[MattMVS7]

I wish to know if others here were ever in a similar situation as mine right here and completely gotten over their depression in this situation. The situation I'm in that is causing me chronic depression is that I have developed a severe panic disorder in which I am experiencing constant panic attacks one right after the other all day everyday. Knowing that I am in this constant state of panic and that I cannot escape from it has caused me depression. Fortunately, this depression has actually held off (replaced) the fear on the very 1st day I was in this constant state of panic. Unfortunately, this depression is chronic and is always there holding off the fear and unless I have this depression, that will cause the panic to return. I notice that when there are few moments in which this depression goes down, that causes the fear to return. Then, of course, immediately once the fear returns, that causes the chronic depression to take back over and replace the fear.

I notice that a certain level of this depression is necessary to hold off the fear. If it is anything below that, the fear returns. Also, since depression in this case is a response to not wanting to be in a state of fear or panic (and obviously a continuous state of panic for that matter), this is why the depression is always there and always preventing me from being in that situation.

So my question here is since no one in their right mind would ever wish to be in that situation (obviously me here as well), wouldn't that mean the depression will, in fact, always be there for the rest of my life (since, again, depression is a response to never wanting to be in that situation)? I'm hoping that this isn't the case which is why I am here asking if anyone was ever in this exact same situation I'm in and have completely gotten over their depression in that situation.

I realize that if I were to take care of the source of this depression (rid of the panic), that would rid of this depression. But in order for me to do that would require exposure therapy (as I notice that nothing I tell myself or anything else helps). But since exposure therapy requires that you experience panic attacks, this isn't going to happen since the depression is always there preventing me from panicking. And even if the fear somehow eases up on its own over time, unless it goes away completely, the depression will still always be there (as this is what is already always happening). Also, this is not just one thought causing me panic--it is many different thoughts. So even if I were to reduce or get over the fear of one thought, that will leave me with the full-blown fear of all the other thoughts as well (and there are a countless number of them).

Finally, in terms of this depression somehow getting better or even completely going away, how would that ever work given this situation? You already know that depression is something that reduces pleasure activity in the brain which is obviously what leads you into feeling depressed. But I have obviously learned from my experience that it also shuts down the fear response as well. Therefore, is it possible for my depression to remain there in such a way that it no longer reduces any pleasure and I am able to fully enjoy life again, but will keep the fear response shut down?

Unless my depression somehow gets better, I will forever be left with no feelings of pleasure (as this is the situation I'm in now). And I do not see how it would get better because, as I just stated, any level of depression that is below what I'm experiencing now causes the panic to return. And since depression is a response to not wanting to panic, that would mean the depression would have to remain at this level.

[Altered Moment]

If it is true that the anxiety and panic are causing the depression then one would treat the anxiety and panic first. As bad as you describe it it would take meds. Benzodiazapines are very effective for anxiety and panic so if it were me I would get on those to bring the panic down to a manageable level so you would be able to go to therapy and work on core causes.

Of course this would mean seeing a therapist and a psychiatrist.

Yes people have and do overcome these things with lots of help. Currently I am free of depression and anxiety do to meds. I have also worked very hard over the years in therapy and other non med approaches to learn to live with and manage my disease. I cannot personally say I have totally overcome it. Totally overcoming it may be unrealistic. Living in a constant state of panic can be treated pretty easily. If you expect total recovery upfront you are self sabotaging. One step at a time and see what happens.

[waterknob1234]

I agree with Zinco's post. It sounds like you need to treat the anxiety and panic attacks with medication and therapy which would mean going to a psychiatrist and therapist. I have suffered all three in the past year. It has been my experience that anxiety and panic attacks have led me into a state of chronic severe depression. I have recently started treatment from a psychiatrist and a therapist for this. I would think you deserve to have a fulfilled life without panic, anxiety, or depression. I would recommend professional treatment for this condition. Take it one step at a time and best wishes.

[glok]

Hello, MattMVS7. I have read many of your posts which describe the dilemma you once more visit in this post. I do not intent to engage in a discussion of the merits of your hypothesis. My support is to point out the obvious - what you are doing from my perspective is not working. I would not be surprised if you believe otherwise.

If truly you seek to better manage the maladies that you contend plague you, you must be willing to risk making the changes that better management entails. Change is a process. Change is hard work. Are you prepared for the challenge?

I wish you well.

[Alone & confused]

I agree with dealing with the anxiety first. As someone who has had "all kinds of fun" trying to manage my anxiety without meds for many years because my Drs. are less than useless, I've had to learn my own ways of coping. One of which, is simply to acknowledge (in that moment) that it's ONLY my anxiety/panic disorder, that NOTHING I'm fearing is real & nothing is going to happen to me. I tell myself that over & over & that all I have to do is calm down and wait for it to pass. Another thing I learned to do was identify any and all "triggers" that send me into panic mode. Then, either avoid, eliminate, or confront them. On some occasions the only way for me to conquer my fears was to face them head-on, which showed me how small the things I was afraid of really were, and that gave me strength I didn't know I had! But meds are a good place to start. Fear itself cannot "hurt" you. It only has the power we allow it to have over us

[Forever hopeful]

Hi Matt, well I responded to your other thread if depression never goes away. Happy to see you explain more of your situation. I don't have the energy right now to repeat my whole story but I hope what I say gives you encouragement. All three run in my family for centuries yes I said centuries that being said. Panic disorder/ GAD Agoraphobia was the first strongest components for me at my worse I was afraid of a plant in my bedroom which I was pretty much confined too. After on my own trying to avoid all things that triggered the panic. The point I am trying to make is it can be overcome there is nothing really that I can't do anymore. I took meds , learned meditation , did CBT, what really helped push through that wall is when I finally started to use Ativan in my exposure therapy after I learned all the positive CBT skills that worked for me. It made the acute panic attacks more manageable while slowing me down enough to master CBT.

Fast forward to the present those issues are very much under control . Do I still have spontaneous panic attacks ? Yes . Do they still scare me ? Yes no one likes them . Can I handle them? Yes!!! I have learned to better identify my triggers, if I know I may enter a situation that I don't encounter to often I will use my helper Ativan for that situation.

I don't have attacks often I do still get anxiety everyone does it's a part of life.. Could that anxiety get out of control with the irrational thoughts that come to my mind with it of course but because of CBT. I have learned to cut and continue to cut those thoughts off before it gets to the point of panic. It becomes automatic if I am over tired, stressed, pms'ing then I need to be gentle with myself as I am more prone...

Like yourself I would have never wished it on my worst enemy nor did I ever in my life at that time think I could overcome as far as I have.

I have a thread on the Med forum as to where I am now in this recovery process with the depression part of it . If you think it might help you to know . The thread is called 51 days med free.

I feel for I truly do as I have been there myself I know that can be hard to believe when you feel so bad that anyone can understand how wakeful it is but trust we do. Many many if us .

[MattMVS7]

I need to know something very important here. Each and every day I actually notice that my depression has made a significant improvement each and every one of those days. But I am up to the point where I no longer feel what one would call depression (hopelessness). Now I am at the point where I instead constantly (24/7) feel no pleasure at all and I notice that this is something that is not improving at all as days go by. This lack of pleasure is too much and I feel that because it is not improving like how my depression did, I feel that there is a possibility that it will remain this way for the rest of my life. If I knew that this would be something that would last for the rest of my life, I would end my life.

As I stated before, a certain level of depression is necessary to prevent me from experiencing this fear and it would definitely seem that this level of depression that I'm at now is that level. If it were to go anywhere below that level, that will cause the fear to return which is obviously the reason why it is stuck at this level and not getting better. Therefore, how is it ever supposed to get better in this situation? This is the reason why I ask if people in my exact situation have had their level of depression that was necessary to hold off their fears somehow get better. Again, it does not matter how much I address the source of my depression (the fear). As long as I have the fear (even if it is at a very low level), that will cause the depression to still remain there holding off the fear.

[Forever hopeful]

Matt have you read what I wrote above.. No it does not stay. I feel for you dude I do having been there myself... And being caught in that visious cycle of fear. Since you don't have any faith being atheist you need to put some faith in yourself. Our bodies can not or were not designed to stay at the constant level of your worst panic it comes down. Might feel real off after awhile but it ends. Try to use some of the time you use to play video games on reading educating yourself on aniety disorders. Self help books on it.

F.E.A.R = False Evidence Apprearing Real

[MattMVS7]

Originally Posted by Forever hopeful

Matt have you read what I wrote above.. No it does not stay. I feel for you dude I do having been there myself... And being caught in that visious cycle of fear. Since you don't have any faith being atheist you need to put some faith in yourself. Our bodies can not or were not designed to stay at the constant level of your worst panic it comes down. Might feel real off after awhile but it ends. Try to use some of the time you use to play video games on reading educating yourself on aniety disorders. Self help books on it.

F.E.A.R = False Evidence Apprearing Real

Yes, I have read what you wrote, but I still question whether my depression will get better and I am going to explain why. When I started to have this panic disorder, I realized that there could be the possibility of me experiencing many panic attacks all throughout the day each day (though this is something that could be false and could only just be a few panic attacks per day instead). However, it could also be something true--we don't know. But this is a risk that my mind was not willing to take and decided to shut down all emotions in order to prevent the fear from happening, leaving me in a state where I feel no pleasure at all. I feel that not even this state I'm in will even get better because my mind is also not willing to take the risk of having it get better because of the possibility (whether true or false) that if it does get better, that will no longer hold off the fear and cause the panic to return because if my emotions return (in this case, pleasure), then my panic will also return since panic is also an emotion.

[Altered Moment]

I will say again. Panic attacks and anxiety can easily be treated with medication. According to your theory this would alleviate the depression. If you were to be treated with meds for anxiety it would stabilize you enough to work on underlying issues with a therapist. You would not have to stay medicated forever.

[MattMVS7]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I will say again. Panic attacks and anxiety can easily be treated with medication. According to your theory this would alleviate the depression. If you were to be treated with meds for anxiety it would stabilize you enough to work on underlying issues with a therapist. You would not have to stay medicated forever.

But as I stated before, it does not matter how much the fear goes down, my mind has decided to completely shut down all emotion anyway. So even if the fear were to get better, the fact of the matter is that my emotions will still remain shut down as they are now. This is because my mind has decided that since the fear is the problem, to completely shut it down and to do that would also require a complete shutdown of my pleasure as well. So, again, it does not matter how much the fear is addressed. My fear will still remain fully shutdown and obviously my pleasure too as a result. So even though my fear is the source of my depression, what really needs to be addressed is not the fear, but the depression. But based on my reasonings here, I do not see how it is going to get any better now. If you somehow think so anyway, then please provide a scientific explanation as to how.

[Altered Moment]

I am confused by your analysis. You say the depression is your mind reacting to the fear and panic as a way to protect itself. If the fear is alleviated your mind has no need for the depression. Why do you assume your mind will stay permanently emotionally shut down. This thinking is not very scientific.

From a scientific point of view depression and anxiety and panic often go hand in hand. It is very hard to sort out which causes which or if they just come as one big clump. A professional would seek to treat both the anxiety and depression at the same time. From a scientific point of view it is proven that many people do overcome depression and anxiety and once again perceive pleasure. You seem to have ruled this totally out as a possibility. To say it is impossible for you is not logical. You do not know the future and you would have to try all the available options.

[MattMVS7]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I am confused by your analysis. You say the depression is your mind reacting to the fear and panic as a way to protect itself. If the fear is alleviated your mind has no need for the depression. Why do you assume your mind will stay permanently emotionally shut down. This thinking is not very scientific.

From a scientific point of view depression and anxiety and panic often go hand in hand. It is very hard to sort out which causes which or if they just come as one big clump. A professional would seek to treat both the anxiety and depression at the same time. From a scientific point of view it is proven that many people do overcome depression and anxiety and once again perceive pleasure. You seem to have ruled this totally out as a possibility. To say it is impossible for you is not logical. You do not know the future and you would have to try all the available options.

Now first of all, the only way to know if my fear is alleviated in the first place is for the depression to ease up in order to see how much fear returns if any. But I do not see how that is going to happen since my mind is never going to take that risk. And even if the depression were to somehow go down and just a little bit of fear were to return, even if this fear is something that is almost totally alleviated and very little, my mind will still view the possibility of having panic attacks throughout the day and will still keep the depression there as a result. Second, as I just explained here, despite what you said which is that if the fear is alleviated then there would be no need for the depression, even if the fear is something extremely small, that would still keep the depression there based on the explanation I have just given here. Therefore, I still do not see how the depression will get better and still need a scientific explanation of how it will get better (if it even will).

Also, I am already aware that there are many people with chronic and severe depression and have gotten better, but I can't help but keep thinking that my situation is somehow different that will leave me with this depression which will last my entire life and never get better. The reason I think this is not only because all of my reasons stated so far, but also because depression in this case is a response when your mind recognizes something as being a problem or something as a possible problem. Depression eases up when your mind no longer recognizes that thing as being a problem or a possible problem. But no matter how much coping skills I acquire and such, the possibility of having many panic attacks everyday is, in fact, something that my mind views as a possible problem and I do not see how that will ever not be perceived as a possible problem. Having many panic attacks each day would be something horrific and I do not see how it would ever be possible for you to be perfectly fine with that and not view that as a problem. Therefore, this is why I feel that this depression will forever remain there because of the fact that I will forever view that as a possible problem and to forever keep the fear shutdown.

[pbutton]

I also have panic disorder. This type of anxious, circular thinking can be worked through with meds and therapy. It's hard, but it's possible to defeat panic attacks. At my very worst, it seemed like that could not possibly be true, but I assure you, meds and therapy can help if you give them a try. No matter what "special" reason your anxiety is telling you will make it not work for you.

[Altered Moment]

If your depression and anxiety were successfully co treated, meaning the depression lifted and you did not experience panic attacks, then your mind would have concrete evidence that it is possible to live a life without them. Through meds and therapy the thinking patterns and defense mechanisms you now have would be challenged. They may even be proven false. You will never know unless you challenge them.

Of course a life of constant depression or everyday panic attacks would be horrible. Many of us here know it all to well. The point is to challenge your belief that it will never change.

[MattMVS7]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

If your depression and anxiety were successfully co treated, meaning the depression lifted and you did not experience panic attacks, then your mind would have concrete evidence that it is possible to live a life without them. Through meds and therapy the thinking patterns and defense mechanisms you now have would be challenged. They may even be proven false. You will never know unless you challenge them.

Of course a life of constant depression or everyday panic attacks would be horrible. Many of us here know it all to well. The point is to challenge your belief that it will never change.

I am not totally believing that my depression will never get better, but I view it as a strong possibility. Also, I notice that over time, my fear does not get better which means I might be treatment resistant in terms of panic disorder. So what then if I am treatment resistant in terms of panic disorder and it doesn't get better? Will that also mean my depression won't get better based on all my reasonings here?

[Altered Moment]

When you say treatment resistant that very much depends on what treatments you have tried. Benzodiazapines have a very successful track record on the treatment of anxiety and panic attacks. They have there draw backs but compared to everyday constant panic attacks the risks would be worth it in my view.

What treatments have you tried for the depression/ anxiety/ panic attacks???

[MattMVS7]

Now I have another very important question here which is that for many people with chronic depression like me, their depression does get better but only to a certain point and they then have to learn to live with that remainder. But what if I have reached that point already? If that's the case, I would end my life.

[Forever hopeful]

You will never know until you continue to try and use every resource to you . You won't know till then . I have to run big big event for me but I will respond more ok. Hang in there. Sounds like your anxiety disorder has you running worrisome circles on your depression. For now just try be. Go on you tube find a nice meditative relaxation and practice that hugs to you

[Altered Moment]

I cannot argue that for many people we have to learn to live with and manage the best we can with it. It is true for me. That does not mean I never experience pleasure. I do. I am not always in depression.

You are still avoiding the question of what treatments you have tried. For sure benzos work on anxiety and you might get lucky with an antidepressant. Therapy with it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MattMVS7]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I cannot argue that for many people we have to learn to live with and manage the best we can with it. It is true for me. That does not mean I never experience pleasure. I do. I am not always in depression.

You are still avoiding the question of what treatments you have tried. For sure benzos work on anxiety and you might get lucky with an antidepressant. Therapy with it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is not what we should be talking about right now. This is a very serious situation that needs to be addressed instead because I am completely unable to experience pleasure (as in, this ability has been completely wiped out permanently). I never experience even a brief moment of pleasure even once.

[Forever hopeful]

Hey Matt , I'm back and guess what I had the most pleasurable awesome evening I'm ecstatic!! Why did I start my response like that well if you remember by what I wrote in previous post the one where I couldn't leave my bedroom and was even scared of a HOUSE PLANT. The point I am trying to make and I think I can say for the majority of us have felt no one could feel worse than I do, no ones panic, depression could be as bad as mine. I and by what I read a lot of us are trying to get you to challenge those thoughts and use EVERY possible positive resource you can . Anything worth having will take work weather it's pleasurable or not. Anxiety disorders are the most treatable of all mental health issues.

Baby steps it will take but each step forward like a baby will get you to the off and running.
I can not stress enough how much I understand know personally where you at but I also can't stress enough that you can recover. Keeping it real I will let you know it won't mean once recovered that you won't have times you will struggle but I can promise once you fully get treatment it will never be as bad. I can not urge you enough to find a therapist who's specialty is depression/ anxiety disorders, get your meds adjusted as they appear to not be as effective as the can be. Find out if any where in your area have the 12 week CBT grouped . The groups are small and usually run by a therapist and recovered person. Work the program. Read read read self help books on these subjects I can give you a list starting with a easy to read ones that I have used. Don't sweat which came first anxiety panic more often than not co- exist but that doesn't change how it is treated . I used everything I could to overcome it learned deep muscles relaxation that I still use so calming and peaceful. Proper breathing techniques you would think we all know how to breath properly since birth but it gets lost sometimes. Your struggle really touches me as it reminds so much of myself. I would like to hear you come back with a reply of the things you are doing or looking into to get you back to you. again I will leave one of my favourite quotes that helped me and reminded me that my thinking was faulty.

F.E.A.R= False Evidence Appearing Real

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by MattMVS7

This is not what we should be talking about right now. This is a very serious situation that needs to be addressed instead because I am completely unable to experience pleasure (as in, this ability has been completely wiped out permanently). I never experience even a brief moment of pleasure even once.

I realize it is a very serious situation. I understand it as I have been there many times. I am attempting to address this very serious situation. You say "this ability has been completely wiped out permanently", this is a false statement. The issue of treatment is very much relevant to the seriousness of the situation.

[MattMVS7]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I realize it is a very serious situation. I understand it as I have been there many times. I am attempting to address this very serious situation. You say "this ability has been completely wiped out permanently", this is a false statement. The issue of treatment is very much relevant to the seriousness of the situation.

Thank you for trying to help me feel better by saying this (though I am unable to feel any sense of comfort or anything at the moment). But here is a revised and a more well explained version of my situation for anyone to address:

I am experiencing something far worse than depression. It's not a feeling of hopelessness (depression), it is a complete inability to experience any enjoyment or pleasure and there is not a single brief moment (even a few seconds) where I am able to experience at least some level of pleasure. This is not a matter of "I may have some loss of pleasure, but at least I am still able to experience a little bit of pleasure to make the best of my life." This is something catastrohpically serious. I am completely unable to experience pleasure 24/7 (as in, this ability has been completely wiped out permanently). I never experience even a brief moment of pleasure even once. At least during even my worst moments of depression I was at least able to have moments of some pleasure. But this form of "depression" I'm having now does not allow this at all.

This is the result of me having a severe panic disorder in which I was experiencing many panic attacks every day. Knowing that I am in this constant state of panic and that I cannot escape from it has caused me depression. Fortunately, this depression has actually held off (replaced) the fear on the very 1st day I was in this constant state of panic. Unfortunately, this depression is chronic and is always there holding off the fear and unless I have this depression, that will cause the panic to return. The depression started out as feelings of strong hopelessness which actually allowed many moments of pleasure (something unstable with highs and lows). But now, this depression has stabilized into something far worse in which I no longer feel hopeless, but also feel no pleasure whatsoever. However, I am starting to feel very hopeless now knowing that I no longer experience pleasure. But this feeling of hopelessness does not cause me to destabalize once again and have moments of highs and lows in which I am able to experience some pleasure again. I am stuck this time feeling no pleasure.

I notice that when I first had this chronic depression, when there were few moments in which this depression goes down, that causes the fear to return. Then, of course, immediately once the fear returns, that causes the chronic depression to take back over and replace the fear. This time, there are no such moments or even any moments of pleasure and now this depression is something completely chronic.

Although I do not totally believe that my depression will never get better to the point where I will be able to enjoy things again, I do view it as a strong possibility that it will never get better and I question whether my depression will get better and I am going to explain why. When I started to have this panic disorder, I realized that there could be the possibility of me experiencing many panic attacks all throughout the day each day (though this is something that could be false and could only just be a few panic attacks per day instead). However, it could also be something true--we don't know. But this is a risk that my mind was not willing to take and decided to shut down all emotions in order to prevent the fear from happening, leaving me in a state where I feel no pleasure at all. I feel that not even this state I'm in will even get better because my mind is also not willing to take the risk of having it get better because of the possibility (whether true or false) that if it does get better, that will no longer hold off the fear and cause the panic to return because if my emotions return (in this case, pleasure), then my panic will also return since panic is also an emotion.

Also, I am already aware that there are many people with chronic and severe depression and have gotten better, but I can't help but keep thinking that my situation is somehow different that will leave me with this depression which will last my entire life and never get better. The reason I think this is not only because all of my reasons stated so far, but also because depression in this case is a response when your mind recognizes something as being a problem or something as a possible problem. Depression eases up when your mind no longer recognizes that thing as being a problem or a possible problem. But no matter how much coping skills I acquire and such, the possibility of having many panic attacks everyday is, in fact, something that my mind views as a possible problem and I do not see how that will ever not be perceived as a possible problem. Having many panic attacks each day would be something horrific and I do not see how it would ever be possible for you to be perfectly fine with that and not view that as a problem. Therefore, this is why I feel that this depression will forever remain there because of the fact that I will forever view that as a possible problem and to forever keep the fear shutdown.

I feel that it does not matter how much the fear goes down, my mind has decided to completely shut down all emotion anyway. So even if the fear were to get better, the fact of the matter is that my emotions will still remain shut down as they are now. This is because my mind has decided that since the fear is the problem, to completely shut it down and to do that would also require a complete shutdown of my pleasure as well. So, again, it does not matter how much the fear is addressed or how much the fear is eased up (even to a point where the fear is very close to nothing). My mind will still preserve the message that the possibility of having many panic attacks each day could be a possibility. Because of this, my fear will still remain fully shutdown and obviously my pleasure too as a result. So even though my fear is the source of my depression, what really needs to be addressed is not the fear, but the depression. But based on my reasonings here, I do not see how it is going to get any better now. If you somehow think so anyway, then please provide a scientific explanation as to how.

Finally, I have another very important question here which is that for many people with chronic depression like me, their depression does get better but only to a certain point and they then have to learn to live with that remainder. But what if I have reached that point already? There would be no way I could live a life of no pleasure like this and I would have to resort to having electric convulsive therapy which is a shock to the brain, or having a lobotomy which is a brain procedure that takes away who you are as a person, but is something very likely to bring back my pleasure to a degree that is livable or even completely for that matter.

[Scottishmist]

Some years ago I became very depressed and I had so many fears and anxieties that I wouldn't leave the house for months. Once treated for an anxiety based depression I came back to normal again. It was a living hell being in that place but remember there IS a way out. Talk to your doctor. Good luck