Re: Avatars

((((((((((((((((( PTD )))))))))))))))

How nice to hear from you "Inner turmoil", yeah, that about sums it up.... why didn't I think of that? *nowhere gives himself a wedgie*

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

hehehehehehehehehehehehe

Look out, Darrel! You're being fuuuuunnny! lol lol I love it!!

I've been scattered myself since we started this thread, but I know why. It's the dragon trying to scare me out of doing what we're doing. It's not going to happen!

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

I'm feeling better about it... it's a nice change Thank you and everyone for all your help.... Feels good to laugh a bit again.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Sitting here, trying to compose my thoughts and nothing is coming. Looking for a place to start and I forget everything I meant to say, so I'll start with a smidgeon of background.

There's a minister I like to listen to on Saturday mornings. He's not your typical tele-evangelist or I wouldn't listen to him. Anyway... the last two Saturdays he's been talking on the parable of the talents. As he explained, back in Jesus' time and before, a talent was a measure of money. A master gave three of his servants some talents before he went away. Two of the servants put the money to use and multiplied their talents, but the last one was afraid to lose the talent so he buried it. When the master came back, he asked them how they had done with the money. The first one had multiplied it by five, the second had doubled it and of course, the last one hadn't done anything with it so the master took it away from him and gave it to the servant that had multiplied his talents five times over. The moral: use it or lose it.

The parable is an old one to me because my mother used to quote it to me about my piano playing. I would much have prefered to be dancing ballet! That particular talent (not sure if I really had it or not! ) I would really loved to use!

As the minister went on with his sermon, he quoted a woman that was speaking of doing what God wants us to do but so many of us are afraid. Her answer was "do it afraid, but do it." That one got me!! I'm afraid to do what I know I need to do! Fear is what keeps us from moving forward. It's what keeps us stuck in our own hole. We can rationalize and give reasons why and convince ourselves that we're right, but deep down, we know that we need to move, we need to do something about our situation.

Something happend yesterday that hurt "my inner child." She was on the verge of tears and having a temper tantrum but I talked to her and she calmed down. We didn't have to have an explosion of any kind.

So... if I was able to give myself positive thoughts and sooth my hurt and dissapointment... and it worked! ... then I can start giving myself "I AM" statements like I AM capable. I AM intelligent. I AM gifted with the written word. I've been told enough! It's time I started internalizing it! Not only that, but taking small, baby steps toward accomplishing some of my goals. That book isn't going to get published if I don't work on it, for pity's sake!

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Nowhere,
I am so glad you are finding a way to laugh a little. It does the heart good. They say smile when you answer the phone because people can feel that in your voice. I think a smile or laugh comes across in our writing too.
:O)
Heidu

Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending.
~ Carl Bard ~

September,
What a nice post to read from you!!
First I will say that my mom made me take piano lessons and I HATED it. She wanted to play piano of course but never got the chance when she was young so....it was on me.
I am sorry that you got hurt yesterday but I am glad something really good came out of it.
I am looking forward to reading your book. Don't forget us little people when you are a famous published author!!
Heidu

Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending.
~ Carl Bard ~

<center>{{{{{{{{{{Heidu}}}}}}}}}}}</center>

You'll never be "little people" to me!! How could I think of you that way when your words mean so much to me?

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Thanks September that was sweet.
I am going to bed now. Hope the rest of your day is good!!
Heidu

Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending.
~ Carl Bard ~

What a great story... I love parables I can see how our "comfort zone" is like the buried coin. We don't want to lose it... so instead of using it, risking the loss, we protect it and shelter it.. but sadly, we lose so much more because of our fears.... We've been hurt so many times before, we foresee the same experience... sure we protect ourselves, but sticking our neck out is sometimes neccessary to see the better view.. My dragon wants to say "If we lived in a more healthy society, one where effort was as valuable as winning, we wouldn't be so afraid."

It's not simply fears of embarrassment that keep our neck tucked in. A serious financial loss can take life as you know it away in the blink of an eye.. bankruptcy, friends turning thier backs, credibility damage and so forth does in fact make life challenging... sometimes avoiding risk is the best way to go it seems.

Maybe our emotional experiences could be compared to a bad investment on Wall Street. Not enough information, the information was false, we were inexperienced, and as children, our choices were limited. I'm sure many who don't succeed at investing will give up... find another way.. but probably more difficult and less quick.

Have we done the same with our emotional investments? Did we get stung, and pull ourselves out of the market? Bury our coins?

I think one reason it is so hard to apply what we know to be true about healing and feeling good everyday, is those old memories. I was surprised to remember the one about waxing my car, but ask me about what depressed me, it's on the tip of my tongue. The thing I'm always trying to forget... reminding myself to forget... won't go away partly because I'm busy remembering to forget it. I think it won't go away, or be forgotten until there is closure. So we are back at the dragon, aren't we?

I want to clarify something I said above. It's in response to the first of the nine questions I've designed to guide me thru the process of healing the dragon.

How did the dragon come to be?

I feel a need to emphasize that unwittingly, in a way, we harmed ourselves with our initial rush to heal ourselves. I know this will stick in your throat, but hear me out. I forgive myself too, it's natural to clean the wound and apply a bandaid. Our first instant of realization that there was "something wrong" with us was an inner acknowledgement that we were "not right". I don't think we should underestimate the amount of damage done to our self-esteem at this moment. This is the moment in time we looked at ourselves and created the division between who we wanted to be, and this other thing that wanted to share our space. What if.... what if we had looked at this thing in ourselves and merely said.. oh, where does that come from, and rather than treat it like a ugly blotch on our skin, said.... hmmmm... another aspect of me, how should I make use of this new part of myself?

Maybe I'm only speaking for myself. But, the realization that I had an "ugly blotch", caused me to react like I'd just seen the spider of my soul.... It was this division that set me on the course of "healing" which further divided me from an aspect of myself. Does a mother reject her infant because snot runs out it's nose? Or because it has messy diapers? Why then, did I do this to myself? That's another question though.

For me, this is how the dragon came to be.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Darrel, your wonds: "I feel a need to emphasize that unwittingly, in a way, we harmed ourselves with our initial rush to heal ourselves" didn't stick in my throat. It's a foregone conclusion that we rush to, if not heal, protect ourselves or the wound. I don't know how old you were when you were emotionally wounded but I was three and it continued most of my life until about 20 yrs ago. When I was emotionally wounded, I rushed to do what any three year old can do to protect themselves from something they don't understand. They shut it out and/or forget it. As we grow up, we learn different mechanisms that continue to protect us, albeit, not healthy mechanisms because we don't know any better. We don't have a voice to say "Stop it! I don't like what you're doing! What you say wounds my spirit!" Even if we knew the words and said them, we'd get told to shut up! It isn't until we grow up that we learn how to best help ourselves and even then, many times they are erroneous ways until we drag up the courage to seek help.

During therapy, one time, my therapist was nudging me pretty good and it made me mad. I told her "I've been taking care of myself since I was three! I don't need you telling me what to do!" She agreed with me that I had indeed been taking care of myself but she could teach me ways of taking care of myself much better. Yes, we all build defense mechanisms for ourselves when we're in the thick of things. Hopefully, when and IF we realize that they're not working, we look around for something better, something that really works.

Your words: "Our first instant of realization that there was "something wrong" with us was an inner acknowledgement that we were "not right". "

I sure don't remember when I realized that "something was wrong" with me. Maybe I was too young to be able to acknowledge it or remember it, but I can't remember life when I didn't feel "less than, not good enough."

Your words: "I don't think we should underestimate the amount of damage done to our self-esteem at this moment. This is the moment in time we looked at ourselves and created the division between who we wanted to be, and this other thing that wanted to share our space."

I think the real "us" goes into hiding. Either someone tells us we're no good or we internalize their words or actions that way. Just like the children of divorce. They tend to blame themselves for their parents not being able to get along or remain a family. Although there are plenty of times children do get told they are no good. Heck! Even teenagers! My mom's mother used to call me "*****" from behind doors, she whispered it so my mom couldn't hear her but it came out like venom from a viper! After so many times, I thought "Well, hell! If I have the name, I might as well have the game!" Why should I try to be "good" if I was already flawed?

You are so right about the damage! Look at me! At my age, I'm still suffering from the damage done, but I refuse to take 100% of the blame! No way, Babe! I'm only responsible from the time I found out what had happened to me! At least I took the initiative to find out why life wasn't working for me!

Looking back, I've fought several dragons... and beat them all... except this last one. God, let it be the last one!

Alright, already! I'll climb down from my soap box now... teehee

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Darrel, in response to your post of Sept. 4... I came back to it like I said I would.

The difference between the way you express your pain and the way I do seems to be only a matter of how we give a face to it. Yours is a dragon, mine is a wounded child. You see your pain and the way you dealt with it, the dissociating from the part of you that held the pain, the things you did to ease the pain and even to overcome it as a monster, a dragon. I see my pain, etc., as me, the child that was wounded at different ages. The child that took all the abuse and misinformed parenting remained a child... from three to pre-teen. When I became a teen, I started to rebel as is natural, but I had more to rebel against. A cousin, one that had suffered the same abuse I had at the hands of the old crone, told me once that my sense of integrity was God-given and it wasn't to be thwarted. Perhaps that's why I rebelled so much and so well. However, I carried the warps and twists with me into my first marriage. I married a skitzophrenic control freak. When I could take it no longer... because of the abuse to me and my two children, I got out. It took some doing because he wasn't going to let go easily. I later found myself fighting the same fight with my memories of my mom's mother. In hypnosis, I had to shove her off the edge of a cliff, not once but twice. She still tries to haunt me from time to time. I can actually smell her!!

I'm digressing here. The main point I wanted to make was that we see our pain in different forms, but I think it's basically the same process to dispell it or disclaim it or better yet, to be free of it. Because I see it as a wounded child, I need to nurture it and give it the love and acceptance it didn't get "back when." Perhaps you need to meet your dragon face to face and your ammo would be cannon balls, or whatever suits you, of Truth and hit your mark. Forgiveness of yourself would be a key ingredient. I've picked up from your posts that maybe you feel like you inflicted some major damage yourself. I could be wrong.

In my lingo, we both need to reparent that child that screwed things up by trying to protect/heal itself.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Hi September

I don't want to rush with this, so I'm taking my time replying... thinking it over a bit.

I think it's accurate to say that we have put different faces on our pain... not sure that would make in any difference in how to treat it, or discuss it... As we move along each of us can take what applies to us and leave the rest.. no harm, no foul I can think of two reasons I vetoed the inner child label for myself... One, the exposure I've had to it is deeply feminine.. not to say that's wrong... just saying, well, I'm a guy... Two, I need guy terminology... hence, the dragon. Batttles and war and strategy, swords, combat.. you probably get it.... But I don't plan on fighting my dragon... no war, no battle, no blood... My intent is to tame the dragon.

Because he's a part of me, killing him would be killing a part of myself. I can see he has purpose, just doesn't know how to accomplish his goals. I'm going to help him. As I work through the nine questions, his purpose will become more evident. But first things first.

I'm not sure you getting the full meaning of what I'd said about how the dragon came to be. Let's try it this way.... It is the very act of healing ourselves that reinforces the idea that we are ill. Maybe we are not ill. Maybe we only need to adjust our self-image to allow these less attractive traits to co-exist with our better characteristics. Who has ever been perfect?

Your inner child says to you "It's not fair that I was mistreated." The bandaid is "Well, life's not fair, get used to it." Why should we get used to it? Should we allow ourselves to be stepped on and mistreated because "that's life"?

At three, ten, even as adults, we have to abide rules, unfair treatment.... but as adults we believe we should have more power over what can and can't be done to our mind, body and heart. Yet, there still are times we don't have that control... we feel like children without choices, made to accept what we don't like because "that's life." As adults, do we advise ourselves to "get used to it"? I don't believe we should, and I don't believe we ever should have been taught the lesson, to get used to it, as children. As adults, we have the power of proactive response.

There are going to be some differences in how we attack this problem. My issues are not childhood related or the result of overbearing parents. I am able to point a finger directly at the source, and it is still alive and well. I'm hoping that in a general way, we can each find insight in each others statements.

I'm assuming your dragon is your mom's mom. How you heal is unique to you... I hope in answering the nine questions, we individually and together find something we can each use.

I also assume others are reading this post and maybe some unseen person will get something from it. Anyone is welcome to comment or participate.

Question two is: How did the dragon grow?

For me, the dragon was compounded of negative self-thoughts, negative responses to imagined negativity, and negative response to real negativity. Together, these items became larger thru repetition, irrational justification, increasing sensitivity, magnification, and distortion, among others... It took about 20 years before the dragon became something I could no longer control once aroused.

The more I worked to become a smarter, stronger, wholer person, the more I hated those things that fed the dragon. As I began to appreciate virtue on deeper levels, the more I hated non-virtue. The growth of my "positive" side, deepened my hatred for the "negative" side. I was ignorantly grooming the dragon at the same time I was seeking my angels.

The next question is "What is the dragon about?" I hope to be able to convey why I choose to tame the dragon, rather than kill it.

Thank you for accompanying me on this journey... I hope we will each find rewards at the end

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Just when I think I'm understanding what you are saying, I give it back to you and somehow I miss the mark. LOL I still think I understand, though. It's just like the "balance" thing... oh well. I don't mind stretching some, do you? That doesn't mean like in "stretching the truth." It's more like reaching for something that's beyond us for the time being.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Yeah, stretching the way you've used it is something I'm used to... sometimes it's led me on dangerous curves, dead ends.. but it's all too easy to return to where we started

I'm sorry I'm hard to understand.... you're not the only one... I just hoped here was one place I could at least try....

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

No where,
I think I get what you are saying and I find it a very refreshing point of view. You make some very valid points about not accepting things because "that's life"
I think it's important to look at bad things in life and find out what can be done to change them. Maybe it's not changable Then you have to accept that it cannot be changed but even them you hold the power because you chose how you react. But maybe there is something we can do. Maybe it's a simple little thing or maybe it's life altering but in the end the payoff is the same. The point is we must do something.
"It is the very act of healing ourselves that reinforces the idea that we are ill." When you first began sharing this theory with us I was struck. It does make sense to me. A child without one parent or with a physical handicap never knows there is something "wrong" until they are told or see others and realize they are different. At that point they need reassurance that indeed, they are different but not bad, less, ill, etc. It's ok to be different.
I hope I am understanding what you are saying but at the same time know that if not, I am definately getting something from it.
Thanks for sharing,
Heidu



Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending.
~ Carl Bard ~

Yeah, you got it... I think September does too (I didn't mean to insult you sweetie are we okay? I guess I just want to put extra emphasis on the "moment" of inception and the result of the "realization". I know it's taken me down a long road that maybe wasn't even neccessary..

Heidu, I like your handicapped analogy... so true... until they recognize they're different... when we realize we're not like everyone else, that we've had a socially unacceptable response to something, or a parentally unacceptable response, it's as if there's an inner self value equation that we attach a huge minus symbol in front of. It seemed so natural at the time.. maybe we had done it before and gotten past it, but maybe this time, our inner accounting system set off lights and bells. Even now I'm challenged to think of other ways to respond. Instead of a minus, what symbol might change the outcome? Could we tweak "plus" to fit? Maybe draw a circle around the whole equation and remove all the symbols to indicate a "whole" self, no mathmatical factoring, no weighing or self judging. What then do we do with the concept of self-improvement? It's too late to change the past, isn't it?

Sorry for my rambling... it's getting late. Night-night

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Hi Nowhere,
Just thought I'd let you know that I'm following this thread too, and it is interesting. I'm learning a lot. Maybe people see the problems slightly differently. You have your dragon and September has her inner child. I've got my cloud, which seems more like an external influence (and real clouds are and they do make me feel like that), but it is actually an internalized cloud that sometimes takes over my life.

The "realization" concept is interesting too. I was trying to think of when that was for me, and keep going back to when I was about 5 years old. When I got really upset I bit my arm, hard enough that it bled and formed scabs and the marks lasted for 2-3 weeks. My mother was so embarassed about those marks, and I felt bad about it when I noticed that. It was about then that I also started to notice other things like that I was clingy and socially awkward, and in school I got distracted and off-task a lot and the teachers were frustrated with me because I didn't pay attention or finish assignments. It took me a little while to see your point, but now I understand - realizing these differences (and noticing people's reactions to them) was part of the damage.

No, you can't change the past, really, but what you can do is re-write your story and change your perceptions of it.

<font color=blue>Life is filled with tragedy; if you let it overwhelm you, you cannot enjoy life's innocent pleasures. -Robert Heinlein</font color=blue>

Re: "you can't change the past, really, but what you can do is re-write your story and change your perceptions of it."

Is this not the definition of denial and repression?

I prefer to think it better to find the truth, as clear and precise as possible, and find a way to self-acceptance.

Bumper sticker: Wherever you go, there you are

Rapunzel,
You said, "No, you can't change the past, really, but what you can do is re-write your story and change your perceptions of it."
That is a great way to look at it. I always think about going to the old county fair as a kid. It was big, fast, cool, everything tasted good. I culd go every day the week it was going on.
Now going back as an adult I thought it was such a piddly, boring thing complete with the nasty greasy food.
Just like two people can experience the same thing and see it completely different.
Thanks for sharing that. I had forgotten about that aspect.
Heidu

Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending.
~ Carl Bard ~

Interesting, my aunt used exactly those words to a friend of mine who was traumatised by his past. She didn't even acknowledge that I had reason to be traumatised.

I have to agree that is the essence of denial and repression.

Searching for the truth ...
Fuzzy

Kvinneakt, different theorists have defined denial and repression in very different ways. As used by Freud, denial is the coping mechanism in which you refuse to admit the truth of factual information that is threatening to you. Repression is an unconscious process, also a defense mechanism. True repressed memories happen in early childhood and are things that are so threatening that we can't bring them to conscious awareness. (This is a current topic in one of the classes I am taking - Personality Theory - and I am finding that class and this thread to be extremely relevant to each other.) I feel that re-writing your story and changing your perceptions of it is different. You don't deny that things happened, but you look for the good in it - how you were strong enough to get through the problems and be a survivor. Yeah, it's hard, and I tend to rebel against the idea that I could go back and look at my childhood and pull out positive things. But why do we want to dwell on the negative so much? I definitely do it, but my childhood wasn't all bad. Maybe it isn't any less accurate to pull out the good memories and dwell on them instead.

<font color=blue>Life is filled with tragedy; if you let it overwhelm you, you cannot enjoy life's innocent pleasures. -Robert Heinlein</font color=blue>

I see what you mean. I would put that as re-interpreting, not re-writing, but I think we mean the same thing.

Bumper sticker: Wherever you go, there you are

Darrel! You're making me work! I thank you, though. {{{{Darrel}}}} Yes, we are just fine! I think I'm going to quit trying to decipher so minutely what you mean with different words. I've been trying to get inside your head and analyze everything you say, but that's not necessary because, after all... you're a guy! I meant to say "that's a guy thing" last night when I was speaking of the difference in your dragon and my inner child. I also get you preferring to "tame your dragon." It's kindred to me "nurturing my inner child."

I'm going to go through all the posts from today and answer them, although not necessarily to each person. Maybe if I just write down how I interpret them and any insights or clarification to myself. Would that be "my perspective?"

Boy! I already feel the tension building... this is good. I'm "stretching."

1) Stretching: going above and beyond our comfort zone; learning something new, seeing things from a different perspective. It may work, it may not. If we feel it's a mistake, then we learned that idea didn't work and we need to either "tweak" it or do something, maybe in a totally different direction. Either way, we use it as a learning experience.

2) That's life: in my mom's words; "damnable fate!" Nope! No way, no how! I don't accept it! WE are the masters of our own destiny. If we don't like something about ourselves or about our life or how things work out for us, change it!!!!! You may hit "dead ends or dangerous curves," but if you don't try, nothing will change.

a) A golden nugget of wisdom: "I think it's important to look at bad things in life and find out what can be done to change them. Maybe it's not changeable Then you have to accept that it cannot be changed but even the you hold the power because you choose how you react. But maybe there is something we can do. Maybe it's a simple little thing or maybe it's life altering but in the end the payoff is the same. The point is we must do something." Thanks, Heidu!

3) "I just want to put extra emphasis on the 'moment' of inception and the result of the 'realization': Darrel, I'm not sure of your exact meaning here, but I'm going to translate to my own experiences. I don't know when my moment of inception was. Maybe it was the time my dad blew out of the house and hit me with his belt because I had done something he didn't like some while before and didn't say anything to me. Maybe it was the time my mom's mother put her filthy hands on me the first time. Maybe it was the first time my mother made me feel stupid for something silly I did. I don't know. I also don't know when the realization hit me that I wasn't good enough, smart enough... whatever. My first cognitive moment that I can put my finger on is when I was under hypnosis and the memories started coming back. That's when I felt the pain and shame and was able to say "Aha! No wonder!"

As a child, I didn't know what was right and what was wrong. I didn't know how to fix what was wrong. At that age, there is no cognition. All we have to go by is what is mirrored back to us. "I must be flawed so I better not try and do anything. It most probably will be wrong."

4) What then do we do with the concept of self-improvement?: As adults, we are aware that we are unhappy, relationships don't work like we think they should, we hit dead ends everywhere; in short, what we're doing isn't working for us. What I've done is look inwards to see what I don't like about myself. I even listen to criticism, whether constructive or not and take it apart to see if there is any truth in it. I've set about changing my attitude, listened to other people who have had the same problems to see if they've got a different perspective or something they do different. I weigh it "in my gut" and if it "feels right," (a woman thing ) then I try it. If not, I try something different.

5) It's too late to change the past, isn't it?: Yes, it's too late to change the past but it's never too late to learn from our experiences. Mistakes and problems can be used as growing tools. We can use our mistakes from the past to do things differently. We look back and see where we went wrong and next time we don't do it the same way. It also makes us more empathetic to those around us who may have made similar mistakes or had similar problems. We do what we are doing on this thread.

Conversely, we can take the good experiences, the new way of doing things and build on them. We can gather self-esteem, courage, confidence and can more readily take the next step. If that particular "thing" doesn't work out, we can say to ourselves, "That's ok. I can do this because it worked time before last. I was smart enough, good enough and I measured up to my own expectations! <font color=red>A word of caution here!</font color=red>

6) "My mother was so embarrassed about those marks, and I felt bad about it when I noticed that. (disapproval without healing words to counter it) It was about then that I also started to notice other things like that I was clingy and socially awkward, and in school I got distracted and off-task a lot and the teachers were frustrated with me because I didn't pay attention or finish assignments." A page out of my own life.

7) " 'you can't change the past, really, but what you can do is re-write your story and change your perceptions of it.' " Re-read #5.

"Is this not the definition of denial and repression?" I don't agree that it's denial at all since we are assuming that you've acknowledged the problem/dragon. I don't think the story can be re-written, but chapters of success can be added.

"I prefer to think it better to find the truth, as clear and precise as possible, and find a way to self-acceptance." Self-acceptance is very important! Prior to that, we need to forgive ourselves if indeed it was us that caused the damage.

"I feel that re-writing your story and changing your perceptions of it is different. You don't deny that things happened, but you look for the good in it - how you were strong enough to get through the problems and be a survivor." Right on, Rapunzel!! Looking for the good in my abuse now is that it's made me the strong, empathetic person I am today. In the words of my ex-therapist: "Through you, many people will be healed." Therefore, the book I'm going to finish. (I will! I will! I will! I can do it! Yes, I can!" )

"Yeah, it's hard, and I tend to rebel against the idea that I could go back and look at my childhood and pull out positive things." I've managed to go back and do that, somehow. I've knowingly repressed, off and on, the pain my mom inflicted on my psyche. Now is the time I'm taking it out and forcing myself do deal with it. I've gone through a stage of rage and resentment towards her, but I absolutely refuse to forget the feeling of her wonderful, cool hands on my face when she woke me up in the mornings, the hours she would spend rubbing my legs when I had growing pains, the time she gently scratched my head and it tickled to no end, the time she helped me with a piano piece I was having trouble with and saw her bleeding, cracked fingers from working with heavy denim to keep food on our table and a roof over your heads. I remember taking her hands to my face and kissing each bleeding crack and I also remember the tears we both shed over it. I can't remember those things and hold resentment! Those are the things that dispelled my rage and resentment towards her.

Whew!! I'm glad I'm done with that 'cause it ain't fun!! It's painful! But I know I need to take these things out and look at them again, turn them over, unfold them and see what other nuggets I find that I can use in my recovery.

Thanks so much to everybody for your contributions to this thread. It's a great experience.

{{{{Darrel}}}} Thank you so much for being who you are and not rejecting me after I jabbed at you with my sword (the hypervigilant teenager). I think we were defending the little dancing baby. The baby needs to be a child and have fun. You're gggrrrrrrreeaatttt! Don't stop trying to make yourself understood. Please!!

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Darrel, I've looked for your nine questions and I can't seem to find them. Would you mind posting them again? Thanks!

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Hi Rapunzel Thanks for joining

Wow... I think self-harm is a strong statement of our opinion of personal worth... I think something for each of to consider is how little attention was given these types of incidences in some areas during our younger years... Where I lived, what happened behind closed doors was private.... Even if you did ask for help, it was likely to be referred back to the parents, in some cases, the same people who fostered the damage.

Though the names are different, it seems the role is the same for us. A wall we run into again and again. A conglomeration of sometimes conflicting feelings and thoughts. Connected to personal and painful events from our past. Occuring at a time when we were unable to process or adequately respond. A notion we had failed or weren't good enough. Something we allowed to cut deeply into our soul.

I'm not surprised of the family connection. As a young boy, I could take and give insults like a sailor. Nothing could touch me. Until my dad did something I couldnt ..... It shook the rug from underneath me and I laid on the ground, and from that day til now, I've never recovered. I was 14 at the time. No one else had that ability, but I was vulnerable to him.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius