Re: Avatars

((((((((((((((((((Wendy)))))))))))))))))))

"What I said, what I wanted, what I needed, just plain didn't matter to anyone."

Did you consider yourself to be no one?

"nobody listened to me"

Did you decide to stop talking?

"I wasn't worth it."

Is that "them" talking, or you?

How did you confront your sister about copying you and lying?

Can you think of any pleasant experiences during this time?

Do you think the faculty and your parents made you the scapegoat? Why?

Were the bullies waiting for you, or just hanging around when you came by? What happened if you tried to fight back? Were they boys, girls, or mixed? What sort of things would they say and do?

Did you tell your parents about the bullies, or the teachers? How did they respond? What did their responses make you think?

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

The memory that has stood out to me the most goes back to when I was six and in first grade. I filled in a section of the ditto paper the class was working on and I was supposed to have waited till we finished going over the rest of it. A boy next to me raised his hand and told the teacher what I had done. The teacher smacked me in the calves with a ruler. When I went home for lunch, my mother saw the red marks and asked me what had happened. I told her. Later that night, I heard her discussing it with her mother. At first, it was her intention to go to the school and confront the teacher. By morning, I heard her telling her mother that she was afraid that it would go worse for me if she did confront the teacher and/or talk to the principal. My mother didn't walk to school with me like she had told me she would.

Reading your response to Wendy's post, Darrel, these two things jumped out at me. They apply to me, too.

1) Did you decide to stop talking?

Wendy: "nobody listened to me"
Me: ditto - yes

2) Is that "them" talking, or you?

Wendy: "I wasn't worth it." - ditto
My impulse is to say "me" but it is "them."

Yes, somewhere along the line, I decided to stop talking, or at least telling my mother anything from "I don't feel well" to "Someone hurt me." To this day, I feel that no one believes me when I say something hurts me or I'm feeling like I'm going to die (when I have a panic attack.) Most of the time, I just don't say anything.

((((((((( Tomi ))))))))

What message did you recieve from your teacher who smacked you about your self-worth, self-image? From your mother's decision to neglect protecting you? Do you think she responded appropriately? How would you have wanted her to respond? Was it possible for her to do so? How did you feel regarding authority figures because of this experience? How did you feel about your peers?

Did ceasing to complain gain anything for you then? Does it still have that reward?

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

What message did you recieve from your teacher who smacked you about your self-worth, self-image?

That I was bad and that I was stupid.

From your mother's decision to neglect protecting you?

I wasn't valuable enough to protect.

Do you think she responded appropriately?

No.

How would you have wanted her to respond?

To walk back to school with me that afternoon and confront the teacher in the presense of the principal.

Was it possible for her to do so?

Physically, yes.

How did you feel regarding authority figures because of this experience?

The're always out to get you.

How did you feel about your peers?

Don't trust easily. Some are out for their own good even if it means hurting someone.

Did ceasing to complain gain anything for you then?

No more dissapointment. Didn't upset my mother.

Does it still have that reward?

Possibly.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

(((((((((( Tomi )))))))))))

That I was bad and that I was stupid.
Why were you bad? Why were you stupid?

I wasn't valuable enough to protect.
What are you basing your self value on?

To walk back to school with me that afternoon and confront the teacher in the presense of the principal.
How might that have changed things?

Physically, yes.
Could you explain this more?

The're always out to get you.
Did you see "them" as different than other people?

Don't trust easily. Some are out for their own good even if it means hurting someone.
Do you believe this is accurate?

No more dissapointment. Didn't upset my mother.
So disappointment ended when you didn't complain? Your mother was not upset anymore?



"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Darrel, I looked at your questions yesterday but needed a little more time to think about it before answering.

<font color=yellow>"What I said, what I wanted, what I needed, just plain didn't matter to anyone."</font color=yellow>
Did you consider yourself to be no one?

<font color=blue>Not at that point, actually, but that was a message that started to sink in and by the time I was a teenager I did feel like a nobody.</font color=blue>

<font color=yellow>"nobody listened to me"</font color=yellow>
Did you decide to stop talking?
<font color=blue>Again, not yet, but eventually I got to the point where it just wasn't worth the effort to try to get anyone to listen to my side of the story. I was very quiet, starting at about that time. I wasn't shy at all as a preschooler - I actually was very outgoing - but that is one aspect of my personality that was permanently altered. I still say very little in real life situations. When I was in high school someone made an observation that I never said much, but when I did, people listened. I guess that's true - when I did decide to speak up I still spoke quietly and everybody tended to stop talking to hear it. </font color=blue>

<font color=yellow>"I wasn't worth it."</font color=yellow>
Is that "them" talking, or you?

<font color=blue>That was the conclusion I drew based on that nobody cared enough to make any effort to meet or even recognize my expressed needs. Nobody said the words, "You aren't worth it," but they always gave excuses and didn't ever look for ways to do what I was asking for.</font color=blue>

How did you confront your sister about copying you and lying?

<font color=blue>I don't really remember confronting her, but I was really mad at her. I bet I probably did accuse her of lying and just saying that it was my fault because "my sister made me late" was my line I always used and she copied it from me. My mother took her side though. Since I was the oldest, I was supossed to know better than fighting or getting upset about things.</font color=blue>

Can you think of any pleasant experiences during this time?

<font color=blue>I had a couple of friends. I was so clingy and dependent on them though. There was one girl who had been in my class in second grade, not third grade, but we were still friends. She had a sister the same age as my sister too. Sometimes we all played together, both at school during recess and outside of school too a little bit. And there was a boy who tried to rescue me from the bullies. His idea was to walk home a different way - sometimes it was way out of the way and took a couple of hours to get home, and I was lost but he seemed to know where we were. It was like an adventure, and I got scolded for being so late getting home, but it was fun.

Visiting my grandparents was something I liked too, but it was a three hour drive to get there so we didn't go very often. When we did go we stayed for a few days or longer.</font color=blue>

Do you think the faculty and your parents made you the scapegoat? Why?

<font color=blue>No, I wasn't blamed for problems in general. I was just expected to stay out of everybody's way and not bother them.</font color=blue>

Were the bullies waiting for you, or just hanging around when you came by? What happened if you tried to fight back? Were they boys, girls, or mixed? What sort of things would they say and do?

<font color=blue>At the time it never occured to me that the bullies might have been after anyone else. They just appeared and started picking on me - I was never even sure where they came from but it seemed like they were watching and waiting for me to come by. There was one way to walk home that was the most direct route, and two alternate routes I tried, and I encountered the bullies on all three routes. Sometimes they might have followed me. Now it seems likely that they would have settled for any kid who looked like an easy target - smaller than them and alone. It never occurred to me to fight back. There were usually two or three bullies, and they were a couple of years older and a lot bigger than I was. I might have tried to run once or twice but they caught me and knocked me down and threatened to kill me if I resisted again. It was not always the same kids - there were at least three or four boys and one girl. The girl picked on me at school too, and one thing she did was spit gum in my face or something - I couldn't always figure out what was hitting me. When I was walking home from school knocking me down (by pushing and shoving or tripping me) was one of the main things (they got mad if I didn't fall down easily enough) and also pinching my cheeks.</font color=blue>

Did you tell your parents about the bullies, or the teachers? How did they respond? What did their responses make you think?

<font color=blue>My mother noticed that I was getting home late, with red and swollen cheeks and scrapes and bruises, and asked about it. When I came up with a description of the bullies that was good enough to identify them she reported it to the school, and I don't know what they did but the bullies were mad at me because they had been punished, so they picked on me more. Later on after we had moved and I went to a different school, I felt threatened by some kids there and told a teacher. Then, I was told not to complain about things and that I was probably wrong to feel threatened - that kids are just like that. I think it was just teasing then. All the responses just made me think that it was useless to ask for help because it never made anything better and usually made it worse. I was on my own and hopeless.</font color=blue>

<font color=purple>"The real problem of mental life is not why some people become insane, but rather why most avoid insanity." -Erich Fromm</font color=purple>

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Wendy}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

((((((( Wendy))))))

Did you consider yourself to be no one?

Not at that point, actually, but that was a message that started to sink in and by the time I was a teenager I did feel like a nobody.

<font color=blue>Is anybody "nobody"? What does it feel like to be nobody?</font color=blue>

Did you decide to stop talking?

Again, not yet, but eventually I got to the point where it just wasn't worth the effort to try to get anyone to listen to my side of the story. I was very quiet, starting at about that time. I wasn't shy at all as a preschooler - I actually was very outgoing - but that is one aspect of my personality that was permanently altered. I still say very little in real life situations. When I was in high school someone made an observation that I never said much, but when I did, people listened. I guess that's true - when I did decide to speak up I still spoke quietly and everybody tended to stop talking to hear it.

<font color=blue>What would have made it "worth the effort"? Is there anyway to get that "worth"?</font color=blue>

Is that "them" talking, or you?

That was the conclusion I drew based on that nobody cared enough to make any effort to meet or even recognize my expressed needs. Nobody said the words, "You aren't worth it," but they always gave excuses and didn't ever look for ways to do what I was asking for.

<font color=blue>Referring to "nobody" and "didn't ever", are these possibly inaccurate? Is it possible there were others who tried, but for some reason didn't fulfill your needs at the time? Is it possible that you might have contibuted to your isolation in some ways? By not talking for instance? Or rejecting sympathy?</font color=blue>

How did you confront your sister about copying you and lying?

I don't really remember confronting her, but I was really mad at her. I bet I probably did accuse her of lying and just saying that it was my fault because "my sister made me late" was my line I always used and she copied it from me. My mother took her side though. Since I was the oldest, I was supossed to know better than fighting or getting upset about things.

<font color=blue>Is it true you did know better? What made you qualified at that age to "know better?" </font color=blue>

Can you think of any pleasant experiences during this time?

I had a couple of friends. I was so clingy and dependent on them though. There was one girl who had been in my class in second grade, not third grade, but we were still friends. She had a sister the same age as my sister too. Sometimes we all played together, both at school during recess and outside of school too a little bit. And there was a boy who tried to rescue me from the bullies. His idea was to walk home a different way - sometimes it was way out of the way and took a couple of hours to get home, and I was lost but he seemed to know where we were. It was like an adventure, and I got scolded for being so late getting home, but it was fun.

Visiting my grandparents was something I liked too, but it was a three hour drive to get there so we didn't go very often. When we did go we stayed for a few days or longer.

<font color=blue>Within the friends group, what was your role? In what way did they sympathize with you? How did they try to help, or empower you? How did you try to empower yourself?</font color=blue>

<font color=blue>What part of the new school experiences could have been carried over from the previous school? Were you expecting to be teased and bullied, or did you feel you had finally escaped?</font color=blue>


"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

<center>{{{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}</center>

Why were you bad? Why were you stupid?
Obviously, I was bad because I was told on and punished. I was stupid because it was well into the year and I was still confused whether I should do the top part of the paper or not.

What are you basing your self value on?
Everyone protects what is valuable to them, especially their children.

How might that have changed things?
It would have given me the message that I was important enough for my mother to protect, whether it changed things at school or not. At least I would have known my mother cared enough to at least tell the teacher and principal that they had overstepped their boundaries. It might have begun to prove what she always told me, that she would throw herself in front of a hungry lion before she'd let anything happen to me. Yeah, right!!

Could you explain this more?
My mom and dad had just split up and although my mother didn't seem emotional to me, I knew she was homesick and lonely. To me, all the more reason to protect what she had left.

Did you see "them" as different than other people?
Yes. Authority figures (older people) were/are always mean and take advantage of their position.

Do you believe this is accurate?
Yes.

So disappointment ended when you didn't complain? Your mother was not upset anymore?
No, disappointment didn't end. I would have wanted her to be so aware of my emotional and physical needs that I should not have had to tell her. Yes, my mother was always upset.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

((((((((((((((( Tomi )))))))))))))))

Why is it obvious that you were bad and stupid? What other explanations can you think of?

So if someone fails to protect you, that means you have no worth?

How do you view authority figures today? Would this understanding change anything from your past if it was supplanted for the old belief that they are all mean?

In what way is it your fault for your mother not living up to her statements?

So really, there was no profit from becoming silent? It didn't change your mothers attitude, or improve your life in any way? How might it have harmed it?

If you put your grownup self back into the same situation you experienced as a child, what would you do differently? Would there be a different outcome? How would you interpret the messages of your teachers, peers, mother? Would you still blame yourself? Did you blame yourself? Were you primarily angry then, or sad? What other interpretations might be possible besides your child self and adult self understandings? Might others see different points and have different interpretations?

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

<font color=green> I hope you don't mind that I am taking my time with my answers. I just have to take this slowly, as it can easily get overwhelming.</font color=green>

Is anybody "nobody"? What does it feel like to be nobody?
<font color=green>Rationally, I would tell you that everybody is somebody and no one is nobody. However, on a feeling level I still felt like I was nobody, I didn't count, and really had no right to even exist. I always slipped through the cracks and wasn't even noticed. Jumping ahead through the rest of my school years, I was just one of those 'Air Force Brats' and there was no reason for anybody to care because I would just be gone in a couple of years anyway so might as well be someone else's problem. I was quiet, didn't get into trouble, didn't ever stand out. Why should anyone care? I went to a high school that had 4000 students. What's one more? </font color=green>

What would have made it "worth the effort"? Is there anyway to get that "worth"?
<font color=green>If anyone had ever really responded to me or cared. Even as an adult I have usually felt worthless because nothing I do is actually worth anything to everybody. I raise goats and sheep and I knit and I play the recorder. Who cares? That is one of the reasons why I am going back to school. Maybe if I had a degree I would be worth something. Maybe then people would listen to me sometimes or care what I had to say.</font color=green>

Referring to "nobody" and "didn't ever", are these possibly inaccurate? <font color=green>of course</font color=green> Is it possible there were others who tried, but for some reason didn't fulfill your needs at the time? Is it possible that you might have contibuted to your isolation in some ways? By not talking for instance? Or rejecting sympathy? <font color=green>yup</font color=green>

Is it true you did know better? What made you qualified at that age to "know better?" <font color=green> Not always. I tried so hard to be what my mother expected, but sometimes my best just wasn't good enough. I was very sensitive, and took the slightest correction pretty hard. But my sister always got more approval because she never questioned anything, and I tried to think for myself. I still think that I was right to want independence, even though my parents didn't approve of me wanting it.</font color=green>

Within the friends group, what was your role? In what way did they sympathize with you? How did they try to help, or empower you? How did you try to empower yourself?
<font color=green>The girl who was in my second grade class, I'm pretty sure probably thought I was a pest, but she was too nice and nonassertive herself to tell me to go away. I clung to her - it's really embarassing. The boy who sometimes walked home with me tried to show me a way to escape the bullies. I had absolutely no concept of empowering myself - I completely bought into the victim role and didn't see any other options.</font color=green>

What part of the new school experiences could have been carried over from the previous school? Were you expecting to be teased and bullied, or did you feel you had finally escaped?
<font color=green>I had no expectation of anything being different. I was full of anger and had no idea what to do with it - my parents would never approve of expressing it, and I was hurt about leaving my friends behind, and decided not to try to make new friends that I would just have to leave again. My parents approved of that decision. There were people I could have called friends at times, and some that I did refer to as friends (sometimes my parents reminded me that I had decided not to have friends, implying that they would rather I stuck to that), but pretty much all I was to them was a charity case. They might have been nice to me because they were nice people and didn't want to be rude, but I don't know why they would have wanted me as a friend. Most of the time I was simply left alone. I didn't start to learn about real friendships until getting internet. After developing some internet friendships I have been able to generalize it to some real life situations. </font color=green>

<font color=purple>"The real problem of mental life is not why some people become insane, but rather why most avoid insanity." -Erich Fromm</font color=purple>

{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}} I'm still concerned about you not "getting your turn." I feel like we are keeping you too busy asking us questions to do your own work. That's why I haven't posted my answers to your latest questions.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Thanks sweetie, but I never stop doing "my work". I'm feeling a little drained from all that's happening outside the thread... let's get your answers up here if you're ready and take a break, does anyone else agree?

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

Ok, I'll get my answers up tonight but we'd all benefit from what you are doing, too. (smiles ever so sweetly) hehe

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Why is it obvious that you were bad and stupid? What other explanations can you think of?

I wouldn't have been punished if I hadn't done something wrong. As an adult now, of course, I know that the woman didn't have a good sense of proper discipline. She could have had me erase my answers and work with the rest of the class.

So if someone fails to protect you, that means you have no worth?

As a child, I think you autimatically assume that. As an adult, experience teaches you that some people have issues of their own and can't always be there for you.

How do you view authority figures today?

Sadly, I think I still view authority figures the same way.

Would this understanding change anything from your past if it was supplanted for the old belief that they are all mean?

It's always been a struggle to think logically about this. Experience hasn't been kind to me... or maybe my own reaction brings on the old belief. I'm not sure.

In what way is it your fault for your mother not living up to her statements?

It's not my fault at all! I was an innocent child.

So really, there was no profit from becoming silent?

My only profit was that at least I wasn't the focus of her problems.

It didn't change your mothers attitude, or improve your life in any way?

I'm not sure whether it changed my mother's attitude about me or not. Maybe she thought "Well, at least she's not having any more problems at school."

How might it have harmed it?

I developed my own childish, faulty defense mechanisms and tried to deal with my own problems without seeking any outside help.

If you put your grownup self back into the same situation you experienced as a child, what would you do differently?

Don't know whether to start with doing the paper wrong on later... As an adult, no doubt I would have listened better. As an adult, I wouldn't have allowed her to hit me and if she had, I would have gone to the principal and reported her.

Would there be a different outcome?

Yes. My mother wouldn't have dissapointed me.

How would you interpret the messages of your teachers, peers, mother?

My impression of my teachers would have been that they didn't know how to deal with children properly. My peers would have been meddlesome people and my mother may have been a good mother having taught me how to take care of myself.

Would you still blame yourself?

No.

Did you blame yourself?

Yes,

Were you primarily angry then, or sad?

Sad.

What other interpretations might be possible besides your child self and adult self understandings?

I don't think my interpretations would be different. There is no exuse for abuse although I didn't see it as abuse then. In my narrow vision, adults only recently have learned that a child needs as much respect as an adult.

Might others see different points and have different interpretations?

No doubt.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

((((((((((((( Tomi ))))))))))))

God, I can give you that long awaited hug now That had to be rough.... *Gives Tomi Badge of Courage*

Your answers are very insightful and a lot can be done with them.... Now that we have open communication again, we could review these recent answers in more depth between each other and with Wendy, and anyone else..... Way to go girl... I'm so impressed with you right now... feel like I've been holding my breath for week and could finally let it go.......

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

(((((((((((((( Wendy ))))))))))))

Girl you deserve a lot of hugs.... that couldn't have been easy, or fun, but you did it...... What bravery *Gives Wendy the Medal of Valor*

See my post to Tomi.... we're at a crossroads...... Nice to be able to talk again

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Tomi))))))))))))))))))))

Nope, it wasn't easy, and I am glad for a break. The story I started with was something I hadn't talked to anyone about before, and I really hadn't even remembered it in ages. I do like having a chance to get it out and talk through it, even if fun is not the word for it.

So, what did we all learn?

Personally, I'd like to hear from as many people as possible and ask how many have experienced some kind of abuse or maltreatment, and whether or not they attribute any of their current issues or problems they have had in their lives to that, or to their reactions to abuse. Are there any who have never been abused? And if so, how do they attribute the problems that bring them to a support group like this? Does it ever happen that anyone gets through life without experiencing abuse, or is that a universal phenomenon, varying only in the extent to which it occurs and the extent to which it affects our lives?
Wendy

<font color=red>"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." -Harriet Braiker</font color=red>

<center>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}</center>

Thank you for my badge, ny special friend. I've been waiting for it all my life. It means so much coming from you.



<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

<center>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Wendy}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}</center>

My heart is with you so much!! Trying to think of words to convey... but I realize they aren't needed, are they? {{{{Wendy}}}}

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Tomi}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Sometimes words just get in the way. Being understood is worth infinitely more than words. My heart is with you too, and thanks.

<font color=red>"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." -Harriet Braiker</font color=red>

{{{{{{{{Tomi Wendy Darrel}}}}}}}}

You are all doing so terrific! You all are courageous and deserve to be proud of yourselves. I think some of your strength is rubbing off on me.

<IMG SRC="http://store3.yimg.com/I/farmgoods_1759_162359979[/image]

[image]http://members.lycos.co.uk/marsobaby/hugs16.gif">
Heather

"The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change and the REALIST adjusts his sails." ~~~author unknown

awwwwwwww Sweetheart!

Thank you!!!!



<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Hi, September told me about this subject since I have been away for
a while, I hate to interrupt anything. but I have read most of what was
written, and I am replying to your question , I suffered abuse as a child
and right now I am fighting that demon, by talking to my counselor and
psychiatrist.... They both tel me that explains the way I am. I have a
poor self esteem, and other ways that may have a big effect on the
way I have such a hard time getting involved with people, especially
the opposite sex.. I applaud you for fighting your demon....
I am trying, but I know that I can't talk to my father about it has he has
shortened his memory and none of our childhood is as it was. My mother passed away 10 years ago, so I can't confront her either.

I can say that I am afraid of what comes out, and what I am supposed
to do with the gaping whole I feel after spilling my guts .. I feel very
vulnerable and find it very hard to be around my family, considering that
I can't discuss this with them so I have to put on a happy face and
grit my teeth and put on a act... Which is as exhausting as talking about
it.
Bevers

Bevers

Very much liking your ideas

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius