[Gwydion]

Warning: Triggers (male/male incest)

It took several years of psychotherapy before I revealed this abuse to my therapist, and that was almost 10 years ago now. Sometimes I think I've made my peace with it, and sometimes I think I'm still suffering from being abused. Most often, though, I have a hard time seeing it as 'abuse'. I could sure use some thoughts and insights from people who've been where I've been, or at least in somewhat similar situations....ok, here goes everything.....

I'm an American male in my mid-40's, and grew up with both parents and one brother, 4 1/2 years older than me. At some point when I THINK I was around 9-11, my older brother initiated me into gratifying him sexually. I don't remember very much of the the early times, just that he was sexually mature and I wasn't yet. While I don't have a lot of memories, I don't recall ever being 'forced', 'coerced', 'threatened', or even physically harmed (he never tried to penetrate me). While it was definately the horny teen using his younger brother to help him get sexual relief/satisfaction, I do remember that he always hugged me afterwards and would often try to pleasure me as well. Eventually, I assume as I began to mature, I realized that what he was doing to me felt really good, and I felt good knowing that he was getting good feeling from what he wanted me to do to him.

Still with me? Kind of a long story - thanks for persevering!

Time went on and by the time I was 13 or 14, not only was I not minding doing what he wanted me to do, and enjoying what he was doing to me, but I began to sometimes be the one to seek him out at night and try to initiate our activities. I also accepted that my sexual interests were very clearly bisexual and that played out in my pattern of relationships with girl and boy friends.

Eventually, my older brother went off to the college dorms but was close enough that he came home for ocassional weekends and summers. By then, if it wasn't that we were brothers, we were engaging in fairly 'normal' homosexual sessions that would be nothing special if written up in cheap literary porn - I was almost an adult and he was a legal adult, I sought him out as often as he sought out me. we were both free to say 'no, not tonight thanks'. There was no coercion, no force, no pain. There was also a never-ever stated but very clearly understood pact between us to never say anything about it to our parents or friends and, in fact never talk about 'IT' at all, even to each other, even just before, during or after THE ACT itself. The games eventually stopped as first he, then I became wrapped up in other things, finishing school, jobs to pay for apartments, serious hetero relationships, marriage, and kids of our own.

Flash forward - When I first sought out therapy (with my first major depressive episode almost 14 years ago), I knew that one of the main issues I needed to deal with was my history with my brother, although it took a couple of years of work before I was willing to risk uncovering that to my therapist. She, the therapist, was excellent at being open-minded, impartial, and even admitted that she believed that there could exist certain individual incest situations that weren't automatically bad/wrong/evil, etc. At the same time, she worked very hard to get me to realize, accept, and label my brother as an abuser and his actions in initiating me into sex as abuse. Even though I knew that that history was a large part of what drove me to depression in the first place, I had a very difficult time agreeing that we were talking about what he and I did as abuse from an abuser. To be brutally honest, I still feel that it wasn't abuse and automatically wrong at least 50% of the time I think of the story of my brother and me.

So now I spend most of the time thinking of my past history as certainly a 'non-traditional' but physically enjoyable introduction to recreational sex.......and then a couple years ago I attended a men's retreat where, in the safe and supportive atmosphere that was created by amazing professionals and a group of truly wonderful men, I touched a rage inside of me that had me outside with a plastic baseball bat, attacking the pile of firewood and seeing each chunk of wood I assaulted as my brothers genitals, until I physically could no longer lift the lightweight bat, and screaming at 'him' in pain so that I was voiceless for several days aftewards.

So where am I now? Other than having a tendency to be very long-winded when describing things(!) I'm really confused and wonder if I should be trying to keep working on this in therapy (I've never had any luck bringing back any more memories of the early times), or just chalk it up to something I've done some inconclusive processing of, and dropping it.

Thoughts?

Kind regards,
Gwydion

welcome to the forum. You seem to have processed a great deal of what happened to you. I think whether we are physically hurt or enjoy it at all, being introduced to sex at an early age is traumatic. It certainly sounds like it strongly influenced you to regard sexually pleasuring your brother as a favor, and you didnt get a choice in who your first sexual experience was, which is also unfair. In all those ways it seems clearly traumatic and abusive to me. I'm sorry for that. I'm very sorry it created so mcuh confusion in your life.

[DePressMe]

Gwydion, I think sexual abuse between siblings is difficult...to say the least. I don't really have any answers for you. Tonight has been a tough night for me and dealing with my own abuse. I am writing because I want you to know I read your post, I care about you and you are not alone in your struggles. I wish I had some answers...please hang in there.

One more thing. Sometimes it is not about reclaiming more memories, but it is how we deal with the memories we already have...

[Rhapsody]

As a victim of sexual abuse as a child by related and non-related men I can tell you that it is worth every bit of extra pain it takes to heal the wounds that are left inside of you....... you will be better off to your self and to the ones you love if you still seek to conquer the haunts of your past sexual abuse.

[Kiya]

you have a lot of courage.... ((((safe hugs if you want them))))

[Gwydion]

Thank you all for your support so far! It helps to hear the viewpoints from others, as varied as they may be. I feel supported here, where I know I'm unlikely to be attacked as a 'pervert', and where, so far at least, it seems the community is respectful towards the views of others.

Esthersvirtue - your comment regarding not having the choice is who I shared my first sexual experience with struck home - I don't believe I've ever explored that specific reason for feeling sad.

DePressMe - I hope you were able to find some peace and relief from your pain last night and today - it was very sweet for you to chime in support in the middle of bad times for you. I also LOVE your sobriety count-up meter! I'm proud of your for finding the strength and courage to face that disease and get it under control so strongly - you have every right to advertise it! :-)

Rhapsody - thank you for your thoughts. I think I do have more work worth doing on the issue, although my current major depressive episode focuses on current marital and job issues. Before anyone says it, I know that in our disordered minds, all issues have an effect on all others, like a spiders web.

And Kiya - Hugs are ALWAYS welcome! I can sense the ocassional unsafe hug miles away but the vast majority of safe hugs are like gentle rain on parched earth. Thank you.

[Cyran0]

Gwydion, thanks for sharing that. Telling that story can't be easy for you and I congratulate you for your courage.

I could relate to much of what you wrote. I was sexually abused by older boys from a very young age. The age difference was about four or five years. I didn't consider it abuse until my mid twenties when my first son reached the age I had been when it all started. My therapist at the time asked me how I'd feel if that happened to my son and that did it, I became so upset I couldn't function but it was a breakthrough. I could finally see the abuse for what it was.

It was hard because I enjoyed the attention I got from these kids. I was included and while I felt horribly guilty and confused after each time, I still wanted it to happen. So it was my fault right? Wrong. The difference of a few years is huge when you're talking about kids and the older kids had all the tools they needed to completely manipulate me. The same is true of your brother.

Another piece of confusion I can relate to is what happened when you became sexually mature. I too initiated the same scenarios I'd been involved with when I was younger. For me it was with friends and was consensual but I can see now that I was recreating what I'd been forced to learn as a boy. And while I can't change the fact that I'm now bisexual, I can say that all the homosexual casual sex I had in my teens wouldn't have happened if I hadn't been abused by other boys first.

Finally, and I know this is tough, but it's ok to love your brother and still see the situation in its proper context. My older brother was very physically abusive and while I blame him for that, I still know he's my brother and I still see him at family functions. I'll never trust him but he's still family.

So that's how I relate to what you wrote. It's difficult but it's important to see how someone with power over us changed the direction of our life to satisfy themselves.

As to your question of therapy, if you have the means and the interest, why not? Best case scenario is you heal more; worst case scenario is you waste a little time and money.

Thanks again and be safe.

Cyran0

[AAAAA]

(((((Gwydion))))) I am so sorry for your pain and confusion.

Esthersvirtue is exactly right, the choice was taken from you. I child cannot consent. The fact that you were conditioned to accept and seek out the abuse as you got older doesn’t negate the fact that you were abused and your brother was wrong.

Cyran0, as usual you’re right on. When you put it into perceptive of “what if it were my child” things are in a different light.

I think the fact that the wood that you attack represented your brother’s genitals is very telling and that perhaps you’re not as at peace with the situation as you think you are. I wish you the very best!

I’ve avoided this forum for a long time because it interferes with my own denial. Maybe you also enjoy Egypt? (((((hugs)))))

[Gwydion]

Cyran0 -

Thank you for sharing how similar part of your story is - that also cannot have been easy. Interestingly, the age difference between my brother and me is 4 1/2 years as well.

You hit a trigger relating the question your therapist asked you regarding your son. One thing my original therapist asked me was if was so sure my brother was not 'an abuser' would I allow my son (around 4-5 at the time) to sleep over at my brothers house if invited. I replied that I wouldn't want to prolong a sad family issue by assuming my brother would abuse his nephew, especially as he was (and is) married and his wife would notice any odd nighttime activity. Therapist then asked me - "so you're sure that the other adult in the house would be aware of something improper going on between your brother and nephew?" and I replied, "yes". Then came the clincher which opened up a whole other area I need to explore....."Then if you're telling me you and your brother visted each other's bedrooms at night and engaged in sexual acts at least several times/month over the course of several years, how is it that your parents never found out? Were they that out of it or did they know something was wrong but did nothing?" - Wow, powerful question. Haven't really tackled that one yet!

I did end up allowing my son to stay overnight at his aunt and uncles house a few times, but conveniently it only worked out if I was sure my sister-in-law was indeed in town and around, and usually both my son and his older sister slept over at the same time.

Gwydion

[Perna]

I think it is hard, sometimes, to separate out abuse from what one has grown accustomed to and which has been important in the sense that it takes up a great deal of one's consciousness. Trying to figure out whether you felt abused or whether because this was your life for so long, it is just a strong impression and how it relates to your depression; I can readily understand your 50:50 problem, Gwydion!

I know I had and still have a great deal of trouble teasing out my stepmother's abuse in some areas; I tend to try to go one way or the other when in fact it is probably "whole cloth" and not so easy to pull apart individual strands.

Have you ever tried jumping ahead and pretending to look back on your life? What do you want for this piece of your life? No therapy can remove or alter it. How would you like to feel about it, if you could imagine other ways of "being"?

My stepmother died in 2001. My therapist rightly predicted that things would get easier for me after her death. However, trying to think about my stepmother as a whole is still fraught with complications for me. When she died I went around singing "Ding dong the witch is dead" from the Wizard of Oz but now that makes me feel guilty when I slip and think in that fashion, almost a similar guilt to when I put myself down.

I think your experiences are part of you and help make up who "You" are. I guess, were your problem mine, I might work a bit from the "other" direction; accept de facto that I am all of-a-piece and look to see what I could see of my shaping that is "good" from this period of time. In other words, I'd accept in a way that didn't try to pull apart or leave be and move on but merely to understand?

[Rapunzel]

Here's another question for you. How do you feel about yourself in relation to feeling that you enjoyed the activity or attention that you received from your brother? Is there any shame somewhere that you need to work through? Do you still feel vulnerable, or have you worked through that already?

I ask because when I was molested, at age 11, I didn't know what it was, but I liked that an adult was paying attention to me, and when he asked me if I liked it, I said yes. I sat by him again the next time. It took probably fifteen years before I remembered what happened, and I felt sick when I recognized that memory and what it was. The thing that made me feel sick was knowing that I had said yes. I still feel vulnerable because I still am not sure that I could say no under pressure, and I felt shameful and embarassed and disgusted with myself because I didn't know when I was 11 that what he was doing wasn't right. Just wondering if some of these feelings might apply to you also. I don't know if they do or not, but maybe that is part of the work that you still need to do as well.

[Gwydion]

Good questions, Rapunzel. I might need to keep working on that area of consent and saying I liked it. Since I enjoyed both the attention and the physical feelings, then matured into an adult completely comfortable with my bisexual self, it was very easy to move from point A to point B and assume there was no buried issues in between. That is certainly going on my list of issues to bring up in therapy!

Thanks,
Gwydion

[Cyran0]

Gwydion, I just wanted to add that I think your attitude and willingness to explore all of this is extremely positive. Good for you.

Keep us informed. I'd love to know how things progress.

Be safe.

Cyran0