ostracized

Thanks MJ,

This is new to me. I have had worse episodes, but never before revealed the S thinking, knowing it opens a whole new can of worms. I guess you can't get the the best treatment if you don't tell them these things.

I have enormous coping skills. At least I always have in the past.

Today is cool and clear in Portland, Oregon. It is not quite cold enough to feel wintery, but the sun has that look. When I was in high school and got depressed, like I am now, I would cut school and go to the ice rink in downtown Denver and skate for hours. I was thinking about that today.

Oh! Sht! What a dummy I am sometimes. There goes one of my warning bells that I had not even a fleeting notice of. Ruminating. I did not know I was doing this until I wrote that down above. This is good therapy.

It is funny, there are good memories of depressed times. I loved skating and it was almost only when I was depressed. Some very sad times. I recall wandering through a big snowy empty field thinking about just laying down and sleeping. It was comforting, somehow. So quiet and peaceful with the snow gently swirling around. It does not do that in Portland. We rarely get that kind of snow storm. Here snow is rare. Perhaps one or two times a year, if at all.

I can leave work in 30 minutes. When I get home I am going to clean up the bird room, find something easy to fix for dinner, then take a Xanax instead of a seroquil whatever it is that kicks butt. I can see why Xanax is addictive. A lovely silky warm wrap. Not unlike the one time I smoked opium. don't worry, the doc prescribed it! and I am very cautious. Prescribed the Xanax, not the opium.

Day treatment. I will have to see about that one. Maybe tomorrow with not be obsessed with novel ways to get the police to do the deed to you. Oops. Can't say things like that here! Geez! why the heck not? Can we get an non-family rated section for it?

I came on here a few minutes back and there was one person wanting a chat. I tried. My company firewalll blocked it. It probably logged the attempt and the internet police will be firing me tomorrow. They probably already recorded today's postings here, too. "hello! company cops!" I will use the insanity defense. It is not a stretch.

<font color=blue>[b] Wherever you go, there you are[b]<font color=blue>

I am very cautious about the "s" word around doctors. However when I chose to try to get treatment (and I checked into the hospital) instead of taking the "s" route I made a conscious effort not to be too evasive about it. I wanted to make a sincere effort to get well (otherwise I just would have gone through with my plan) and I didn't, and don't, think that is possible if you are lying to the people trying to help you.

I am still very cautious. I won't ever lie and say I am not thinking about it when I am. I do however keep my discussion of it very wrapped in reason and logic. When they bring it up and I say "yes, I think about it" the next question is usually "do you think you need to be hospitalized?" I have been able to get through each session with a strict promise that I will not hurt myself and that I will call if I feel differently. The state that I am in now is very very bad but I do trust myself to keep that promise and I guess the doctors do to, at least so far. I try to be honest, sometimes only promising 24 or 48 hours and promising to follow up with another call after that period. Obviously if things slid downhill for me I would risk them not believing me. I would prefer to not be in the hospital again, but if it were inevitable I would prefer to check myself in voluntarily.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

I was in a day program and also in an IOP program (Intensive Outpatient Program)

They are different levels of treatment, the most intensive, of course, being an inpatient in the hospital. There they provide and monitor all of your meds and sleep habits, and provide scheduled therapy and meals throughout the day.

When the time comes that you no longer need to be an inpatient (that decision seems to be as likely to be made by the insurance company as by the treatment staff) they have the option of setting you up in a day program. You will be discharged from the hospital but continue to attend daily structured therapy sessions equivalent to what you had in the hospital. Usually at least one meal is included. This is a good option as long as they know you are stable on your meds and being compliant. As long as they know that you are taking your meds at home and are not in danger, the day program gives you similar intensive therapy but also allows you to begin "reclaiming" your life. The comfort and responsibility of living at your own home, the ability to socialize in the evenings and on weekends and to attend other events, shopping, etc.

A step down from a day program is an IOP (Intensive Outpatient Program) which works similarly to the day program but it typically scheduled for 3 hours each day as opposed to the 6 hours that the day program may involve. This gives more "free time" and you might even be able to go to work in the afternoons, etc.

An IOP may be attended daily or only several or even 1 day a week. Often you will start with more days a week and then cut back as the need lessens.

In addition to the therapy, both the IOP and day programs provide daily structure at a time when it may be difficult to motivate oneself.

The next step down would be periodic appointments with a private therapist and psychiatrist, which could be scheduled around the necessities of keeping up with life, and could go on for as long as "maintenance" is required.

Not all "steps" are necessary. When I was released from the hospital I was put into their IOP program on a 5 day-a-week basis. They didn't feel that the full day program was necessary for me, and they also assured me that the 5-day-a-week thing was only temporary, that I would be reduced to 3 days a week and then less, so that I could work on my plan to return to work.

That didn't pan out for me of course, as I tried to return to work on a very easy basis, just for a few hours each afternoon right after the IOP sessions, but was hit with so much anxiety after trying that that I had to step back and apply for disability. That's where I am now, still unable to work after 3 months. And my insurance will no longer pay for IOP sessions, so I am left here in still quite considerable trouble with only sparsly scheduled private sessions to look forward to. That's why I have been trying to attend local support groups a few times a week to fill in the gaps while I try to work through this.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

>>Oops. Can't say things like that here! Geez! why the heck not? Can we get an non-family rated section for it?

I'm still pretty new here and not sure how far the policy extends. Although personally I like the style and personalities at this forum, I have participated in other forums where there are no restrictions against the "s" word... not actually no restrictions, they are allowed to discuss them with specific disclaimers. Usually either there is a separate section for those or specific posts must be marked as such.

I believe the concern isn't the discussion of the topic as much as the concern that it could trigger someone else reading, who is fighting such thoughts on their own, into a worse state. It seems that it is not so much the word that is "monitored" as is the use and context of it. Posts that are very dark and emotional are the ones that get marked as "triggers", this way people can offer support and discuss their feelings but people who are in danger themselves can avoid those posts.

So I wonder here if it is the word itself that is not allowed, or is it only talking about it in an emotional context that might act as a trigger to someone else? Of course the problem there would be where to draw the line.

My guess is that there might be legitimate liability issues involved, especially since this board is run by a doctor but the doctor doesn't specifically monitor the messages here and does not act in an advisory context... he merely provides this space as a "service" to allow us to "meet". If someone were to be triggered by something here and then afterward harmed themselves, there might be some liability claimed against the forum. I'd rather have the opportunity to discuss my depression and respect the forum's right to protect itself, than to not have this forum available at all.

If you think your expression is too limited here please pm me and I can recommend another board. I would hope that you would continue to post here as well though, if nothing else but for my sake. I think bottom line is that a board like this won't serve everyone's needs but other options are available to explore. Not much is "one size fits all" in this world.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

Kvinneakt,

I'm glad that my letter helped you. It probably helped me more to identify all my own warning signs. That felt pretty therapeutic, actually. I really am glad that you are back with us and posting again, as I missed you when you were not here, although I'm sorry that it means you are depressed. I'm the other way around - I'm full of things to say when I'm doing well (unless I'm just too busy) but I tend to withdraw when I'm down.

About the "s" word, I don't remember anyone restricting the use of the word suicide. It isn't censored or anything. Although I have quite an aversion to saying the word out loud, I've talked about suicidal ideation plenty here myself and have never been censured for it. I looked up the policy again (you can see it if you look in Doc John's "Welcome to the Depression Forum" post on the top of the page and click on "What not to post") What not to post includes <font color=blue>"Messages containing suicidal threats or suicidal actions"</font color=blue>. So I interpret that as no suicide threats or reports of suicide attempts. Is that how you see it? Maybe Doc John can clarify it again for us.

I guess it is risky to mention suicide to doctors or therapists, but if you feel that way it is important to tell them. My T must really trust me. I told him I felt like he didn't trust me anymore last month when he was really pushing me about meds and I included my sister (who is a pdoc) in the e-mail conversation where I was trying to explain why I didn't want to be on a prescription. He sent a message to both of us (including my sister) stating that he was concerned because in my last session I couldn't think of a reason to stay alive, etc. - he actually stretched it quite a bit in the e-mail. We had talked about suicidal ideation but I said over and over that I wasn't going to act on it.

Anyway, I guess he must really trust me afterall. He's never brought up hospitalization or anything drastic like that. Maybe he was counting on my husband to watch me, and he also knew I had to finish up the end of the semester stuff. In my case, hospitalization would not be a helpful thing because it would take away the things I'm working on in my life (and I am working on things) and I wouldn't have any reason there to work on getting better. I would be very uncooperative in fact, and probably be constantly looking for ways to break the rules. In real life I'm generally quite well-behaved but I don't think I would care there. Then, there's no psych ward at all here so it would be the state hospital, 3 hours away, so outpatient programs wouldn't work and if somehow I managed to apply and get accepted to graduate school anyway, which would probably be messed up, it would be really awkward in a year or two when I could have internships there.

But from what some of you have said the reactions have been to your disclosures and comparing what I have told my T, I guess I'm lucky. While I like knowing that he cares enough about me to be concerned, too much concern is downright uncomfortable. I did tell him that if he preferred I could not tell him the next time I had that kind of thoughts (telling him really is pretty new to me - I always just kept it in before) but he didn't respond to that (it was by e-mail).

<font color=green>"Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissible" Carl Jung</font color=green>

You have all be so kind and generous with your words and time. Thank you so much. I told my wife tonight that the doc said I should be in treatment. She said do it. I am still reluctant and will wait out the weekend. If the intrusive suicidal thinking resumes, then I will do it. I am so tired. It is all so worthless from these places. It seems like after you have been through this so many times and know it is just going to happen over and over again, that it is not worth the effort. What keeps me from doing the deed is the disaster it causes to others. It leaves the world with 10 times more troubles than it takes away. That is a horrible thing to do to another person, people you love and love you. So I will persist and see this through.

<font color=blue>[b] Wherever you go, there you are[b]<font color=blue>

Kvinn, that outpatient program is good. After beeing hospitalized a year and a half ago, I attended three weeks of it. In Nov. of last year, I still wasn't feeling like I was out of the hole so I attended another three weeks of outpatient therapy. One of the benefits that took me back was that I could talk to my shrink almost every day. They do monitor your meds much better.

Maybe I was very lucky but even when I was in the hospital, it was a very positive thing for me. I look back on that time as one of the more special times in my life. I'm very thankful that was where I wound up instead of any other alternatives.




Wise men still seek Him.

{{{{{{{{{{kvinn}}}}}}}}}}}}

We are kind and caring to you because you give us no other choice . You are a wonderful man who is in a bad spot right now. We are all here for you and will always be there.

You are very lucky to have such a supportive wife who is there for you too. Let people help you and reach out your hand to everyone that is offering it.

Please keep us posted when you can. I know you will come through all of this....you are one of the strongest people I know.


Heather

Thank you all, again. I woke up from noise at 3 am. No sleep after that. Thank g-d the worst of the s thinking has passed. Still keeps popping up, but I can let it go. Drugs help. Taking Xanax. At work and spaced out on it now. I actually have some things to do here today. Why or why won't they just lay me off??? I am going to try to take the stronger meds this weekend when I have no plans. I can then just crawl into a dopey hole and rot peacefully.

<font color=blue>[b] Wherever you go, there you are[b]<font color=blue>

Did it occur to you that they're hanging on to you because they need you... because you're valuable to them... because you provide a service they need? Face it, Kvinn, you have worth.





Wise men still seek Him.