actually won't help us get clearer on the role of reason and faith.

Why not?

Because people are throwing reason out the window.

The trouble with throwing reason out the window is that that is precisely what fuels scientific hostility to the notion of god and to religion more generally.

It is a shame because there is a middle way...

But people are... Too afraid their faith will flag if they accept the rules of rational discourse? They don't have faith that one can apply reason and still end up with a conception of god that is worthy of worship.

Sigh.

Good luck to you people.

I do think it is appropriate to have this forum on a mental health board... I know currently religion is one of the exclusion criteria... But if people insist on being hostile to science I'm sure the favour will be returned in the near future and one day this forum will be moved in keeping with the other psychotic disorders.

Good luck to you people.

Oh stop it. The subject line is what I refer to. And yes, I believed all along you were trying to debate so this forum would be closed. I hope you find someone to discuss this in your format some other way.

> I believed all along you were trying to debate so this forum would be closed.

I don't want this forum to be closed. I have posted in the past in support of this forum. I was a little peeved at the time that Doc John didn't think it was a good idea, and I'm happy that he has changed his mind on the issue.

One thing that might be worth thinking about...

Is how much our preconceptions influence the way we interpret others. We respond to people on the basis of our preconceptions and quite often if our preconceptions are uncharitable then we evoke the behaviour we are most fearful of.

What I wanted to do...

Was to talk with the people who were willing to see that reason and faith are both important and that they compliment each other.

I then wanted to use reason to contemplate Gods nature...
To see what the limits of reason are...
So as to understand where reason leaves off and faith starts...
To see that they compliment each other and work in harmony.

Kind of like how theorists are currently starting to investigate emotion and reason and are seeing that we are best off if they work in harmony and that if we set them up to oppose each other it only leads to conflict and disorder.

I wanted to investigate those issues...

But some people don't seem willing / able to do that.
Maybe because of their preconceptions about me.
Maybe because they are so concerned about losing their faith they are afraid to look at the role of reason.
Maybe because they aren't willing to try and see what I'm saying because they are concerned I'll lead them along an insideous path towards godlessness, immorality, and despair...

Hmm, I just find this whole thing interesting. Everyone comes to this from the angle of their own beliefs. Whether that be that God is perfect and infallible and omnipotent etc or whether that be following the rules of rational logic. Odd thing is, all of these thoughts are our thoughts from our perspective, not God's. Who is to say that the rules of rational logic are perfect or even accurate for example. That was something thought up by a fallible human. As well as many of the opinions of God and God's nature. i.e. in one argument it was stated that if God allows evil to exist, which causes suffering then he can't be all loving. Or he doesn't know about it so he's not all knowing etc. But honestly, who is to say that if evil things happen that means God is not all loving. Many a child would say their parents are not all loving because they ground them for a week. Maybe evil, or suffering are a necessary component to our existence and a loving God allows them to happen for our ultimate benefit. I guess what I'm saying is that the rules of rational logic are not infallible and perfect. Therefore they are not necessarily a good foundation for a discussion of this type. They can be if everyone agrees that they are the measure we want to apply to the problem, but if that doesn't happen then it only results in debate and hard feelings because each side thinks the other is arrogant and or not following the rules. A no win.

> Everyone comes to this from the angle of their own beliefs.

Sure. I guess I was trying to move from the issue of our beliefs about Gods nature to possible candidates for Gods nature, however.

> Whether that be that God is perfect and infallible and omnipotent etc or whether that be following the rules of rational logic.

I think it is strange to set those notions up as being inconsistent, like we have to choose between them. I would have thought perfection would entail consistency. Logicians and Mathemeticians often say they are attracted to their subject because of the beauty / perfection they find there. Current logics and Mathematics are imperfect though because of our finite cognitive capacities and because we are only just getting started on investigating them (in the big scheme of things). I'm pretty sure that God (if he exists) has a grasp of logic and mathematics that is perfect (ie where the logic and mathematics that he grasps is free from contradiction).

> Who is to say that the rules of rational logic are perfect or even accurate for example.

Current logics do have problems. What is it for Mathematics or Logic to have problems? It is when you can deduce a contradiction from the axioms. There are contradictions that can be deduced by the axioms of classical logic and that has led to the development of new logics such as intuitionist logic, fuzzy logic, quantum logic etc. The crucial thing here is that our finding a contradiction is what forces us to admit that classical logic is imperfect and that is what inspires us to develop more perfect logics that do not entail contradiction. Similarly if we find our conception of god is contradictory philosophical wisdom is that we should admit that our conception of God is imperfect and that should inspire us to develop a more adequate conception that does not contain contradiction.

Of course our cognitive capacity is limited and as such it is likely that even if we work on this... We will never hit upon a completely adequate conception of God in our lifetime. But then the same thing can be true of logic or mathematics. That doesn't mean we should give up and accept contradiction, contradiction (cognitive dissonance) is supposed to be what encourages us to progress forward to a more adequate conception.

> ...in one argument it was stated that if God allows evil to exist, which causes suffering then he can't be all loving. Or he doesn't know about it so he's not all knowing etc.

Yes, that is known as the 'problem of evil'.

> But honestly, who is to say that if evil things happen that means God is not all loving.

Indeed. So here one would be using the problem of evil to contemplate how an all loving being could allow evil to exist in the world. (This is how one can use the problem of evil to contemplate Gods nature).

> Many a child would say their parents are not all loving because they ground them for a week. Maybe evil, or suffering are a necessary component to our existence and a loving God allows them to happen for our ultimate benefit.

Yes, maybe. There is the 'character building' defence that states that God allows us to suffer because it helps us build character. We are better people for building character and hence the most loving thing that God could do would be to have suffering in the world so that it makes us better people.

There is also the 'free will' defence that states that God gave us free will because he loves us and having free will is a great good indeed but that an inevitable consequence of free will is that some people will use it to do bad.

There are responses to each of the above theodicies (or defences), and then there are responses to each of the responses etc... Theologians and Philosophers often contemplate these arguments, however, because they find it helps them better understand the different reasons as to why there might be evil in the world even though there is an all loving, all powerful (though that continues to be problematic), and all knowing God.

I guess it is important to distinguish between individual arguments which may well be fallible and the logical principle of non-contradiction. Individual arguments might be invalid or their premises might be false in which case we don't have rational grounds for accepting the conclusion. The problem of evil is interesting in the sense that it raises a problem. People have attempted to solve the problem in a variety of ways but in order to solve the problem one needs to face the problem first. I think that both believers and non-believers struggle with the problem of evil on some level. Why does God allow so much suffering in the world? Coming to some sort of understanding can help one find peace...

If we set things up so that there is faith on the one hand and reason on the other and one must choose between them then I really believe that it is this move that results in the hostility between religious people and scientists. I really do believe that there is a middle way but in order to find it one needs to accept the role (rules) of reason and one needs to accept the role (and scope) of faith.

IMO
Scientists need to see that they rely on faith more than they think they do and that religious faith is not different in kind from faith in unobservables such as quarks and the number seven. There is no hard line to be drawn between reason and observation (thanks to Quine) and faith.

But religious people need to accept the role of reason and observation (the deliverances of science) and stop seeing these things as 'the enemy'.

If a middle ground is not found then there will be many hostilities in the future as Gods of different religions clash and scienctists increasingly start to think of religions as being irrational...

OK - this is my thought on the last eight or twelve post.......

NO ONE is DEBATING the EXISTENCE or POWER of GOD..... and just because one may ask many questions or has a few doubts (which is normal by the way) it does not mean that they are limiting or debating GOD (so PLEASE - once and for all - let it GO!) and IF any of us truly believe in Gods POWER then let Him take care of ALL the people and how they personally need to LEARN / SEEK Him.... from their side of the fence and not that of how another thinks it should be done.

BTW - if truth was to be told straight out.... We are not really representing God at all, as one of His children, if we are to defeat a persons desire to be closer to God for we do not like the way they are going about it.... That Which is being done All to Often! - and I say that from personal experience of some one else trying to talk me into changing my ways to that of what the other person felt was a better way or the correct way for it to be accomplished.

I love each and everyone of the members here on PC and I am not trying to debate any one or trying to pick a fight..... but I am quite frankly tired of seeing any one trying to change the ways of another just because one thinks things should be done differently than they are..... we are all unique individuals and we are entitled (have the right) to ask-seek-perform-create-heal-learn things-matters-issues the way we NEED them to be.

IF we are to preach God and talk Acceptance within a SUPPORT FORUM then we better all get our ducks in a row, for having just one of them out of place will cause it all to tumble.

* * * * * * * * *

LoVe,
Rhapsody - ((( hugs )))

(((((Rhap))))) thank you for saying that so well......

Thanks for your thoughts :-)

I think...
I think things are going okay?

I hope they are.

If people feel accused / attacked / judged / upset etc with aspects of my posts I am open to people saying 'when you said xxx(quote) then I felt (sad, mad, like you were criticising, attacking, judging etc)'.

In fact, if people say this to me then we have the opportunity to sort out misunderstanding instead of things kind of building up inside and exploding at some point.

I really do try and be a good person in the sense of being tolerant and patient and charitable to others to the best of my ability.

I am surely imperfect, however :-(
Sometimes I don't phrase things in the best way :-(
Sometimes I do say things in the heat of the moment :-(
I do think that I am fairly good at responding well when people point out how they are responding to my posts, however.
There is no guarantee that my behaviour will change...
But I do try and be accomodating as much as possible and I do try and find a middle ground.

I think there was bound to be some teething problems with the faith board as people figure out what it is about and what you can do on the board etc.

But we are okay?

I think we are?

How is everyone doing?

I'm enjoying this discussion and I do appreciate hearing peoples thoughts on this issue. I might not agree with everything everyone says but I'm fairly confident that not everyone agrees with everything I say and that is terrific. Part of the value of discussion in fact.

Thanks for the discussion people.

My apologies if I misunderstood, but this is not spirituality that is being discussed IMO but philosophy. SO maybe we should ask DocJohn for a forum for it?

I was under the impression that the Spirituality Forum would be a place to come and NOT find discord such as this. Not find any debate about what I or anyone else believed, but acceptance that I need prayer or you want to share an uplifting story etc.

I, personally, am NOT doing well with this.

> I was under the impression that the Spirituality Forum would be a place to come and NOT find discord such as this. Not find any debate about what I or anyone else believed, but acceptance that I need prayer or you want to share an uplifting story etc.

If you need prayer or want to share an uplifting story then you can. You can start a thread for that any time you wish. If you find this thread not to your tastes then you can read other threads that are more to your tastes or you can start a thread on whatever you want support with or whatever you want to discuss.

I don't really see this as a 'debate', I guess I see it as more of a 'discussion'. Different people have been sharing their views and I've appreciated hearing about what different people think. I might not agree with everything they say, but then I'm sure they don't agree with everything I say either.

If you don't want to participate in the discussion there are other threads and you can always start your own.

> I, personally, am NOT doing well with this.

I'm sorry you aren't doing well with this.

Maybe you would do better if you stuck to the threads you find to be uplifting.

Take care.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
We are not really representing God at all, as one of His children,

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Speaking strictly for myself, I AM.

Well I could move on but every time I see the forum it has this thread sticking out at me

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
This Sanctuary is a place for people of all spiritual beliefs and faiths to offer support and compassion to each other in the form of prayers, meditation, and expressions of spirituality. This forum is for support, not religious debate.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
What I wanted to do...

Was to talk with the people who were willing to see that reason and faith are both important and that they compliment each other.

I then wanted to use reason to contemplate Gods nature...
To see what the limits of reason are...
So as to understand where reason leaves off and faith starts...
To see that they compliment each other and work in harmony.

Kind of like how theorists are currently starting to investigate emotion and reason and are seeing that we are best off if they work in harmony and that if we set them up to oppose each other it only leads to conflict and disorder.

I wanted to investigate those issues...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Since DocJohn's words aren't enough, perhaps we need him to weigh on this particular line of questioning? OR I could just leave without any spiritual support at all.

Again, I read most of the posts as textbook offerings not the "I" statements that would show me your personal voyage. I agree with September, as I certainly am a child of God. I also become a bit miffed when ppl debate His existence even under the premise of support. IMO there shouldn't be any thread in this forum that I wouldn't feel comfortable posting into, based upon how I am reading the forum goals. If I'm reading them wrong... ???

> Well I could move on but every time I see the forum it has this thread sticking out at me

And so then you absolutely have to have to have to must read it and respond to it? I mean there is absolutely no way that you can take a deep breath and think a little about how you don't seem to feel so good participating in this thread and then make a decision not to participate or not to read?

See... If we are looking at comprimise there seems to be two options. Firstly, you could complain to Doc John or one of the moderators and attempt to get this thread locked and or 'moved' to the trash. I personally think that that would be a great shame as (and other people can correct me if I'm wrong with that) but other people have participated on this thread and they have shared their thoughts and so you see this thread isn't just about me. Other people have been participating too. But one option would be that because you feel upset in response to this thread you attempt to get it closed down or locked because you are simply unable to refrain from reading or responding to it.

Another option would be for you to decide not to read or respond. Or if you insisted on reading and responding and persisted in feeling bad then you thought a little bit about how other people have responded to this thread too and so you see it isn't about me.

One of the things that most probably comes into play with respect to whether a thread gets locked / deleted or not is probably whether anybody complains or not. Unless a poster is fairly clearly hurting, attacking, lashing out, judging, accusing, being hostile to another poster etc then I really don't see why on earth people would complain rather than simply refrain from reading / responding however.

It is about tolerance and about appreciating that 'to each his own'.

> I could just leave without any spiritual support at all.

Why don't you start your own thread or post in response to others threads?

> Again, I read most of the posts as textbook offerings not the "I" statements that would show me your personal voyage.

That might be how you read them. I think I'm fairly good with "I" statements, however...

> I also become a bit miffed when ppl debate His existence...

Please don't jump to conclusions about me.

Thanks for your tolerance in advance.

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_Sky said:
This Sanctuary is a place for people of all spiritual beliefs and faiths to offer support and compassion to each other in the form of prayers, meditation, and expressions of spirituality. This forum is for support, not religious debate.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I personally do not see any one causing a debate other than strife from the ones saying that some members are debating..... which IMO they are not!!

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
What I wanted to do...

Was to talk with the people who were willing to see that reason and faith are both important and that they compliment each other.

I then wanted to use reason to contemplate Gods nature...
To see what the limits of reason are...
So as to understand where reason leaves off and faith starts...
To see that they compliment each other and work in harmony.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Since DocJohn's words aren't enough, perhaps we need him to weigh on this particular line of questioning? OR I could just leave without any spiritual support at all.

Again, I read most of the posts as textbook offerings not the "I" statements that would show me your personal voyage. I agree with September, as I certainly am a child of God. I also become a bit miffed when ppl debate His existence even under the premise of support. IMO there shouldn't be any thread in this forum that I wouldn't feel comfortable posting into, based upon how I am reading the forum goals. If I'm reading them wrong... ???

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

YES, Sky.... you are entitled to seek and to find that which you are looking for..... but please do not stop others from doing the same, which btw may be totally different than that what you want.

Please keep in mind that none of us (not one member) can or should try to control how another persons thread / spiritual need is constructed.... that would be CONTROLLING and that is not what support is all about.... We can all post as we personally need with out it being taken the wrong way.

Sky... please re-read what you just wrote above concerning purpose of this forum, from my side of the fence we are all doing exactly what you stated you thought would happen in a Spiritual Thread - - it just is not the way you want it to be or assume it should be. BUT it is GOOD! - IMHO.

LoVe,
Rhapsody -

P.S.

YOU SAID:
IMO there shouldn't be any thread in this forum that I wouldn't feel comfortable posting into, based upon how I am reading the forum goals. If I'm reading them wrong... ???

MY REPLY:
IMO - You are reading (interpreting) them wrong..... for in the quote it says
"This Sanctuary is a place for people of all spiritual beliefs and faiths to offer support and compassion to each other in the form of prayers, meditation, and expressions of spirituality.

Is not what we all are doing here in this FORUM not considered expression of spirituality and acceptance of ALL beliefs &amp; faith? - keeping in mind that not all Faiths believe in Christ as the Messiah, and that some people relate to God in other ways beside the "I" statement, but that does not make it wrong.

I don't get it. How is questioning the infallibility of MY GOD part of YOUR expression of spirituality?

Please enlighten me.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
I don't get it. How is questioning the infallibility of MY GOD part of YOUR expression of spirituality?

Please enlighten me.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

For as I have stated before............... many people question as to seek and to find your-mine-their GOD, but I personally do not see what you feel is happening here in this thread as taking place..... IMO it is based on your personal interpretation of what others are meaning, and not necessarily fact or truth.


LoVe,
Rhapsody - ((( hugs )))

Ok. I only went to college to learn how ppl pick apart God and asking such foolish questions. Ihappen to need to believe in his power right now, and you guys aren't helping me find that. FOr all I know you are right, and I'm wrong and there is no ONE who will save me? YEah... that's good support thanks

Please feel free to start your own thread on God's unlimited power.

I won't post to that thread since my style is not to your tastes.

I'm not trying to upset you Sky.

I am sorry you are having a rough time at the moment.

I really do think it would be better if you continued your thoughts in your own thread for the reason that if you continue on this thread it is more likely to be perceived as a conflict or as support for the notion that a faith board can't work.

I think it would be in the best interests of all of us if the both of us took a step back from each other for a bit, okay?

We can reassess things in the future.

Take care.

If Sky was the only one that saw this thread as she does, then I might give some credence to what you say, Rhap. However, she's hardly the only one! Are you going to say that both Sky and I are delutional, then?

I truly believe that Alexandra is not ready to receive the truth about who and what God is. Her arguments FOR him are nonsense. She's caught up in trivia. I'm sorry that she can't accept him on FAITH alone.

However, neither you nor Alexandra have the right to tell Sky or anyone else not NOT post to this thread or to respond to your posts. It's in the guidelines somewhere. I'll just have to dredge up the patience to find it.

Again, let me remind you that not only this forum but the whole SITE is for SUPPORT. What you and Alexandra have posted to Sky is anything but supportive!

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SeptemberMorn said:
If Sky was the only one that saw this thread as she does, then I might give some credence to what you say, Rhap. However, she's hardly the only one! Are you going to say that both Sky and I are delutional, then?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

No.... but two people (you and Sky) hardly make up the majority..... and to be honest I am tired of arguing with You & Sky over every little thing with the entire PC Forum that does not match your way of thinking / seeing things.
I personally feel that it is time to STOP! - and to let others have a say in their own feelings and thoughts on any given subject.
It might be wise for others to see that their way is not the only way accepted or deemed right.... as you have been quick to let other people know when you felt the same concerning your post (feelings / thoughts).

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I truly believe that Alexandra is not ready to receive the truth about who and what God is. Her arguments FOR him are nonsense. She's caught up in trivia. I'm sorry that she can't accept him on FAITH alone.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

And YOU did when YOU were lost and a sinner? - IMO most people do not accept God in total FAITH when they are still seeking.... Please think about that thought for a moment.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
However, neither you nor Alexandra have the right to tell Sky or anyone else not NOT post to this thread or to respond to your posts. It's in the guidelines somewhere. I'll just have to dredge up the patience to find it.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

HEY!! - back up a moment there...... I NEVER SAID THAT -
... and as far as I can see no one else has either, that is just your wrong interpretation of what some actually said, which was: suggesting that Sky not read this thread if it offended her or that she could start another thread for what she is searching for in the Spiritual Forum and that the other person would stay away from it.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Again, let me remind you that not only this forum but the whole SITE is for SUPPORT. What you and Alexandra have posted to Sky is anything but supportive!

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

May YOU remember that as well............. for what you are saying here is far from supportive, and btw what I wrote was to help not to condemn - no matter if you took it the wrong way or not.

* * * * * * * * *

Personally all I can see if that no one is fighting here, except for the attacks you and Sky have placed onto another persons feeling..... and I say this out of the facts standing for themselves and from history repeating its self, but once again.

May we all take a giant step backward and look in the mirror at ourselves before we condemn another for the same thing that we are all to often doing...... yet we only see it in the other person, not the mirror.

* * * * * * * * *

I am not wanting a fight and I will not let you drag me into yet another one that I never intended to have..... may God send some peace and rest your way.

LoVe,
Rhapsody - ((( hugs )))

P.S.

IMO - if any one gets this thread locked or deleted it will be...... the ones with the wrong assumptions of what is or is not happening in here, for they will not let it go and will not stop trying to control simply because they disagree.

........................ I am thru with this one.

Rhap, your preception is skewed on this one for sure. I have NOT attacked anyone and the last thing I would do is attack anyone in this particular forum. IMO, it is your personal problem with me that has caused you to make these accusations.

Believe what you want, but I KNOW WHO I AM and nothing you say or any assumptions or misinterpretations you make will change that. I'm sorry you are so full of anger. It must really be uncomfortable.

Sky - I am not trying to fight with you and I am not trying to offend you..... but as we all know what we learn from books is not always the way it is in LIFE, for books and teachings are mere opinions of people (as you have often told me).

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
Ok. I only went to college to learn how ppl pick apart God and asking such foolish questions. Ihappen to need to believe in his power right now, and you guys aren't helping me find that. FOr all I know you are right, and I'm wrong and there is no ONE who will save me? YEah... that's good support thanks

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I do not believe that she is trying to pick God apart...... but you believe it to be true and that is why this thread has upset you so, but then again you thought some of the same things about me and they were not true - but you believed them to be with in your own mind.

PLUS.... when you said this: and I'm wrong and there is no ONE who will save me? YEah... that's good support thanks

* Those were your words not mine....... ((( hugs )))

LoVe,
Rhapsody -

How about backing away from this thread for a while and let your heart and soul rest..... ((( hugs )))

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
SeptemberMorn said:
Rhap, your preception is skewed on this one for sure. I have NOT attacked anyone and the last thing I would do is attack anyone in this particular forum. IMO, it is your personal problem with me that has caused you to make these accusations.

Believe what you want, but I KNOW WHO I AM and nothing you say or any assumptions or misinterpretations you make will change that. I'm sorry you are so full of anger. It must really be uncomfortable.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

(laughing) Sorry but I must....................... for YOU are wrong I am not full of anger (rarely ever entertain it) - but then again I understand for I feel the same toward you and why you go after me and my post a lot of the time.

LoVe,
Rhapsody -

.................................. PeAcE

(I just feel that we all need to let ppl be - to say and to do and they need as long as it is not against the rules with in this forum)

MY APOLOGIZE to EVERYONE having to ENDURE all this....... it does need to STOP!!!!