It looks like my DIL is at it again! :(

I've finished Autumn's fairie costume and emailed son/DIL to let them know. It's been 4 days since they read the email and I've had no response. Apparently I'm on her black list again because both hubby and I got upset with my son because he cancelled yet AGAIN when he was supposed to come over and finish the tile work on my kitchen.

If it was just son and DIL, I wouldn't think twice about it, wouldn't think about trying to contact them and I probably wouldn't miss them much since it's tough to deal with users, even if you love them. It's mostly my granddaughter and grandson that I'm going to miss. It's the worry about what they're doing to their little heads as they go through life acting as if the world owes them and if they can't take something from me, they cut me out of their lives. Why do they have to put the kids in the middle????

How upset did you get at him? Did you say anything that you can see them being pissed off about?

Let's see a picture of the costume, btw! I didn't know you can make costumes!

I got pretty angry at him, LMo, but I waited until I cooled down before I wrote him. It's going on 7 months that he keeps cancelling coming over to finish the tile. It's only natural that he'd be mad at me because I lovingly pointed out some serious character flaws that he's taken on from his wife. I didn't raise him like that. If it was only him, I wouldn't have to worry. His wife, however, is another matter. The only time I get to see the kids is if there's something in it for HER... like MONEY? This isn't the first time she's done this.

Speaking of money, my son promised to do some work around here because almost a year ago, he borrowed $600 supposedly for rent and wanted an extra $200 for a dog for his wife. I figured if he couldn't afford rent, they sure couldn't afford a dog! Besides, she wasn't letting me see the kids then, either, so I said no to the extra $200. A couple weeks later, they had a new AKC Boston Terrier pup! They go for about $800. Like I started to say, he was supposed to work off the $600 and the tile job was part of it. That was almost a year ago! ggrrrrrrr

September Morn -- I sympathize with your anger. My brother treats my mom like s**** and she's in her eighties. She'll complain to me and say, "But don't say anything to him. I don't want him to be upset." His daughter was raised not to acknowledge in any way my mother or me as her grandmother and aunt.

My brother didn't speak to us for 7 years bec. his now ex-wife didn't like us, so that's why mother is so scared that he might not speak to her again. I cried over that a long time ago. I'm done crying. My mother feels so hurt that she missed seeing her one and only grandchild grow up (she's 27 now), so I can understand how you feel about the grandkids. I don't think mom ever got over this.

Your son is being a big poopyhead. So there.

Know what you mean. I have a daughter that hasn't spoken to me in 7 yrs, too. I've pretty much given up on her and her two sons. Hubby keeps me up on what's going on with them because she still speaks to him and her syblings. It's been a tough row to hoe, for sure! But at least, she doesn't play games. She's consistant.

Don't know what I'm going to do about this DIL. What kills me is what she's doing to the kids, especially my granddaughter. Last time DIL pulled this, I had an opportunity to assert myself and interacted with my granddaughter. I saw the hesitation in her eyes as she started to run towards me. Since then, when I tell her I love her, I make sure to say that NOTHING will ever change that, even if there will be times we won't be able to see each other. What's difficult to believe is that my son lets it happen! He was the only one that talked until he was blue in the face when my daughter first shut me out of her life. He was the only one with the courage of his convictions and didn't go to family gatherings if I wasn't invited! Now he's letting his wife pull the same thing. I just don't know!

LOL "Poopyhead" is MILD to what I've been calling him to myself!

Sis Tomi,
What a jerk they both are being!! You do not deserve this to be happening to you. What are they thinking by putting their children in the middle of all of this. Talk about manipulative.
You should play their game. If they want to be this way then fine, but just remember this the next time they come looking for money or a favor. Even if he is your son..tough love sucks.

Stay strong,
Jessica

aw gee Sept... this is tough... lol having a family is tough.

I haven't seen my grandkids in eons... the only one I made a connection with is a granddaughter... the last visit maybe 3 or 4 years ago...

my son and his wife stopped in only 2 kids then... they wouldn't let Brittany sit with me or her greatgrandmother... she was sat between them. The baby was in high chair. My son had already said something to his son (baby) about being bad... because he kept dropping the stuff given to him (DUH) I countered him, sweetly, Babies aren't bad... babies can't be bad...

then they ordered the highest price steak for the little girl... who didn't want it. She began coloring in the book with crayons I had brought for her ... they had nothing for her to do and they were travelling in the car? oh well... she was so intent that as she turned the book, she knocked some crayons off the table... my son and his wife both went bezerk... YOU better pick them up! I was calm and appalled at the same time and said half sarcastically, NO --- she's gonna leave them on the floor so she has nothing to color with... the next thing she did NOTHING wrong, and my son suddenly turned to her and said, if you don't behave I'm gonna take you out and beat you.

I 'd had enough and I piped up loudly YOU WILL NOT!! It shocked everyone at the table. I continued, THAT"s MY granddaughter and you won't do that to her! She kept coloring but sneaked a look up at me and had the kewlest smile on her face. I only hope that WHEN she runs away from home, she'll know where to come!

I can only guess that my son learned this from his dad, and his wife, well I know her parents were abusive...

So hang in there, make contact when you can, confront them as sweetly as you can and be consistent yourself. Children see this... You have a tough demeanor at times... but theres a lot of love underneath. Don't be afraid to show it.

Huh! Jess, I thought that I wouldn't be playing their game if I stopped giving. That's exactly what I plan to do. Next time they want something, "Sorry! No can do!" But they've got the leverage; the kids. No money, no kids. My DIL is definitely manipulative... and sneaky! Don't know if my son knows it yet or not... or will admit to it. It's probably going to take some time. It took me 11 years to figure out my ex was manipulative and mentally ill! Oy vey!

Sept

big (((((((((hugs)))))))))) and smackers. What a %@#%#$^ thing to do to you! Want me to come kick their butts? I'll walk there, barefoot, across hot coals....

Take Care of yourself lady!
Kimberly.

(s-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-g-g-h-h-h-h-h!) Yep. Know what you're talking about. I've experienced basically the same thing with my own family. There have been plenty of times that my son has threatened to "beat" Autumn. I've asked him "When did I ever threaten you like that? When did I ever hit you?" Somehow his memory seems to fail him because his standard answer is "Plenty of times!" Funny how he can't remember even one specific time! If I say "That's MY granddaughter and you won't treat her that way when I'm around!" all I get is a smirk and a "She's my daughter first!" They seem to think that gives them the right to do whatever they want with the kids!

I'm hoping that my two grandsons that aren't allowed to see me will remember where they're loved and treated with respect when it comes time for them to run away... and they will run away! Maybe Autumn will, too. Like they say "What goes around, comes around."

Ok... here's a copy of the letter I sent him: (Both for you and Sky to read.)

John,

Yeah, you’re going to hear from me, too. As your mother, it’s my responsibility to tell you where I think you are failing as a man and as the son I raised. Your dad and I learned early on as children that promises are to be kept, not broken; that our word is to be honored by the person that speaks it and that a commitment is written in stone. We brought you up believing this way and expected you to behave this way as much as possible.

This set of beliefs isn’t to be abandoned when a person leaves their childhood home. It’s a value that should be carried throughout ones life. A man is only as good as his word and your word to us, your parents, isn’t any good at all. By your actions, you have proven to be an untrustworthy man. The wind bends you in whatever direction it happens to be blowing, just like grass. A man shouldn’t be bendable. He should stand strong like a mighty oak. The values he learned as a child both from his parents and from his religious upbringing should be carried in his heart and his conscience throughout his lifetime.

As a grown man with a family and a job, you should no longer have the expectation that Mom and Dad will bail you out of whatever trouble you happen to find yourself in. If you wish to become a self-sufficient, honorable, mature man, YOU need to take the reins in your own hand and see that your family works towards that goal in unison.

Your dad and I have bent over backwards to help you because we know that you took on your role as family man way too early. The problem we are finding, though, is that there is no movement forward from you. We keep making “loan” after “loan” with no thought as to when or even that we’re going to be paid back in money. The money your dad and I have is supposed to last us the rest of our lives. There is no way to get it back or to replace it. When it’s gone, it’s gone. Up until now, we didn’t mind helping you out because we still had some hope that you would come through and at least do some work for us in return for what we’ve done for you. But it appears that you only mean to take and not return in any way. In some circles that is called being a “looter.” You take emotions, money, energy and never give anything back in return. That is expected from a child, not from a man. These expectations are healthy and normal in any adult relationship, even between simply friends. The concept is as simple as “learning to share.”

Because I love you,
Mom

Pick away.

Sept:

I have to say it was very well written and didnt' sound angry at all. Just simply telling how you feel. But now I don't think you're to blame because they are being total a-holes when all you did was share your feelings! You have every right to be angry and disappointed with how he is treating you. I know I would be. (((((((HUGS)))))) to you dear.

Kimberly

ooooohhhhh (((Sept)))

I hate to say this, but I can see why you haven't had a response from your son. You did a great job of trying to be tactful but straightfoward, and there is a LOT of good advice in there. But, there are two things that are rubbing me wrong:

1) Word choice of "failed as a man and as a son". Regardless of what he intended, those words probably shot right through him and likely caused him to stop reading the rest of the letter. Maybe you could have said "I am disappointed" or something... but the word "fail" has a really harsh judgemental effect

2) This is not about the letter, but about what you keep saying about DIL... "I lovingly pointed out some serious character flaws that he's taken on from his wife". I am dealing with this myself from your son's perspective. I know that my dad hates my fiance, and he brings it up every chance he can. He blames my fiance for MY shortcomings... and that's not fair. I am an adult and only I am responsible and accountable for my actions. If I mess up, I don't blame my fiance for it, and my dad shouldn't either. It pains me greatly when my dad does it, and he's obviously trying to drive enough of a wedge between us in order to get me to leave him. Look, I know that he doesn't approve of my decision and that you don't approve of your son's, but until he decides he wants out, your criticism of his wife is just serving to alienate you from them. It's not HER fault... it's yours (I'm praying you don't hate me for saying that). Why would she want to be around you when you obviously dislike her so much? Why would she want to bring her kids to see someone who obviously doesn't respect Mommy? Why would your son want to spend time with someone who pushes him to leave the wife who he seems to love and spend the rest of his life as a single dad?

Sept -- you know that I respect you so much and consider you dear to me. I hope you're not mad at me for saying this, but I feel I can share a perspective which may help you see his point of view.

I mean, there is no excuse for him borrowing money and then not finishing the tile work. None. But don't blame the DIL, and I know how resentful you must feel, but try not to use the word 'fail'. It's one of the ugliest words a parent can say to their child.

Please tell me if you think I'm completely off-base and need to mind my own business. Your friendship means more to me than this one particular issue.

Sweety, you're not off base at all! You're very dear to me, too, and I respect you as a person. That's why I posted the letter, was to get your perspective. You're right! The word "fail" is very strong and very painful to receive. Don't know what I was thinking. I probably wasn't. I'll really have to give it some serious thought about how to soften that, if I can.

You can see, however, that I didn't say anything about his wife in the letter. I posted that here. It's a mistake my mother made with me and unfortunately, I've made that same mistake before, myself. Been trying really hard to change it.

ARGH! Ok. I get the point about the sharp words now. "Attitude" as Sky calls it.

Excuse me while I go kick myself in the butt.

Damn! I hope I can come up with something... (help?)

Ok, I re-read my letter to John and now I'm possitive I didn't mention his wife and her family. The dishonesty, manipulation and cancelling out on his commitments IS something he gets from his wife, but I didn't say that. I don't think I need to. He can judge for himself. Ok... that's me.

As for what your dad is doing, I've witnessed that and been the receiver of it. My mom hated my ex and blamed everything I did wrong or she THOUGHT I did wrong on him. Basically what your dad is doing to you. It only served to drive that wedge between HER and me, not my then boyfriend, later husband. It used to hurt me so much! In retospect, there's nothing I could have said or done to make her stop. The really scary thing is, that now I can see everything she said painfully clear. She was 200% correct! The only saving grace from that union are my two oldest kids. I lost my daughter to her father's mental illness, but my oldest son is my rock. He never lets me down on special days, he bought me this little tin can I live in and he keeps tabs to see that everything is going okay with me. What would I do without him?? (sigh!) Ok. Enough of that.

ARGH! Frustration!

Thanks for being there for me, Hun. You got through to me where others might not have. That's special.

Love ya!

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Kimberly}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Thanks for the affirmation. I really needed that. And yes, they're being A--holes for putting the kids in the middle. Just don't know if there's any way of making them understand that the babies aren't pawns in a power game, ya know?

Hi September -- I agree that saying "failed as a man" is a bit too strong. Surely there are other ways that he has success as a man. He holds down a job, I presume that the children are taken care of, he has a home, etc.

The other thing I wondered is whether this is the first time the matter has been addressed or if you've already had numerous talks with him. Reminding him about the tile work is one thing. It is another to put it out there, saying: You know, your dad and I lent you that money in return for the tile work. I'm very disappointed that you didn't keep your commitment to us. " Etc.

I have a very bad habit of hiding behind letters because I am too scared to handle confrontation. After 56 odd (oh, yes, very odd indeed) years of this, I can say that about 85% of the time my beautifully written letter causes more problems.

My current and previous T are trying to help me to deal with setting boundaries inpersonally. Not all of my efforts are turning out the way I want them to.

But, on the basis of the way that I've blown situations out of proportion and made them even worse than they already were with my notes, I would suggesst (a) keep it as short as possible and (b) sleep on it -- as many night as you can stand to before you mail it. Once it's out there -- you can never put the jello back in the box.

Good luck with this, September.

PS -- I'm glad you're not mad about "poopyhead." I started to be concerned that I'd written out of turn.

Sis Tomi,
I agree with the changes that everyone suggested. I think that the letter is a wonderful idea! Do you think that at some point you could sit down and have a talk with him about what is going on?

Jessica

Sis Tomi,
I agree with what you said about not wanting violence around your grandaughter. It never fails to amaze me on how people believe it is their "right" to hit their children.
In our society you cannot walk around and hit someone just because you feel like it. You would go to jail...except when it comes to our children.
It seems that whenever I talk to people about not spanking they say to me "They are my kids and I can do whatever I want with them." When did our kids become our property? We expect our children to grow up to respect us but how can we expect that when by hitting them we simply instill fear in them?
Sorry if I seem as though I rant but this issue just frustrates me...

Jessica

I talked to my son. He told me he had gotten a letter from his dad, too. The only thing that got through to him will be in bold.

John,

I have no other way to get ahold of you than this. You don't have a phone, I don't have the time and if I was to see you face to face, I'd probably punch you. You mention that you wanted to get a part time job one day a week to make some extra money. I have been considering hiring you at the same rate of pay that you get at Home Depot to do a bunch of miscellaneous jobs for me. I have now reconsidered hiring you and will not. Instead, I will pay extra to hire somebody else that I can count on to do the job when they say they're going to do the job. To show up when they say they're going to show up and be responsible. The only thing that you have shown me on the tile job for your mother is that you can take money from family and with no sense of shame turn around and say "I will get to you when I damn well want to whether I promised you I would show up on a certain day or not." I thought I had raised you better, but apparently I haven't. That is my fault. I consider it your fault that you don't have enough pride in your own word to live up to it. As far as I am concerned, and I don't know how your mother feels about this, you are FIRED! When I get back from Vancouver, I will either do the tile work or Dolphin Tile will do the tile work, but you are fired.

From this point on, when it comes to money, we are even. You do not own me a dime. BUT DO NOT EVER, EVER ASK ME FOR ANY MONEY FOR ANY REASON! I will no longer be taken advantage of in that I seem to be your own private lending institution but you don't have any responsibility. The next money you will receive from me will be from my trust fund when I'm dead.

I have been extremely disappointed in all of you kids at various times, but I have NEVER been as disappointed in any of my children as I am in you at this present moment.

If and when you read this, I will probably be back in Vancouver. Don't call, don't write, don't email. I don't want to talk to you right now. I will decide when I get back from Vancouver if and when I want to talk to you again.

I know this sounds harsh but it's been a long time coming. I will never stop loving you but right now I sure as hell don't like you.

Dad

Hun, when he borrowed the money it was a condition that he work it off. We had already talked to him about doing the tile work, anyway. This was an "advance." Every time we talked to him about coming to do it, he'd have some excuse. There were times he'd say, "Ok, we're coming over. I'm doing the tile, can "she" and the kids go swimming?" Of course, I'd say "whoopee! Yes!" Anywhere from an hour or two after they were supposed to get here, we'd get a call... "I can't make it. Something else came up." This has been going on for almost a year!

Recently, his truck got repossesed. That doesn't happen to a financially responsible person. To keep his credit from becoming completely nill, he came to his dad and asked for help. That time, he was given $1800! And I mean... we had to have it johnny on the spot, too!! My son told me that his wife was beside herself with anger because the money wasn't readily available. Well, sorry! It had to be withdrawn from investment accounts! JEEEEZ!! Oh, and I didn't mention... I gave him my own 91 Pontiac, which left me without a car, as a trade in for that truck!! The "little miss" called it HER truck, while all the time we helped him get it so he could have something reliable for HIS work! Guess what? He's still driving the junker that he has to hot wire to get started! Oh, hell!! That's a whole 'nother story.

LOL Yep! Come on over! But you better not come barefoot over hot coals, though! LOL

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Kimmbers}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I find that if I write him, he reads the whole thing and I don't get interrupted. If I try to talk to him, he doesn't listen but keeps a steady flow or arguments going. His wife communicates better by letter, too. That way, we have a chance to stop and think what we want to say and get it all out. She and I are very comfortable hashing things out by letter.

Go ahead and rant, Hun. I did years of it working with Grandparent's "Rights." I fought with my daughter about it and now I'm fighting with my youngest son about it. Seems my oldest son is the only one that picked up on it.

(((((SEPT)))))

Speaking as a pawn in a power game growing up, I have found, and this is true of my brother too, that when we are kids in the middle we miss our families tremendously, when we are grown, we start to see who the real cause is. Sometimes, we don't want to admit it, but it is true. Your grandkids will remember how sweet grandma was and how you told them you loved them, no matter how their parents act. That will be their cross to bear! I do so hope this all gets worked out though, atleast so you can be with the Grandchildren. I know they are your joys.

Take Care lady,
Kimberly.