[velcro003]

Bear with me as this may be lengthy. To preface, I am in therapy (have been for 3 years), but still can't really bring about this topic up. I also know no one can tell me who I am, only I can. I also know that labeling oneself isn't necessary, but I NEED to know in order to move forward with my life.

I am going to be 30 in a few months, and I think hitting that "milestone" is really pushing at me, making me really take stock of my life. I am going to be out of my 20s, where it is normal to be floating about in life, unsure of what you want. I am aware that all this pressure is pressure I put on myself--my family is actually pretty good and leaves me alone about dating someone/having a family. Probably because I evade any questions

So my (somewhat quick) backstory: I had boyfriends, crushes. I never questioned my sexuality, and had one serious boyfriend. We never had sex, and I never really wanted to, but I was happy with him, and very sad when we broke up. College for the first three years will relatively uneventful. I dated briefly, but broke it off with this one guy because he was too intense by always saying "Oh man, I want you" when we were making out. Way to ruin it for me, buddy!

My senior year was tumultous. I was a WRECK with impending graduation. I had zero earthly idea what I was going to do when I graduated and was very unprepared for it. I spent a lot of that year crying when I got drunk. I also met a freshman who had joined the rugby team that year. We clicked instantly and spent most of our free time together--either with the team and team parties, or at the library studying...etc. I thought nothing of it. She was my rock, there supporting me through my ups and downs.

When coming home from bars, we would sometimes hold hands...and still never thought anything of it. I was feeling safe and comforted. She would stay over in my bed when we had parties, because it was much easier to crash there then walk back to her dorm. I snuggled in there too, but we just passed out.

A few months later, she was acting bizarre and wasn't telling me something, but I couldn't get it out of her. Then one night, she came into my room (we had been drinking) and said that she was ready to tell me what was wrong. I was like "Ok, what is it?" and she kissed me. I do know that as she was kissing me I was thinking "uhhhh...what do I do?" so I tried to pretend it was my ex-bf. Once the kiss was over, she was waiting for me to say something. I couldn't. I didn't. So she ran downstairs, and I threw myself in my bed, sobbing. I had no idea what to think or do. I wanted to jump out my window and never come back.

So, the next day we talked and I told her I never thought of her as more than friends, but not to worry she didn't disgust me or anything. We both had plenty of gay friends. So we were rocky for awhile, but eventually grew close again--though she stopped staying over. The summer after I graduated, I completely fell apart. Like crying every day/in work bathroom stalls breakdown. The only bright part of my day was going home and knowing I could talk to her over Instant Messenger (old school!).

Somewhere in there I started to wonder. Did she mean more to me than just a friend? How do I know that? Its not like I had this burning desire to kiss her or anything else. I didn't even let my brain go there. But I did bring it up to her and said I was confused and didnt know what to think. And I basicaly left it at that, telling her that this was the last thing I could deal with in the middle of my summer of hell. I now believe that is where our friendship fell apart. I'm an idiot! By fall came, she was barely speaking to me and I had no idea why. I was absolutely crushed, and spent a long time not understanding what happened.

Now, 7 years later...I still am confused. I dated a friend of mine after college. He's really awesome. Good-looking, really nice, supportive and funny. We had hooked up in the past--always when I was drunk. No sex, but making out/groping (for the lack of a better word)...but I could never get myself to do anything more than kiss and let my hands roam over his body. I never wanted to give him oral sex, nor did I want any. This never was an explicit conversation, because we only hooked up if I was drunk. If I was sober, I'd completely freeze and feel so uncomfortable that I would find a way to get away from it.

Since then, I have dated no one, and have made out with a couple guys at bars...and even that was a few years ago.

What this extremely long story is getting to--is how do you know? I have talked to all my gay friends about this a million times. It has ranged from some people pretty much always knowing since they were little, to friends meeting someone of their same sex (in college) and realizing they liked them more than friends and then dated. It seems no one I've ever spoke with has been in a situation like mine.

Questions I have been asked or have asked myself...and this is the best I can answer them. Seriously if anyone has ANY words of advice/wisdom/questions...please. Anything to help unravel this for me. I am willing to be an open book about this because it is so much easier online than with my T

1. Is this just a maternal need I am trying to fill in?
I wish I could answer this. I have mom issues--didn't get what I needed emotionally from her, yada yada yada. So what I was feeling for my friend because I was so vulnerable (emotionally) and she was there to take care of me? How can you discern between wanting to be cared for maternally and wanting to be cared for in a romantic sense?

2. When I am watching tv/out in the public, who do I find myself checking out?
This is always what gets me. I don't walk around and notice other women. I do find guys to be attractive, I just have little desire to do much more than make out with them. I think women can be pretty and notice that, but is that just like an appreciation like guys who can admit other guys are good-looking?

3. When I have formed attachments to males versus females, who would I rather be around more?
I was telling my friends that there is a certain type of woman who I do instantly find myself connected with and want to be their friend. They are younger (30s), have very friendly and open faces...and generally long brown hair! What I don't know if this is that maternal need thing going on? They told me that they always wanted to be around other women constantly, and not men. When I meet men I find attractive, do I always want to be around them?
That stumped me! In HS I did. I had many crushes and was always trying to get a glimpse of them. Now? I am not so sure. I don't think so.

Ok. I'm going to end this extremely long novella now. If anyone has actually read all of this and wants to give me some feedback, I will love you forever!

[Eliza Jane]

OMG. I could have written so much of this myself. I am struggling with similar issues. I wish I had advice, but I really don't. I brought it up with my therapist, but she hasn't really focused on it at all (which I found strange). I just wanted to let you know that you aren't alone. There are other people out there in similar situations.

Feel free to PM me.

Best,
EJ

[jexa]

velcro, I can definitely see how all this can be incredibly confusing! Feeling the freeze-up around sex -- having emotional connections to both men and women -- and being at that age where you really feel that pressure to answer the question: do I want a family, and a life partner? You are bound to feel some confusion as you sort all this out.

I myself thought I might be bisexual for a while since I get incredibly intense feelings for my female friends at times. Eventually I realized that those feelings were usually just "friend crushes" and not sexual in nature, but it can be quite hard to distinguish. I still sometimes think I wish I could experiment with a woman just to see, but I never end up doing that because I don't want any person to be my experiment. So I've given up on that. I've been with men before and been happy with that, and I want to have my own biological children one day, and I don't really see myself having a lifetime partnership with a woman, so I guess that settles the issue for me, and I feel at peace with my choice. I don't know what questions you need to answer to be able to find your peace.

The freeze-up with sex, though -- this is something you really need to talk with your T about. I KNOW, I KNOW. But this, she can help you with, and I think you DO want this to be resolved, or at least it sounds like it. I don't always have the freeze-up (I usually retreat into my mind and am on auto-pilot during sex but I usually am able to participate from afar), but I have periods where I just CAN'T do it, and there are techniques and there is exposure therapy for that. I know you are highly avoidant of this stuff velcro but for your own peace of mind, perhaps it is worth it to experience the anxiety? It's just.. this would be a great place to go with your EMDR T. I can sense how stuck you feel.. won't it feel great to get unstuck?

Wishing you peace, and courage.

[velcro003]

Thanks Eliza. Fascinating that there ARE other people out there who have similar experiences! I may just PM you.

Jexa--thank you for your response. I KNOW I need to talk about this stuff with my T...but I mean after 3 years in therapy, I can barely tell her when I am upset by something she says, me assuming she hates me.

Interesting where you are coming from, too. See I have no idea if I would be questioning my sexuality if my friend hadn't kissed me. Of course that isn't something I can really debate about, the "what if," because it did happen. I would say that I had a "normal" child/teenhood in terms of friendships and relationships. Is it so abnormal that I didn't really want sex? I didn't think so in High School. I thought nothing of it, in fact it never came up because my boyfriend was from a very Catholic family.

I am reading this book on womans' sexuality, and it is fascinating so far. The author is describing that women generally have a "responsive" sexuality, versus "spontaneous," meaning that we need/want that emotional connection, have to stimulate our thoughts with the intention of having sex--and then in response from our partner do we feel aroused. Unlike many men who are more driven by the physical desire.

That actually makes me feel better in some ways, but also worse. How on earth am i supposed to figure out my sexuality if i have to form that emotional connection? Where does that line get drawn between two women?

[Bridger]

Your experiences with your college girlfriend reminded me of a story we read in french, that we later analyzed based on Freudian psychology.

The story is of a "good girl" who goes to church every day. A man with a silver tongue takes an interest in her. One day he sits behind her in church and whispers things into her ears that are sensual and sexual. The woman is deeply shocked by this, and shocked even more by her own impure reactions to such words. She ends up committing suicide.

Our objective now was to find out why, and we were giving the basics of Freudian psychology to go on for this assignment.

What I saw in it was an unsolvable conflict between two aspects of her persronality. The super ego, which is all about social norms, rules to follow, the ideals, goals, the residence of the better angels. She had a very developed one, and it being 1500 or so she was never before confronted with the counter part of the super ego.

The Id. The part where our basic drives reside. Our animal heritage. Lust and passion, instincts and hungers.

The conflict inside her, having impure thoughts and impure desires, while believing that such things were wrong, it drove her to suicide. That was my analysis of the text, in any case.

My attraction towards more than one gender is something I haven't allowed myself to follow up on for most of my life and I come across issues, still, sometimes. I'm not in a place yet where I feel 100 percent comfortable about living it. There is some kind of fear connected to it that I still haven't fully figured out. The first time he told me he loved me I basically ran for it. Told him this wasn't working out, withdrew, and nearly broke the whole thing off. Lets just be friends was something I actually said. I gave him this Spiel about how friendship is really awesome, and that is a kind of love, and that's enough, right? Right?

I let myself be led by fear. With me it wasn't so much the fear of what other people might say, ... but I can see how that would keep people in the closet. So far inside the closet that they themselves don't realize their desires. I think, with me, it was more a fear of being vulnerable in a way that I wasn't with women. It's complicated, and as I said, I haven't fully realized the root of this fear yet.

If you want to know what your orientation is, well... there are some things I would ask myself if I were you.

What fantasies make me crave being first and foremost among those questions.
Do you have desires? Dreams? Fantasies? Do they involve a certain gender, or certain acts, or settings.

Are they perhaps of a nature you consider to not be socially acceptable?

[Omers]

It's funny, all my life I have dated guys. I had lots of gay and lesbian friends but it never occured to me that being gay or lesbian was an option for me. Like it was some kind of private club just for them.

OK...for any GLBTQ's reading this... what I am about to say sounds like a really bad thing... one of those things that is almost always SO wrong... but for me, in that time, in that space it really was OK.... end of small print...

I went to a large conference with the company I worked for and the first night there is always a meal or snack and cocktails for everone to catch up. I wandered over to my boss who was talking to the head of our largest contract (it was their conference). They looked up, saw me and opened their posture to welcome me into the conversation but never missed a beat of what they were disscussing. After several minutes I discovered it was actually a rather heated conversation about me! My boss insisting that I was strait because he had seen the pictures of the men I dated and had met some. The head of the contract (who is an out gay man) insisting that I was a lesbian! I was too befuddled by the whole thing to have a say!
Seconds later I felt this presence walk into the room like I had never felt before... I turned around and it was the most beautiful woman I had ever seen and I had a strong physiological response (and yes I can have a similar response with men). She came over and joined the conversation!!! The guys filling her in on how they were debating strait or lesbian until she walked in and they saw my physical response.

Come to find out I had been working closely with her over the past year but we had never met. She is an out bisexual woman currently with a man . She and I had an amaizing conversation much like the one you have started here. What was really wonderful was that because of how it all happened and the fact that she had a partner (and I would never mess with that) the conversation could be completely open.
I consider myself to be SO fortunte that my time to "come out" both to others and to myself was such a beautiful and supported time... Just a tad untraditional.

In the end I realized that I am attracted to people. Yes, people with "that" look but also other things. Spiritual people, honest people, real people... I started looking at what I really wanted and deserved in a life partner without addressing the gender issue. Uh... I'm still single... so I identify as bisexual with really high standards!

I am 33 and have a son that I adopted because I found the right kid before I found the right partner (always planned on adopting... too chicken about that whole prego and delivery thing!).
And, lets think about it... how much time do couples really spend engaged in intimate activity compaired to living their life? Find someone you are passionate about spending your life with and the gender thing will work itself out. Set the bar high and see who can sail over it!

So... now I haven't given you the answers you were looking for and may have complicated thing more by throwing the whole Bi thing in there. Just make sure that they deserve you, you are worth it.

[velcro003]

Thanks guys!!

Each and every poster is helpful.

Bridger:
Do you have desires? Dreams? Fantasies? Do they involve a certain gender, or certain acts, or settings.
This is like one of the very first questions my T asked me in the very brief time we discussed this. I really don't. This is when I asked my T if I was asexual. She said she didn't think so, but that you can just shut down the sexual part of you completely, and that is what she thinks I did. As far as dreams (like sleeping dreams), I have dreamt of erotic things with the male and female sex--though there have been few of them. Fantasies? I don't have those! Though in being completely honest, I do read lesbian erotica. What does that mean?

[Bridger]

I have no idea

But the concept of shutting down ones sexuality is interesting to me. I never heard of that before. It's such a powerful drive, after all. I am by no means an expert. By no means at all, but I'd be interested if there could be a link to hormonal levels. I don't know what hormones are linked to sex drives for women, but I used to have a male friend who did steroids in his youth and his testosterone factories shrunk to the size of raisins, so he had to inject himself to keep his levels level. And when he did and his levels peaked he became a sex machine, or so he claimed.

[Omers]

outside of the occasional rush of lust my drive is zilch-1... just really have never had a need for it. Heck the only reason I am not still a vergin at 33 was because I was curious, he was safe and he DID have a drive. I got bored...not sure who that says more about.

[weird&stylish]

It could be that you are asexual, if sex isn't something you desire or think about. Asexuality is not all that uncommon. I don't have info for you on asexuality but if you google it you will find lots of info.

[michele#3]

First off, plenty of people have or do feel the way you do. Secondly, this might help answer the question: Do you imagine yourself living with a woman for the rest of your life. If you answer yes to that question you more than likely not you're a lesbian or bisexual. I hope this helps at least a little bit. Oh, and before I forget, have you told your therapist that you need to talk about this? If they aren't or don't seem comfortable maybe you need to think about seeing another therapist.

[velcro003]

Weird: i went hrough a period where i did think i was asexual, but i am not. I do have desire ocasionally!

Michele: what do you mean plenty of people have felt or do feel like i do? I feel SO abnormal, like hiw can i go so long not knowing? All of my friends have always known on some level; some since they were kids, and some once they fell for another woman, realized they were missing something, they just didnt know what. Its been so long since i have been in any kind of relationship or felt any sort of close intimacy with another person that i dont have a clue.

My T probably has been chomping at the bit for me to really talk about this stuff with her, its me who is holding back. She has tried turning the conversation into relationship issues, and i always change the subject. She is gay, so i am not worried about her being uncomfortable.

The thing is with all of this is that i just circle round and round over the same points in my head, and never draw any conclusions. Like:

1: when i was in between 7th and 8th grade, me and my best friend messed around. I honestly do not remember much about it, just that we would lay next to each other under a blanket and explore. But my friend is straight, married and has a kid. I know she never thought much of it. Kids experiment, right? Plus i dont remember if that was pkeasurable to me or not.

2: i think guys are attractive. I have no problems making out with them, and genuinely cared for my boyfriends in HS, and enjoyed the making out/feeling each other that did go on.

3: BUT- why is it i never wanted to have sex? In HS, i had a few bf's, but only one very serious one-and he was very religious, so there was no sex. Didnt think twice about it. But really, the penis sort of frightens me! I dont think i want anything to do with it-but is that because i prefer women, or because, like everything else in my lfe, i am afraid of the unknown- and the fear has only increased as the years go on.

4: female sex doesnt necessarily make me excited either. But my one friend says she still finds guys attractive, and when she was questioning, lesbian sex didnt seem so hot either.

I could go on, but i can see both sides of everything and draw no conclusion! It probably is confused even more so by the fact that when i was 23 my parents got divorced, an my mom announced she was gay. Talk about a shock of a lifetime!!!! I saw what she went through (sort of-i live 9 hrs away), and it wasnt fun. More importantly, we have our share of issues.

Sigh. Sorry for the ramble, but i just cant bring this all up in therapy right now.

[velcro003]

Oh, an Michele- to answer your question, i cant imagine my future, which is part of the problem! I never could. Whenever i think about my life in the future, my mind is conspiciously blank. Literally. I have been living with my college roommate in an apartment for over 6 years now, and have been relatively content. But so has she- and she is straight and is sure of it.

[sugahorse1]

This is me exactly.
I first experimented when I had just turned 23, the only woman I've been with. Now I am with my boyfriend and it's a conscious decision that this is what I want - for life.
Sometimes I get an intense craving for a woman in my life.
I too don't stare at women in the street and get turned on. It's the person/character that they are that attracts me to them. Their compassion, love, understanding...
But I've decided it's not what I'm going to have for life, and as I cannot have both and be in a committed relationship, I've made the decision I have.

I mentioned my predicament to my T right in the beginning, but we haven't spent much time on the topic

[michele#3]

Sounds like you're fairly young and couldn't imagine a long term relationship. I know when I was your age I couldn't imagine being with someone for an extended period of time. It could be your intimacy isssues too that affect this. So, I wouldn't worry too much about this. Also, sometimes it takes people a while to sort through these feelings and realize what there sexual orientation is. I know it took time for me. I hope I've been of some help.

Originally Posted by Bridger

The Id. The part where our basic drives reside. Our animal heritage. Lust and passion, instincts and hungers.

My lust, passion and hungers run wildly through my veins. I'm not sexually confused - I'm filled with desire.

I do control it but damn it's painful.

[velcro003]

I mean i guess i am sort of young, but just about to turn 30 doesnt seem that young. I do agree that intimacy issues definitely play a big part in this confusion. I know it can take awhile to try and sort this out, but ive been trying to figure this out on and off for 6 years.

[with or without you]

velcro, I understand what you're going through. I am also a 29 year-old woman, but have never been intimate with anyone because of many issues I am still trying to sort out...mostly social phobia, but also things that happened in my childhood and adolescence that may have contributed to where I'm at right now. (FYI - I was never abused). I have asked myself over and over who I am mostly sexually attracted to, men or women, and this is why...I was confused for a while because I have always found both attractive men and attractive women to be hot, and I enjoy watching love scenes of all kinds of relationships - straight, gay, and lesbian...all arousing. However, I feel that I only really want to be physical with a man. I can't see myself kissing or having a sexual relationship with a woman. I have also asked myself what I would do if a woman made an advance towards me. I have to say I would refuse it, and it's not because of the fear of discovering myself to be homosexual...I just would not like it, it would not feel right to me. My fantasies are of me living with and having a sexual relationship with a man, exploring his body and him exploring mine. It is annoying being turned on by women though, because it is unwanted. I can't help it, though....I guess all people are beautiful to me! LOL

You can PM me if you ever want to talk.

[velcro003]

Hmmm, interesting to hear it from your side, With. (is this a reference to U2?) I, too would think I wouldn't be able to do anything if another woman made a pass at me, but how likely is that to happen? I don't go to gay bars, and I don't "look" gay (stereotypically), but I also don't really fantasize about anything. Sigh.

[with or without you]

Yes, it is a U2 reference.

I know what you mean about the "likelihood" of being hit on by a woman. I used to not fantasize either, I think it's because my depression has lifted somewhat in the past 6 months...so I'm making up for lost time. LOL.

Are you sure you have never fantasized, or do you feel so guilty about it that you've made yourself forget?

[velcro003]

I don't know. I do know that if I ever did, it was a LONG LONG time ago. When I was with my boyfriend in HS, I could sorta see us married every once in awhile, but knew that our families were too different.

[with or without you]

I gotcha.