Re: Avatars

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

Society affects me personally, if it doesnt for you, then you wouldn't understand.

<hr></blockquote>

I seriously take exception to that statement, Darrel. What makes you think that I couldn't understand?? Granted, it's pushing one great big "start" button on an old tape that is saying "You're too stupid to understand even if I explained it to you!" It feels as if you don't have the time nor the inclination to give some examples of what you are trying to convey because you'd be wasting your time doing it. It's an afront to the intelligence and understanding I have. How dare you assume that I have absolutely no burden for the injustices and wrongs in society?? If I didn't, I wouldn't be working so hard on writing my book! You think that if it should get published that it might not change some parents attitudes on how they treat their children? Child abuse is more prevalent in society now than it ever has been. It's an injustice to children, the hope for our tomorrows!

If I don't work on myself and the damage that the abuse I received as a child, how can I truthfully and sincerely express what I have learned from it??

I'll hold on to the rest that I have to say until we get through this misunderstanding and clear up a couple of other things, ok?


<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

WHEW!!! I'm glad you cleared that up! I surely would have logged off crying!! hehehe

{{{{{{{{{{Heidu,}}}}}}}}}}} you are too sweet and sensitive a person to say something like that and mean it!

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

((((((((((((( September))))))))))))

I'm sorry... I didn't mean to offend you. I felt this coming.... I deleted and rewrote my response several times... I was a bit offended by a few of your statements and thought rather than trying to sort them out, it would be easier to just let the thread end. You do have a sharp tongue when you want to... that's ok, even that has it's purpose, but few may be able to appreciate it....

I get so frustrated trying to explain why certain things offend me. I never feel that the other party involved is listening to me, and instead becomes pre-occupied with defending themselves. Hence, my invalidation.

First, I did acknowledge the need for self-development before attempting to influence any one, in any way. Re-read my post. You skipped right past this point in rushing to "correct" my thinking.

Second, you referred me back to Rapunzels post to re-read something, I don't even know what, as if I hadn't read it at all in the first place. I did and I thought it was a great post, and if you refer to Fromm, you'll see his theory supports my own statements.

Third, depression is after all, a normal response to incredible conflicts. Depression itself is no fun, and that wasn't my implication. Defeating depression, and the causes which cause it to arise is a triumph for the soul and the solutions generated are a benefit to all, not just the sufferer. My point was that in helping ourselves, we help many. Life is an evolutionary process. Could you imagine the first humans being depressed for not having fire? Instead of wallowing in it, someone found a way to use it. The depression led to a solution we have all benefitted from.

These three points seemed insurmountable to me to make, and I was ready to give up. Thanks for pushing me on. I appreciate your patience, and would appreciate your understanding. We can work thru our disagreements and still both win. We can agree to disagree and still gaet something from each other. What do you say?

((((((((((( September)))))))))) I'm reminded of the "Everyone is your teacher" post. Those that irritate you most have the greatest lessons to impart you. I am learning Sept., don't give up either, ok?

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

(((((((((Heather))))))))))

Thank you for the validation... you got my point.

It means a lot to me

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

{{{{{{{{{{{Tomi}}}}}}}}}}}

I am going to take your tape hun and give it the ol heave ho off that cliff What do you think? I have some of them here too that I think would be great company to it. Let's gather some up and head to the beach.


Heather

"The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change and the REALIST adjusts his sails." ~~~author unknown

{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}



Heather

"The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change and the REALIST adjusts his sails." ~~~author unknown

A month or two ago I was too bitter to see anything positive coming out of depression. Nobody should have to suffer like that. I was resenting the things that happened to me that gave depression the power to take over my entire life since childhood, and considering all that I might be doing right now if I hadn't been limited by all that junk.

Then the lessons that I have been assigned to teach for church started hitting on a common theme. When you teach something you learn it much better than if you just listen to it from someone else, and my lessons very often target something that is a current problem for me, forcing me to examine and usually change my attitude on the subject. Sometiemes it's annoying, but it's always to my benefit.

Anyway, first there was a lesson about adversity and how we couldn't grow or progress without it. In fact, the specific turbulence that we are going through is often tailor made just for us in order to help or cause us to develop to our fullest potential. We probably don't see it that way when we're in the middle of it and adversity keeps piling up on top of us and weighing us down, but later you can look back and see the growth. The message: "Trust God - He knows what He's doing, even when it doesn't seem like it to us at the time."

The next lesson was titled "Be of Good Cheer." That's enough right there to set off my bad attitude. Of course, it's easy to be happy in good times, but if we can have a good attitude about the adversity too, it makes life a lot easier. There was a lot about having inner peace even when the world is anything but peaceful.

Next was a conference with that same theme, "Be of Good Cheer." I didn't teach, but was in the choir. Same basic message but they did a whole lot better job with it than I did. I wrote down a few quotes:

<font color=red>"The problem with most teachers is they think they are the teacher." </font color=red>

<font color=purple> "Happiness is the design of our existence."</font color=purple>

<font color=green>"Ultimate hope and daily grumpiness are irreconcilable."</font color=green>

I have been getting my attitude adjusted little by little. So, okay, Heather, I can see growth in myself that would not have been possible without having experienced depression. I admit it.

Once in a while I even wonder how people can grow and develop without having this experience. Well, I think almost everybody does at least to some extent, and everyone experiences their own kind of adversity. We can have a good attitude and learn from it, or just wallow and be miserable. Maybe being stubborn about it keeps us stuck there until we learn our lesson so we can move on.

I think that examining the problems and what we can learn from them or even how this can help us to make a difference in the world, like we have been doing in this thread, is good and productive and will help us to get the maximum profit from our adversity or experience. This all ties in with the quotes that Heidu posted over in the General section too.

Thanks again for all of your ideas. Thinking about these things is really helping me.

I hope this isn't as full of spelling errors and typos at the rest of what I've been posting lately. I've got mistakes all over. Guess I'm multitasking too much or something. So, I hope you know what I meant, anyway.

<font color=blue>Life is filled with tragedy; if you let it overwhelm you, you cannot enjoy life's innocent pleasures. -Robert Heinlein</font color=blue>

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Septmorn))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))...
I completely understand the points you are making, but I feel too vulnerable to criticizm/rejection right now, (because of my depression), to jump in more than this, but please don't take what was said personally... You KNOW that you are, in fact, a VERY intelligient and articulate person, (with whose opinion on the issue I happen to agree if that makes any difference )... Opening oneself up like in this thread does make trust an issue as well, but you know that you can not only trust those involved in the discussion, (and I believe you can), but, more importantly, you can trust youself to know for you what is right and what is wrong, and that's the most important thing of all, right? Your friend, as ever, Jillers.

<font color=blue>HI FROM PEANUT </font color=blue>

{{{{{{{{Rapunzel}}}}}}}}

I like this...."Maybe being stubborn about it keeps us stuck there until we learn our lesson so we can move on. " That is a lesson in itself

I agree with you in the fact that noone should have to suffer with the grips of depression...noone asks for it. The only thing I like to look at is that if we didn't have these struggles...where would we be? I look at it like a treadmill....going with no direction....and then someday something happens...it could be that you woke up and said that's it - no more...or you felt that cold splash of water on your face and decided then and there.

It is when we want to recover - and I mean really want it...isn't that what these lessons are all about? We learn about ourselves in the process and if we weren't in the grips of this ugly monster...we would have learned nothing.



Heather

"The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change and the REALIST adjusts his sails." ~~~author unknown

{{{{{{{{{{{{Group hug}}}}}}}}}}}}

This thread is going to open wounds as I am sure it already has.....I was just telling that to Tomi (SeptMorn) the other day that I am feeling like something is surfacing within me....can't quite put my finger on it exactly but I am ready for whatever it is

{{{{{{Jill}}}}}}}} thank you for pointing that out like I was trying to in my earlier post....leave it to me though to jumble it up a bit.... I would give my right arm to have as much wisdom as Tomi has in her pinkie finger. I am learning so much from everyone - Tomi, Darrel, Rapunzel and so many others here, truly a great thread.


Heather

"The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change and the REALIST adjusts his sails." ~~~author unknown

Darrel, the only two times that I am aware of being sharp with you was what started this thread and my last post to you. I meant to be sharp! I've apologized somewhat for the first time. At this exact second, this particular point in time, I don't feel I need to apologize for the second time. It's normal to get angry when you feel someone has called you stupid. You didn't do it in so many words, but the feelings and the outcome were the same. (more on this later)

If I have been sharp with you other times, I need to know about it so that I can go back, re-read my words, repharse them in an effort to explain what I meant and then sincerely apologize to you. It would do us and the rest of our readers a disservice if we didn't clarify ourselves and just let something drop. Yes, everyone is your teacher. You and I aren't the only ones gaining something from this. Who knows how many on this board are reading what we post, besides the ones who have had the courage to admit they have visited and better still, had some input. We owe it to them and to ourselves to be clear, concise and direct, don't you think?

I'm sorry if I have come across in a defensive manner to you. That has not been my intention. I've been trying very hard to understand you and where you are coming from and the work you are doing. I'm sorry that I thought your dragon was a personal demon. I understood it that way because I've been taught that Depression Is Anger Turned Inward, therefore becoming something personal/internal.

I'm not exactly sure to what extent I have my own depression under control. That was one of the things I've been trying to figure out; how much of my inaction is due to depression and how much of it is due to past programming (you're too stupid to amount to anything). I thought you were aware of that.

At this very moment, it's beginning to dawn on me that we both feel invalidated. Something worth exploring, either together or on our own.

I know why I always feel invalidated. My mother never believed anything I told her. My needs didn't matter. She had her own ideas of what my needs "should" be... In short, I didn't have a voice. That's why I used to be a screamer, that's why I had to have it my way or no way. Maybe I still have some of those character flaws but "I sure as Hell ain't what I used to be!!" I don't expect you to recognize it because you don't know me. My problem. A problem I'm still trying to overcome. When I complain to my husband that my back hurts, or that my knees hurt, or that I just plain don't feel good, no matter what he says or doesn't say, I know that he doesn't believe me... either that, or he just doesn't care. That goes for my kids, too. Why the heck should I care whether they believe me or not?? I know that I'm in pain and it's my responsibility to act accordingly. Again, that's a product of not being validated when I was growing up.

Speaking strictly for myself, depression for me is not just from the conflicts in my life. It's inherited as well as the anxiety. The events in my life sure haven't helped it, though!

My reason for referring you back to Wendy's post is that I'm afraid that you are worrying too much about external things, afraid you may be wanting to take on more than you can handle. I don't want you to sabotage yourself and your good intentions by overwhelming yourself. The "baby steps" theory has been proven to work with me. "Slow and sure wins the race." I'd rather plod along slowly but surely than to run around like the hare and wind up loosing. (losing? oh, well) I can see now that maybe I was way off on where you are with that. Like I said, maybe we're dealing in apples and oranges. My struggle is internal and yours is external.

I know I've missed some points here. Maybe I'll get back to them later. I haven't given up. I have faith that we can work out our differences. They were expected.

I admire your courage to keep coming back, Darrel, and I admire your patience and kindness. Thank you!

In the writing classes I've taken in college, it was said that it's a gross mistake to start a paragraph with "I." My sincere apologies. Wonder what an English professor say if a psychologist told him that when resolving an issue between two people, "I statements" are best because if you start a sentence with "you", you immediately put the other person on the defensive??


<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

<center><font color=purple>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Heather}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}</font color=purple></center>

Honey, that's what I'm trying to do. You remembered! Right along with the old lady, eh? hahaha ... soon...

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Rapunzel,

Another great post... I really appreciate your input and insight. So objective and genuine. You go Girl !!

I wanted to add to the strength in the face of adversity theme.... Looking back in history, it's been depression, time and again that motivated people of any race, religion or creed to effect change for themselves.

The Muslims rose up against nomadic invaders in the 6th Century B.C.

The Jews rebelled againt the oppresion of the Egyptians.

The Christians rose against the Romans.

History is filled with examples of the oppressed rising against the oppressors. Oppression, depression, repression.... is there a common theme in the root of these words?

In our own country, the patriots rose against unfair taxation.

Native Americans rose against the newly formed Union.

The South rose against the North because they wanted to defend slavery and the North's position depressed the South's economy.

The African Americans rose against depression in both the Civil War and Civil Rights Movement in the 50's.

Hispanics and many other ethnic groups are still involved in activity to become equal member of American society.

Gay people have exerted a movement for fair treatment recently.

In each instance, the people formed groups and organizations to battle oppression and unfair treatment. Each group suffered oppression, depression, and repression. Excluding the final two groups, each persevered in the face of adversity, and those two groups haven't given up yet. The depression was not fun for them either. But it was the catalyst that ignited their empowerment. And in each case, at great cost, inroads were laid, and goals, albeit incrementally, were achieved.

I (starting my paragrap with an I) assert that the dynamics which apply to the group, are similiarly applicable to the individual.

Was it Jung who said "Truth lies in the perception of it." ? We can delude ourselves, we can choose different truths, we could choose Bill Clinton "truth", but, what we recieve is equal measure to what we give. If we lie to ourselves, we will be lied to in return.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

((((((((((September)))))))))

This is what I think I appreciate most about our relationship (can I use the word friendship?). That we can and have come back to the table and reconciled our misunderstandings and different opinions. Thank you

Shortly after I posted, I came to the same realization as you. I wanted to edit my post, but just 15 minutes later I recieved the message that the alotted time to edit had passed. Everything happens for a reason I suppose.

I'm referring to your insight that we both feel invalidated. I'd like to correct that now.

My step-mother was a very invalidating, oppresive and domneering person. Of all the people in my life I might apply the word hate to, she is first on the list. At times, other people do remind me of her, almost always women, and that's when my wounded inner child is triggered. It has'nt happened in quite some time and I thought I'd outgrown it, but I think it's possible you may have triggered it. (Oh great, more stuff to work on!)

Tomi, I know you meant well. AND (another way not to start a sentence) I let my reaction overrule my awareness of your issues. In short, my issues became more important in the moment. Believe me, the post you responded angrily to (and I understand why) was the G-rated version. I left many things out of it because I didn't want to offend you, and that was the mildest I could come up with in the moment.

Here is what I heard in the post you sent that I was upset because of:

"Darrel, you ignorant little idiot. When you become as seasoned as I am about depression, then you may know a thing or two. Re-read Rapunzels post and see if you can find the wisdom I already know everything about. Who do you think you are that you could write a book like I am already doing? You still have a lot to learn sonny boy. "

My reaction was of astoundment. I didn't know where this was coming from and yes, I was irritated as hell by it. I actually became proud, for one sick moment, that I could say "Lady, I have 25 years experience with depression, who do you think you're talking to? I've read the same books you have, I've spent the same countless hours searching and asking myself questions, at times on my knees begging God to just help me, lost family, friends, money, opportunites I'm not even aware of, and I'm still a survivor!" I was offended I think most of all, that I felt and still do, that I've found a lifeline out of my hole, and I believe in it strongly, and for someone who almost lost ability to believe anything anymore, to have this belief, this strong and it feels so right, to have someone shoot it, and me down, with a few words of "I don't think you're ready" realy ticked me off. I wanted to remind you once more that YOU should re-read my post that I'd said I wasn't ready to be a teacher or write a book, but that is my goal.

There, I've got that out of my system. I don't want to hurt you Tomi, you're helping me in profound ways. I don't want you to take what I've just said to heart. It was about ME.

I apologize sincerely that I triggered your wounded inner child.. sincerely, I didn't want to and I felt no pleasure in it. I hope you're not hurting too much and I especially hoipe you have the strength to come back and continue this process.

I know I've crossed some very touchy lines. What I've said is how I felt last night, not today. Not after reading your last post. Yes, we both need validation, I'd like to meet you there.

Iwas not angry with you for screaming at me today. I touched a nerve, and I am sorry. Growth thru pain? I feel like such a selfish *** now. Putting you thru hell to exorcize my demons is not my intention. Are we still getting what we came here for? I hope you're ok Tomi, I really, really do.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((Tomi))))))))))))))))))))))))

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

(((((((((((((((((((Group Hug))))))))))))))) Thanks Heather, very needed

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

<center>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}</center>

We're still okay. My faith in you and in our friendship proved true. I knew we'd hit a really rough bump in the road, but I had faith in your kindness to come back and let us work it out.

<center>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}</center>

Thank you for expressing your feelings to me. I didn't take any of what you said personally. It was a clarification of what had upset you and why. Sorry it was me that had to touch that hurt place that your step-mother created. We both had someone like that in our lives. I understand. As for more stuff to work on, maybe it won't be so hard. Maybe if we work on it a little, we'll both stay aware and with a little hindsight, we'll stay away from those buttons, eh? I hope you know that I wasn't thinking any of the things you thought I meant. Far from it!

Darrel, I didn't hurt for very long so don't worry about me. The anger I felt was a fair price if this has helped you in any way... although I still don't have enough faith in myself to even imagine how it is that I've helped you. AND... (hehehe) you don't have to count the ways... please!

Yes, I'm okay, it didn't hurt for long and I'm back to keep pluggin' along.

Did I ever tell you how much I respect you for your strength to take the blows I hand you and still come back and consider me your friend? Yep! {{{{{{{{{{{{{Darrel}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}



<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

(((((((((((((((((((September))))))))))))))))))

You Rock, my friend Where do we go from here?

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

And, Peanut, thank you for your supportive post as well. ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Peanut)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))!!

<font color=blue>HI FROM PEANUT </font color=blue>

I know how you feel Peanut, sometimes I feel skipped over too but I know it wasn't on purpose. We all love ya lots.
AND I did think your post was very supportive and kind.
You are very special
((((((((((((((Peanut)))))))))))))))))
Heidu

Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending. ~ Carl Bard ~

LOL!! You are very special, too, ((((((((((((((Heidu))))))))))))))!! We'll be our very own fan club, you and I, OK? XOXO!! Peanut

<font color=blue>HI FROM PEANUT </font color=blue>

Gimme a "P"
Gimme a "E"
Gimme a "A"
Gimme a "N"
Gimme a "U"
Gimme a "T"
What's it spell?
PEANUT PEANUT YAYAYAYAYA PEANUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:O)

Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending. ~ Carl Bard ~

<font color=green>YAY, **H**E**I**D**U !!!</font color=green>

***Peanut dumps out the 'chopped liver' she found on the table, and goes to join her friend, HEIDU, for a fun tea party...***

<font color=blue>HI FROM PEANUT </font color=blue>

<center>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jillers}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}</center>

No, no, no, my friend! I didn't skip over you! I posted to you last night but my computer rebelled when it came time to send the post! It actually shut itself all the way off!

I've been trying to respond to all of you that responded to Darrel's and my tiff yesterday! I appreciate each and every one of you!! I truly do! This computer just won't let me. It's dying very quickly! I'm hoping to order a new one either today or tomorrow so please bear with me, ok?

XXXXing my fingers that this post goes through!

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Point taken, my dear Heidu! I've been wearing blinders working on the personal problem I have and not looking around to see what rose I can smell. LOL You're right as always.

<font color=blue>This above all: To thine own self be true. --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

I am not sure which post your referring too???
Heidu

The highest reward for a person's toil is not what they get for it, but what they become by it.
John Ruskin