[arachnophobia.kid]

Those of you who have seen me around here know that I've struggled with addiction (alcohol mostly) but I have been sober for some time now and have gone through long sober periods in the past. What I want to talk about is that I don't really want to think of myself as a recovering alcoholic. I'd prefer to think that I'm not an alcoholic anymore.

I know the consensus is that once you're an addict, you are always an addict, but isn't that just a defeating attitude to take? I don't think I will accept that definition. It seems that way of thinking only serves to make me focus on the issue, and in some ways I believe that makes it a bigger issue than it really is.

I understand why people think this way and that I may be more susceptible to addiction in general but I don't think that has to define me.

I'd prefer to look it at in a positive light. As in, it was a problem but it's not anymore and I am free of it. It doesn't mean that I'm going to allow myself to drink/use but it does mean that my life goes on and I can invest myself in other things. It means I don't have to be dwelling on this scar in my life as if it still holds any weight.

Anyway, I know this is not a new idea, but, any thoughts?

[Altered Moment]

You definitely don't want it to define you.

I do not know if you are familiar with AA.
In the book it says it is a physical allergy coupled with a mental obsession. I don't know if AA itself came up with the disease concept or not. I think it was the medical community. It is believed that it is progressive and that it even progresses when you are sober and that if you relapse it will be worse than where you left off. I can't remember if that stuff is in the literature or not or if it just came from members adopting it.

Anyway it does say in the book that "We have recovered from this disease." Most people say I am a recovering alcoholic but many say I am a "Recovered Alcoholic" because it says it in the book.

I say whatever works for you. However you choose to look at it that is healthy for you that is what you do. If you go to meetings don't be afraid to say "I am a recovered alcoholic."

I had a very similar debate with ******* in another thread. It was really about how we chose to look at things differently because that is what worked for us. I don't agree with him on some points about AA philosophy.

It is toward the end of the thread when we got into this debate.

http://forums.psychcentral.com/addic...-meetings.html

[trying2survive]

Originally Posted by arachnophobia.kid

Those of you who have seen me around here know that I've struggled with addiction (alcohol mostly) but I have been sober for some time now and have gone through long sober periods in the past. What I want to talk about is that I don't really want to think of myself as a recovering alcoholic. I'd prefer to think that I'm not an alcoholic anymore.

I know the consensus is that once you're an addict, you are always an addict, but isn't that just a defeating attitude to take? I don't think I will accept that definition. It seems that way of thinking only serves to make me focus on the issue, and in some ways I believe that makes it a bigger issue than it really is.

I understand why people think this way and that I may be more susceptible to addiction in general but I don't think that has to define me.

I'd prefer to look it at in a positive light. As in, it was a problem but it's not anymore and I am free of it. It doesn't mean that I'm going to allow myself to drink/use but it does mean that my life goes on and I can invest myself in other things. It means I don't have to be dwelling on this scar in my life as if it still holds any weight.

Anyway, I know this is not a new idea, but, any thoughts?

i believe if you're not doing it anymore , you're not an addict.
one of the things i never liked about AA was the whole "i am powerless over alcohol" thing, drinking is a choice. people drink for various reasons but it really like any other drug is an escape from problems.

once the individual chooses to deal with the problems head on the need for alcohol goes away.

now that is the kicker, because problems love to crop up almost daily,
then here comes the " i need a drink" when really a person is truly saying.."i want a drink because i can't handle what is happening"

so then it becomes a learned behavior/response to crises.
the addict has to decide enough is enough "the bottom" so to speak.

for me it's simple when you no longer exibit the behavior, you are no longer an addict

[Altered Moment]

Actually it says it a whole bunch of times.

RECOVERED in Big Book Alcoholics Anonymous, 12 Steps and 12 Traditions

I don't think AA as an organization came up with the disease concept of addiction but its members sure adopted it. The book does call it a malady. It says it is a physical, emotional, and spiritual illness.
http://aa-district14.org/dl/AA%26Dis...cept-Kurtz.pdf

The DSM 5 defines addiction as a disorder.

There are definitely huge genetic components to it for many of us.

I think it of it as a disease or disorder that I have recovered from, period. That doesn't mean I am never tempted or that it isn't possible i could relapse. If I relapsed for a long time i would be in a world on hurt.

It a complex question. i say look at it however works best for you. Call your self recovered. You can argue you are not an alcoholic because you don't drink.

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by trying2survive

i believe if you're not doing it anymore , you're not an addict.
one of the things i never liked about AA was the whole "i am powerless over alcohol" thing, drinking is a choice. people drink for various reasons but it really like any other drug is an escape from problems.

once the individual chooses to deal with the problems head on the need for alcohol goes away.

now that is the kicker, because problems love to crop up almost daily,
then here comes the " i need a drink" when really a person is truly saying.."i want a drink because i can't handle what is happening"

so then it becomes a learned behavior/response to crises.
the addict has to decide enough is enough "the bottom" so to speak.

for me it's simple when you no longer exibit the behavior, you are no longer an addict

I can't totally agree. I know it is very complicated and no one has to adopt the concepts and philosophy of AA. That is a free choice.

What do you mean when you say "when someone chooses to deal with their problems head on the need for alcohol goes away." How does that person deal with their problems? Do they need help? Or can they handle all their problems and addictions totally on their own under their own free will?

Some people can have addiction and not have an addictive personality or be an addict in any sense of the word. My ex wife is a good example. She was a coke head and cigarette smoker for a long time. She got pregnant and quit everything cold turkey without a problem and never touched anything again. She is not an addict.

Many people are powerless and don't have a choice. To me alcoholism and addiction is the same, alcohol is a drug, and I could switch drugs of choice all the time. But to keep it simple i will stick to alcohol.

I was genetically predisposed to alcoholism. My dad, my grandpa, all through both sides of the family. Environment plays a role because obviously if I had never touched a drink I would never have become and alcoholic. But I did and I drank so much for enough years I progressed into a full blown alcoholic. I tried for many years under all the will power I could muster many times and just could not do it. It was bigger and more powerful than me. I was definitely powerless. No matter how hard i tried at some point I was going to pick up again.

The concept of admitting you are powerless means that you have admitted that you just can't beat this thing on your own. You need help. It is a paradox. By admitting you are powerless you gain power.

Then there are the physical aspects and brain chemistry aspects to addiction and alcoholism.
There is no doubt there is such a thing as the phenomenon of craving. This means that most of the time once I get three or four drinks in me this overwhelming craving takes over and I just cannot stop drinking until I pass out or all the booze is gone and the stores are closed. I have heard hundreds of alcoholics describe the exact same thing.
People metabolize alcohol differently. Alcoholic definitely metabolize it differently than normal drinkers. Some people metabolize it in such a way that it has horrible effects and they never drink. It is believed that how alcoholic metabolize alcohol is what causes this phenomenon of craving.

It is not proven and there are lots of studies but it is believed that people born with addictive personalities have different brain chemistry than people who are not. Of course you can use a lot of any addictive substance and change your brain chemistry so that you are addicted to the substance. People can get through withdrawal and quit with out much difficulty like my ex wife who was addicted to coke. These people are not addicts in my view.

If you want to find out if you are powerless or not totally quit all drug and alcohol use for a year and see if you can do it. Prescription drugs taken as prescribed don't count. Some people can do it. No way I could. I was powerless. Might sound like a cop out but it is not. I gained huge power in admitting I needed help and couldn't do it alone. AA enabled me to gain power over alcohol and I am recovered.

I think you can think of / refer to yourself as a "recovering alcoholic" but not let it define you. Like you can also think of yourself as "a good friend", "a kind person", "a person who likes to cook", "an introvert", "someone who loves to read", etc. and they all can have equal weight to being a "recovering alcoholic". I'm not a recovering alcoholic, just a thought.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by arachnophobia.kid

I know the consensus is that once you're an addict, you are always an addict, but isn't that just a defeating attitude to take? I don't think I will accept that definition. It seems that way of thinking

I view it physiologically rather than personally. I don't see it as an attitude or thought process. I have adult-onset asthma acquired in my 50s and now, always will. The symptoms may not be there but my lungs are weaker than other systems in my body. Some people get depressed, some people get anxious, some people have weight problems and others, not so much.

It is not the substance's "fault" nor is it the individual's "fault" but just what shakes out, like how some people get the flu and others do not. If one gets the flu with pneumonia and has to be hospitalized they get a flu shot each year afterwards and pay attention to who is around them, etc. They do not go where the flu is/has been; where people are sick. If one becomes addicted to a substance and works to get healthy again, they don't "hang around" in "bars"/places where it is sold, etc. or go to parties where it is a center of attention.

How you think of yourself is your business? One can say "I was an alcoholic so do not drink anymore" and leave it at that or one can say, "I am an alcoholic but have not had a drink in 42 years", whatever helps you stay healthy. I do not see how, "I was an alcoholic but am not anymore" can be true if you do not drink and, if you were an alcoholic and start drinking again, that is like playing with fire (water :-) and not too smart? "Hey, I had a flu shot, think I'll go see how well it works. . ."

[arachnophobia.kid]

Thanks for all the responses, I appreciate the thoughts and ideas that you've put forward. I kinda get the idea that the word "addict" is subjective now, which is kind of nice. But it also makes communication about it pretty hard, and sort of arbitrary.

Maybe the point I was making was contradictory to the action of making this thread, maybe that was a mistake. I wanted to express that I don't want to think about it anymore but in doing that I made it a focus. Either way, I see it now that I am not an addict and I suppose I was looking for some kind of affirmation in that. Turns out I don't need that affirmation since the word itself is just a mess.

[Altered Moment]

I posted a lot but my main point would be to look at it in whatever way works for you to keep you sober.

I don't know how old you are, but maybe it never developed into alcoholism/addiction.

The main thing in my view is to stay sober however it is that works for you.

[trying2survive]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I can't totally agree. I know it is very complicated and no one has to adopt the concepts and philosophy of AA. That is a free choice.

What do you mean when you say "when someone chooses to deal with their problems head on the need for alcohol goes away." How does that person deal with their problems? Do they need help? Or can they handle all their problems and addictions totally on their own under their own free will?

Some people can have addiction and not have an addictive personality or be an addict in any sense of the word. My ex wife is a good example. She was a coke head and cigarette smoker for a long time. She got pregnant and quit everything cold turkey without a problem and never touched anything again. She is not an addict.

Many people are powerless and don't have a choice. To me alcoholism and addiction is the same, alcohol is a drug, and I could switch drugs of choice all the time. But to keep it simple i will stick to alcohol.

I was genetically predisposed to alcoholism. My dad, my grandpa, all through both sides of the family. Environment plays a role because obviously if I had never touched a drink I would never have become and alcoholic. But I did and I drank so much for enough years I progressed into a full blown alcoholic. I tried for many years under all the will power I could muster many times and just could not do it. It was bigger and more powerful than me. I was definitely powerless. No matter how hard i tried at some point I was going to pick up again.

The concept of admitting you are powerless means that you have admitted that you just can't beat this thing on your own. You need help. It is a paradox. By admitting you are powerless you gain power.

Then there are the physical aspects and brain chemistry aspects to addiction and alcoholism.
There is no doubt there is such a thing as the phenomenon of craving. This means that most of the time once I get three or four drinks in me this overwhelming craving takes over and I just cannot stop drinking until I pass out or all the booze is gone and the stores are closed. I have heard hundreds of alcoholics describe the exact same thing.
People metabolize alcohol differently. Alcoholic definitely metabolize it differently than normal drinkers. Some people metabolize it in such a way that it has horrible effects and they never drink. It is believed that how alcoholic metabolize alcohol is what causes this phenomenon of craving.

It is not proven and there are lots of studies but it is believed that people born with addictive personalities have different brain chemistry than people who are not. Of course you can use a lot of any addictive substance and change your brain chemistry so that you are addicted to the substance. People can get through withdrawal and quit with out much difficulty like my ex wife who was addicted to coke. These people are not addicts in my view.

If you want to find out if you are powerless or not totally quit all drug and alcohol use for a year and see if you can do it. Prescription drugs taken as prescribed don't count. Some people can do it. No way I could. I was powerless. Might sound like a cop out but it is not. I gained huge power in admitting I needed help and couldn't do it alone. AA enabled me to gain power over alcohol and I am recovered.

good discussion, let me elaborate. when i say choose to deal with their problems i mean to get to the heart of the problem without abusing a substance, alcohol,coke,meth and heroin whatever you choose they are all crutches.

let's say you have guy "a" he gets laid off from a job or is going through a divorce. there are several ways to approach the problem he could..
a) say, damn i just lost my job/wife..what am i gonna do i'm ****ed i gotta pay for this,that and the other. i need a drink..and start drinking/using.
b) accept responsibility for his part in the situation and begin looking for a new job/wife/gf/so
c) enlist the support of family and friends to help him get through a rough period in his life.
d) enlist the support of a local church or support group.

some people need help, others don't..but at the end of the day every single time you pick up that bottle, pick up that pipe, pick up that rig it is a conscious choice..a lot of it has to do with self control, " i like doing it and i don't care about the consequences".

some people may be genetically pre disposed to "alcoholism" but that doesn't give them a free pass on their responsibility to themselves and their loved ones, i just have a really hard time with the idea of being "powerless" i just don't believe that to be true. people can walk away they choose not to
my ex is 13 yrs clean from meth, used to do a lot of it..stole some checks from her mom & went to jail, she quit hasn't touched it since. i have another ex in prison right now, heroin addict. she did 4 months last summer/fall got out for 10 days went on a drug rampage violated with a dirty drop, 6 more months. got out for about 30 days still using o.d. and almost died ambulance came caught another case and is in prison now..she chooses not to stop 2 people confronted with the same situation but different choices and different outcomes.

i will use myself as an example, i'm a pretty heavy drinker when i drink, i quit for a year and a half..no problem. i started messing around with the girl with the heroin problem and started drinking again, can i stop..sure. do i want to not really. if i needed to stop or really wanted to stop could i?? absolutely.
the cravings have a lot to do with "self control" i want, i want, i want..we like to say "we need" but really its "we want ". i have been drinking for 25yrs, i stopped no problem when i was with my ex that did the meth, i got drunk one night called her a "****" (she hates that word) and i didn't remember saying it the next day, i said that's a problem and it was induced by alcohol, so i quit
just like that..was i *****y,absolutely.. irritable. she said it wasn't easy living with me when i was coming off of it, not at all. but i made a conscious choice not to do it again.

damn what i like, damn what i want..this is causing a problem so i need to stop..period.

i will use you for an example now, you needed help, AA worked for you
in my eyes you are not an addict, you don't use. it's not controlling you anymore.for me it doesn't matter how you get there,just that you do.
some people use AA, others meditation and mindfulness, others just walk away when it creates enough of a problem in their lives.each case is different.

so once you get into the habit of dealing with the problem at hand, the need for alcohol does go away, alcoholism and drug abuse are learned behaviors.
sure some people are more likely to abuse than others but at the end of the day every single one of us has a choice " to use or not to use"

[trying2survive]

Originally Posted by arachnophobia.kid

Thanks for all the responses, I appreciate the thoughts and ideas that you've put forward. I kinda get the idea that the word "addict" is subjective now, which is kind of nice. But it also makes communication about it pretty hard, and sort of arbitrary.

Maybe the point I was making was contradictory to the action of making this thread, maybe that was a mistake. I wanted to express that I don't want to think about it anymore but in doing that I made it a focus. Either way, I see it now that I am not an addict and I suppose I was looking for some kind of affirmation in that. Turns out I don't need that affirmation since the word itself is just a mess.

i think it's a good thread and everyone involved is getting something out of it.
it's good to look at and talk about these things & if it helps you stay health that's all the better

[Altered Moment]

I agree with you that alcoholism and addiction is a very complicated issue and one size does not fit all in my view. It could be a huge spectrum with many reasons and causes just like mental illness. We are all so very different genetically, biologically, environmentally, the tools we have to deal with problems.

Maybe the guy who loses his job and gets divorced never learned the tools to deal with it and only knows to turn to the drink. Hopefully he will choose to get the help he needs and learn the tools without alcohol.

I absolutely agree with you that I am responsible for every action, thought, feeling, anything I said or did to anyone, everything from day one. You could argue about how responsible a baby or a small child is for what happens to them, but I will take responsibility from day one. I am responsible for every drink and hit I took. For hurting my wife and child. I am responsible for my treatment and recovery and to get the help I need. Actually this is what AA totally teaches in spite of some misconceptions of it.

I chose, actually from working the steps, to look at it this way. I am not at fault or to blame for my depression, my alcoholism, my addiction, BUT I am totally responsible for them. To me there is a huge difference between fault and blame and responsibility. I was very shamed based and blamed myself for everything.....I am such a loser, I can't do anything right, f this and f that. I turned my anger inward. So I chose to take blame and fault totally out of the equation. I am not to blame, my wife is not to blame, my parents are not to blame, no one is to blame. It is just the way life is and this is the hand I was dealt. I am totally responsible to do something about it. There is a big sign in most AA rooms that says "I am Responsible." The steps are all about excepting responsibility and to quit blaming the world for your problems. You have to take responsibility for your resentments and get rid on them. You learn to look only at your part in things. You keep your side of the street clean. Where was I wrong? What do I need to change? Your part of it is none of my business. That is a big part of the philosophy.
I started a thread on it along time ago.
http://forums.psychcentral.com/depre...nsibility.html

It is certainly a crutch no doubt about that. Lets say the guy who loses his job and his wife leaves him and he dives into the bottle and then one day says I am going to my church to get help, and he finds the help he needs to deal with his problems without drinking. Couldn't you in a sense say he was powerless to do anything about it on his own, he needed help. He admitted he couldn't do it alone and chose to seek help thus being empowered.

You will never convince me personally that I was not powerless over my alcoholism/addiction. It has nothing to do with blame or it being a cop out. It is a paradox. By admitting you are powerless you are empowered.
I chose to take blame and fault out of it and replace it with forgiveness and responsibility. That is what has worked for me.

i just have a really hard time with the idea of being "powerless" i just don't believe that to be true. people can walk away they choose not to

I strongly disagree. For many many people it is just not true. I am one. It is just not that simple. Sure alcohol abuse and drug abuse are learned behaviours. For many they are genetically and biologically predisposed to those behaviours but environment has to play a role. For many people those behaviours get so biologically, psychologically, sociologically ingrained that they become powerless over them. They can't just simply choose to walk away. They need a tremendous amount of help and support.

i will use myself as an example, i'm a pretty heavy drinker when i drink, i quit for a year and a half..no problem. i started messing around with the girl with the heroin problem and started drinking again, can i stop..sure. do i want to not really. if i needed to stop or really wanted to stop could i?? absolutely.
the cravings have a lot to do with "self control" i want, i want, i want..we like to say "we need" but really its "we want ". i have been drinking for 25yrs, i stopped no problem when i was with my ex that did the meth, i got drunk one night called her a "****" (she hates that word) and i didn't remember saying it the next day, i said that's a problem and it was induced by alcohol, so i quit
just like that..was i *****y,absolutely.. irritable. she said it wasn't easy living with me when i was coming off of it, not at all. but i made a conscious choice not to do it again.

You have posted quite a bit about you struggles with addiction. Let me ask you this. When you quit drinking for a year and a half did you substitute with something else? Did you end up going back to drinking or some other drug? Have you ever started drinking and had that overwhelming craving take over and just could not stop drinking until you passed out or the booze was gone? You say you blacked out and called your gf a ***** and that is what prompted you to quit, how many times have you had black outs? You say you can quit any time you want, absolutely. But can you without help?

I am not saying at all you are an alcoholic or an addict. I don't know. Maybe you can totally walk away from it without any trouble. Actually my dad did it and he was a hard core alcoholic for many years. It seems he did it totally under his own willpower. I don't know for sure because he doesn't really talk about how he did it. Maybe he prayed to the native american Great Spirit and Creator. He is more inclined to those beliefs. We definitely have indian blood.

I only ask because we have talked about it before and I don't mean to offend. I really wish I could have just walked away from it. there was no way.

I am very glad you are open to discussion and debate. I to think it is very healthy and we don't have to agree on everything.

[Altered Moment]

Or lets take my depression as an example. This is how it happens. One day a switch goes off in my brain and I go into a horrible deep suicidal depression. How long it lasts varies. I can hardly get out of bed and sleep a lot and so on and so on....all the symptoms.

Now do I have any control over that switch? Is it a choice, and I choose to be depressed? Or do I have a choice over how long it lasts? I will tell you no way in hell do I have a choice in the matter. I can write you a book on everything I have done to treat it, yet the switch still gets thrown. I have a life time of this happening and have never been able to choose or think my way out of it.

Do you have any control over paranoid thoughts that pop into your head. Is it a choice? Can you just choose for them to got away and they do? I doubt it is that simple.

[dennispie2011]

I read that you think it is defeating to dwell on the issue of your own addiction. You're right, but you are not required to focus on just the negative. You know better than anyone how negative your life becomes when you're using/drinking. That knowledge is yours to learn from.
In CP&R, your thinking error is "uniqueness." In many 12-step meetings this would be called "stinking thinking."

[Altered Moment]

What is CP&R?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[trying2survive]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I agree with you that alcoholism and addiction is a very complicated issue and one size does not fit all in my view. It could be a huge spectrum with many reasons and causes just like mental illness. We are all so very different genetically, biologically, environmentally, the tools we have to deal with problems.

Maybe the guy who loses his job and gets divorced never learned the tools to deal with it and only knows to turn to the drink. Hopefully he will choose to get the help he needs and learn the tools without alcohol.

I absolutely agree with you that I am responsible for every action, thought, feeling, anything I said or did to anyone, everything from day one. You could argue about how responsible a baby or a small child is for what happens to them, but I will take responsibility from day one. I am responsible for every drink and hit I took. For hurting my wife and child. I am responsible for my treatment and recovery and to get the help I need. Actually this is what AA totally teaches in spite of some misconceptions of it.

I chose, actually from working the steps, to look at it this way. I am not at fault or to blame for my depression, my alcoholism, my addiction, BUT I am totally responsible for them. To me there is a huge difference between fault and blame and responsibility. I was very shamed based and blamed myself for everything.....I am such a loser, I can't do anything right, f this and f that. I turned my anger inward. So I chose to take blame and fault totally out of the equation. I am not to blame, my wife is not to blame, my parents are not to blame, no one is to blame. It is just the way life is and this is the hand I was dealt. I am totally responsible to do something about it. There is a big sign in most AA rooms that says "I am Responsible." The steps are all about excepting responsibility and to quit blaming the world for your problems. You have to take responsibility for your resentments and get rid on them. You learn to look only at your part in things. You keep your side of the street clean. Where was I wrong? What do I need to change? Your part of it is none of my business. That is a big part of the philosophy.
I started a thread on it along time ago.
http://forums.psychcentral.com/depre...nsibility.html

It is certainly a crutch no doubt about that. Lets say the guy who loses his job and his wife leaves him and he dives into the bottle and then one day says I am going to my church to get help, and he finds the help he needs to deal with his problems without drinking. Couldn't you in a sense say he was powerless to do anything about it on his own, he needed help. He admitted he couldn't do it alone and chose to seek help thus being empowered.

You will never convince me personally that I was not powerless over my alcoholism/addiction. It has nothing to do with blame or it being a cop out. It is a paradox. By admitting you are powerless you are empowered.
I chose to take blame and fault out of it and replace it with forgiveness and responsibility. That is what has worked for me.


I strongly disagree. For many many people it is just not true. I am one. It is just not that simple. Sure alcohol abuse and drug abuse are learned behaviours. For many they are genetically and biologically predisposed to those behaviours but environment has to play a role. For many people those behaviours get so biologically, psychologically, sociologically ingrained that they become powerless over them. They can't just simply choose to walk away. They need a tremendous amount of help and support.


You have posted quite a bit about you struggles with addiction. Let me ask you this. When you quit drinking for a year and a half did you substitute with something else? Did you end up going back to drinking or some other drug? Have you ever started drinking and had that overwhelming craving take over and just could not stop drinking until you passed out or the booze was gone? You say you blacked out and called your gf a ***** and that is what prompted you to quit, how many times have you had black outs? You say you can quit any time you want, absolutely. But can you without help?

I am not saying at all you are an alcoholic or an addict. I don't know. Maybe you can totally walk away from it without any trouble. Actually my dad did it and he was a hard core alcoholic for many years. It seems he did it totally under his own willpower. I don't know for sure because he doesn't really talk about how he did it. Maybe he prayed to the native american Great Spirit and Creator. He is more inclined to those beliefs. We definitely have indian blood.

I only ask because we have talked about it before and I don't mean to offend. I really wish I could have just walked away from it. there was no way.

I am very glad you are open to discussion and debate. I to think it is very healthy and we don't have to agree on everything.

i will be happy to elaborate and am enjoying this discussion quite a bit and i sincerely hope all who read get something positive out of it. i respect the fact that you may not agree with whether you were powerless or not, but consider this...

you at the end of the day & only you made the choice to get sober,
wouldn't you agree? not the courts, not your kids or ex wife..correct?

so with that being said, IMHO you did have some power, because you made the decision to get help and it worked for you. IMHO if you were truly powerless than you would still be drinking..correct?
so i don't feel that because you needed help, that you were powerless,
merely you just needed some assistance and structure so you could stay on the wagon( so to speak).

so to answer your question, when i quit drinking, i quit everything..cigarettes,
pills of any kind, and alcohol. i ate healthy(which i still do) and i worked out every day( not back to that yet..at least not every day!) i only started drinking again when i got involved with the wrong girl and that is a long and complicated story but i will elaborate if you need me to.

in my hardcore drinking days i have blacked out many times, i have 3 dui's
i have totaled many cars( thankfully i walked away from all of the accidents)
countless tickets and court dates, strained relationships and more, so to
elaborate further i never let the liquor run out because i always bought half gallons ( hee hee it would be impossible for me to drink a half gallon in a day!). and i still buy like that now, today i'm not drinking..yesterday i did.

some people considering the wrecked cars and numerous run ins with the law would say i am an alcoholic. other would say no, i walked away no problem..after 3 months i didn't miss it and had no intentions of every drinking again.a year and a half is a long time and i enjoyed it..it was different but very enjoyable. i got rid of that troublesome girl and as soon as i get into another relationship in all likelyhood i will toss the alcohol again. right now it helps me meet people of the opposite sex and helps deal with the anxiety that brings,
it's a stupid reason but it's working for me right now. i don't plan on being around any female today so..i have no need or desire to drink at the moment.

some days i will have a drink for the hell of it(if i got a lot going on)
but i'm not black out drinking like i used to, with me having BPD being alone a lot takes it's toll on me, i prefer to be in a relationship. i no longer drink every day & don't drink nearly as hard. a half gallon last me 2 weeks or more.

i don't wake up drinking, in the old days i can remember many times when the sun came up..the bottle was open.the cops and special interest groups(MADD,etc.) have taken a lot of the fun out of drinking, i don't go out
and party like i used to at all..3 dui's can have that affect on you. i mainly drink at home, have a friend or 2 over..have a few..that's it. maybe that helped me some...maybe not.

so i still believe you chose to walk away & AA helped you. it's a wonderful program, it is. not for me ,but it does work for a lot of people.when we speak
of people,places and things..these are the issues that keep people "addicted"
so to speak, people tend to think "i don't want to give up my friends" or "i love hanging out there, i don't want to give that up". " i can never do "X" again"
people inherently don't like to change...this i believe is the biggest problem.
alcohol,drugs and the like are just a symptom of a bigger problem, an inability to make proper choices for oneself IMHO.

i'm still guilty of it, many people are..the girl that gave me all that trouble, heroin addict. i had no business fooling around with her, but i did.i take full responsibility for that, i have to. i chose to walk away..and wa la magically all the problems i had with her dissapeared, did i want to walk away..at first no,
i had to hit my head a couple times to realize that she cared nothing about me or my happiness(she was ASPD also, nice choice..huh?) but we all have the capability to walk away...note i said capability..not desire. IMHO an addict does not want to quit, they are aware that it is destroying their life and do not care. do not want help and do not seek help, if you need help that's fine nothing wrong with that..but, you have to want it..reach out for it..and sure you may fall of the wagon a couple times..relapse happens.normal part of recovery but again in my humble opinion needing help doesn't make you powerless...now i know you may not agree with me so i suppose we can agree to disagree! LOL!

[trying2survive]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

Or lets take my depression as an example. This is how it happens. One day a switch goes off in my brain and I go into a horrible deep suicidal depression. How long it lasts varies. I can hardly get out of bed and sleep a lot and so on and so on....all the symptoms.

Now do I have any control over that switch? Is it a choice, and I choose to be depressed? Or do I have a choice over how long it lasts? I will tell you no way in hell do I have a choice in the matter. I can write you a book on everything I have done to treat it, yet the switch still gets thrown. I have a life time of this happening and have never been able to choose or think my way out of it.

Do you have any control over paranoid thoughts that pop into your head. Is it a choice? Can you just choose for them to got away and they do? I doubt it is that simple.

i would say depression is a completely different animal. i firmly believe that in that case , yes you have no choice, i cannot tell you that i have a total understanding because my moods swing all over the place, i cannot control what causes them..but i can limit my exposure to triggers.my anxiety, my paranoia, my abandonment issues i cannot control what causes them at all.
but i can limit my exposure to what triggers me, sometimes that's not enough.

do you have a choice over how long it last..i think not, i cannot say..quite honestly i am not educated enough on the matter to elaborate deeply on depression..it is a feeling i have felt but only for brief periods of time, my heart goes out to you..i cannot imagine what it would be like to be down for long periods of time.

i have no control over the thoughts that pop into my head..per se
but through mindfulness and meditation i can choose not to let them control me( which of course i don't do nearly enough!).

all i can say is i feel depression as well as BPD are quite different from addiction i believe.

[Altered Moment]

I am glad your responded and are enjoying the discussion. I am too. I was waiting for you. lol
As far as your last response I don't see depression, BPD, Big Polar, and addiction as really any different. All are diseases or disorders depending on a lot of different factors. In my view if someone has an addictive personality (see other threads) they have a disease the same as clinical depression. We probably disagree on that. The DSM 5 which the psychiatric community uses to come up with diagnosis, says addiction is a disorder.

you at the end of the day & only you made the choice to get sober,
wouldn't you agree? not the courts, not your kids or ex wife..correct?

so with that being said, IMHO you did have some power, because you made the decision to get help and it worked for you. IMHO if you were truly powerless than you would still be drinking..correct?
so i don't feel that because you needed help, that you were powerless,
merely you just needed some assistance and structure so you could stay on the wagon( so to speak).

I will take it in chunks.
You are absolutely correct. My boss, my wife, my parents, my friends had been telling me for years to get sober. I totally made the decision with my own free will. In a sense I feel it was forced because for me I was at an extreme bottom, but I could have chosen to keep using. Many people do in the same boat. So it was under my own free will that I chose to call a treatment center. Our definition of powerless is different. To me I was powerless because I needed help. Under my own free will no way could I get and stay sober. I could not get and stay sober under my own power therefore I was powerless. I needed outside help. To me it is that simple. I quit many many times under my own power but I could not stay quit. Not for very long. Longest ever was 6 months and I was smoking pot. I tried many many times sincerely and honestly under all the will power I could muster and no way I could do it. So in a sense I needed a power greater than myself to get and stay sober. My own power wasn't going to get me to stay sober for any serious length of time. Getting outside help is tapping into a power greater than yourself even if it is just human power. There is strength in numbers. A bunch of people working toward the same goal has tremendous power. The total power is not equal to the sum of its parts. There is more power in total than adding up each individual. So I have made my point.

I will not tell you it has to be God intervening in your life to gain power. Many atheist do it. People do it in lots of ways. For me I needed a power greater than myself is all I know.

Let me tell you how it happened. The moment I made the decision to call that treatment center and even before I called, I experienced a huge psychic shift. I felt a total sense of relief. I was filled full of hope where I had none previously. I knew I was really going to get help and I stood a good chance. Many in AA will say I had a spiritual experience. I don't know about that. I do know that ever since that moment it has not been hard to stay sober. Maybe the obsession was removed at that moment I do not know. You might argue that since I made that decision and experienced a psychic shift that I could have stayed sober on my own. No way. I needed all the help I could get and jumped in head first and have been clean and sober for 19 years since. That is called lasting sobriety.

On that moment - I am not religious and I don't think God puts his finger in and intervenes in our lives. Answers some prayers and not others. I do however believe that there is a whole lot to this universe that we cannot comprehend with our senses. There is such a thing as a sixth sense. Some people have it more than others. I have gotten glimpses in states beyond the normal senses. My belief is that there is a power that with our free will and the help of others we can tap into. There are many bizarre aspects to the universe. Maybe when you practice meditation and mindfulness to avoid intrusive thoughts you are tapping into this power.

I am kind of a physics and quantum physics buff. The theories quantum physics and string theory are coming up with will blow your mind and shake all your perceptions of reality. An oldie but goody is Bells Theorem of Non Locality. Einstein called it spooky action at a distance. Einstein did not believe in quantum theory and famously said "God does not play dice with the universe."

So one example- it has always been believed that no two objects can communicate with each other faster than the speed of light. The cosmic speed limit. Quantum mechanics has proven that an event here in say Kansas can instantaneously effect the outcome of an event in say China. How is that possible? yet in the world of quantum mechanics it is experimentally proven.

Another one is the famous Schrodingers cat. Events do not become reality until they are observed. There is no such thing as and objective experiment. Everything depends on the experimenter, the device, how it was designed....how we choose to look at it. The old - does a tree falling in the woods make a sound if no one is there to see it. At the quantum level it does not make a noise until it is observed. How is that possible? yet in the world on quantum mechanics it is experimentally proven.

There are others and some bizzare theories about multi universes and all kinds of stuff.

My whole point here is that we only have a very tiny perception of reality. Very little understanding of the universe. You can't really say that there are not unknown powers and forces at work in the universe.

So this power I believe exists may lie within us or it may lie without. I believe it permeates everything. Lets say it lies within me. How am I to access it to change who I am. To change my reality. To beat depression. If it lies within me it is my power. Its a paradox. I believe we cannot access it without the help of others in some way. Life is a We game not an I game. All parts of the universe work together not independently. This forum is a great example. We get help here we would never get on our own. I can't prove it. It is beyond my understanding and comprehension. I have had glimpses. It is my belief based on my experience and the experience of others and a lot of reading.

A lot for your initial question but that is how I view it. More later.

[Altered Moment]

So I explained my views on power and powerlessness. And I read the rest of your post.

A year and a half is a long time. That is quite an accomplishment. I am not suggesting this is the case at all because I do not know but I will point out that relationships can be addictive as well. Substance addictions can be switched to behavioral addictions. It happens in AA all the time. People stay clean and sober but they become workaholics, addicted to gambling, sex addiction, love addiction, and all kinds of things. It is really hard for addicts to give up all addictions or to not cross addict. It depends on how much they effect your life and how hard you are working on getting rid of them and on personal growth and so on. Are you moving in the right direction or the wrong direction. I am still addicted to cigarettes. I used to be addicted to gaming for about five years in recovery. I can get borderline addicted to this damn computer. Golf, Photography etc. I think I have done very well and worked very hard as far as addictions go but I do have to watch the behavioral ones. My main issue is depression. There are many in AA that have been clean and sober a long time but are actually much sicker than before they came it. So we also have to consider behavioral addictions.

In my hardcore drinking days i have blacked out many times, i have 3 dui's
i have totaled many cars( thankfully i walked away from all of the accidents)
countless tickets and court dates, strained relationships and more, so to
elaborate further i never let the liquor run out because i always bought half gallons ( hee hee it would be impossible for me to drink a half gallon in a day!). and i still buy like that now, today i'm not drinking..yesterday i did.

It is not my business at all to call you an alcoholic. But do you think all those items might qualify you?

You say you started drinking again but it is moderate or controlled. Are there any other substances you may be addicted to or are abusing at the current time?

alcohol,drugs and the like are just a symptom of a bigger problem, an inability to make proper choices for oneself

I would agree. I would say alcohol and drug abuse are symptoms of addiction. You say it is an inability to make proper choices for oneself. That sure seems to be true, but why do they have that inability? What is the underlying problem as to why they have an inability to make proper choices? An inability implies powerlessness. I don't think it is as simple as choosing to walk away. It is much more complicated than that. Maybe some can do it. Like I said my dad did it and I know he was an alcoholic. I don't understand it. In my experience he is the exception and not the rule. If you can do it more power to you. Today I am actually glad I couldn't do it on my own.

I know I asked some personal questions and I do not mean to offend at all. Really I don't. You are free to ask me any personal questions you like and I will be honest with you. Honest open dialogue is a healthy thing as long as we are not throwing stones at each other. I enjoy our discussion and it benefits me.

[trying2survive]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

So I explained my views on power and powerlessness. And I read the rest of your post.

A year and a half is a long time. That is quite an accomplishment. I am not suggesting this is the case at all because I do not know but I will point out that relationships can be addictive as well. Substance addictions can be switched to behavioral addictions. It happens in AA all the time. People stay clean and sober but they become workaholics, addicted to gambling, sex addiction, love addiction, and all kinds of things. It is really hard for addicts to give up all addictions or to not cross addict. It depends on how much they effect your life and how hard you are working on getting rid of them and on personal growth and so on. Are you moving in the right direction or the wrong direction. I am still addicted to cigarettes. I used to be addicted to gaming for about five years in recovery. I can get borderline addicted to this damn computer. Golf, Photography etc. I think I have done very well and worked very hard as far as addictions go but I do have to watch the behavioral ones. My main issue is depression. There are many in AA that have been clean and sober a long time but are actually much sicker than before they came it. So we also have to consider behavioral addictions.


It is not my business at all to call you an alcoholic. But do you think all those items might qualify you?

You say you started drinking again but it is moderate or controlled. Are there any other substances you may be addicted to or are abusing at the current time?


I would agree. I would say alcohol and drug abuse are symptoms of addiction. You say it is an inability to make proper choices for oneself. That sure seems to be true, but why do they have that inability? What is the underlying problem as to why they have an inability to make proper choices? An inability implies powerlessness. I don't think it is as simple as choosing to walk away. It is much more complicated than that. Maybe some can do it. Like I said my dad did it and I know he was an alcoholic. I don't understand it. In my experience he is the exception and not the rule. If you can do it more power to you. Today I am actually glad I couldn't do it on my own.

I know I asked some personal questions and I do not mean to offend at all. Really I don't. You are free to ask me any personal questions you like and I will be honest with you. Honest open dialogue is a healthy thing as long as we are not throwing stones at each other. I enjoy our discussion and it benefits me.

i apologize for the delay, as i would like to think deeply before i respond..so forgive me if i have kept you for some time..so let me continue to elaborate if you will..

let me address the first question as far as behavioral addictions....i suffer from BPD and it's quite severe, i won't say it is a behavior addiction but instead a personality disorder, the trauma and experiences in my life have manifested itself in this affliction..some factors i could control others i could not, nonetheless here i am.

i don't suppose i could honestly say that i was/are/am addicted to anything at this point or even then, though i engaged in some reckless behavior( i don't deny that..i accept full responsibility for my actions and their outcomes)

i believe many of my actions were indeed "acting out" if you will.. during times of stress, unhappiness and instability in my life at the time.

i will say that the master key system by charles hanaal helped me immensely
and showed me a great many things about the world we live in and how we create our own realities. metaphysics is one of my favorite subjects and i am an avid student indeed.

as far as the incidents i was involved in, it depends on the opinion of the person you ask. i don't drink too often anymore..here and there moderate would be the best answer, i had 2 drinks last night and that was all. the previous day i drank nothing. before i quit, i drank "balls out" quite a bit.
i no longer have a desire to drink like that. i don't use anything else other than cigarettes and i'm strongly considering quitting again this week..my plan is to let this pack i'm on now be my last.

so lets get to the inability to make proper choices...this is a matter of self control at its core, this is why i believe the master key system is so powerful..it teaches a lot about self control..self mastery. this i believe is at the heart..the core of all of our problems & it is very difficult. a wise man once said "it is easier to control a kingdom than it is to control one's self"
that is a powerful statement and a very true statement. at the moment i have a measure of self control..but not where i used to be..i can get their again..this is why i know i can quit.

so the inability to make proper choices is a two part answer and to get to the core we must be totally honest with ourselves.

1) part of the inability is a lack of knowledge(tools) this is primarily a environmental factor..how you grew up,the people you hang around,what you have learned and internalized as a child and carried over into adulthood.
in laymans' terms in this instance we don't know any better.

2) the second part is a lack of desire.." i like getting high", "i don't want to give that up'", "i like the way it makes me feel" , "this helps me cope", " i love drinking" etc. all of us have an inherent since of what is beneficial to us and what isn't, what we don't already "understand' we can deduce from the phenomena of cause and effect..well i did x and y happened..i didn't like y..so if i don't want y to reoccur i need to stop doing x.

so now the question that begs to be asked is ..well if y keeps happening the why do some people continue to do x? correct?

some do, some don't the consequences are perceived to not be great enough to inhibit this type of behavior, that is the short answer.

so when i say choose to walk away that is the short,simplistic ,logical answer.
if you put your hand on a hot stove, it hurts you don't do it again...it is the same principle with different circumstances.

self control is not something that is taught in any great detail anywhere on this planet, yet it is one of the most key elements to a satisfying life..in school they teach us calculus and trigonometry which of course is something i use every day

[Altered Moment]

It has often been said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I don't think BPD really has anything to do with behavioural addictions. They tried to tag me with that once. I don't know much about it but it seems that is a whole other animal. Maybe interrelated...i dunno.

i will say that the master key system by charles hanaal helped me immensely

I will have to check this out. I am also into metaphysics. Hey we might even come to some common ground on power who knows.

[trying2survive]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

It has often been said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I don't think BPD really has anything to do with behavioural addictions. They tried to tag me with that once. I don't know much about it but it seems that is a whole other animal. Maybe interrelated...i dunno.


I will have to check this out. I am also into metaphysics. Hey we might even come to some common ground on power who knows.

agreed..that would be quite nice!