[Shadix]

I have always been socially awkward and while I have never been diagnosed officially, I think it is very likely I am on the spectrum. If I am, does it mean I am doomed to forever being somewhat socially awkward and that there is no point in trying to be more charismatic and pleasant? Are people with Aspergers just not wired to be charismatic and pleasant in social situations?

Unfortunately for me, I am not one of those Aspeies with that stereotypical "Aspie brain" which allows you to excel at science and computers and things of the sort. I am actually quite slow mentally and fall behind in those areas. So I feel like I have nothing to make up for my social awkwardness.

[Talthybius]

Oh, come on.

[Skeezyks]

Hello Shadix: You know... I don't have the answer to this. I don't even know if there is an answer. But a couple of things strike me here. First is you wrote you have not been diagnosed as having Asperger's. So my thought would be, before you begin looking at your life in terms of what limitations having Asperger's might place on it, it might be a good idea to determine if you could even be diagnosed with it.

I guess I don't know if having charisma is something that is really worth being concerned about. It is certainly true that some people just seem to have "a certain something" that causes other people to be drawn to them. (I was never one of those people.) But I don't know if that is something one can learn. People who have it, just have it. And those of us who don't... don't... in my opinion. That doesn't mean that we can't be successful in our own individual ways.

If you do an internet search for famous people who have Asperger's, you'll find the names (& pictures) of many highly successful people. Do they all have charisma? No. Some of them probably do. But what's important, it seems to me, is that you figure out what you can do, & want to do, in your life & pursue that... charisma or no charisma. I wish you well...

[Shadix]

Originally Posted by Skeezyks

Hello Shadix: You know... I don't have the answer to this. I don't even know if there is an answer. But a couple of things strike me here. First is you wrote you have not been diagnosed as having Asperger's. So my thought would be, before you begin looking at your life in terms of what limitations having Asperger's might place on it, it might be a good idea to determine if you could even be diagnosed with it.

I guess I don't know if having charisma is something that is really worth being concerned about. It is certainly true that some people just seem to have "a certain something" that causes other people to be drawn to them. (I was never one of those people.) But I don't know if that is something one can learn. People who have it, just have it. And those of us who don't... don't... in my opinion. That doesn't mean that we can't be successful in our own individual ways.

If you do an internet search for famous people who have Asperger's, you'll find the names (& pictures) of many highly successful people. Do they all have charisma? No. Some of them probably do. But what's important, it seems to me, is that you figure out what you can do, & want to do, in your life & pursue that... charisma or no charisma. I wish you well...

Well, the problem is, I have a brother who does have that "certain something" that causes other people to be drawn to him. People always seem to find him more appealing than me, especially girls. This makes me feel obsolete and worthless. I basically don't acknowledge this openly and continue to tell myself that I can develop the same social skills and be just as appealing as him. But if it is really true that I am programmed to lose at this game, then I need to basically put a stop to it. I need to let him know that his charismatic personality overshadows mine and that he needs to tone it down around me. He doesn't need to flirt with every girl he sees or give lectures about topics to make himself look smart. It isn't right for him to make me look pathetic just to feed his ego. He can switch the charisma off and behave like a normal person.

Unfortunately, I do not have any non-social ambitions that could make up for my lack of personal appeal. I am not a computer wiz nor am I good at sports. And I am not at a young age where I can find my niche, I am 28. It is too late for me to truly excel at anything.

[Eclecticdivergent1]

"And I am not at a young age where I can find my niche, I am 28. It is too late for me to truly excel at anything."
I went back to school in my 40s ... I was not the oldest in my classes. You should still have a long life left; Go follow your dreams!

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by Shadix

Well, the problem is, I have a brother who does have that "certain something" that causes other people to be drawn to him. People always seem to find him more appealing than me, especially girls. This makes me feel obsolete and worthless. I basically don't acknowledge this openly and continue to tell myself that I can develop the same social skills and be just as appealing as him. But if it is really true that I am programmed to lose at this game, then I need to basically put a stop to it. I need to let him know that his charismatic personality overshadows mine and that he needs to tone it down around me. He doesn't need to flirt with every girl he sees or give lectures about topics to make himself look smart. It isn't right for him to make me look pathetic just to feed his ego. He can switch the charisma off and behave like a normal person.

Unfortunately, I do not have any non-social ambitions that could make up for my lack of personal appeal. I am not a computer wiz nor am I good at sports. And I am not at a young age where I can find my niche, I am 28. It is too late for me to truly excel at anything.

I don't know if anything I say will make any difference in helping you. I implore you to take this very post to a therapist.

[Talthybius]

Look Shadix, I was 29 when I went back to school. I am excelling. And unlike you, a therapist did suggest to me it was worth it to test me for (high functional) autism and I was in complete social isolation where the only social interactions I experienced was with my parents, who have an extremely unpleasant hateful relationship

I am excelling. I even got the most amazing girl in my classes to become interested in me in some manner.

Your problem, and my problem in the past was, that I had no goal and ambition. Because I had no drive. Because I only wanted to try if I was sure I would excel. My idea was that if you do not try, you cannot fail and nothing is lost. And if you can accept a life filled with emptiness, you are more happy and content then when you have an exciting life, but you yearn for more.

Also, you don't need to be witty and quick of mind to flirt with a woman.

My best friend (who I haven't met in person for 6 years) told of a similar story to yours. He thinks him and me are alike. So maybe he and you are alike in some manner as well. He admired his brother for his looks, social skills and interactions with woman. Later on, he got closer to his brother and he learned that his brother admired many things my friend had, but his brother had not. And they got a better friendship realising this. At least that's what he told me.

Yes, you cannot beat your bother at what he does best. And yes, people gravitate to strangers that are charismatic. If people also prefer that charismatic person as a friend, I am not sure about. Maybe, but the effect will be less.

What do you really want out of all of this? You to tell us how many negative thoughts you have about yourself and everyone else to tell you that you are wrong and that you are charismatic and witty?
Do you want to know that there are people who share similar experienced?

Look, your concerns are understandable and many people, especially males, have to struggle with this (as females are generally valued slightly different). But what are you going to do about it? Like I think I have said before, given what you have said, you either accept yourself, change yourself, or a mix/compromise of both. And what are you going to do, from tomorrow onwards, to achieve this?

[Shadix]

Originally Posted by Talthybius

Look Shadix, I was 29 when I went back to school. I am excelling. And unlike you, a therapist did suggest to me it was worth it to test me for (high functional) autism and I was in complete social isolation where the only social interactions I experienced was with my parents, who have an extremely unpleasant hateful relationship

I am excelling. I even got the most amazing girl in my classes to become interested in me in some manner.

Your problem, and my problem in the past was, that I had no goal and ambition. Because I had no drive. Because I only wanted to try if I was sure I would excel. My idea was that if you do not try, you cannot fail and nothing is lost. And if you can accept a life filled with emptiness, you are more happy and content then when you have an exciting life, but you yearn for more.

Also, you don't need to be witty and quick of mind to flirt with a woman.

My best friend (who I haven't met in person for 6 years) told of a similar story to yours. He thinks him and me are alike. So maybe he and you are alike in some manner as well. He admired his brother for his looks, social skills and interactions with woman. Later on, he got closer to his brother and he learned that his brother admired many things my friend had, but his brother had not. And they got a better friendship realising this. At least that's what he told me.

Yes, you cannot beat your bother at what he does best. And yes, people gravitate to strangers that are charismatic. If people also prefer that charismatic person as a friend, I am not sure about. Maybe, but the effect will be less.

What do you really want out of all of this? You to tell us how many negative thoughts you have about yourself and everyone else to tell you that you are wrong and that you are charismatic and witty?
Do you want to know that there are people who share similar experienced?

Look, your concerns are understandable and many people, especially males, have to struggle with this (as females are generally valued slightly different). But what are you going to do about it? Like I think I have said before, given what you have said, you either accept yourself, change yourself, or a mix/compromise of both. And what are you going to do, from tomorrow onwards, to achieve this?

Has your high functioning autism diagnosis helped in any way? My therapist basically said that the only thing she would do for mild autism is social skills training, and she would be doing that with me anyways, since I have social anxiety. So there wouldn't be much point in a diagnosis. I stopped going to that therapist though because she doesn't take insurance and her schedule is not convenient with my work.

There are things I would like to excel at, but another part of my problem is I suspect I suffer from cognitive slowness and that this might prevent me from excelling in some areas. If I am always going to lag behind in something, I would like to not put my time and energy into it. I think most people look down on you if you suck at what you do. For example, one of the things I love to do is learn new languages. I have been teaching myself a couple of for a while now using (pirated) CDs. But I am concerned that having slow cognitive processing speed could prevent me from being able to effectively communicate in foreign languages. Hell, I have trouble even communicating in English. Wouldn't I look like a fraud if I tout myself as someone who loved learning new languages and then it is revealed that I actually can't speak any of them very well at all? Unfortunately it seems most things I am interested in would require some cognitive ability. It would really help if I could know my limits, but it isn't very easy to determine something like that. And the problem is people are so harsh and judgemental. If you present yourself as incompetent at things you do, people judge as an all around incompetent person. People seem to put you into one of two categories: competent people and incompetent people. I do not want to be put into the latter category, because I think that is what limits my ability to be socially valued and to score desirable dating partners.

[Talthybius]

I don't have a diagnosis. I talked with a psychologist and she suggested to me to forward me to a psychiatrist, who can make a diagnosis. I decided not to.

I don't think psychology and psychiatry are scientific enough to label anything more than symptoms. Two people both diagnoses with autism may have completely different mechanisms explaining their 'symptoms'. I don't see the point getting a label. I'd like to think my neurology is correct, and I am just damaged and can be cured. I don't see how me knowing I have autistic behavior wired into my neurology is helpful. And I suspect I may get the label 'autism' even if my genetics and neurology are fine.

So yes, the burden of having the label isn't worth it as there is no cure or treatment.

Either way, I may have unique neurology, which allowed me to perform terribly as a child and teenager, and perform excellent as an adult. I still don't understand how I was asble to switch in a way higher mode. I can't explain it. But I think for me that thinking I couldn't do something, and everyone around me apparenlty having the same judgment, is one of the reasons why I couldn't do what I now can.

My son has aspergers and he is very charismatic and goofy and wonderful. He's 17 and enjoys reading jokes and "puns" and likes to tell people goofy puns which make them smile. He can put a smile on your face even in the darkest of times. He is very charming and definately has charisma.

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by Shadix

Has your high functioning autism diagnosis helped in any way? My therapist basically said that the only thing she would do for mild autism is social skills training, and she would be doing that with me anyways, since I have social anxiety. So there wouldn't be much point in a diagnosis. I stopped going to that therapist though because she doesn't take insurance and her schedule is not convenient with my work.

There are things I would like to excel at, but another part of my problem is I suspect I suffer from cognitive slowness and that this might prevent me from excelling in some areas. If I am always going to lag behind in something, I would like to not put my time and energy into it. I think most people look down on you if you suck at what you do. For example, one of the things I love to do is learn new languages. I have been teaching myself a couple of for a while now using (pirated) CDs. But I am concerned that having slow cognitive processing speed could prevent me from being able to effectively communicate in foreign languages. Hell, I have trouble even communicating in English. Wouldn't I look like a fraud if I tout myself as someone who loved learning new languages and then it is revealed that I actually can't speak any of them very well at all? Unfortunately it seems most things I am interested in would require some cognitive ability. It would really help if I could know my limits, but it isn't very easy to determine something like that. And the problem is people are so harsh and judgemental. If you present yourself as incompetent at things you do, people judge as an all around incompetent person. People seem to put you into one of two categories: competent people and incompetent people. I do not want to be put into the latter category, because I think that is what limits my ability to be socially valued and to score desirable dating partners.

Shadix, you make such black/white statement that aren't true! What people? How do you know? Nobody else thinks about these things like you are obsessed with them.

Everyone is competent sometimes or with some things, and incompetent with others.

My son has been greatly helped by being diagnosed. He has received such great support at school, with speech therapy and emotional control. He's been taught to meditate and self soothe and gain composure when under stress. He's learned how to reframe thoughts and better read social cues. He's made so much progress over the years and he never fails to impress and inspire me with his unique outlook. He will not turn the head of every girl but the girl whose head he does turn will be lucky because he's a happy, sweet, compassionate, funny, charming, fun to be around, truly honest and very into maintaining his "honor". He is a gentleman and he has pride in himself. He hasn't gotten too interested in relationships so I have no idea what will happen when that time comes. I'm sure it will be more frustrating for him but he has skills to manage his frustration. I hope you will consider learning some too.

[Erebos]

@ElsaMars, thanku for your post, my youngest is going for his diagnosis at the end of the month and I have been worrying it would be more of a hinderance than a help. He too has buckets of charm and a very sweet nature especially to those younger than him. He also has a wonderful rapport with those older than him but really struggles with his peer group.
It is encouraging to hear a positive result from someone being diagnosed when I have heard so many negative outcomes.

[Talthybius]

Surely, some high functioning autism/Aspergers people are charming. But most mothers thing of their sons of of charismatic. If anyone likes them, it is their mothers (except for mine, who was incapable of showing motherly love when she was 'normal' and now is a ghost of the person she was).

When you as a man become infatuated with a woman, with or without Aspergers and maybe insecure about your charisma, it doesn't matter what mothers, friends of mothers, old ladies, or any other woman things; the only thing that counts for your ego and self-confidence is what that one girl things.

I recognize some of myself in what ElsaMars tells us about her sons. But I really wonder if the girls ElsaMars's son runs into really see what ElsaMars says.

In part, it is about selling yourself. But when you pride yourself in being modest, inconspicuous, polite and not polarizing or provocative, do people really notice you? My weakest point must have been selling myself to others. For a long time, I was completely indifferent to selling myself to others. Probably partly because I, from a very young child, recognized I was bad at it. People for sure don't gravitate to what they cannot see, even if they would like it if they could.

He is my step son. His mother left him when he was 3 1/2 and I've had him ever since. He was non verbal except ma and pa for awhile. But he and my son who is 5 developed a secret language or more like my 5 year old could understand my step sons personal language which was kind of a sweet thing to watch. I'm objective and my step son is very objectively charming. People really like him. He won't turn the head of every girl as I stated but he will find one if he ever becomes interested. He will be 17 in less than 2 weeks and is not at all interested. But that could change and we will see what happens. He may never care, not everyone does

I worry my son could be taken advantage of by the wrong kind of girl or used. But he's a smart kid with strong ideals so I think he can handle himself. The world is scary though. My son was diagnosed through the school and started receiving help in kindergarten. We had him diagnosed by a medical doctor but they said they really can't do anything. I think my son being diagnosed so early and so much help received swiftly really helped him grow in intellect, social abilities and character. We are hoping we can find some help for him through college soon too.

They have group get together and meet ups for people with autism and I signed my son up for one and thought he might even meet a special friend there but he was not at all interested in attending. He said he would keep it in mind for the future though.

[divine1966]

There is a saying "when you know a person with autism, you know a person with autism". Meaning every person with ASD is different and if you know one, you can't assume how others are . Some are very social and outgoing and some are reserved, some have hard time with communication and some don't. Etc etc that's is what I do for a living. I've met many many people with ASD in the course of my career. I've never met two they were alike. I also highly recommend do not self diagnose

Each person with any illness or anomalies will typically present differently and have unique challenges. Sometimes they show people on TV with aspergers and they in no way shape or form represent my son. My son has a pretty classic case but he LOVES hugs and we've taught him to have eye contact and be more comfortable with it. Without all the specialized care he received when younger I think he would be presenting much differently now. Getting help is never a bad thing if you need it.

Working with people who have aspergers does require a great deal of patience and an ability to see a situation through different lenses. Many people simply cannot connect with people on the spectrum. Educating yourself on how to see things in less black and white extremes is just good advise for anyone. Good luck.

[Cyllya]

I'm also self-diagnosed with Asperger's, and people seem to like me well enough.

In fact, I was occasionally somewhat surprised by the amount of charisma I seem to have. People often seem biased in my favor.

Granted, I'm female. Also, my hobbies and interests have coincidentally led to me getting what amounts to tons and tons of social skills training. I had more autism-like traits when I was a kid. Nowadays, my main social problem is that I make a bad first impression with many people. Many of them like me later. (I once had someone tell me, "I used to think you were a snob, but it turns out you're actually nice!!" In retrospect, it occurred to me that a lot of people seem to feel that way, although most are too reserved to say it.)

In another topic of yours, I noticed you made a lot of assertions about other people's thoughts and opinions, including the sorts of things they wouldn't tell you. I thought that was pretty weird. How the heck do you know this stuff? Especially considering that you have diagnosed yourself with a condition that usually entails difficulty figuring out other people's unspoken feelings! I mean, guessing at other people's thoughts and opinions is definitely good (necessary); the weird part was how confident you were in your guess.

Originally Posted by Talthybius

I don't have a diagnosis. I talked with a psychologist and she suggested to me to forward me to a psychiatrist, who can make a diagnosis. I decided not to.

In the USA at least, autism diagnosis seems to be considered more of a "psychologist" thing. Technically, any licensed mental health provider is allowed to make a diagnosis, but a lot of time-consuming (and therefore expensive) neuropsychological tests (which are copyrighted to the creator, and therefore expensive) are considered the "correct" way to go about it. (And if you're over 18, it's probably not covered by your insurance.) (And if you need a second opinion, that means paying double.) (And your parents have to cooperate, even if you're an adult. This is mostly so they can answer questions about your childhood, but there's also the fact that, if you're able to initiate the appointment or fill out any paperwork yourself, even if it's difficult and you had to ask a bunch of questions, the evaluator is likely to consider that evidence that you aren't autistic.)

Originally Posted by Shadix

Has your high functioning autism diagnosis helped in any way? My therapist basically said that the only thing she would do for mild autism is social skills training, and she would be doing that with me anyways, since I have social anxiety. So there wouldn't be much point in a diagnosis.

I might agree with your therapist depending on what she means by social skills training. If she's giving you the same "social skills training" that she gives neurotypical people who have social anxiety, that's bad.

If you have "autistic traits," the therapy needs to keep that in mind. Actually, it needs to keep in mind your actual impairments regardless of your diagnostic status. (It's quite possible to have all sorts of autism-related problems but not actually be impaired enough to be diagnosed with autism, in the evaluator's opinion. Even if you do end up being diagnosed with ASD, there are surely some autism-typical traits you do not have.)

My recommendation: get checked for ADHD. You wouldn't guess it from looking at the diagnostic criteria, but if you read about the experiences of adults with ADHD versus mild ASD (Asperger's), they are actually incredibly similar. I've started considering them the same condition. The difference is that ADHD will get you access to legit treatment while ASD does not! (Also, as an adult, it's probably easier to get an ADHD diagnosis. There are some clinicians who want you to do the super-expensive neuropsych testing, but those tests aren't even scientifically validated for diagnosing ADHD. Just find a psychiatrist who knows better.)

The stimulant medication prescribed for ADHD mainly helps with executive functioning (which is probably what your "cognitive slowness" is) but it also seems to help with "social skills" too. This is probably because executive dysfunction will naturally make socializing/communicating more difficult than it should be, but I'm not sure that's the whole explanation.

If you present yourself as incompetent at things you do, people judge as an all around incompetent person. People seem to put you into one of two categories: competent people and incompetent people. I do not want to be put into the latter category, because I think that is what limits my ability to be socially valued and to score desirable dating partners.

I feel like most people see competent-incompetent as a spectrum (not two distinct categories), and while they do expect a given person to have skills all over that spectrum, they also expect you to have many core skills be around one point. However, most people are able to adapt if you don't fit that expectation.

Eh, not sure if it makes sense to explain it like that, but... as someone with an odd set of strengths and weaknesses, I have run into people getting surprised because some skill of mine is on a different level than they expected based on some other skill. But, it's not the end of the world. They get over it.

When you as a man become infatuated with a woman, with or without Aspergers and maybe insecure about your charisma, it doesn't matter what mothers, friends of mothers, old ladies, or any other woman things; the only thing that counts for your ego and self-confidence is what that one girl things.

There's a reason they say dating is a numbers game (and on a related note, why they say you need to avoid the "friend zone"). It's because most people aren't interested in you, or are otherwise unsuitable. That applies even for people who are charming and don't have any communication-impairing neurological quirks. Another individual's degree of interest in you is related to their tastes, opinions, needs, perceptions, and all sorts of other things that don't have anything to do with you. So you should limit how much impact one person's opinion affects your self-perception.

Of course it makes sense to feel sad, unconfident, and various other negative emotions if someone you're infatuated with is not interested in you. But those are feelings. You shouldn't let feelings determine your perception of reality; feelings are just too dumb for that. (The CBT philosophy calls this emotional reasoning, e.g. deciding that airplanes are a particularly dangerous mode of travel just because you feel fearful of riding in airplanes.)

Social problems are a lot more than just convincing one person to be your romantic partner--but in those other situations, it does matter what people other than single women in your age group think. (Actually, now that I think of it, other people's opinion may also play a role in convincing an individual to be your romantic partner... though it's hopefully fairly minor.)

Originally Posted by Talthybius

Oh, come on.

Was this necessary?

[Cyllya]

Originally Posted by ennui.

Was this necessary?

Probably about as necessary as your response to it.



But really, I would expect most autistic people to find the opening post a bit offensive, so I'm sympathetic to someone acting offended.

[leejosepho]

Originally Posted by Cyllya

... I would expect most autistic people to find the opening post a bit offensive, so I'm sympathetic to someone acting offended.

I can understand why some might be, but I was not and there is certainly nothing wrong with a bit of candor in relation to one's actual knowledge while asking questions.

Originally Posted by Shadix

If I am [on the spectrum], does it mean I am doomed to forever being somewhat socially awkward and there is no point in trying to be more charismatic and pleasant?

I have had to learn to do some things mechanically where a typical neurotypical person might do the same thing quite naturally and even with no thought required, but even then we still do not have to be stuck with appearing robotic.

Originally Posted by Shadix

Are people with Aspergers just not wired to be charismatic and pleasant in social situations?

I no longer concern myself with whatever I might *not* be wired to do naturally. Instead, I look for ways to make use of whatever I *do* have while working at improving my interactions with others.

Originally Posted by Shadix

... I feel like I have nothing to make up for my social awkwardness.

You have the ability to ask questions and ponder answers and then ask for tips and/or help related to application...and there is where it can all begin for you.

[Talthybius]

Originally Posted by ennui.

Was this necessary?

Absolutely. And he should have replied to it. This wasn't his first post.

[Erebos]

What Cyllya said. Also like ElsaMars my youngest son, I suspect has Aspergers/ADD, we are attending diagnosis tomorrow after years of struggling with the system. Whilst he struggles with his peer group he has a major charm offensive with those older or younger than himself. "Instantly adorable in a quirky kinda way."
I also write collaboratively with someone who is high functioning, with ADHD and fybromialga, and he is quite possibly one of the most gifted libertine/romance authors I have met. His work can quiet literally reduce me to tears or have me crying out for more in the space of a page or two.
Having spoken to him on Skype also I realise that he has that same intensity in conversation so I can understand how people might find that difficult to filter until they know him better and he relaxes. Then his obvious charm and charisma shines through.

@Shad every thread I see you post gets a tin of replie, so I don't think gaining attention or charisma is your problem, I suspect your every bit as charismatic as you need to be, if only you stopped focusing on your brother and every perceived (or genuine slight) life is too short Hun.