Do you want full intergration... or co-consiousness? or does it matter not to you??

My reason for asking is to make up my own mind.. it is a very confusing thing to me.. what I really want..

if you wouldn't mind sharing with me your thoughts... I would be very grateful.. perhaps in a PM..

This is weighing on me a bit...

[fgh]

<font color="purple"> Hello. I do not care. If I could go away I would. I do not like any body any more. Buuuuut if it hurts to go away I do not want that. jj.

I am completely co-conscious and do not want integration. My system of alters all work cooperatively and we function pretty well. Any integration that occurs is "natural" and "mutual" if some alters just choose to join with another alter.

[dorine]

At this time I don't want intergration. I couldn't image being without the others. Even though I do understand we would be merging together.

Life would be so much different and I would probally be lonely.

That is my feeling too,,, so I am opting out of integration - my T wll just have to "deal" with that.. it's my mind.. and I can choose.. what I want for it.. and it isn't integration..

I support anyone that does want it though.. it is a personal decsion.. as we all know..

[SerenitysWave]

I am quite comfy being co-consiousness, most of the time anyway.... I am too afraid to intergrate... afraid of what I might lose and what I might gain...

yes, i want full integration. i'm not ready for it yet, to be sure, but it is certainly something that i'm working towards, and i hope that it happens for me in my lifetime :-)

what does integration mean to me?

well... everyone is fragmented to a certain extent. people have different 'roles' so they behave a little differently depending on whether they are visiting their grandma, or hanging with their mates in the pub, or playing with their kids. people have a certain amount of inconsistency in their ideals compared with their action and so forth. a certain amount of fragmentation is normal and i just want to be... more integrated then i am at present.

i want one state to have fuller awareness of the other states so i can better co-ordinate my desires. figure out that part of me wants this and another part wants that and another part wants the next thing... figure out a way of integrating all those desires to i'm able to co-ordinate action that is more likely to achieve my (more things considered) ends. i want one state to have fuller awareness of the other states so knowledge can be shared between my different roles. i don't want to be triggered into a state that isn't able to access the knowledge to be able to deal with the situation.

i don't want to feel ashamed or embarrassed about parts of me. i want to come to accept each aspect for its strengths and its positive contribution and use that to help check some of the weaknesses and negative contributions of others. i want to be able to take fuller responsibility (and have fuller 'free choice') for my actions. i want to remember things i've done and i want to know where i am so that i can better decide what to do (so i stop doing some of the thing that i wouldn't do more things considered).

will it be lonely? i don't think so. i think that it is normal to have 'conversations in your head'. i think that people are fragmented to a certain extent and that they process things by thinking in conversations. sometimes imagining talking to external people... sometimes imagining talking to internal people. i don't see why i can't continue to do that. doing that is an important part of self-soothing, i think, and it is a strategy that most people employ.

to me... integration is about being more flexible and responsive to both different aspects of myself and different aspects of my environment. it is about being... or working towards being... psychologically healthy.

it is a process, i think. people who aren't DID... often work towards less fragmentation / more integration too.

I have thought and thought about this question... In my "younger" days.. I felt many of the things that you have expressed alexandra.

I have been "in" therapy for 23 years - working on being a good parent,, holding down a stressful job.. on-call.. also getting out of an abusive marriage of 12 years at the time that my son was born. Resolution of my faith .. was a huge.. commitment in time and effort... understanding.. the evil of the world.. and the love of God.. and where I with my DX and the trauma that led to my DX came from.. and yes my DX was caused by extreme trauma.

As I have expended energy.. on physical illnesses.. raising a son (22).. going thru the death of all of my family... it has changed me... especially this past year.
I do have a sister.. though we severed contact.. our pain just mirrors each others..that was 3 years ago.. at my father's death..

So I guess... for me... I feel that I don't want to "waste" more time on what I feel would be a very long, very hard process..
for me.. that is the operative word ME.

As an analyst myself.......... I have put the situation on the scale.. as I call it.... weighing pros.. and cons..

And the scale is weighed.. in the pro side.. of not spending the time seeking integration...

I appreciate your viewpoint.. and I know you like to debate.. and I really respect that in your posts..

For me this as you also must recognize is any "individuals" decsion.. for DID people..

I wasn't going to post anymore.. on the idea of integration.. but your post was very thought provoking.. and I wanted to respond..

Hey.

I appreciate your posting a response to me.

I guess my view of integration might be a little different from most peoples idea of integration. For me... Integration isn't so much an event as a process. Supposedly 'normal' people are fragmented - to a greater or lesser extent - and they are more or less integrated over time. It is a normal response to stress to be more fragmented... And it is a normal response to be less fragmented / more integrated when events are running fairly smoothly and when one is in a good place. I guess I think that, for me, I will be more or less integrated over time but as I progress I'll fragment less because I'll have more ego strength to deal with stressful events without fragmenting too much.

I guess... I think of integration as something that I work towards on a daily basis. Kind of like 'trying to be a good person'. I succeed with that more or less well each day, but it is something to attempt to do. While some people seek more integration by way of therapy I think it is certainly possible to seek integration outside therapy. One doesn't need to have therapy to develop as a person and to progress as a person.

It sounds like you have had a hard life and I really do understand that it is hard to come to some sort of peace after all that... I'm not really sure on your question... Are you asking whether you should continue with therapy until your therapist pronounces you 'integrated'? I guess... I think that you should do what you think is best for you. If you think you have learned some skills and developed some strength such that you can continue on the journey without a therapist then I really respect that decision. Only you know what is best for you at the end of the day.

Good luck.

[Gemstone]

I do want integration although the idea was really scary to me for a long time. I want to remember all the things I do and not lose time. I don't want to dissapear when I am triggered.

I know it will take a long time for me to achieve, but it is what I want for the future.

Thanks for answering... your posts make for more thinking.. which is a good thing...

This is helping me sort out how I feel.. so I appreciate the opportunity...

No.... I would never wait for a T to pronouce "integration" complete... You know I did do that with the first T of ten years.. I wanted that "pronouncement"... which when I look back at it... was more "his" thing than "my" thing..

Then I went to a highly skilled T... who did away with the DID DX and.. and worked with each of the alters - resolving each's issues.. as they came.. up... without even calling attention to the fact that they were alters.. He was a child psychologist... I was having trouble with child alters... so.. it followed suit I would want them to get help.. and that was a "process" that led to integration...

Then I went thru a series of T.. the last was 4 years.. she didn't believe in DID.. and so she told me that alot.. however she knew about eating disorders.. so I got help on that.. However... as a DID person... it was the most frustrating type of therapy... ever..

This last T... is just very good.. with DID.. but really thinks that integration is important.. and I don't want to be "at odds" with him..and I won't drop him... but I have definite lines that I do not want crossed..

For me I have evolved.. into really separate very distinct alters.. not sure what the "techie" term is... I want to perserve these very distinct alters..

I do have 4 mom alters.. that I will go thru the process and merge into one mom alter... and one of my alters has gained co-consiousenes and will contiune to share her pain and mature out.. until it is better..

Other than working on resolution of my ED... that will be the end of work on DID..

Where for some reason.. I see that other DID people would work on the process that would eventually lead to intergration all by itself...I am saying.. ahh no in therapy.. and keeping boundaries.. it is a consious decsion.

Am not sure I explained it well .. I can visualize what I am talking about.. just can't.. explain it..

[nothemama8]

we pobablly should agree to intergration, but have been here together soooooo long that we wouldn't no how to exist any other way, besides hubby and our friends have learned to live with us like we are so if it ain't broke why fix it is the way we look at it
Love ya
Angie and all

I lovvvvvveeeee that attitude.. just love it... I guess that is what I am trying to say.. in my own little way....

[nothemama8]

hey freewill anybody tell you how wonderful you are?
your the cherry on my hot fudge sundae

> For me I have evolved.. into really separate very distinct alters.. not sure what the "techie" term is... I want to perserve these very distinct alters..

So over time... Your condition has deteriorated. Putnam says something about how the majority of people with DID exhibit only 'transient windows of diagnosability prior to therapy' but that with therapy (a little encouragement) people become more split.

What does being split buy you? A way to express things that you wouldn't express otherwise? A way of being able to deny that you said / did things after the fact if the memory of having said / done that is just too painful?

Wouldn't it... Be better if you could learn to express the things that you express when switched in your present state? Wouldn't it be better if... You remembered what you had said / done so you could take better responsibility for what you had said / done? Wouldn't it be better if... Instead of pushing things away because they seem just too painful you were able to experience some of those things in a gentle way so that the pain was manageable and you didn't need to push them away any more?

I don't really understand what being fragmented buys you.

Of course I understand that it is a strategy to deal with stuff when there simply aren't any other coping strategies that are available that you can utilise. It is an understandable response. But present circumstances are different. Your therapist isn't going to hurt you, so things are safer. Your therapist can teach you alternative coping strategies so that you can deal with stuff without having to switch.

I don't understand what being fragmented buys you now...

As always... your opinion is appreciated...

According to traditional therapy... one would think that I have taken a "step" backwards.. but I truely think that the T's are still learning about DID or MPT>>>so I am not so sure that they are correct...

I started out with many... many alters.. and "ego states" so have made progress. according to traditional therapy.. by integrating those alters into the remaining alters..

What does non-integration buy me??
well.... I trust each and everyone of my remaining alters - "I" am still living my "life".. though thru an alter... they are very, very good at managing life circumstances...
I have many, many different friends.. that I would not have if I were "all together"... my alters are "beloved" as they are... so my long term friends.. of many, many years.. wouldn't be friends.. cause we would not "click"..
It makes life.. satisfying... otherwise I would most likely be a "put together" person.. with still many problems..

And truely... after all these years... I don't mind missing time.. when I was young.. it did..really did.. as I age.. well I don't..

Effort..... integration... takes much.. much.. effort.. again.. at my age with my experiences... have lived a very full life.. so now wish to put my effort towards.. enjoying life.. rather than working at integration..

What are your thoughts.. regarding... age factor and wanting to integrate... don't you think it makes a difference.. whether.. you are young and have your whole life ahead of you or not??

Integration isn't about 'getting rid of' or 'killing off' or 'denying' or 'avoiding' or 'repressing' alters... It is about better communication between alters.

> I have many, many different friends.. that I would not have if I were "all together"...

Why wouldn't you have those different friends if you were integrated? Part of you clearly clicks with them (because your alters are a part of you). A different part of you doesn't click with them (because that part doesn't "click" with them). There aren't many friends who I don't experience some ambivalence towards, however... It is okay to feel ambivalent about those friends. To not approve of some of the things they say or do... To approve of others... To have mixed feelings about still more... Integration would be about sorting out some of those ambivalent feelings that you are having... Of course you don't have to face the ambivalent feelings... You can supress them... But if you wanted to sort them out so you could have deeper and more meaningful friendships with less ambivalent responses then I guess you would need to sort out the conflicting feelings. That would be... integration of feelings.

I guess I think that integrating beliefs, desires, emotions etc... Will lead to a more satisfying, enjoyable life. A life where you feel some wholeness and security and strength inside you. Where you have the capacity to reflect on those beliefs and desires and emotions etc that are held by each part and where you are able to sort out some of the ambivalences... So that you have a clearer view of what it is that you believe and desire and what it is that you feel. So you are better able to act to achieve your ends.

Different theorists / clinicians of different theoretical orientations have very different ideas of what 'integration' means. I think that certain theoretical orientations... Have a view of 'integration' that is resisted by people... I don't accept those theoretical orientations. Maybe that is why I don't have resistence to the idea (in theory).

Of course it is hard in practice. SOmetimes there seems to be little for me to do but say 'k. thinks xxx and a. thinks yyy and w. thinks zzz and i don't know what i think i just want them (those feelings / thoughts / desires) to go away. it can take a whole session of my reflecting on xxx and yyy and zzz and thinking about the aspect of truth to all of those... reflecting... seeing how all of those can sit together... working through the fears and objections that each part holds... to get to some emergent view (greater than the sum of the parts) that is what I (the whole me) really feels / thinks / desires. Can take a whole session. But to me, that is what integration is about. Integrating xxx and yyy and zzz. And hopefully... By the end of the session, or over the course of a week or whatever I have integrated them satisfactorily.

Then of course the same thing happens again with a different issue...
Then another...
Then another...
Then another...

I think of it as a process. Integration is a process. A way of resolving thoughts / feelings / beliefs / desires that initially seem irreconcilable. I think that the process gets easier over time... Well... I jolly well hope that it gets easier over time. For me... That is what getting better (integrating) is all about... Getting better at that process over time. I figure... That is what supposedly 'normal' people are up to as well...

ya know... we agree...amazing thing isn't it....considering how many years that I have actually thought about this subject..

The process that you describe.. is just very visual.. and true..
mine is zzz then sss then qqq... and then agreement...on "that" item... and then the next.. and the next..
And so the "integration" process goes.. though believe me.. I have been in therapy with some T that would tell you THAT is not the process..

However, it is what I do with my current T.. and also with the one that I was with for 3 years that we worked so well together...

So..in actuality.. I am working towards integration.. though.. I do think that I am "so scared" of being "hopeful" and wanting that as an expectation..

I do worry.. if full integration "happened".. would I "like" this new "person".... well my response to that.. is that I truely do like and trust all of my alters.. so.. how could I help but like the resulting "new" person.. so that puts a mind at ease..

Changing of abilities - I have already had that happen.. as I have gone from many alters to a few... and what you can do.. what you can accomplish does change... and not always for the more effective.. I would say "better".. however, perhaps it is good not to be "the programmer" that can do 3 times more projects than the others.. hey less work.. if managers know that you can do it.. they will pile the work on and on..

My first T.. of 10 years... put such emphasis on intergration - like that was my life.. not being a mom, a programmer, a friend, an anyalst, a project manager... a person with a "life".

Perhaps.. that is the difference between the ineffective T for DID... and an effective T... I "live" my life now.. and therapy is dealing with "life" events.. not with this theroy of "intergration"...

So this has a very interesting and thought provoking thread.. I appreciate all that has contributed.. though.. would of course like to see it not end...

cause it is so interesting ... hearing all the thoughts on integration..

> I do worry.. if full integration "happened".. would I "like" this new "person".... well my response to that.. is that I truely do like and trust all of my alters.. so.. how could I help but like the resulting "new" person.. so that puts a mind at ease..

Yeah. Also... I'm not sure that there is any such thing as 'full integration' because everyone experiences some ambivalences at times and so I guess there will be these ambivalences that need to be worked through for the rest of our lives... But the process should get easier over time :-) And... It should get easier to say 'I kind of think that xxx, but I'm also thinking yyy, and on the other hand zzz seems to be right as well...' Instead of saying 'alter 1 thinks that xxx and alter 2 thinks that yyy and alter 3 thinks that zzz'. Or instead of pronouncing xxx and denying the alternatives then switching to alter 2 who pronounces yyy and denies the alternatives etc etc. Eventually... It becomes about what language we use to describe ourself / ourselves.

With respect to changing of abilities... Maybe less effective is what you need as a person. I mean, sure one can work 3 times as efficiently as others, but is that sustainable long term? What are the negative consequences of doing that? It might be that the step backwards is really a step forward.

> Perhaps.. that is the difference between the ineffective T for DID... and an effective T... I "live" my life now.. and therapy is dealing with "life" events.. not with this theroy of "intergration"...

Maybe dealing better with your responses to life events... Just IS integration. I mean really... What else is integration supposed to be?

I think the answer to the question 'is it better to integrate or not' depends on what one takes integration to be. And I think that what one takes integration to be depends on ones theory of DID / of what is going on with respect to alters. I have to be careful talking about theories of DID / theories of alters here because I've been repeatedly advised that people interpret such discussion as 'debating the existence' and such debate is not allowed. But... Maybe integration is a matter of 'debating the existence' aka: Sorting out ones beliefs as to what is going on and what progress consists in.

Here I am.... once more revising or perhaps understanding more.. of the "integration" process...for me..

I thought that I had it all figured out... how "far" I would go.. which alters that I would keep.. which ones would merge.. how they would merge.. Ohhh man.. just a day or so ago...

and then LIFE happened..

Life came into my life.. and now everything is different.. I would like to say that I am "taking" this in "stride" and am happy about the merging changing landscape inside my mind..
BUT... I am not... it was supposed to be controlled... suppose to be MY decision.. but it is not...

is so hard... so difficult... feeling "floaty" and not "myself" as I know "myself" to be...

What has happened? I ask myself.. I really don't like this feeling...my head hurts... my tummy hurts..

Alters in/out during the daily therapy sessions... few seconds here, few minutes there... ahhhhhhhhhhhhh...let me be.. Therapists literally asks me.. so can you drive..before I leave.. do you know your way home.. before I leave... yes,, yes.. I tell him... because on the way there I got lost and drove around and around trying to find his office..

So.. the question.. do I want full integration... well I may not have a choice... truely... LIFE happens.. and as LIFE happens... integration.. may happen... whether I want or don't want it..

Pls.. let this floaty.. headache.. tummy hurting feeling pass..