To judge or not to judge?

To Judge or Not to Judge (adapted from Pensees http://pspruett.blogspot.com/2005/12...-to-judge.html)
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"The biblical verse, "judge not, lest ye be judged" (Matthew 7:1), seems to be the most quoted verse these days, perhaps mostly by non-Christians (even the secular world has its "memory verses"). Usually it is thrown at Christians in response to the doctrine of the exclusivity of Christ in salvation, which implies other paths are wrong, or in relation to moral issues. But does this verse suggest that we should judge nothing at all? I think we may understand on both intuitive grounds and Scriptural grounds that the answer is "no".

No one (but a psychopath?) would agree that we shouldn't judge a murderer. It wouldn't make sense if this verse were prescribing a global ban on judging.

Since the claim is based on an appeal to Scripture to begin with, it is only reasonable that we look deeper at Scripture to sort out the issue. Note these sample passages:<font color="purple">

"Solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." — Hebrews 5:14

"Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction." — 2 Timothy 4:3

"[hold] fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict." — Titus 1:9

"But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil." — 1 Thessalonians 5:21

"Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him." — Luke 17:3
And I could go on and on, in fact, I think I will: I Co 2:15; 6:2-3, Mat 23, Acts 13:10, Lev 19:15-17, Ez 22:2 & 23:36, Is 58:1. All these verses certainly make it clear that we should be discerning about good and evil and about proper theology, even being so bold as to confront those who are in error. So, this leaves us with a question: What is it that we should NOT judge? Here are some passages that may give us some clues:

"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things." — Romans 2:1

"Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment." — John 7:24

"For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges." — 1 Corinthians 5:12-13<font color="teal">[/b]
What I see here is that we should not judge hypocritically and ignorantly. Also, there is some sense in which we should avoid judging those outside the church (a point I won't explore here), but it at least first requires us to identify who is indeed "outside" before we can commend them to God, and that is a form of judging.

In any case, the most important thing we can do is to look at Matthew 7:1 in its proper context. Note verses 2 through 5:<font color="purple">

"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

This seems to be saying that the admonition to "judge not" is in the context of hypocrisy. A sample application of this might be someone judging a homosexual for their sexual sin when all the while being engaged in an adulterous relationship. Note, though, that the final conclusion is that if you are able to clean up your own act, you might then be qualified to clearly "see" another's sin and perhaps help them to deal with it.<font color="teal">

I see no blanket prohibition on judging in Matthew 7, nor even does there appear to be a categorical prohibition here. It is simply referring to the conditions and prerequisites for a certain kind of judgment. Christians should not allow others to use this passage to bully them into surrendering their discernment and to consider all beliefs and practices of equal value."
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In fact, when we post here at PC ... are we not judging, discerning? Yes, of course we are. And if we are polite and caring, we want to be replied to (judged) to be deserving of the same in return. Any time I put 'just my pov' or "IMO" ..well, that's a form of judging... my opinion. And this is, along with Pensees and many other Christian's POV.

isn't it great how you can fairly much find SOME passage or other in the bible that supports precisely what you think in the first place.

:-)

Wouldn't reframing that say that I think the way I do because of my intense study of Scripture? :-)

no, i don't think it would.

see...

if one can find evidence in the bible to support ones belief that p (one is allowed to judge)

and one can find evidence in the bible to support ones belief that not p (one is not allowed to judge)

then it would seem to me that the bible doesn't tell you whether it is okay or not.

instead of the bible showing someone that either p or not p the bible kind of says both so its really of no help with respect to us deciding whether it is okay to judge or not.

so...

in practice...

people have an intuition that its ok (or its not ok as the case may be). then, when they are called on to justify their belief they say ''cause the bible tells me so'. trouble is that god seems to be on their opponents side too... so...

i'm thinking that maybe the bible isn't so useful with respect to justifying ones beliefs after all and isn't so useful with respect to telling you what you should do after all...

alex said:
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isn't it great how you can fairly much find SOME passage or other in the bible that supports precisely what you think in the first place.

:-)

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> and also:

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no, i don't think it would.

see...

if one can find evidence in the bible to support ones belief that p (one is allowed to judge)

and one can find evidence in the bible to support ones belief that not p (one is not allowed to judge)

then it would seem to me that the bible doesn't tell you whether it is okay or not.

instead of the bible showing someone that either p or not p the bible kind of says both so its really of no help with respect to us deciding whether it is okay to judge or not.

so...

in practice...

people have an intuition that its ok (or its not ok as the case may be). then, when they are called on to justify their belief they say ''cause the bible tells me so'. trouble is that god seems to be on their opponents side too... so...

i'm thinking that maybe the bible isn't so useful with respect to justifying ones beliefs after all and isn't so useful with respect to telling you what you should do after all...

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Did you forget, alex, that we are in the spirituality forum? Since you don't believe this way, I think posting argumentatively is not allowed. I purposely didn't post this in another's thread, but made one to stand alone. It is meant as an encouragement to Christians to be strong in apologetics.

nope, i remember that we are in the spirituality forum.

i'm sorry you judge my post to be argumentative. basicallly, you asked a question (though in hindsight maybe it was meant to be rhetorical) and so i answered to the best of my ability.

> It is meant as an encouragement to Christians to be strong in apologetics

hmm. i guess i meant to encourage christians to think about OTHER reasons (aside from the bible) why they might think that judging is or is not okay (and it was a kind of a compliment to the case of the person staying with the abusive partner and how you maintain the relationship).

not intending to argue.

have a happy thread.

:-)

Sky's first post was very clear to me. Christians use the Bible and their own Christian experiences to "set straight" other Christians. We have the rules in from of us and if we see a Brother or a Sister going astray, we are told to "set them straight."

Then there's discernment. For me, it's based on my knowledge of what the Bible says and mistakes I've made in the past because I didn't follow the Bible's instructions.

As for "judging" others, by your argumentative posting and beliefs that have shown up all over the board, I know or "judge" you to NOT be a Christian. I would "discern" for myself that if I had a spiritual question I would certainly not be asking you for the answer.

That doesn't mean that I don't find you intelligent in some areas, maybe many. I do. It's the way you phrase your language that puts me off. I "judge" for myself that I wouldn't count you among my close friends.

I hope you don't "judge" this as meaness on my part. I don't mean it that way. It's simply "constructive critizism." When someone gives me some constructive critizism, it always stings, but I take the time to think about it before I REACT. If I find even just a bit of truth in what they say, then I take it to heart and work to smooth out the edges, at least, if not change altogether.

I hope you take this in the spirit in which it was intended.

Sky is also right in her intentions. She posted in order to affirm the faith of those who believe in what the Bible says. It also serves to encourage us in our faith and to become better Christians. Sky wasn't looking for an argument of saying that everybody that reads her posts HAS to agree with her. If you don't agree with her help for Christians, you don't need to argue about it. Just let it be.

i find your post very very weird indeed.

all i meant to say was that so long as people are sayin 'amen brother' you can cite the bible to justify your beliefs all you like.

if you meet someone (a christian who goes to the same church as you even) who believes the opposite and cites the bible to justify their beliefs then you are just going to be at loggerheads is all.

i was suggesting that due to this... it might help to appeal to OTHER (ie non biblical) reasons to support your beliefs. it would help you with talking to non believers and it would help you with talking to believers who focus on different biblical passages.

i'm not sure what you mean by the 'way i phrase things'. i surely hear you accusing me of judging others and accusing me of being argumentative.

even when i offer some support for theological beliefs you jump all over me.

lol.

whatever.

enjoy hanging out with people just like you

:-)

I don't agree with Pensees idea of "judge" as in "No one (but a psychopath?) would agree that we shouldn't judge a murderer." I think as Alexandra says, there are other non-Christian works that would bear this out, Les Misérables and the stealing of a loaf of bread when one is starving make true judging a loaded question. It's never my place to judge a murderer, that's God's "problem" because only He can know the circumstances wholly. I don't know their circumstances and so don't want to be around a murderer as I find the situation volatile and frightening but that's just me.

I want to use "judge" to apply only to what I think is good for myself. I can judge whether this person is a good one for me to be friends with but not, one should note, whether that person is a good friend! I can't judge another person's characteristics and traits except as they apply to my life and circumstances and what I want or believe I need.

Just as I don't believe I can say, "That person is going to Hell" since I'm not in charge of Hell :-) or that person the only way I can "influence" that person is with my own life and ideas, expressed as what I believe for myself. I can't, for sure, even say they'd work for another person as God may have another "route" for that person and telling another person I have The Answer when they haven't first asked me The Question is, for me, an arrogant assumption/judging of the other person and their needs.

You, also, Perna have stated you are not a Christian. </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Re: Anyone have a faith aside from judaism / christianity? Sanctuary for Spiritual Support Perna 12/14/06 11:08 am
I have my own spiritual beliefs rather than a named religion or other known belief system. Kind of hard to quote from myself though :-) versus the Bible/Koran, other known religious/spiritual works which other people would recognize.


</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> There are also other posts, from here in the SF, where you show obvious judging of others.

Why are either of you bothering about Christian principles? This is not a site for arguments, but for support. No, I don't expect everyone to know what we speak of here in this thread, for it's a Christian principle. One that, because of worldly views impressed upon them, often becomes muddled in their belief system.

Many Christians here are afraid of "judging" another, or more specifically, what another posts here. They are even more afraid of those who purport a certain diction that goes against what they believe, to the extent they are afraid to just post what they do believe - anywhere on the site. I don't think this is right. Everyone here should be allowed to post, in accordance with the guidelines, without fear of upbraiding.

Maybe this is just my POV, but I thought DocJohn was clear about invading each other's threads when they refer to personal beliefs.

I am a Christian, "Anabaptist" at that. . . and then some :-)

"Many Christians here are afraid of "judging" another, or more specifically, what another posts here. They are even more afraid of those who purport a certain diction that goes against what they believe, to the extent they are afraid to just post what they do believe - anywhere on the site. I don't think this is right. Everyone here should be allowed to post, in accordance with the guidelines, without fear of upbraiding."

I agree with you with the caveat that many of all beliefs here are afraid to give their opinion/beliefs.

it doesn't matter who you are , what belief you are, or what you are if you judge another you open yourself up to being judged
why can't we all enjoy each other and live and let live
I myself enjoy these threads lets not debate in this forum

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they are afraid to just post what they do believe - anywhere on the site.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> - _Sky

This statement isn't just about posting about their faith or beliefs. People are afraid to post "anywhere on the site" because they are so afraid of being judged. This is a fact! You can read about it over and over all over the board.

I'm almost certain that Sky posted about judging to remind us Christians that it's not up to us to make any final judgement on anyone.

Perna, I agree with you that some judgements are completely personal - "what's good for me."

got a question, when someone judges are they judging the person or the statement hmmmmm

Perhaps both?

I view the statement to see if it has "merit." Whether it does or not (to me) will determine whether I reply, or what I reply if I do. I also then try to understand the reason for the person's saying what they said. If they are known to be honest "seekers," then I try to explain my view for understanding. If they are known for "trouble-making", I try to ignore them, but also try to not comment on what they said, but my reasoned-out reason for why they posted in the first place. (Because in my judgment they aren't really seeking, but stirring the pot.) Just my POV on how I "judge."

IMHO, it's up to the higher power to do the judging of ppl at the final judgement and us to hold accountability of our actions here and now
(am I being over religous) don't mean to offend anyone but I like the fact that we can have a nice discussion

Septembermorn, I think this is more clearly evident in chat. There are those who come to chat, who NEED support, but will not post because of that fear of being unduly judged. Many here just cannot tolerate even what is now happening in this thread...contrariness.

I find no problem with ppl posting, creating their own thread. I can, and have, ignored many. I purposely do not go into a thread to counter a belief, as you evidence earlier this week with my finding a report about the leader of the anti-use of animals for research stating he could see good uses for it.
(http://education.guardian.co.uk/busi...958034,00.html) To have done so would not have been supportive, even though my finding was pertinent, I feel. Unless allowed or invited, I try not to counter.

I can allow others to chat about their homosexuality, their affairs of the heart, their financial issues, their lust for their Ts without feeling I need to intrude with what I believe. I can go and give support, or ignore the thread.

What I can't understand is the propensity for some to seemingly thrive upon upsetting or hijacking another's thread.

I judge that to be sheer harassment.

Well, as you know, I don't go into chat hardly anymore. So I can only speak to what I see on the board.

Understood about the animal activism! I had to sit on my hands to not respond or even start my own thread. The Bible says that God gave us dominion over the animals. We have a right to use them as we see fit. It's a fact that animals don't process pain and discomfort like we do, so I see nothing wrong with experimenting with them IF they benefit humankind.

When you mentioned "expedient" RE whether we should eat them or not, I accepted that as what is expedient for YOU personally.

It's the poaching, sport hunting, etc that makes me sick! There is so much waste of beautiful animals! THAT I think is totally unnecessary and brutal... but then, I digress.

There truly is a way of disagreeing with a post or a thread. I believe we all have the right to express our own opinions. It's when people purposely "stir the pot," argue or demean a poster for their beliefs that I don't understand. Why can't they just say "I disagree with your 'quotes' because of these points... " and then list them and back them up with their own experiences. Why attack anyone personally simply because they believe something different and quite possibly have had different life experiences??

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alexandra_k said:
isn't it great how you can fairly much find SOME passage or other in the bible that supports precisely what you think in the first place.

:-)

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We believe what the Bible tells us because we have studied and PROVEN that it is right, not the other way around such as secularits that have learned their "memory verses" that they throw around at Christians to judge them rather than exort them.

Alex, you're putting the cart before the horse again.

Well, even in a thread such as this, of quoting scripture, someone who doesn't follow Scripture has no business - in my judgment- posting in such a thread, unless it is for seeking understanding.

Why even go into a thread and state "I disagree with your post" or such? I thought the understanding was, if the thread was open to other's comments, actually asking for opinions, then the method was to go into the thread and post say, what "I" believe or think, not anything against another post's comments, or beliefs. That type of judgment isn't one that's allowed, I think. I can hold my own judgments, but cannot display them against another. If I can agree with the inquisitor - the originator of the thread- and give support, then I do so. But just because I disagree doesn't give me the right to post that disagreement. Good judgment must prevail.

Anyone who has been here since the forum opened KNOWS that I am a devout Christian, and that my verses and comments here, like this, are for Christians. I don't "care" what others think, this isn't for them, this is to encourage the saints... my fellow believers. In my judgment, no one else can possibly garner the benefit of knowing what the Bible says to the extent another Christian can. They can assist non-believers, surely, but only to the extent the reader allows.

Yes, the use of animals is a judgment call, I agree. We all have our purpose here on earth, all the spirits within the living creatures of creation, imo.

We, as humans, are constantly judging. It is the purpose of this thread to say, yes, judging has God's blessings upon it. How you judge, and what you do with the results is up to you. Yes, Scripture does say that how you judge another, well, that you best be prepared to be judged in the same vein. I challenge that assessment. I need that, to put me or to keep me in the perfect will of God. Where that judgment puts others is none of my concern. TC!

Good day folks. Interesting thread you have here Sky. I was blessed by the scriptures you shared. The Bible is a wonderful teacher. I will take the risk of chiming in on this discussion because I believe it is everyone's intention to want to grow and learn from one another. That is my intention.

What I would like to contribute is to consider the role of judging, passing judgment and declaring a consequence of any particular judgment found. In both the secular and non-secular world there are people appointed to the role of judge. S/he is trained and if learned then s/he is ordained for the role. That suggests it requires intense knowledge and skill to carry the responsibility of judging the actions of another. They are not free to judge according to their opinion but they are governed by laws. Laws made by God or laws made by people -- 'inspired' by God's Laws. Either way the judge is confined to law and can only offer judgments that are supported by law.

Non-ordained laypersons will, can and do offer opinions and sometimes they are loosely referred to as judgments but without any legal authority they can not impose a consequence of judgment. Therefore they have no effect other than to express a point of view.... share an opinion.

Like that of a lawyer who argues an opinion before a judge. The lawyer can not impose a consequence based on their opinion. Rather they argue their opinion with one who holds an opposing view before a judge. They argue within the law. Referencing the law. Testing the law. Siting examples of previous applications of the law. Or consider a police officer who arrests a person for violating the law. They cannot impose a punishment for what they witnessed or learned of a violation of a law. Rather they can only present the offender to a judge. They are bound by the law to acting according to the law and to present offenders to one who has greater authority.

When we look at the Bible which includes God's Laws as well as examples of God's Laws being applied to our world, the world He created for us then we have to do so understanding our own limited authorities. As Christian we have been given specific tasks and responsibilities. Some greater responsibility than others. We have all been instructed to adhere to the laws of the land. We have all been instructed to adhere to the ten commandments which some might say are basically a summary of all the laws sited throughout the Bible.

Some of us who study long and work hard may attain specific knowledge that qualifies us to be ordained as priests, ministers, pastors etc. We are tasked to lead and to teach and to even judge the actions of our followers within the context of the role and within the authority of the law that governs that role.

Being a parent may be the only role that has 'judgment authority' without training and ordination. As parents we have authority to impose judgment upon our children. We are bound by the laws of the land and if religious, then we are bound by the laws of our faith. Within those laws we as parent can pass judgment because we have the parental authority to impose a consequence. It is still bound by law but it requires no training to gain the authority. Is it any wonder it is also the most volatile and easily abused role in our civilized structures? But I digress.

My point in all of this is to remind us all that judgment is only judgment if it includes a consequence. Otherwise it is an opinion. Only one appointed to judge can judge with authority. The rest of the folks are confined to offering opinions, stating arguments based on interpretations of laws and presenting those arguments before a judge if they wish judgment to be found.

My second point is to remember that the Bible was not written in English. To take a word like 'judge' and examine it or apply it one needs to know its meaning from its language of origin. In the case of the Bible that would be Greek. I don't know what the Greek work is that has been interpreted to English as 'judge' but that would be an interesting study for one who might pick it up. The lesson for me is to always be careful about arguing 'word interpretations' and taking any one word too literally and then taking that literal interpretation too far.

In reading the scriptures that Sky offered here for our examination they spoke to me about the authorities that govern our world as determined by God. It reminded me that their are those who have the authority to judge and those that have the responsibility to bring offenders before a 'judge'. To assume we are all anointed/appointed with the authority to pass judgment, to impose consequences would be to insight chaos. We need order and we need to respect authorities in order to function in an orderly manner. We all have a responsibility to uphold the law and to report violations. We don't have the authority to take the law into our own hands and impose judgments.

In the context of the lesson of Sky's sharing of scripture I support the idea that we all have a responsibility to discern and offer opinions. How else can we grow? If my actions are never questioned by another, how will I know when I act inappropriately or unkindly? I would hope that my actions would never require the attention of a 'judge' but I would expect they will always require the attention of another's opinion.

Thank you Sky for the thread. Thank you for encouraging people to speak their minds. I understand the audience you were seeking to reach. It is a gift you have brought to them that seeks to empower and strengthen. Good on you for that. We all need encouragement to be brave when we are feeling shy.

Thanks to everyone else for sharing your opinions. I've learned from all of you equally. From what you say and in how you've each stated your views. It's been enlightening. Emotions have an interesting way of affecting how we hear others. Objectivity is hard to achieve when emotions have been stirred up.

I wish you all a loving and harmonious day. Jesus said, 'Love one another as I have love you." That's a loaded statement with endless interpretations. At the end of the day it tells me to 'treat others as you have them treat you.... with love, kindness, tolerance and acceptance that we might all walk in harmony and......

Peace.....

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SeptemberMorn said:
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alexandra_k said:
isn't it great how you can fairly much find SOME passage or other in the bible that supports precisely what you think in the first place.

:-)

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We believe what the Bible tells us because we have studied and PROVEN that it is right, not the other way around such as secularits that have learned their "memory verses" that they throw around at Christians to judge them rather than exort them.

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I thought I would stick this in here so that everyone knows how the Bible is used between Christians. I mentioned earlier that the Bible and what it says is used to EXHORT.

Main Entry: ex·hort

intransitive senses : to give warnings or advice : urge strongly : make urgent appeals

<font color="teal">Taking the word "judge" from the Greek as found in Matthew 7, it is kpivw, (pronounced krino, kree' no.) prop. to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially by impli. to try, condemn, punish, avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the ) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

The judgment conveys this way: kpiua ( pronounced krima: kree' mah) a decision ( a function or the effect, for or against ("crime",) avenge, condemn, condemnation , +go to law, judgment.

It is definitely a strong "opinion" and means such in it's definition.

I might add, for those interested, that the word for a rule of judging is kpirhpiov, pronounced: kriterion, which is of course our word in English: criterion.

Of course, there are always - I believe- consequences/results from judging.

The main emphasis is not necessarily whether to judge or not, but how to judge, for however you do that, with whatever barometer you use to measure what you are comparing/judging, you will also be judged/measured by that. I think this was quite evident when Jesus said about the woman, to those wishing Him to condemn her: who among you is without sin, cast the first stone. He knew, as they did, that they then would be opening themselves up to stoning as well.

Sky