Re: Avatars

"To quote a line you advised another... "The only way out is through." That's what I'm doing"

And how long have you been working at it, Darrel? You haven't figured out it's not working for you, that you're digging through the wrong tunnel?

Remember, I'm not your wicked step-mother nor your unprotective father, or anyone else that messed with you before. You don't need to unload your anger at them or society on me! My remark wasn't as you call it, "self-agrandizing." It comes from experience. It comes from having tried and failed and tried again. It comes from the knowledge that when one doesn't want to look inside at themselves they play "avoidance" games. I could apologize for sounding "self-agrandizing," but I have no need to. The anger you feel is not about "me," it's about "you" and your past experiences.

Take a look at what I posted in Serenity's thread on "Beauty." STOP - THINK - ACT

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

"That you should choose to betray that confidence in an open forum" I didn't betray a thing, Jill! Stop and think! How long have you been posting here?? How many "underdogs" have you wanted to rescue and protect?? How many times have you wanted to continue to be the "victim"? I'm not the only one that knows you are an enabler, for Pete's sake!

Now, if you remember right, I already knew all that you mentioned in your post, but it wasn't me that said anything to anyone about it at ANY time! YOU made it public!

My "label," as you call it, certainly wasn't willy-nilly since you, yourself admited to having problems in that area.

As for Darrel liking or not liking, being close to or not being close to anyone, "frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn!" It's just that I see so many similarities between the two of you that of course, he's going to gravitate towards the person that agrees with him more often than not.

Didn't you once tell me "That's right, Tomi! Make it all about YOU!" Hmmm... It wasn't about ME then and it isn't about ME now, is it, Jill? Truthfully, I don't care to follow your thought processes, thank you.

BTW, seems some feelings are being projected on me. I do not feel hurt, I've simply had enough of broken agreements of being gentle or at least polite, constant arguing, nitpicking and cop-outs. I'm not a therapist, I'm not being paid for this and I don't need to take it; simple as that! I've reached my limits!

The words "respect" and "I'm sorry" only go so far. I don't translate the word "respect" as such when someone accuses me for a choice they've made all on their own... again, projecting feelings on to me that aren't mine and accusing me of something I had nothing to do with! If it was my preference, it's because I refuse to continue to be a victim to anyone! I was that to too many people for too long a time. NEVER AGAIN if I can possibly help it!

Something else to watch for, Jill. Be careful that you not give your own power away so easily. We both know what I'm talking about, but I'm willing to elaborate if you want me to.

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

Before I reply, accept my best wishes that you'll see through the deep pain and resentment you currently feel to find truth in this situation. It isn't easy, as I know, to face the deeply buried pain. It's challenging and courageous as well to connect the current suffering we might feel with what had happened so long ago.

You've tried very hard to make your argument logical. I could refute many "facts" you've presented, but logic is not going to ease the pain. What I would like to give you right now is a hug and the assurance that you've never lost my friendship.

We knew we would be ripping apart sensitive material on this thread. We've both gone into it knowing and willing.

I'll allow you to say it was my name-calling that ripped this wound open for you. I admit I was tearing at your scab on purpose. I wanted to get this to the surface. I'm sure it's not at all pleasant. Do you have the courage to see it through? The choice is yours to complete what you previously stated you were interested in resolving or finding someone else to work with. Or not to work on it at all......

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

(((( Wendy ))))

How are you sweetheart?

Including the live-in alcohol treatment which followed the advice of AA and the twelve steps at 16, going into my first court ordered therapy for a DUI at age 20 that ran off and on til I was aged 30 because of repeat offenses, the entire time reading, researching, and applying a number of popular therapies, visiting therapists thru mental health in 1985, again in 1987, off and on through the 1990's til it was finally suggested to me in 2000 that I take medication. I used zoloft for about a year, then quit til I began therapy and medication again in May of this year.

Thank you for your kind words... it ain't been easy. I've read books full of "answers", but never really knew how to apply them to my own life. Even just six months ago I was at a very low spot. Progressivly over the years I continued an uphill climb that I feel just now is beginning to crest.

Going to work in social services is the only way I could see to make use of all I've experienced. For me, using the abuse against the abuse has a poetic justice. In my thinking, it brings the lesson full circle. Maybe it doesn't apply to anyone else, in which case all I've said is pointless and was meant for my benefit alone. I understood before I ever asked the questions publicly, but had only asked myself, what the answers were. This thread has only been an effort to share what I'd discovered. If it doesn't apply, then it doesn't apply.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

((((((((( Jill )))))))))

I sense you understand that Tomi is hurting.... Sometimes when our pain overtakes us, we say things we don't mean. The important thing is to come to our senses and accept what is true. I hope you can step back also and recognize this for what it is.

Kindest regards......

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

I just wanted to add that the others on this thread did not make the same agreement we did to confront thier inner conflict. I'm sure it would be appreciated by all if that was considered by everyone.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

I have steared clear of this thread for personal reasons but I have been watching from the outside. Sometimes it's the best way to get a clear perspective.
I will keep this brief because there isn't much I really need to say. I will also keep it general rather than personal.

There is alot of openess on this thread and people have posted some of thier deepest hurts and fears. Now I see those things being used against eachother. That is not the purpose of this thread to my understanding. The purpose, whatever label you put on it was to poke a little at your dragons, inner children, etc and see if you could together find a productive way to get past some of the issues and grow.

Whatever issues anyone has or what direction in life they choose, thier healing process and time schedule is thier own. No one can tell them what or how to do it. They all have to find what is best for them and travel thier own road. The road is a little smoother if you have someone there as a support.

Of course it's good if things can be pointed out along the way because sometimes we lose sense of direction when we are so focused or sometimes we miss a good point or lesson because we are looking at something else. The thing is these things shouldn't be like a slap in the face. You don't talk to a freind or someone that you care about or respect in that manner. They deserve better than that and as people we should do better than that.

I think the concept of this thread was a good idea but I don't believe this is a good place to do it. There is too much unable to be said and no direct contact. I don't believe you can deal with the issues and pick at peoples scabs or wounds without being there to see what kind of damage it is doing. IT is also much easier to pour salt in those wounds and walk away when you don't have to see the pain it causes.

I was doubful about this endeavour from the start but I was hoping that the participation of adults that have really experienced the pain of being abandoned, crushed, dissapointed and hurt by people would have learned enough not to do the same.

I hope you can all work this out. You are all good people and you have a common goal. To be whole and productive in your lives.

Heidu

When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones which open for us.- Alexander Graham Bell

Darrel, Tomi, Heidu, Wendy = I care about all of you very much. Most sincerely, Peanut

<font color=blue>HI FROM PEANUT</font color=blue>

I needed to post this separately.

I want to say that some of the hurtful things that have been said are really unnecessary and just plain mean. I am very dissapointed that some of the people on these forums think it is ok to be personally cruel to people when they feel justified in doing so. In my opinion, there is NO justification to personally attack another or to make judgments on someones character. That is unfair. I could say so much more but I won't because my post would be based on the anger and deep dissapointment I am feeling and it is not a proper time to post.

I will stand in defense of Jill and her character. Jill is also dealing with some very hard issues and is growing by leaps and bound. I see it in her and am sure others do to.

If anyone has a problem with her sticking up for others on this forum that that is YOUR problem and not hers. She like all of us has a right to her opinion. You got to share yours.

I did not agree with everyone on these boards when certain people where "causing problems". I thought that certain people were acting immature and being downright mean and uncaring.

I agreed with Jill in her posts regarding the matter and I still do. I don't see her as an enabler as much as a person who can look past thier own feelings and see the hurts and feelings of another. It's called compassion and understanding. It is a gift not a curse. So, sometimes maybe we coddle someone a little to long or maybe we just want to think the best of them. I would much rather be accused of being that than of being cold hearted and uncaring.

Everyone has a right to thier own opinions and views. They have a right to feel things and they have a right to express those feelings. They also have a responsibility for thier actions. They have a responsibility to other's feelings. I find it hard to believe the same people who say they were invalidated as a child can turn around and do the same thing to others and not even see it.

I will end with this. I back Jill 100%. I think her feelings and her posts were right on. If you have a problem with her than you also have a problem with me.

This place is about growing, helping, learning and supporting. It doesn't feel like that right now.

Heidu


When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones which open for us.- Alexander Graham Bell

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jill, Heidu, Tomi, Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Maybe it was a mistake for me to participate in this thread. I know that it's about confronting our inner conflict, but I think those who are going to do that need to confront their own inner conflict, and be supported by their friends here, and that being confrontational with each other can get hurtful. Jill and Heidu are innocent bystanders trying to mediate to keep people they care about from getting hurt. They have cautioned us before. Thanks for being there. Darrel, that was a very painful life story you shared with us. I really admire the work that you have done with yourself and that you want to use your experience to help other people. Tomi, I know that you hurt too. I'm sure that the fires are not helping anything. I admire you so much too, and the things you have overcome in your life and how you have grown and become a caring person so different from your mother and grandmother. Even for those who have agreed to confront conflict together, I just think we need to use some caution about pushing each other's buttons. There isn't really a need for labels is there? And isn't it okay to agree to disagree sometimes?

Confrontation was the topic we just covered in my interviewing and counseling class. There were a couple of questions asked in class on Friday that I would like to share with you here. Someone asked, "So, is confrontation one of the main goals of therapy?" Answer: "No. It is used sparingly and always in a therapeutic manner. You have to be supportive when you use confrontation. It's about helping the client to recognize the incongruity and work through it and help them to gain a better understanding." Question: "Should you always point out every incongruity that you notice?" Answer: "No, there are lots of things that you will just let slide. If you aren't sure if it's important, if it is, it will come back up again later. You have to decide what is most important to confront."

In another thread I told you about when I was confronted by a therapist about that nervous smile when I talked about suicide. Even professional therapists make mistakes when they use confrontation. In that case, he was not supportive and didn't help me, and just made me so uncomfortable that I ran away and never went back, and 14 years later that memory is still painful. Not so bad now, especially since I finally do understand it. We really need to be careful about confrontation, especially since we can't see each other and don't really have any way of knowing how much someone actually hurts. I know that none of us means to hurt anyone, but when you feel hurt it gets hard to remember that. I hope everybody is okay.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Wendy

<font color=red>"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." -Harriet Braiker</font color=red>

I'm sure I can't be as eloquent as Rapunzel or Heidu. I wanted to give them both a truly heartfelt thanks for thier thoughts. I see a loving kindness being poured on these wounds and I'm totally in awe. I simply can't find the words to say what I feel right now....

I guess one thing that strikes me is how it's love that puts the fires out. It's not something I've experienced a great deal of in life. My fires were all allowed to rage uncontrollably and I find the compassion of this indescribable. I truly could call several people in this thread saints and angels.

Whatever healing, if any, has occured because of this thread, is due to those who have spoken the right words, at the right time. I can't give enough appreciation.

Other words have been spoken that opened wounds. I compare it to resetting a broken leg. There is and has been a lot of pain involved, and no one can deny we each put all we had into this. We each deserve love and appreciation at least for our intent, if not for our mistakes.

This is a juncture we can say "enough!". Even though I am the author, I'm not exercising the decision to end on this note. The door is open because this is not a place where we all feel rewarded for the effort.

Hugs for everyone ......

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Gawd I so wanted to stay out of this thread...even though I followed intently cause the poiunts of view really interested me. A bottle of wine does much for someones "need" to say something.(lol actually 2 glasses but Im not a drinker so it might as well been a whole bottle)
All I wanted to say is one...yes, I agree with Heidi COMPLETELY. And I am also saddened watchign several people Ive come tto care about really struggling here...some hurting...some angry...some defensive...and some jsut throwing their hands in the air. I so wish a good "real" hug could ix it all. But we're all human...we have ourown beliefs and thoughts...and to be honest...wht a wonderful world that we can epress them...discuss them....and even voice them. The intent of the thread I think was wonderful...please dont stry from that in defenses. All these subjects are hard...and to some..they can even be painful.to someintrospective. But we have to respect where each person is at and their choices...decisions...and feelings.....i hope this gets back to the real "meat" again and throwing topics back and forth and different viewpoints...that part really fascinated me and I looked forward to the responses and different viewpoints trying to figure out where I was at in it on a mental level.
Darrell...you knwo Icarefor you ...Tomi...what can I saw...youre very special tool..>Rapunzel..I wihs we chatted more though I learn alot from you rposts and think youre fantastic...My Jill...you share my heart , young lady...you share my fears and my shortcommings and weaknmesses that we both fight ,
This thread has been hard at times...Ive resistedthe urge to say anything because i wanted to see where it woukd go...what I would learn from it....2 glasses of wine and I turn into a chatterbox...yikes....but Im thoughtful.....Im looking in hidn=sight and from the ""outside" as well. though many f s follow th ediscussions here with interest.
Yikes...think my keyboard is melting...good sign thats enough from me
Darrell..I luv ya...Tomi..."I"(See that "I"???) luv ya too...Heid..youre agem inmy eyes...Rap youre so kind and knowledgeable....Peanuttier One.,my Jill....You are me in a separate world,what can I say....
We can all really learn from each other ...even when we disagre..even when it hurts...even when we;re frustrated...jsut take the time to sit back and really think it over......
enough
love youguys
and thank you for the soul serching topics youve had....even us quiet ones followed along and appreciated other points of view.Agree with them or not..always appreciated
Jennifer...aka Serenity

((((((((( Jennifer )))))))))

Those are such dear comments. Luv ya right back Glad you shared with us. (((((Hugs))))) for all the observers

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

First of all, let me say that I am posting this as if I was answering myself because I do not want to address anyone in particular... just everybody that has contributed or has watched this thread.

Second, I am very aware that my words, spoken as well as written, come across as harsh. I've given the matter quite a bit of thought because I've been told that for quite a while. I've read and re-read what I have written and for the life of me, I can't figure it out. Perhaps, to me, it's the lack of emotion that I sometimes write with that comes across as harshness and/or anger. I've even been told that I am self-righteous in my writing. Personally, I don't see it as such. The way I interpret that is that I know my limits and I know my boundaries. I defend them; sometimes very strongly.

In my understanding, this tread started with the intention of figuring out some of the limitations that we are aware of that keep us from being whole human beings, whole persons. I understood that in the process, we would encounter "buttons," things that would spark painful memories and emotions. It was never meant to purposely cause those emotions or memories, to purposely put blame on another or to make judgements of another.

When I have made suggestions or posted something that helped me tremendously in understanding why I act in certain ways or why I respond in those ways, I did it strictly as something to be considered with an open mind, not as a cause of pain for another nor something to be an item of contentiousness, much less a tool to attack me with.

Through all of this, I, like some others that have contributed, have made mistakes. What's new? None of us are perfect and I think, that for the most part, we all admit it. In my estimation, there was only one time that I actively "attacked" someone because there have been past issues between us. However, I did not betray any confidences as I was accused. I am always very conscious of not doing that. I and another person PMed about this person contributing to this thread. I explained that I could not work with this person because as I had felt before, it was a roller coaster ride that I had already been on and didn't care to get back on it again. I didn't feel that the thread would continue to move forward but in the end, I gave in to that person against my better judgment. After all, this thread was meant to "stretch" us as persons. I failed miserably in that endeavor but contrary to what some people want to stubbornly think, I am not in pain about it.

I feel that I have been completely honest in my postings yet I am not believed for whatever reason. Perhaps these people can't or won't but as far as I am concerned, it is because of their own issues, not mine. I don't appreciate being told how I feel. My feelings are my own and I've learned to recognize them, identify them and do not project them on others.

(I'm thinking that right about now some readers are feeling that I am beginning to get angry again. I'm not angry... but perhaps I'm slamming down the protective shield where that particular boundary is. Would you call that "defensive"? Maybe. I'm still a work in progress... besides, I don't think defending one's boundaries is all that bad... in fact, it's a good thing. Perhaps I could learn the term "Strong but gentle.")

I'm terribly sorry that this thread did not end how it had been hoped it would. Maybe expectations were set too high. Too much faith was placed on people that are not trained in the art of productive confrontation or fair fighting. I, for one, am guilty of that. It was a learning experience nonetheless. However, I am sorry that people were hurt in many ways.

<font color=blue>Don't die with your music still inside you.</font color=blue>

A sincere thank you to everyone who has participated. This thread has changed me in ways I hope to learn from and apply from today forward.

I'm sorry everyone can't feel or find the way to use it's discoveries. Sometimes the harder we try to avoid the hole, the deeper we find ourselves rooted there.

For me, this experience symbolizes a drama mankind has found himself in repeatedly for eternity. Faced with adversity, confronting "the dragon", and in some cases, overcoming.

Pain is not a new concept to the theory of existence. It's been shared by every generation in history. We could look back at mankind's progress and see a slow and steady progression of dealing with strife, overcoming, and returning again to the battlefield for the next confrontation.

As it always has been and possibly always will be. The conditions surrounding us today are nothing more than our inheritance in this war against oppression and indiginity. Our children will be faced with the same decision of whether to pick up arms and fight for their own individuality or suffer the same fate many of us have. What's important to realize is that it's never too late to play a part to make today and tomorrow a better world for ourselves and our neighbors.

This is the end of this thread, but the beginning of the rest of our lives. We all have choices.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

I'm locking this thread for now.

Please continue private discussions between two people in PMs.

Please continue new discussions related to depression and depression support by posting a new topic.

Thanks!
John