Re: Avatars

Forgiveness doesn't mean you keep giving someone more chances to hurt you, or anyone else. Dwelling on it isn't good for us - we have to move on - but hopefully we can learn something and be smarter and stronger for it, and if we forget, how can we grow?

<font color=red>"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." -Harriet Braiker</font color=red>

But how do we forgive and not forget... It was easier to block it out
of my mind.... of course that just hurt me I know but remembering
seeems to hurt me now,,,,

Bevers

Nowhere how do you get to the forgiveness stage?

I like the idea of the imagery, can you give me more info on how to
do this?

Bevers

Good point Tomi. I think a better word instead of forget, is release.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Maybe forgiving and remembering is what we're looking for. Remembering the lessons, releasing the pain, forgiving the aggressor.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

I think forgiveness might be easier for me than understanding the lesson. Compassion is something many depressed people seem blessed with. Isn't it a fine line between compassion and forgiveness? As Tomi stated above, her mother was taught what she was taught by her mother, who was possibly taught by her mother or some other significant person in her life.

I think we can consider that the life we live now, with furnaces, washer / dryers, telephones, etc... is a much easier life than our ancestors were forced to survive. Changing times can change attitudes, personalities, behaviour. Maybe our generation is at a point of crossing the lines between hard survivor mentality and allows us to spend more time thinking of ways to be kinder and more courteous because our comfort level is much higher than the past. Many old ideologies are dying by the way. We find ourselves in a transition of behaviour, expectations, thought processes, etc... We could consider that only two generations ago, a different attitude was not only normal, but even necessary for survival. Crying or complaining wasted precious time and people weren't granted understanding as easily. Now we've begun to consider the individual as more of a living, feeling person than in the past. Maybe the "toughness" some of our ancestors exhibited kept the food on the table, the wood chopped, and it was necessary to be tough. Not exactly our situation in the nuclear age.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

{{{{{{{{Wendy}}}}}}}}} I had basically the same experiences in school, not only the one where the teacher smacked me with a ruler, but everything else you mention, too. Like Darrel said previously, I was a "class-B" person.

I chose that one example because it was so classic of everything else. It enveloped all my other experiences. Darrel is right in that people are seen more as living, feeling beings now than when we were growing up; and I have more than just a few years on you two.

Even now, though, adults aren't aware of the many ways they can scar the character of a child. I see it in my own kids and I see it in public places; the way parents talk to their kids. I heard a woman tell her little boy about four "You go and go and go and never shut up! SHUT UP, ALREADY!!" He didn't cry, but I'll bet you dollars to donuts he internalized it!

Maybe I have lumped together all the experiences that you speak of. I don't necessarily resent the various people. I resent the time that I lost being angry, defensive, unmotivated, withdrawn, thought of as stuck-up while all the time I was shy and afraid to speak for fear I'd be laughed at or ridiculed; all the time I didn't make friends because people like me weren't accepted in the "in crowd."

My two examples of "forgiveness." You all tell me if that's what it is... or not.

In reference to what I posted earlier on the subject. I spoke to the youth minister of the church we went to back then about a lie that my ex-mother-in-law told my daughter. She told her that when she was a baby, I would stick her tongue with a needle when she cried, or I would clip a clothes pin to her tongue. It wasn't true and my daughter didn't believe her, but it hurt me that she would lie about me and in the process could have shaken my daughter's faith in me.

My daughter was in her teens at the time so I didn't feel quite right telling her she wasn't allowed to visit her anymore but I sure would have, had she been younger. My ex mil and I had had our rough times at the beginning but we had grown close and pretty fond of each other so I felt I needed resolution to the problem. The youth minister told me I could forgive my ex mil but it would be in my daughter's best interest if I didn't forget. My responsibility was to protect my daughter. I've been divorced from my daugher's dad for thirty years. I've had another wonderful mil but I still call my ex mil "Mom" and mean it.

The other example of what may be forgiveness is my mother's mom. She hurt me in more ways that just the sexual abuse. She manipulated my mom until my dad left her. She robbed me of my father. She didn't allow my four half-syblings to move in with us. She robbed me of my syblings and a relationship with them. She controlled my mother so thoroughly that my mother put her in first place above her husband and her child. Even after she died, she still controlled my mom through fear. She had told my mom that after she died, she was coming back to get my mom.

What I did was make up my mind that what she had done to me wasn't going to determine how I lived my life. I began by refusing to share her name. I changed the name that's on my birth certificate. Sometimes I catch myself doing things that she did, like saving seeds off the flowers I have. It's my choice to save the seeds. I'm not doing it because I thought "She saved the seeds. I should, too." or "Oh, gee. I'm saving seeds like she did. Oh YUK! Throw them away and get new plants next year!" Unfortunately, the only thing I can't shed is the illness she cursed me with; depression and anxiety. But it won't control my life like it did hers! I won't use it to manipulate others! If she was still alive today, one thing is for certain, my grandkids wouldn't go around her!!



<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still in you.</font color=blue>

Darrel, if you don't mind, I'm going to quote you to Jerry. "Changing times change behavior and attitudes." We're not nomads on running on survival instinct any more!

Why didn't I think of that? hehe


<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still in you.</font color=blue>

Thanks , something to ponder about....
You have good insight.....

I will keep that in mind as a progress through this challenging time.


Bevers

(((((((((((( Tomi )))))))))))

You raise some good points, since it seems something we all might share, let's spend some time on them if we can, ok?

I resent the time that I lost being angry, defensive, unmotivated, withdrawn, thought of as stuck-up while all the time I was shy and afraid to speak for fear I'd be laughed at or ridiculed;

Angry: I remember now how back then, whenever she and I would argue, I could never remember exactly what was said by either side aftwerwards. Just a huge jumble of anger and pain. It never affected my other relationships though. Later, when I grew older and her "lessons" came to fruition, the anger did spread outward to encompass a wide range of subjects, some of which include the "in-crowd" and every accessory attached to them which would also include almost all of "pop" culture for any given period. I then began to blame and feel anger towards the machine that drove the culture, movies, music, advertising, news media, and even freedom itself came under fire when I began to believe the mass public was incapable of handling such a huge responsibility.

Defensive: Naturally I had to defend my opinions and feelings. I looked for every pessimistic viewpoint to support my anger. Surprisingly, I find I'm not alone with my criticism and I wonder if I've accidentally joined a movement for reform. On a personal level, it was very hard to defend my feelings when they were so bottled up, even I couldn't explain them. It has become considerably easier since I've empowered myself to have the same rights as anyone to feel good about who I am.

Unmotivated / Withdrawn: I was motivated, but some type of block kept me from explaining myself, to others and even to myself. I found withdrawal my only safe zone. I knew some were percieving me as stuck up, but I preferred them to think that than what I really felt about myself.

Shy / Afraid: Terrorized is more accurate.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Is a hug okay? (((((( Bevers ))))))

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

A hug is always okay Nowheretorun.... thanks
{{{{{{{{{ hug to you to }}}}}}}}}}}


Bevers

Darrel, I'm answering your post of yesterday: "Compassion is something many depressed people seem blessed with. Isn't it a fine line between compassion and forgiveness?"

Recently, I have the notion that I'm not nearly as compassionate as I used to be. I'm not sure if it's learning the difference between sympathy and empathy, or the practiced theory of taking care of myself first so that I can give to others is what's changed my perspective towards others.

The change in me hasn't been exactly welcome, neither am I totally comfortable with it. My mother always looked down on people that wanted to be her friend. She didn't have any patience or understand for those that weren't as mentally capable as she. I'd hate to think that the same thing is happening to me. I hated it in her, especially when she had drilled it into my head that "love, no matter what form it takes, should never be turned down." As far as I can tell, she didn't live up to that statement.

Anyway, this isn't about her. It started out to be about what I perceive to be my lack of compassion.

Your answers (whoever reads this) would certainly be useful and appreciated. Maybe I can make up my mind as to whether my heart is hardening or not.



<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still in you.</font color=blue>

{{{{{{{{{Tomi}}}}}}}}}

I had to jump in here....your heart hardening? Did I read that right? I have known you for almost a year now and to tell you the truth...if anything, I noticed that your heart is more open than it was when I first met you. You have more compassion than you give yourself credit for. You have changed and it is for the better....not like you were a meanie when I first met you ....but you have softened in a nice way.

Give yourself some credit ok hun? You deserve it for all of the hard work you are doing.


Heather

"The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change and the REALIST adjusts his sails." ~~~author unknown

{{{{{{{{{{{{Heather}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank you, Hun. So maybe you think it might be that I've learned the difference between "sympathy" and "empathy"? There was definetly a time when I'd jump into the hole with whomever was having a problem!


<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still in you.</font color=blue>

Hi Tomi and all

According to Oxford English Dictionary:

Compassion:
1. Suffering together with another, participation in suffering; fellow-feeling, sympathy.

2. The feeling or emotion, when a person is moved by the suffering or distress of another, and by the desire to relieve it; pity that inclines one to spare or to succour.

3. Sorrowful emotion, sorrow, grief.

Sympathy:

1. a. A (real or supposed) affinity between certain things, by virtue of which they are similarly or correspondingly affected by the same influence, affect or influence one another (esp. in some occult way), or attract or tend towards each other.

b. Physiol. and Path. A relation between two bodily organs or parts (or between two persons) such that disorder, or any condition, of the one induces a corresponding condition in the other.

2. Agreement, accord, harmony, consonance, concord; agreement in qualities, likeness, conformity, correspondence.

3. a. Conformity of feelings, inclinations, or temperament, which makes persons agreeable to each other; community of feeling; harmony of disposition.

b. The quality or state of being affected by the condition of another with a feeling similar or corresponding to that of the other; the fact or capacity of entering into or sharing the feelings of another or others; fellow-feeling. Also, a feeling or frame of mind evoked by and responsive to some external influence.

c. spec. The quality or state of being thus affected by the suffering or sorrow of another; a feeling of compassion or commiseration.

d. In weakened sense: A favourable attitude of mind towards a party, cause, etc.; disposition to agree or approve.

Empathy:

The power of projecting one's personality into (and so fully comprehending) the object of contemplation.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

According to the definitions, my take is there's little difference between sympathy and compassion.

I think the root emotions branch towards others such as forgiveness and gratefullness, resentment and anger. It's we who decide to take that step or not. As children, we probably weren't aware of all the choices.

It seems the difference between sympathy / compassion and empathy is the matter of degree which we give ourselves to it. Either one can lead to action or inaction. To sympathize or empathize may or may not include an offer of assistance.

Not assisting does not imply apathy. Apathy would be a total avoidance of any emotion and would not include assistance in any measure.

I think we can say from reading your posts that apathy is not a concern for you. As well, symapthy and compassion are obvious.

For me, empathy is a tool. Why use a 20 pound hammer when 10 pounds will do?

We can tell if empathy or sympathy is more appropriate by guaging feedback. In either case, it's important to avoid co-dependancy. I think that might be the line you've tried to define.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Septmorn,,, hold on here, why would you say you are hardening and
loosing your compassion,,,,, We talk constantly either throught this
group or personally, and I have to tell you you are such a good person
with so much compassion, you have a beautiful gift that you share with others.,

I can also say that it is not for you to think you are turning into something you mom was,,,, because you are a different individual than
she was.......

I agree with Heatherm give your self a break..... how many times
have you said that to me.....
I know for a fact that at times I wouldn't have gone on if it wasn't for
you......

Bevers

{{{{{{{{Tomi}}}}}}}}}}}

There are still times that you jump into that hole......only this time you are giving them the boost and the helping hand to get out of it.

I haven't posted anything on here about my nephew and I want you to know how much I appreciate and am so thankful for you being there for me the past few days. I don't know how I would have gotten through this roller coaster if it wasn't for you. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{Tomi}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}


Heather

"The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change and the REALIST adjusts his sails." ~~~author unknown

{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}

Again, terrific insight as always.


Heather

"The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change and the REALIST adjusts his sails." ~~~author unknown

{{{{{{{{{{Bev}}}}}}}}}}}}

You are so deserving of all the support given to you.....I am still amazed as how far you have come yourself. Tomi is wonderful isn't she?


Heather

"The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change and the REALIST adjusts his sails." ~~~author unknown

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Tomi}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I tried to reply to this yesterday, but my computer wouldn't let me.

I don't think that you are like your mother. You don't look down on people - you are warm and accepting, and compassionate.

One thing about depressed people is that we tend to give and give and give, but are not willing to accept anything for ourselves, or give anything to ourselves. You absolutely have to take care of your own needs, because if you don't, you will burn out and will have nothing left for anyone. But when we start to acknowledge our own needs and help ourselves, we perceive that as selfish. It isn't. It's survival, and putting ourselves in a position to be available for those who need us.

You are very intelligent, a good writer, creative, many other things as well, and also compassionate. You help people all the time. It's okay to get your own needs met too. If your heart were hardening, you wouldn't be stopping to wonder if your heart was hardening. Just the fact that you think that way and that you want to have compassion says a lot about you, and how compassionate and giving you are.

I'm glad that you are here, my friend.


<font color=red>"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." -Harriet Braiker</font color=red>

{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}} Here's what Webster's has to say today:

Sympathy: 1 a : an affinity, association, or relationship between persons or things wherein whatever affects one similarly affects the other b : mutual or parallel susceptibility or a condition brought about by it c : unity or harmony in action or effect
2 a : inclination to think or feel alike : emotional or intellectual accord b : feeling of loyalty : tendency to favor or support <republican sympathies>
3 a : the act or capacity of entering into or sharing the feelings or interests of another b : the feeling or mental state brought about by such sensitivity <have sympathy for the poor>
4 : the correlation existing between bodies capable of communicating their vibrational energy to one another through some medium

Empathy: 1 : the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object (or person) so that the object appears to be infused with it
2 : the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also : the capacity for this

Simply put by one of my psychologists: Empathy: "You can feel for the person without jumping into the hole with them."

Having been "in the hole" so much, I'd rather not jump in again for someone else. I can stand on the edge of the hole and offer a hand up. My problem is that sometimes I don't even want to do that! I'm not sure if it's "knowing my limits," or is it a lack of compassion/empathy.



<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still in you.</font color=blue>

<center>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Bevers, Heather, Wendy}}}}}}}}}}}}}}</center>

WOW!! You ladies have blown me away! Darrel has too, by PM. {{{{{Darrel}}}}} I don't know what to say. Yep, I, me, am speechless! (Alright, Heather! I can hear you now! lol) hehe Excuse me while I get my box of tissues...

I'm printing out these posts and reading them over and over again at night before I go to sleep and then whenever I'm feeling unappreciated. I might even show them to my kids!

::: whispers "wooowww..." :::



<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still in you.</font color=blue>

((((( Tomi )))))

I'm totally unqualified to answer your question. Here's something to chew on though...

Jumping into the hole is not the only way we can help others or show compassion.

There are too many ways to provide help to list, so here's only a few I can think of:

1. Be an advocate. Join with others who make activism there way of educating and representing others who suffer with mental illness.

2. Mental Health as a career.

3. Volunteer at a homeless shelter or any like type meeting place for those who suffer.

4. Political support for candidates who have Mental Health agendas.

5. Promote social awareness by explaining the condition to friends, co-workers.

6. Write a book about overcoming depression.

7. Speak your truth. Those who've tried to escape depression need truth, not delusions.

8. Educate yourself.

Just some food for thought......

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius