To judge or not to judge?

I would offer that we can judge actions without judging a person. We do not need to assign a punishment or anything against a person who does something that we judge to be an improper action. What is important is that we judge the action so that we know for ourselves whether to join in or stay clear of it. We have to judge what is right and what is wrong for ourselves. Condemning a person is beyond any authority that I ever even want to have. It is not for me to say whether a person can be redeemed or not after whatever they have done. But we all must judge actions on a daily basis.

Many scriptures have been shared from the Bible. Might I share a few more from other scripture? Whether or not you accept them, is for you to judge:
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Moroni 7:15 - For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 - For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

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You can see, this scripture is talking about judging things, not judging people. It continues on to include a caution:
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Moroni 7:18 - And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgement which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

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I can find many others that say basically the same thing. We must judge, and here is how to judge, but be careful about making judgements - it is a weighty matter that carries serious consequences. Other scriptures define who has the authority to judge which matters.

And some do petain to judging people in the sense of who to follow, or who to hang around with. Then we are told over and over that we will know "by their works" or "by their fruit." It might take some time to be able to see whether a person or group produces good fruit, or bad fruit, but eventually it becomes clear. The same is true of your own actions. Do you leave a trail of pain and destruction in your wake, or are people's lives changed for the better? It really brings it into perspective when I look at my own life and see that it is some of each. People are not all good or all bad, and people can and do change. That is what makes judging people so much more complex than judging actions, and such a greater responsibility.

hmm... bible says judging is ok...
bible says judging is not ok...

yeah that helps me live my life according to the supposed will of god...

i can judge people and when someone hits me up i can say 'but the bible SAYS its okay to judge'.

someone else can refrain from judging and when someone hits them up they can say 'but the bible SAYS its NOT okay to judge'.

wow.

the bible.

such a useful text on how one is to live their life...

There just isn't any effort on your part to even try and understand, is there? I'm not sure if this is splitting hairs or just generalizing way to heavily...

i'm sorry you feel that way

i appreciate your edit sept.

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_Sky said:
Well, even in a thread such as this, of quoting scripture, someone who doesn't follow Scripture has no business - in my judgment- posting in such a thread, unless it is for seeking understanding.

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I disagree. I don't believe any of us have any say in what is or is not anyone else's business when it comes to their beliefs.

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But just because I disagree doesn't give me the right to post that disagreement. Good judgment must prevail.

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Actually, unless Doc John has banned someone from posting here, anyone has the right to post their views, whether they are agreeing or disagreeing with the originator of a thread. Posting a comment which differs from, counters, or contradicts another's comment is not by nature unsupportive or argumentative.

gg

I agree with gg.

Having different opinions leads to good debate (for the most part - lol). How do we learn anything if we are not challenged by others?

Also, PMs like alexandra appears to be experiencing are ridiculous.

Some may do well to be mindful of the 'attack the post not the poster' guideline (something I try and remember myself with MORE success these days ... heh).

/backs off quietly

Who ever said that the Bible is supposed to give us a detailed map of what to do in all circumstances so that we never need to do any thinking for ourselves? There is a time and a place for everything.

Although Matthew 7:1 does say "Judge not, that ye be not judged," there is also another translation of that verse that makes a little more sense to me: "Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people. Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged: but judge righteous judgement."

The Bible was not meant to keep us from having to puzzle things out for ourselves. We have to exercise judgement to know what to do when, because one thing is not the right answer in all circumstances. If you will please allow me to share one more bit of LDS scripture tonight, Doctrine and Covenants 58: 26 tells us "For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward." We have to do our own thinking. The scriptures are meant to be a guide. Through studying them we learn to make the best choices that we can in a world that is not black and white.

Thanks, {{{{{{{{{{{Rap}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

> Who ever said that the Bible is supposed to give us a detailed map of what to do in all circumstances so that we never need to do any thinking for ourselves?

> The Bible was not meant to keep us from having to puzzle things out for ourselves. We have to exercise judgement to know what to do when, because one thing is not the right answer in all circumstances.

which is kind of what i was trying to say.

> i guess i meant to encourage christians to think about OTHER reasons (aside from the bible) why they might think that judging is or is not okay

sigh.

Vines:
Judge

krino primarily donotes "to separate, select, choose; hence, "to determine," and so "to judge, pronounce judgment," "The uses of this verb in the NT may be analyzed as follows: (a) to assume the office of a judge, Matt 7:1; John 3:17; (b) to undergo process of trial, John 3:18; 16:11; 18:31; James 2:12;(c) to give sentence, Acts 15:19; 16:4 21:25 (d) to condemn, John 12:48; Acts 13:27; Romans 2:27; (e) to execute judgment upon 2 Thessalonians 2:12; Acts 7:7; (f) to be invovled in a lawsuit, whether as plaintiff Matt 5:40; 1 Cor. 6:1; or as defendant: Acts 23:6; (g) to administer affairs, to govern; Matthew 19:28; cf Judges 3:10 (h) to form an opinion Luke 7:43; John 7:24; Acts 4:19; Romans 14:5, (i) to make a resolve Acts 3:13; 20:16; 1 Cor 2:2."

Judgment

krima denotes the result of the action signified by the verb krino, "to judge"; for its general significance see CONDEMNATION, B, No. 1: it is used (a) of a decision passed on the faults of others Matthew 7:2; (b) of "judgment" by man upon Christ, Luke 24:20; (c) of God's "judgment" upon men, eg Roman 2:2, 3, 3:8, 5:16, 11:33, 13:2; I Cor 11:29; Gal 5:10; Heb 6:2; James 3:1; through Christ, eg John 9:39; (d) of the right of "judgment" Rev 20:4; (e) of a lawsuit I Cor 6:7.

I take no offense at what others have posted here. I am disappointed that once again many have failed to take the high road and have turned another of my threads into a debate. This isn't a forum for debate. IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE A SUPPORT FORUM IN SPIRITUAL MATTERS.

Where is the support? Support = help. What help have you been in this thread? Each person needs to examine their own heart, and reread their postings to see what you have personally done. The thread was hijacked, imo.

Some will say I asked for it. Not so. Your opinion. (Your judgment.) Don't you see where you are judging me and my post? All the time condemning me for posting about what you turned around and did to me and my thread? I'm quite disappointed in those of you who hijacked my thread. How can you discuss Scripture when you admit you don't want to and don't want to follow God's Word but your own devices? Why not leave it be, and let those who can be strengthened through it, enjoy it?

I think the verses that follow the original verses are quite apropro here: Matthew 7:3-5 verse 3 <font color="purple"> And why behold the chip that is in the brother's eye, but consider not the beam that is in your own eye? (4) or how will you say to the brother, "Let me pull out the chip out of your eye," when a beam is in your own eye? (5) You hypocrite! First pluck out the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to pluck out the chip out of your brother's eye.</font>

Many here talk that talk, like, in other forums you see posts that share how you're in the same boat as someone, or also struggling with the same problem --- and give support, not condemnation. You find your own inadequacies in a problem and maybe only post a spinning heart, rather than try to advise, because you know you are also struggling in the same area. You are following this maxim in the other forums usually. What about me and the spirituality forum makes you forgetsupport? Or was it that the verses hit home and you acted out in retaliation?

As I said, I posted it for support to those here who are struggling with determination. What you have done to this thread is exactly why others needed this support. You have tried to counter it with backlashing, and very well may have secured your position in this: you will prevent others from posting because of your judgment of them, and their posts.

How sad.

Sky

> As I said, I posted it for support to those here who are struggling with determination.

I see. You didn't post it with the intention to counter (debate with) those who thought that it was not okay to judge?

Because I can accuse you of debating
And you can accuse me of debating
And round and round and round we go never really getting further ahead.

Instead... I choose to give you the benefit of the doubt and to assume that your intention was to offer some support to those who think judging is okay (or those who might be struggling with the fact that they judge). Why? Because its a decent, humane thing to do basically. To assume the best of people rather than the worst.

I really wish... That people could extend that same courtesy back to me. Instead of reading my posts as debating or condemning to try and extract the good that one might be able to see, or to simply ignore them if one really can't find any worth. My stated intention: Was to say that I understand how people who take judging to be okay gain support for their view from the bible. That I also understand how people who take judging to be not okay gain support for their view from the bible. There are lots of other reasons why judging may or may not be okay in different circumstances (e.g., one might be trying to maintain a friendship etc etc). I really wish that people could give me the benefit of the doubt instead of clinging to the assumption that my sole purpose in posting here is to hijack threads and undermine peoples faith.

Because I could judge you similarly and round and round we would go.

Peace.

((((((((((((Sky)))))))))))))) I have been going through an extremely difficult time lately and want to thank you for being committed here sharing encouragement and wisdom..there are times when this forum is the only place I have to go for a touch of encouragement, a fragment of hope.. .I am sorry that this thread has gone the way it has...I come here for support, especially when I am struggling...I judge no one, and found your original post to share how we are not to judge..a just balance is in the hand of the Lord...thank you for being here and sharing words of life...there is one thing that I know, no one can take our testimony from us, it is the reality of our lives, though there are ones who cannot see it...and that is ok, because it does not change the truth, nor weaken the life and love that has been placed into our hearts...thank you for being here...

Thanks climbingkit, tt's good to know that others are also sharing in the things I'm posting. I think I post like others here, when it affects me, hits home for me, or concerns me. When others PM me with issues or problems I always consider a new thread. I especially try to find answers for others when it turns out they are asking the same questions.



I guess it is all a matter of perspective. We cannot expect someone who is deep in a well to always find the high view.

TC

Sky

I agree with you _sky. However just having this forum makes it an easy target for people who have issues with religion. I too think it is bad form, and rude to put someone else's beliefs down just because we can.

I took the liberty of copying these meaning from Webster since some readers insist on splitting hairs. Sky has given us the meanings of these words from the ancient texts. They seem to be in agreement for today, also.

We all face situations in our everyday life where we are forced to discern what is good or bad, right and wrong, what is good for us and what is not. From those discernments, we make our judgements and can make our everyday decisions - from A-Z - to the point of what air we breath to financial investments. Do we stay in a room full of smoke or do we walk out, do we eat meat or not, buy a new or used car; what stocks do we buy or do we take a chance on commodities?

Many people here feel judged AND condemned! To judge is one thing, but to condemn is another. I see absolutely NO CONDEMNATION in anything Sky has posted. It's the opposition that is CONDEMNING Sky for posting her beliefs.

If Sky's postings, or mine for that matter, make anyone uncomfortable, then why even read?? Why can't each one of us make a judgement for ourselves of what is good for us or what is not and leave alone what we disern to be not good?

I know for a fact that Sky welcomes questions. She is more than willing to explain what she believes and why and can back up her beliefs with knowledge. If a clarification is what you need or want, then ask for it! But why bring in anger, arguments and discention to something that serves as support and hope for others?

Main Entry: dis·cern
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French discerner, from Latin discernere to separate, distinguish between, from dis- apart + cernere to sift

transitive senses
1 a : to detect with the eyes b : to detect with senses other than vision
2 : to recognize or identify as separate and distinct : DISCRIMINATE
3 : to come to know or recognize mentally
intransitive senses : to see or understand the difference

Main Entry: 1judge
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English juggen, from Old French jugier, from Latin judicare, from judic-, judex judge, from jus right, law + dicere to decide, say

1 : to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises
2 : to sit in judgment on : TRY
3 : to determine or pronounce after inquiry and deliberation
4 : GOVERN , RULE -- used of a Hebrew tribal leader
5 : to form an estimate or evaluation of ; especially : to form a negative opinion about <shouldn't judge him because of his accent>
6 : to hold as an opinion : GUESS , THINK <I judge she knew what she was doing>
intransitive senses
1 : to form an opinion
2 : to decide as a judge

Peace to all!

Thanks psisci for your support and understanding.

I've realized something, that I hadn't been able to put my finger on until this morning. There is a cultural gap. Not just a generational gap, but a true cultural gap in play here. How that is manifesting itself on THIS thread is this: what I believe about truth is not what you believe about truth. (I use the word "you" to identify those who believe the cultural beliefs as opposed to the longstanding beliefs of previous generations (mine.)

I believe in absolute truth.

The new culture believes there is no absolute truth. It says that truth is personal, and subjective. It also says that it's variable, depending upon the situation and circumstance. What was true for you yesterday may not be true for you today. It believes that truth is created and that what's true for me might not be true for you. For this way of thinking, all truth is equal. You say something is true because you believe it (believing it, for you, makes it true for you.) You say truth is circumstantial.

The truth I know isn't created, it's discovered. I can quote Scripture, but it won't do you any good, because you don't find that Scripture is true for you. You see, you say it's truth because you believe it. I believe it because it's truth. You believe something is true because you have faith (that it is I have faith because it is true. In your beliefs, faith doesn't respond to truth, it creates it!

It used to be that John 3:16 was the most quoted Scripture by young people, in my generation. Now, Matt 7:1 is the most quoted among the teens of today. And it's taken totally out of context by doing so. When only Matthew 7:1 is quoted as a response to someone who has discerned something, it isn't being used correctly, fully. Think about this later.

When someone holds to this other cultural belief about truth, it eliminates their ability to discern difference between Mother Theresa and Ted Bundy, because, each of their own truths were correct and truth for them! When you take this view of truth, you have lost your ability to discern between Hitler and Billy Graham... because all people's truth is equal. Your truth is personal, and variable. Something might be true for you today and not tomorrow.

The truth of my generation is founded in God and His Word. HIS truth is absolute. HE is the way, the TRUTH, and the life. It isn't true because I believe it, it's true because it's God's truth. The truth I know is beyond myself, it's beyond all of us. Your absolute relativism doesn't say that. I have a SOURCE of truth and it is God. Truth is discovered, this is a basic part of hermaneutics. My Source of truth doesn't change: God says, "I am the Lord your God, I change not." (Sorry, had to put some Scripture in.) The source of truth is God, and that is where I find morals and ethics too.

I guess it would be arrogant of me to suggest that God enlightened me to the gap, but that is the truth. I don't believe in coincidences. I'd tell you the story if I thought you'd believe me. I believe He showed me this because I went looking for His truth on this, wondering why so few couldn't understand what I was trying to say. At least now we all know that we work from different bases. Bases that will always be separate.

I can see that on a support site it is important, well anywhere, to not demand "your" truth or God's truth upon anyone. I have always tried to take posts at face value, and lead to a comforting spot. This forum though is for encouragment where the other areas just don't touch. I hope you fully understand what I mean by that. It's easy on such a site to make all things equal...and in many ways that works great. It's when it doesn't work for someone, and they seek more, that the keys to their belief system might need to be reviewed by them. If beliefs are ever-changing, how can you have stability??? I don't know how that's possible.

Let me caution young teen Christians that this new cultural acceptance of an ever-changing truth is not Scriptural. You have your own choice, but remember this for the future, at least?

I can see trying to hold both views simultaneously. In matters that are of the world and society, absolute truth, and of personal private matters, the variable truth, or vice versa. I doubt it will give any comfort that way. There is no foundation to the belief. (I could insert another few verses about the house built on sand...)

"There is a way that seemeth right unto man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death."

Because I know this to be true doesn't make it true, it isn't my beliefs that are creating this truth, as you might think (knowing how you think of truth now)... but it's true because it's Biblically based, God's Word is the ultimate truth for mankind. (And, yes, I do believe it guides us for decisions involving every aspect of our lives, if we seek to discover His (the) truth.) If I appear arrogant, forgive me. Perhaps it's not me, but God's Word that I quote, which is totally true,and the rising up of the spirit within you, that you are ascribing to me instead, that is causing some of the problem.

Thanks Septie!

are ppl judging the poster or the post?
if Sky didn't post would ppl complain
it's almost like she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't

Wow (((nothemama8))) those are some strong words coming from you ( and I agree, agree, agree!!!) THANKS! (((hugs)))

but now... let's move on and let the others catch up later?

Nobody's view is invalid.

But we are all entitled to have our own view.

I started reading this thread and it just frustrated me.

Some intelligent discussion is good but I do not believe I have ever come across a religion-based discussion that doesn't deteriorate into some form of low blows.

Me? As long as no one tries to bash me over the head with a Bible to make me convert to their beliefs ... I respect their views.

Hmmm I am off topic I guess but I felt like saying that :>

Hmmm I think it's important to realize that everyone begins at the same place, and travels on a path... are we all on the same path? No.. not all... but similar paths. No one is better than another, just as a different place on their path. Perhaps to investigate what is causing you to feel "low blows" might help you to not become frustrated in the future, I don't know. For me, intelligent discussion and tough calls in good judgment are not mutually exclusive.

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psisci said:
I too think it is bad form, and rude to put someone else's beliefs down just because we can.

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I agree with the above though with this caveat: Voicing a contrasting view or belief does not necessarily equal putting someone or someone's beliefs down--even if someone feels put down by reading that contrasting view or belief. Feeling put down does not necessarily equal being put down.

gg

No, _Sky, I was just meaning that in my experience religious debate often does not maintain civility.

It was just a general comment - people understandably get very defensive about their position, it's a sensitive topic.

It's way more interesting when things stay on track and people are nice about their view

No comment on / at you or anyone in particular - it was really just an observation in general and from past experience

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_Sky said:
When you take this view of truth, you have lost your ability to discern between Hitler and Billy Graham...

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Wow, Godwin's Law is really true!

gg