Re: Avatars

Heidu, I'm glad that you are okay with the way your mother sees you... or doesn't. The reason I said what I did is because I didn't think I had issues with my mother when she passed. It wasn't a week after she'd passed that the panic attacks and depression started. I was told later it was all those unresolved issues that touched it off. The anger I felt for quite some months after I found out had to be worked through. I don't feel that anger towards her any more. Maybe it's a deep regret, maybe it's the child that didn't get validation that is weeping inconsolably because of it. However, it's such a deep rooted belief? ... need? ... that I don't trust others when they point out my qualities. Heck! It's taken me years to accept some good things that I have proven to myself about myself!

But then... that's another story.

Thanks so much for sharing your personal strength. I'm sure there's something I can learn from it.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

{{{{{{{{{{Somewhere,}}}}}}}}}}}} I see we are basically on the same page and also, have some similarities in our background.

I'm with you on the crying child needing attention and nurturing. The harder you tried to make him go away, the louder he cried.

I'm with you on feeling like a failure although I never felt like a burden to my mom. She was always too concerned about hermom. My problem now is believing that my mother was right. I'm a failure and too stupid to accomplish anything good. I argue a lot with that voice that says I'm stupid. I'm not!

Like I said before, my mom was born with a physical disability, but she didn't let it stop her from meeting her responsibilities head on. She had been a teacher before we moved to the states, yet there were years that she had to work in the blue jean factories where they had quotas. She not only met her quotas but surpassed them. Her co-workers got mad at her because an old, crippled woman was making them look bad. I remember her hands that were usually soft as silk, being stained blue for the heavy canvas jeans used to made of, her fingers split and bleeding from doing work she wasn't used to. I admire her strength and her faith in God. I haven't been able to accomplish that myself... to be self-sufficient.

You're right. This isn't necessarily a fight we have before us. It's more an acknowledgement that there is some hard work we have before us. I, and maybe you, too, have a child we need to reparent and nurture, to give validation to, to tell that it's alright to be a playful child and give permissions that weren't given before but are really okay. And we, as proper parents have to set limits, give a healthy amount of whatever that child is missing.

So why is it so easy to say and so damnably hard to do???

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

That's a good question, septmorn... I am pondering...

Best,
Toni

[i] What our mind can conceive and believe, it will achieve.

I thought so myself, Hey_Hey. I'm pondering right along with you. If you come up with anything, let me know, ok?

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

September,
I may very well need your help in the future when I lose my mom. I know it will be hard and I know I will go thru a stage of knowing it's over and the chance that it could be better is over. That will be hard to swallow. I do so wish it was different. I see other people with thier moms and I think, "why can't I have that?" but I know I never will. Acceptance. It's what I have to do now and what I will need to do then.
Did you ask me somewhere how old I was or did I dream it?
Well, I'm 34, so now you know either way.
Heidu

Every path to a new understanding begins in confusion- Mason Cooley

Hi SeptMorn,

Reading Itlvt's posts triggered my thoughts on this question. I don't know what I said in my post to ltlvt makes any sense, I just think it's a tough question... I look forward in further discussion with you, and others are more than welcome to join, of course

((((((((sept Morn)))))))))))))

Best,
Toni

[i] What our mind can conceive and believe, it will achieve.

September,
I also forgot to tell you that I have been working on my problems with my mother for a long time, easily 10 years and it has been the just the last few that I have really been able to accept it.
Heidu

Every path to a new understanding begins in confusion- Mason Cooley

Toni, who knows what triggers thoughts in our minds sometimes, but whatever it is, it's because maybe we need to work on it. Heather's "What is love" is what got my dragon going and it was the last thing I expected.

Heidu, good for you! I'm sorry I stuck my foot in my mouth. I just get so passionate about some things! You more than likely won't need my help when the time comes, but please know that if you do, I'm here.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

You didn't stick your foot in your mouth September, not at all. Please don't feel that way!!
Hope your day is good.
Heidu

Every path to a new understanding begins in confusion- Mason Cooley

<center>{{{{{{{{Heidu}}}}}}}}}</center>

I'm not feeling bad, honestly, I'm not. Just saying that I spoke without knowing all the particulars, that's all. I'm not perfect, just human. LOL All is well.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

September...

Shortly after I posted before I had an insight, but haven't been able to get back to this until now....

So plunging ahead..... While still a fledgling dragon, the seperation between he and I was hardly noticeable.... If you looked closely, he was just a few negative thoughts mixed with the usual, average thoughts any boy might have... as the negative experiences mounted, the dragon becomes more defined, feelings that can't be understood are swallowed up by the dragon. But he doesn't become a dragon until that first outburst.... the one that first asks... why me? Maybe it was something done that expressed the hurt that had built up.... something that caused a regret... At that instant, the dragon is born... For the first time we recognize an ugly side of ourself, something we don't feel congruent with, some part of us we don't want to posess... we react in horror?, panic?, surprise?, fear?, guilt?, anger?... whatever the response, the line is drawn..... There is suddenly "good me" and another.. "something". Now we begin to heal ourselves, purge ourselves, seperate our selves..... from ourselves. The dragon becomes something we must cure.. we must exorcise.. we must change.. we must stop.. we don't want it to be a part of us... it's power is unpredictable... We begin to build a fortress in our mind, our heart... against the dragon... we become two selves... good me/bad me. We immerse ourself in self help, wandering, wondering, seeking, looking for "the answers".. the division grows... as good me gets stronger.. the alter ego/ dragon keeps pace with it... as the dragone gets stronger, we work more and more desperatly to be better, purer... it's important to us our self image be good, something we can be proud of, show our mother, our children, the minister, the boss... we hide the dark side.. we deny the dark side, we fight the dark side.. we're confused.. we lost track.. the dragon is still us... the dragon is the pain we felt when we were hurt.. the one who wants to cry out life is not fair.. cry out that he's misunderstood.. cry out that he's killing himself.. crys that others are killing him... cry out he's too weak to bear this.. crys that he can't go on like this anymore.... good me wants him to dissolve.. stop hurting good me.. leave good me alone... good me can't understand where anger, this dark thing, this dark cloud, this pain.... good me works harder and harder to become better and better, but dragon is always right there, thwarting everything good me does... good me feels despair, good me needs to escape... good me is holding his head, running thru alleys in the night... good me puts on faces.... he doesn't want others to know, but he's dying.....

The dragon begins to have spines, things that when touched, anger him... triggers... He's angry from being unheard, unanswered, unappreciated (yes unappreciated), he demands attention, he WILL be heard.... his pet peeves become harder, louder, furious.. good me puts him in a box.. tries to wall him in.. learns to avoid his triggers.... sometimes, unaware, he inflicts a wound on dragon.. dragon roars to life... ready to devour, destroy the things that made him.. but his rage is incredible... all fight.. all vengence, all anger... He has no mind... only emotion, pain, anger, frustration, fury... He needs our help to attack his attackers.. his creators.... things like cruelty, hatred, exploitation, greed, aggression, violence, abuse, manipulation... all the crimes on good me / on society / on civilization / on humanity .... He need a mind to approach these things with aim, constructively.... not with the same mindlessness those things were perpetrated on him with ... blind fury will not solve the problems .... a careful warrior is wise not to become that which he fights ... there is a way..... in an atmosphere of good.. good prevails...

I'm posting this at the risk of sounding completely insane... but the truth (for me) is in there......

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

There is ALOT in what you said. I had to laugh when you ended with "I'm posting this at the risk of sounding completely insane"
I really like the way you are able to analyze things and then find a way to explan it.
You have alot of heart, Nowhere.
I'm gonna read this again.
Heidu

"Rabbit's clever," said Pooh thoughtfully.
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit's clever."
"And he has a Brain."
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit has a Brain."
There was a long silence.
"I suppose," said Pooh, "that that's why he never understands anything."

I am sitting here in awe reading your posts back and forth with each other. I was so worried that I had opened a can of worms with the real love post and I am hoping that I didn't

You guys amaze me and I am enjoying this as well as feeling so proud of all that you are doing to recover.

{{{{{{{{{{Darrel Tomi Heidu Toni }}}}}}}}}}}}}} great stuff here.


Heather

Bumper sticker: "Wherever I go, there I am"

I hold a great deal of "therapeutic" methods in suspicion for reasons you hint at. Too many treatments (meds, behavior modification, positive thinking, etc) are ways to put the dragon in a "safe" place, out of sight and out of mind. The dragon is calmed and restrained but remains in waiting for the door to crack open and a chance to roar. The dragon can be denied, even forgotten for a time, but it is still there and its strength remains, or grows. A therapeutic treatment plan does not care that the dragon remains. It has a trajectory, a time line of events, with a planned outcome of a quiescent dragon defining success and end of treatment. If you have a therapist who is paid by an HMO ask them about the approved treatment plan for your diagnosis. They have one whether they like it or not. It is their bread and butter. Your therapist may, or may not, care about your caged dragon. Your insurance company certainly does not.

So what to do? For me, locking my dragon in with meds for the past 30+ years was ok until very recently. It then started to become and ethical and philosophical problem. This dragon is me, too. It's a bastard, but it is a part of my life. Do I really want to finish up the second half of life continuously stomping on it? Would "victory" be true? Would I die complete?

I stopped all meds and the dragon roared frightenly for weeks. I climbed into its box and got a good look at it. It is a complicated beast, and I am getting to like it, as a parent who loves a difficult child. It is calming down now, and strangely I am missing the frequent blasts of its burning breath.

The story is unfinished....

I agree Kv, drugs are necessary for some but for some of us it is just a bandade that fools us into thinking we have control. Sometimes we have to accept things the way they are. Situations like dealing with my mother. It used to just drive me insane but when I was finally able to accept that it wouldn't change and that I had no control over it my life got so much better. Sometimes of course it gets to me but after a short while I can remind myself and then it's ok again.
I was taking meds for awhile and they did help me to get out of a very deep depression. They helped me and served a purpose but they also covered up things I needed to deal with. When I stopped taking them it was a little tough. I found myself really irritable and I had a twitch in my eye. BUT I was also able to really feel and therefore DEAL with some issues that just seemed to fall into the fuzzy hole on the meds. I am better off for it.
For me it was meds helping to get me balanced so I was able to think clearly but I couldn't have really dealt with much had I not stopped taking them. I believe it is so important to feel.
I have stopped myself from feeling so much and now I am slowly allowing myself to do that to deal with issues one by one.
Coming here and meeting such great people has helped me alot because I feel like I can care, I can communicate which is so important to me and I also can truely be myself and say what I am feeling. I really needed that. It's so great to be able to "talk" to such bright, witty, fun and funny people.
The story is always unfinished and the beauty is we are our own author!!!!
Heidu
Heidu

"Rabbit's clever," said Pooh thoughtfully.
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit's clever."
"And he has a Brain."
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit has a Brain."
There was a long silence.
"I suppose," said Pooh, "that that's why he never understands anything."

{{{{Somewhere}}}} I missed you yesterday! So good to see you back.

Boy, did you say a mouthful! I've read it through my perspective and only found a few things that I can relate to. Your insight is loaded! Give me a chance to re-read it and absorb some more.

I see my "foe" more as a wounded, angry child. Haven't quite figured out where the dragon lies.. maybe it's the child's feelings that keep me from fully behaving like a responsible adult... therefore the dragon. Just on the surface, without giving it much introspection... aaaah! I lost my thought! Something within me is dealing with the problem... I find it very difficult to stay on track. All day Tuesday I felt short periods of "disconnection" with my surroundings. Obviously, my subconscious hurts and doesn't want to deal with it. But we will!

My adult is so enjoying what we are doing here!! It's not only stimulating but somewhere deep inside, the dragon/child knows help is coming.

I'm going to have a busy day today so if I don't get back till tonight, you'll know why. But like Arnold says "I'll be bahck!" lol

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

{{{{{{{{Heather}}}}}}}} Whether it was a can of worms or not isn't what's important. What is important is that it was a much needed catalyst. I feel like I was just sitting here not doing anything worthwhile and knowing that I have something I need to work on to become a better functioning woman. You know how I feel that nothing is a "coincidence" as we know the meaning of the word. Everything happens at the right time for a good reason. Outter stimluli "coinsides" with our needs. It comes along side us and opens a door, gives us a nudge in the right direction and gives the opportunity for growth. The dynamics were already there between Darrel and I but we needed you to come along and make that post to give us a proper direction. Consider yourself a very important part of a great puzzle! This is only a part of the reason you and I were brought together.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Speaking strictly for myself, it was necessary for me to find the proper therapist to unearth all my monsters. Otherwise, I would still be living my blind, dysfunctional life. It was also very necessary that I take medications to control my anxiety and dispell the deep depression that so distorted my thinking and my perspective.

It psycho-babbel, "Depression is anger turned inward." I found that to be painfully true. It's amazing how differently I viewed things when I came out of that dark hole! Many problems seem more workable and I am able to function almost normally. I couldn't even do the simple things. I didn't have the energy nor the inclination. When you sit on the edge of your bed rocking back and forth because your bladder is about to burst and can't find the will to get up and go to the bathroom, you're not much more than a vegetable! I had running comentaries with myself that never got me anywhere because I didn't see things as they truly were, but as my sick dragon told me they were. I found him to be quite a liar!

(Getting off my soap box and sliding it under the desk. )

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Wow, how very accurate a description of inner turmoil.

That was really great Nowhere, ty.

Mary Alice

Addendum: I do think the various therapies do have their place as tools to contain crisis and help re-direct negative momentum. My problem is when they become the "cure".

Bumper sticker: Wherever you go, there you are

September... sorry, I've been pretty scrambled lately..

Of course we will see this from our own perspectives... that's why I left a lot of my personal details out intentionally, but the outline is what appears to matter... how did the dragon come to be? How did it grow? What is he/she about? What does it want? How can we help it/ourselves? What will it take to reintegrate with it? What can we learn from it? How can we respond to it's demands constructively?

The answers are coming to me even now... I'll wait til I feel I understand a little better before I try to answer.... Maybe you have some ideas? Or anyone else?

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

((((((((((((Heidu))))))))))

Thanks for listening... I was "explorative writing" this... so if it doesn't seem well written, its cause its a lot of fragmented thoughts running together... but thank you Hope you're having a good day.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

((((((((((((( Heather )))))))))))

I very much agree with September.. sometimes these cans need to be opened because there is something to learn .....

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

((((((((((handshake)))))))) kvinneakt

I think you made a great point here.... meds, etc can become escapism.... I also agree with Sept. sometimes we need guidance.... both valid and valuable thank you

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

"The story is always unfinished" beautiful....

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius