Re: Avatars

Hey Sept

Grams getting stregth back and working with therapists, starting to eat mashed potatoes instead of just yogurt. She had a case of pinkeye, but that's all cleared up. Thanks for asking.

I'm still time crunched.. trying to get priorites straight and stick to them.

Best of luck to you Fri if I don't talk before then. I'm not sure what you're hearings all about, but hopefully justice is on your side. (and the Judge too

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

September and all participants of this thread.
When I read about the role playing idea a red flag went off for me but I havent said anything. I feel compelled to do so now.

None of us are trained professionals. We also don't have the ability to really be there for one another in a physical sense.

Going back to a sensitive time or experience while someone is "pushing buttons" "playing devils advocate" whatever you want to call it does not sound like a safe thing to me.

You would be opening yourself up to reading a post that can directly affect you and may even be harmful. While you have the boards there will be no one there to really help you should things go to far. There is no direct conversation so the person would know if what they are saying or doing was too much. Judgements could be misunderstood as honesty.

Also consider that the people involved must be commited and understanding. They may decide that they can't handle the pressure and back out leaving you to deal with it or they may decide that you aren't "playing" right. They may decide they know how and when you should do something and if you don't comply they walk out of it.

All these things leaving you open, raw and on your own.
I think the roll playing could be a dangerous game and no one needs to hurt more than they already do.
Just my 2.
Heidu

The highest reward for a person's toil is not what they get for it, but what they become by it.
John Ruskin

My first instinct was 'caution' as well... Tis because we care about everyone involved that this is being expressed, wisely me thinks... Most fondly, Peanut

<font color=blue>HI FROM PEANUT</font color=blue>

Good point, Heidu. Role playing does scare me. I couldn't even do it in therapy when I've tried. That was partly because the therapist didn't play the role correctly in my opinion (I kept interrupting to point out that my parents or whoever it was just wouldn't say that) so we tried switching roles - the therapist being me. I couldn't handle that either. It made me too uncomfortable and I could not get into it.

I was thinking maybe I could handle it if we started with someone else, but maybe that isn't something we ought to try here. Sometimes it's easier to talk about things when you don't have to look at a real person face-to-face, and I think we are all aware here that we are dealing with real people, but if we did get into things that were too painful to deal with, we wouldn't be able to see when it was time to stop.

Wendy

<font color=purple>"The real problem of mental life is not why some people become insane, but rather why most avoid insanity." -Erich Fromm</font color=purple>

Thanks for your replies Wendy and Peanut. I didn't post this to throw rain on anyones parade. It just struck me when I first read about it and toady I felt that I really needed to share what I was feeling about the subject.
If people think it would help them by all means go for it, you gotta do what feels right to you. But I couldn't sit here and not say anything when I see a potential danger zone.
Heidu

The highest reward for a person's toil is not what they get for it, but what they become by it.
John Ruskin

No one has to do anything they don't want to with this. Heidu's point is valid, but I would add a caution as well. Are they caution flags, or avoidance mechanisms?

I think what you mentioned about not acting in true character is definately a challenge. Face to face or across the internet.

I feel grateful that Sept. and I have dealt with our dif's, and I believe I've gained quite a bit from it. I hope she would say the same. But I wouldn't want to push too far. The idea that it is role playing should give us a comfort level because the things said are in character, not reality.

Absolutely none of us are psychologists and I see the danger as well. Not so much for myself, I know where my boundaries are, but I definately do not want to cause damage to anyone here, so maybe it's best not to try it.

These recent posts have caused me to feel badly. It's not my interest to "put" anyone through anything. What I've recieved so far from this thread is more than I expected. We can end it anytime.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Peanut

I attempted to note your kind group hug previously, but the pc locked up. It's very appreciated and has helped a lot in this trying thread. Hugs for you too dear

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Darrel,

This thread really has been great, and I hope it keeps going. If someone wants to try the role playing idea, I'm cool with that but I can't go first and might not participate in the role playing. We'll see.

Defense mechanisms or avoidance sometimes keeps us from dealing with things that we need to deal with, but sometimes it serves a purpose too. Well, we know that we need to be careful with role playing at any rate. If you want to try it, go right ahead. I'm still interested in the idea and I'm glad that we're all aware of its potential difficulties.


<font color=purple>"The real problem of mental life is not why some people become insane, but rather why most avoid insanity." -Erich Fromm</font color=purple>

Oh, gosh, (((Darrell))) = Please don't feel badly about anything - I've never even thought for a minute that you didn't have everyone's very best intentions at heart - really; and this is a really valuable thread... How is your Gram? Been keeping her in prayer. Your friend, as ever, Peanut

<font color=blue>HI FROM PEANUT</font color=blue>

Thanks Peanut

Gram's still in recovery but making progress.. I'll tell her you're praying, it means a lot to her and me too

You've helped a lot on this thread and it's appreciated... hope you're doing well

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Rapunzel

Your contributions have done a lot to make this thread what it is, I wouldn't want you to drop out if we role played.

Personally, I think I'd like to spend more time on questions 4 - 7.

For reference:

4. What does the dragon / inner child / cloud / etc.. want?
5. How can we help it?
6. What can we learn?
7. How will we reintegrate?

I think these 4 questions are key to healing. I think it would be good for me to re-evaluate my answers with the inclusion of wicked step-mother's role. (No offense to kind step-mothers

If anyone is familiar with the Socratic Method, it also might be a tool we could apply to this.

I also want to mention everyone involved with this deserves a lot of credit for courage and bravery. Few are willing to look the beast in the eye and you each deserve major kudo's. I deeply believe there are great rewards on the other side.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Wendy, I agree with Darrel that your contributions to this thread have been very valuable. I'd hate to see you drop out of it because of the role playing. To tell you the truth, I've never been comfortable with it, either, but I thought it was just embarassement or shyness. Here, it wouldn't be nearly as bad because no one would be "watching me."

My thoughts on stepping on other's boundaries were that if we do, rather than getting pissed like I have, just announce that your boundaries/buttons have been pushed and try to deal with it by explaining the button, how it came to be and say how we feel, rather than blast the other person to heck! (Like I have... )

If we stop and think, like Darrel does, before we type... or even go ahead and type our feelings, then go back and re-word so that we delete any accusations or judgements the best we can, that way we'll also learn how to communicate our feelings without crushing those of others.

What do you think? It will take some practice, naturally, but we'll have learned quite a few things that way.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Hey, Darrel! Good to see you posting on this thread again! Glad your grams is doing better. You and she are still in my prayers.

I like your suggestion of working on the questions. They are key to healing. It's possible, though, that we may have to go through the questions more than once, judging from your mention of "the wicked step-mother." (I'm not touching that for more reason's than one. hehe) The reason I say that is because it could well have been more than one contributor to the "dragon's, etc" existance.

Would you please give a short (if possible) synopsis of what the Socratic Method is? I'm not sure if it's clear in my mind or not.

<font color=red>I also want to mention everyone involved with this deserves a lot of credit for courage and bravery. Few are willing to look the beast in the eye and you each deserve major kudo's. I deeply believe there are great rewards on the other side.</font color=red>

Ditto that!!

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Hi (((((((((Tomi))))))))) I'm glad to see you too I admire your strength and perseverence. You ROCK !! How did the hearing go? I'm still in the dark about what it's all about, but I hope it's going your way

Thank you for the thoughts on Gram. If she continues to improve, it may take some time, but she'll get back on her feet.

General definition of Socrates Method: Two or more parties involved in question / answer discussion. One party may only ask questions while other parties may only answer. For example: I would ask you why you disapprove of how you were treated by your mother. You give answer like: Because she was unsupportive. Then I might ask you what she could have done to be more supportive. You would answer "listen to my feelings." I would follow by asking How did she ignore your feelings? You would explain in your answer.

It doesn't have to be so simplified, but that's a general example. Both parties are given an opportunity to learn because the questioner may hear something in the answer he / she themself hadn't thought of, and the responder may learn by considering new questions they hadn't fully or recently answered.
It works best with only two people invoolved, but, I think we could adapt it to more than one at a time if we keep the sequence in order.
Reportedly, this is the method of education Socrates used with his students.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Most law schools still educate students this was as well = part of it is that Socrates would ask questions which allowed the respondent to find their own answers thru the question and answer method... Huggsies...

<font color=blue>HI FROM PEANUT</font color=blue>

Exactly.. their own answers, not textbook or what works for someone else... Didn't know that about law schools, but doesn't surprise me. At the same time as discovering, it trains the mind in critical thinking... thanks for the input

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

(ahem!) You'll find the answers to your questions in Anxiety - Oh Lord! Have mercy! Sorry 'bout that.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Darrel,

Please tell your grandma that I'm still praying for her too. It sounds like she's improving? I hope so.

If anyone tries the role playing idea, I would not drop out, but would watch with interest and add comments if I have anything to say. Don't worry about it

The Socratic method also sounds interesting, but difficult to impliment in this setting. It's another thing that might work better in the chat room.

Everyone who has participated in this thread has had valuable ideas and contributions, and it does take some courage to face our garbage like this, so a round of applause to all is very appropriate.

As for further discussion of the questions, I have a few more ideas. I need to go back to <font color=red>3. What is the dragon about?</font color=red>

My original answer was a screen to hide my feelings and keep me out of trouble. That may be part of it, but there is more to it than that. It is also conflict, which causes anxiety. This could be conflict between my need to have and express feelings and my parents' wish to suppress my feelings. Or conflict between what we are or what we need and what others want us to be/ consider acceptable, or even our own ideas of what we should be. Or to hide the conflict. Once more, this was necessary when growing up - it was functional and adaptive - although now it doesn't work so well and is no longer as appropriate.

On to number 4. <font color=red>What does the dragon / inner child / cloud / etc.. want?</font color=red>

I said to be safe and to be free to feel. In other words, not to have to hide? The feelings and the conflict needs to be recognized and explored, as well as validated. There is more to it, I'm sure. What do you think? I've lost track of your answers to the questions. How does this tie in with your answers? (plural - I'm asking anyone who answered or who has something to say.)



<font color=purple>"The real problem of mental life is not why some people become insane, but rather why most avoid insanity." -Erich Fromm</font color=purple>

Hi Wendy

Gram's getting stronger and mentally she's very alert.. more than Ive seen her in awhile (maybe fear has motivated her?). She still struggles to speak and eating soft foods... No indication of when she's coming home. Starting to walk under her own power better.. thanks for the prayers I'll tell her. You're a special one Wendy

Offhand, I don't recall specifically my answer to the questions. I need to go back and find them and print them, but what you've said on three definately fits into my observation. I don't recall suppressing my feelings so much to my dad or step-mom except that I hated my step mom and knew I couldn't tell her that. I tried to get along with her, but there was just no way. She had a chip on her shoulder and I was her vent. My relationship with her is what motivated me to leave my dad and live with y mom at 14. During the next year, my life turned around completely. Mostly at first my dominant feelings were fear and confusion. I remeber anger became a part of the dragon later, when I was 18 or older. Anger that I couldn't figure out what was happening to me, why I felt so disconnected from everything. The conflicts you mentioned were all a part of the process. The need to hide. Wanting to be as I was before. Not liking who I'd become. Not feeling normal. I always hoped the answers were just around the corner, but they eluded me for a long, long time.

The answer to #4 is a recent insight for me. First I had to understand what the dragon was about. Then I could see what he wanted. I had stop denying and hating him. I had to accept his pain. I had to listen to him. He kept on saying how he'd been hurt. Over and over and over in the same ways, but I'd never listened. I realize now what I'd tried to do was ignore the pain and thought if I just topped it off with newer, more healthy ideas, the pain would go away. But it doesn't At least it didn't for me.

Depression is like rust on an old car. You can put fresh paint on it year after year, but the rust will always work back to the surface. All the paint in the world won't stop the rust. All the books I'd read, meditation I'd done, thought training didn't work because the rust was still there.

The dragon is the pain, telling me I need to resand the surface, fix the rust spots, and then repaint. The dragon wants to be heard. Until I listen, he will howl louder and louder each time. The dragon is telling me I've run, I've hid, I've missed the point, I've done everything I can to avoid paying attention to the true problem.

I don't want to push anyone on anything, but I believe the Socrates Method is implemented well in this forum. In chat, we'd give quick answers. The more considered answer, the better. It's actually more perfect in this setting than chat. You'd have time to develop your answer. Personally, I'd like to try it if anyone else would. I like it better than the role playing idea.

Hugs to everyone

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Darn! You're making me work ! Okay, I'll try to find it

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

You've given me too much credit... I lost my temper as well, but I really like your idea about how to manage the triggers... Call me crazy, but I think we need the triggers to push past what's blocking us. But if we do have them, lets be real cool with each other, we are real people on the other side of these monitors as so many have noted.

I forgot to congratulate you on the other thread, sooo

HIP HIP HOORAY !!!! Way to go Way to fight Way to persevere A victory we all can feel inspired by Tomi... Love it !

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Thank you, {{{{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Never give up!

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Ok... an example of how I could have managed my trigger better:

Darrel: "you wouldn't understand"

Tomi: Instead of coming off like this: "What makes you think that I couldn't understand?? ... It's an affront to the intelligence and understanding I have. How dare you assume that I have absolutely no burden for the injustices and wrongs in society??"

I should have said something like the following: "Darrel, I feel threatened and stupid when I am told that I don't understand. I need you to please rephrase that statement."

Something I learned during therapy was better ways to communicate. "I" statements are best when trying to clarify a point or a feeling. "I feel... I need... I want..." We can start by "owning our own feelings" and not placing the blame on the other person. When a statement is started with "you," it almost always puts the other person on the defensive.

How would this work out so that we can deal with our triggers? We can start working on this now by becoming aware. If any other triggers are pushed, we can work it out this way rather than blast the other person.

Something to keep in mind, too, is the fact that our reaction is our choice. I could have chosen to not let Darrel's words put me on the defensive. I didn't stop to think, though. That's something else I learned: Stop, Think, Act. Ok, so I blew it that time! You know what they say about "practice makes perfect"? I haven't been practicing much lately. I promise to start now.


<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

One more thing to add to what the dragon wants: <font color=orange>acceptance</font color=orange>. I thought I should have added that after my last post, but you are saying it too. That's good about the dragon needing to be recognized. You can't just cover it up with a new coat of paint - it will keep coming back. How do you know if you are healing the dragon's pain or just covering it up?

How old were you when your dad married your stepmother?

The Socrates method sounds interesting. Why not give it a try? Who will ask questions and who will answer? Should that have its own thread?

Tomi, good ideas on tension management! Being able to express and recognize anger, let alone deal with it effectively, is really pretty good. I don't even do anger - I just stuff it. So you're ahead of me on that.

<font color=purple>"The real problem of mental life is not why some people become insane, but rather why most avoid insanity." -Erich Fromm</font color=purple>

I don't deal with anger either........I push it into a closet and leave it there until something horrible happens and I explode with crazy actions.

Don't mind me.........lol.......I might throw a few comments in here and there, if that is alright.