[Secretum]

My therapist is really interested in PDs, and we have had some discussions on them before, which I find interesting.

She told me that Narcissists actually feel really insecure and hide that insecurity by "putting up a front" of extreme confidence and self-worship. From reading posts from you all here, I've decided that is probably not true, haha...but still. I imagine that it must be very painful to be a Narcissist. To have endured whatever it was you suffered with as a child, and then to grow up with a certain defense mechanism that keeps you from connecting from others on a meaningful level...

And then there is the stigma. People view you as monsters. All they can focus on is your destructive potential. On the front page of PC even, it seems that there is always at least one article on "how a narcissist abuses their victims" or "signs there is a narcissist in your life", etc. But no one ever talks about the suffering that the Narcissist goes through. It's as if people think that because Narcissists can't empathize with others, they do not deserve empathy themselves.

While, I feel that that is bullpoop. I think that everyone is entitled to empathy, and that everyone deserves to be supported, loved, and cared for.

I guess my question is....do you wish that people were more willing to try to empathize with you? To see who you really are, a complex, emotive human being who is the way that they are due to circumstances completely out of their control?

Or do you not really care about having people try to understand you, as long as they respect/admire you?

I'm genuinely curious. I hope I haven't insulted anyone here. I really like all of you (especially you, Atypical )

[Atypical_Disaster]

Well I'm not a Narcissist, but the two involved in raising me often begged me for empathy as I got older. They learned the hard way that I was born without the capacity to feel it.

Again, not a Narcissist but I'll answer your questions from a psychopathic point of view because I'm bored and you mentioned me in this post so hey why not?


do you wish that people were more willing to try to empathize with you?

No. I am actually downright contemptuous of people who seek to empathize with and "understand" me. Frankly, no one can truly understand me except another psychopath and even then no two psychopaths are alike. It's the irony of being human, nobody can ever fully understand another person. That's not the way the world works regardless of anyone who claims otherwise.

To see who you really are, a complex, emotive human being who is the way that they are due to circumstances completely out of their control?

While I am most certainly complex, I am not an emotional creature obviously. Heh. I don't wish anyone to "see" me really though it is refreshing if someone does and strikes up a nice intellectual conversation with me about it. That, however, is a rare occurrence most people just started with the "you cold hearted *****" line so I just smile(amused because people are incredibly predictable in certain respects) and move on to other people I can play the game with, to be blunt.

I prefer operating in the shadows. I have been learning since childhood how to mime "normal" emotionality, empathy, and a conscience... All the things I was born without. I have to wear a mask most of the time except around those who know who/what I truly am underneath said mask and don't mind it. Otherwise it gets mildly annoying, you know, having to move to a new group of people every few months. Tsk tsk tsk.

Or do you not really care about having people try to understand you, as long as they respect/admire you?

I have zero investment in people "understanding" me and as I've mentioned above I am typically extremely contemptuous of people who try. As for being admired/respected, eh it's a means to an end for me. Not the end itself. If being admired/respected gets me what I want then I certainly cultivate that and I do it flawlessly(I'm insanely charismatic/charming, heh). Also, by that same token if being hated is what will get me what I want, then I cultivate that too. I don't care what other people think of me, all I care about is getting what I want.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Also, there is indeed a lot of stigma about NPD and ASPD in particular(hell BPD and HPD have a lot of stigma attached too). I don't understand the stigma frankly. NPD, ASPD, HPD, and BPD are all disorders. It's not like any of us with our respective diagnoses chose to be this way.

And I was born psychopathic. I literally cannot help it. I couldn't change it if I wanted to(I don't want to, lol). My brain has actual neurological differences.

I find the stigma about ASPD really funny, and frankly the "evil" card has gotten pulled on me a lot. I just think it's amusing. I've actually told people, "you call me evil like it's a bad thing." Lol.

Possible trigger:

As far as how Narcissists feel about being called names.. Well, the two that raised me sure didn't appreciate my never to be humbled opinion(I am now permanently crippled for mouthing off to one of them every chance I got, he was very malignant and an unabashed sadist... He tortured me enough that I cannot walk on bad days and frankly I will most likely be in a wheelchair by the time I hit the age of 40 or so). I always viewed my interactions with the both of them as a game. They both lost. One is actually now deceased(and no, his body is NOT in my closet... lol one of my ex's accused me of being a serial killer... Yeah really. Ridiculous and hilarious.)

I will once again post a quote I found online:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

One of the few disorders where the patient is left alone and everyone around them are treated. So F'n true!!!

[Open Eyes]

Originally Posted by Underground

I will once again post a quote I found online:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

One of the few disorders where the patient is left alone and everyone around them are treated. So F'n true!!!

Yeah, but if you really think about it often they became that way because they were abandoned when they were children. They rarely become patients too because they had learned really young that "needing/asking for help" was unacceptable, and in some cases met with abusive reactions from dysfunctional parents. They come to loathe weakness because it triggers them to feeling unworthy and weak somehow when they were children. Often they will lash out at someone who reminds them of that because that is what they got from their parents whenever they needed comfort and caring, so in a way it is a "learned response" they unknowingly imprinted. People to them are often just "property" too because again, that is how they were treated.

Even if a child is raised with too much praise and handed everything and given everything and constantly told they are "the best or better than everyone else", they can develope a sense of "entitlement" unknowingly and look down on everyone, and just get rid of anyone that doesn't "please and praise them".

If you just think about "empathy", well why would they be able to empathize with someone else when no one ever did it with them? Also, to empathize with another person, it requires a person to be in touch with their own hurts and disappointments, well individuals with NPD don't want to feel these feelings, it's to painful and confusing so they "avoid" situations that require them to do so because they just feel too vulnerable. Often there is a deep resentment and an inner sense of, "No one could possibly understand the depths of me, no one could be that intelligent or capable so why bother, they will just hurt me like the ones I grew up with. No not me I am above going down that path, I have figured out how to do just fine without it".

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by Underground

I will once again post a quote I found online:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

One of the few disorders where the patient is left alone and everyone around them are treated. So F'n true!!!

Ditto with Antisocial Personality Disorder, HA HA HA!

[Secretum]

Very interesting, Atypical. You said that "all you care about is getting what you want"... There was a psych researcher at my university who studied psychopathy, and he gave a presentation on his research. He said that he believed that psychopathy is primarily an attention problem, with psychopaths getting so focused on-as you said-"what they want", that nothing can stop them in pursuit of their goal. He said that they are not out to hurt anyone, but they have no respect for others' wellbeing if it stands in the way of their goal. Do you find this to be an accurate representation of your experiences?

Also, how do you determine what you want, if you are not motivated by pride, or reputation, or emotion? What motivates you to seek something with that much passion? Hope you don't mind me asking...

You're right, Underground. Narcissists don't get a lot of compassion for their condition, even from therapists. Do you wish that equal attention was given to your healing as it is given to the healing of those you may have hurt?

Yes, cluster B diagnoses probably carry the heaviest stigma of all. I think it is probably even worse than the stigma attached to schizophrenia...people with cluster B dx's are seen as "bad people", which I don't think is fair. You're right, Atypical; these are disorders that no one chooses to have...I personally don't believe that anyone is "evil". We may do evil things, to be certain, but...everyone has a reason-be it brain chemistry or brain structure or traumatic experiences-that makes them the way that they are. I personally don't believe in free will (which makes a lot of people mad...) because of this.

I think you have a very interesting perspective, OE. Narcissists probably are terrified of coming to terms with their own vulnerabilities and imperfections...heck, everyone is, but it is probably worse for Narcissists. And the not being capable of empathizing with others, because no one ever showed them empathy...intriguing. I'd be curious to hear a Narcissist's opinion on whether that is how it really is for them...only if you feel comfortable sharing, of course.

Thanks for answering my questions, everyone.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Very interesting, Atypical. You said that "all you care about is getting what you want"... There was a psych researcher at my university who studied psychopathy, and he gave a presentation on his research. He said that he believed that psychopathy is primarily an attention problem, with psychopaths getting so focused on-as you said-"what they want", that nothing can stop them in pursuit of their goal. He said that they are not out to hurt anyone, but they have no respect for others' wellbeing if it stands in the way of their goal. Do you find this to be an accurate representation of your experiences?

Yes and no. I don't think it's quite so black and white. Interesting question though!

Also, how do you determine what you want, if you are not motivated by pride, or reputation, or emotion? What motivates you to seek something with that much passion?

It's not about passion. It's about logical thought. If I decide I want say, money, sex, power, etc then I make a conscious plan to go and get whatever it is. It is not motivated by anything that what I have seen people experience and describe as "passion". I do get that single-minded focus thing that you mentioned above. It's almost like getting "tunnel vision".

Yes, cluster B diagnoses probably carry the heaviest stigma of all. I think it is probably even worse than the stigma attached to schizophrenia...people with cluster B dx's are seen as "bad people", which I don't think is fair. You're right, Atypical; these are disorders that no one chooses to have...I personally don't believe that anyone is "evil". We may do evil things, to be certain, but...everyone has a reason-be it brain chemistry or brain structure or traumatic experiences-that makes them the way that they are. I personally don't believe in free will (which makes a lot of people mad...) because of this.

Your open mind about this topic is really rather refreshing, not something I see often so good for you for not being your average ignorant individual.

I don't see people in terms of "good" and "evil". I have zero "conscience" and therefore no "morals" to speak of; so I don't think in terms of "right and wrong"... It's cause and effect for me.

[CBDMeditator]

Originally Posted by Secretum

My therapist is really interested in PDs, and we have had some discussions on them before, which I find interesting.

She told me that Narcissists actually feel really insecure and hide that insecurity by "putting up a front" of extreme confidence and self-worship. From reading posts from you all here, I've decided that is probably not true, haha...but still. I imagine that it must be very painful to be a Narcissist. To have endured whatever it was you suffered with as a child, and then to grow up with a certain defense mechanism that keeps you from connecting from others on a meaningful level...

And then there is the stigma. People view you as monsters. All they can focus on is your destructive potential. On the front page of PC even, it seems that there is always at least one article on "how a narcissist abuses their victims" or "signs there is a narcissist in your life", etc. But no one ever talks about the suffering that the Narcissist goes through. It's as if people think that because Narcissists can't empathize with others, they do not deserve empathy themselves.

While, I feel that that is bullpoop. I think that everyone is entitled to empathy, and that everyone deserves to be supported, loved, and cared for.

I guess my question is....do you wish that people were more willing to try to empathize with you? To see who you really are, a complex, emotive human being who is the way that they are due to circumstances completely out of their control?

Or do you not really care about having people try to understand you, as long as they respect/admire you?

I'm genuinely curious. I hope I haven't insulted anyone here. I really like all of you (especially you, Atypical )

Thank you so much for recognizing this. I wish more people were as informed as you about this. Though I can't directly identify with the psychopathy Atypical mentioned, I have been diagnosed with NPD, and empathy tends to be a fluctuating resource in NPD's unfortunate manifestations (fortunately these connections can be repaired). Perhaps one of the tragic and avoidable realities of this "disorder" (it's really a defense mechanism that can be armed and disarmed) is the stigma that its sufferers have to live down.

While there are certainly truths to be culled from the general message that NPD defenses can leave a great deal of damage in their wake, many of these sensational articles (spurred further by fictional characters like those in 50 Shades of Grey) never mention that NPD is a spectrum (or inventory), ranging from 0-40. Most Americans are in the 15-16.2 range of this spectrum, while anything over 17 is approaching "pathological." It's said that actors average about 18 on the spectrum, while reality stars are around 19.5. The higher end, tending toward malignant NPD, seen in dictators and many prisoners, is around 23 and over. These would be your Scott Petersons and OJ Simpsons. When I last took the inventory my personal number was 19. But it's important to point out there is no predictable model for this in terms of individual behavior. Many over 23 would be high functioning, and master chameleons. They say politicians, lawyers, and doctors tend to be higher on the spectrum. It's also said that NPD is underdiagnosed, not to mention on the rise.

I was talking to my friend the other day about this. The stigmatization of personality disorders is a social construct born out of fairly stark ignorance. This makes this idea that we should be “ashamed” of our disorder exactly tantamount to feeling shame for cancer, and it’s a fallacy. A narcissist should be self-aware (many are not, or are indifferent about their state), but to feel shame for the upbringing you had isn't exactly logically tenable.

Societally there is more emphasis on protecting the healthy than treating the unhealthy. It often seems easier to ostracize the products of damaged childhoods. We can see this in other areas of the more severely abused or neglected children with cultural attitudes fixed on punishment over rehabilitation. Mainstream media and true crime shows predictably focus on the “evil” of pedophiles and killers, but psychologists, forensic psychiatrists, pathologists, criminologists, and profilers don’t use this illogical biblical label. These shows exploit and sensationalize these problems for profit rather than be motivated by the less popular sentiment of human compassion.

Buried under a redundant jet stream of misunderstanding, self-righteousness, and vilification is the deeper story of determinism. People are the products of their genetics, upbringing, and luck. Everyone would be doing exactly the same as the people they pointed fingers at if molded by the same environmental influences, the same culture, the same chance events and encounters. Better socialized countries understand causation in a way the pitchfork carrying mob of US culture predominantly does not.

The tragedy of NPD is lost on a culture bent on finger pointing and the desperate need to exact punishment. At the heart of these stories are people with hurt children trapped inside them. Despite pervading headline narratives, NPD defense mechanisms are centered around immense shame and developmental trauma.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Though I can't directly identify with the psychopathy Atypical mentioned, I have been diagnosed with NPD, and empathy tends to be a fluctuating resource in NPD's unfortunate manifestations (fortunately these connections can be repaired). Perhaps one of the tragic and avoidable realities of this "disorder" (it's really a defense mechanism that can be armed and disarmed) is the stigma that its sufferers have to live down.

I wound up having psychopathic features because I have had a very rough life where antisocial behavior was actively encouraged. I'm not a true primary psychopath, just a Narcissist with a few more antisocial traits than normal. I still can slide into denial about being a Narcissist wicked fast.

[CBDMeditator]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I wound up having psychopathic features because I have had a very rough life where antisocial behavior was actively encouraged. I'm not a true primary psychopath, just a Narcissist with a few more antisocial traits than normal. I still can slide into denial about being a Narcissist wicked fast.

I don't know the extent of your early trauma, but I think we both share the fact that physical abuse was a part of our childhood.

I have a few significant factors contributing to my development. One, I was adopted at the age of three. So the first three years (memories consigned to my subconscious) were without any mother. Two, the parents who adopted me were both abusive and coddling. I was put in ice baths for punishment, and spanked with a belt regularly. This isn't nearly as extreme as it could have been (I wasn't neglected or severely beaten), but combined with feelings of abandonment from learning of my adoption around the age of 6, and being regularly bullied at school and around my neighborhood from the ages of 5-9 (because it was known I was adopted), I started taking things out on anything in my surroundings. Many of these shameful memories have deeply impacted me to this day.

Fortunately there were mitigating influences there too, healthy love from other relatives, music and art (scientifically proven to spur empathy in children), and early moral life lessons. These were things that I theorize may have destabilized an early chronic narcissism, rendering some features latent.

To be sure, the seeds for NPD defenses were there early. I can recall fabricating a persona in my childhood. But I oscillated between these states throughout my youth between parasitic and predatory behavior and moral compunctions, empathy and guilt. For example I may turn on distant friends or acquaintences (I never betrayed any close friends), or bully someone, but then feel overwhelmed by guilt later. Various empathy inducing events, and then NPD defense triggers colored a lot of my "rollercoaster" upbringing.

Interestingly, I was able to fall deeply in love with a girl in my early 20s. However narcissistic I was at the time, I know I would have unconditionally and altruistically given my life for her, which to my understanding doesn't exactly fit the NPD template. That ended very badly because she had been cheating, and my belief she would change turned into chance after chance until our relationship devolved into dysfunctional encounters (obviously I loved her and couldn't look the other way with her continuous cheating) Finally, after ignoring friends on this matter for some time, in the grips of a textbook emotional breakdown, I managed a tear soaked self-intervention, and was able to break up with her.

But the emotional and psychological fallout from that was unbearable. I count this among a few traumatic triggers (early 20s) or at least narcissism fortifying events that further cemented my NPD response. Having a longtime friend who was conspicuously high on the spectrum not be "available" for conversation that wasn't superficial didn't help during this very raw period. I couldn't get over her for years.

I markedly turned much further inward in the years following that breakup, becoming rigidly perfectionistic and more critical of others.

Whatever degree of psychopathy may or may not apply to you (it sounds more like you're describing 'sociopathy', which as it turns out is more innately empathetic than previously thought) you might be curious to know that like NPD, our understanding of psychopathy is changing too.
e.g. Psychopaths Can Feel Empathy Too, When They Try

-

[marmaduke]

Originally Posted by Underground

I will once again post a quote I found online:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

One of the few disorders where the patient is left alone and everyone around them are treated. So F'n true!!!

Oh, yes. Never a truer word spoken!

[Atypical_Disaster]

Whatever degree of psychopathy may or may not apply to you (it sounds more like you're describing 'sociopathy', which as it turns out is more innately empathetic than previously thought) you might be curious to know that like NPD, our understanding of psychopathy is changing too.

I just have some of the traits. Calling them psychopathic or sociopathic doesn't matter that much. I may simply call them Antisocial traits in the future since that is the personality disorder in the DSM.

I am incapable of empathy. That is just a fact, and I've known that about myself since I was a child. I noticed that I didn't "feel" connections to other people's emotions/suffering/and so on.

[CBDMeditator]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I just have some of the traits. Calling them psychopathic or sociopathic doesn't matter that much. I may simply call them Antisocial traits in the future since that is the personality disorder in the DSM.

I am incapable of empathy. That is just a fact, and I've known that about myself since I was a child. I noticed that I didn't "feel" connections to other people's emotions/suffering/and so on.

You're the only authority here on how you feel, so I'll defer to you on those matters.

What I will extend is the possibility that you haven't had those emotions appropriately stirred with therapy or drugs yet (there are a deluge of drugs that can induce empathetic neurochemistry). And even if if it's exactly as you say, and you're somehow incapable of empathy, that doesn't somehow make a content life mutually exclusive. I've had periods where I was non-empathetic, but still had the time of my life.

Plus, I'm guessing you're pretty well incentivized to behave in appropriate ways to ensure your continued happiness. I heard a guy over in the NPD section at Psychforums call it his "punitive conscience," meaning he was well controlled by laws regardless of his lack of empathy, so it all shook out evenly in the end.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by CBDMeditator

You're the only authority here on how you feel, so I'll defer to you on those matters.

What I will extend is the possibility that you haven't had those emotions appropriately stirred with therapy or drugs yet (there are a deluge of drugs that can induce empathetic neurochemistry). And even if if it's exactly as you say, and you're somehow incapable of empathy, that doesn't somehow make a content life mutually exclusive. I've had periods where I was non-empathetic, but still had the time of my life.

Plus, I'm guessing you're pretty well incentivized to behave in appropriate ways to ensure your continued happiness. I heard a guy over in the NPD section at Psychforums call it his "punitive conscience," meaning he was well controlled by laws regardless of his lack of empathy, so it all shook out evenly in the end.

For a long time due to my horrible childhood I shut off my emotions all together. That plus having early onset schizophrenia(a blunted affect is part of my symptom cluster)... Yes, it did make me appear socio/psychopathic.

I am in therapy, and while I will never be an empathetic person, I can work on behaviors I know are holding me back and keeping me from having meaningful interpersonal interactions. My motivation is that I do not want to end up like the Narcissists who raised me, they both wound up miserable and alone. I do not want to suffer that fate.

I have modified much of my behavior as is. I am far more content, so whatever I am doing inside and outside of my therapist's office is working. I do not wish to "change" in the sense of becoming an empathetic ray of light. But I do not want to stop growing as a person, ever. I want to be better than the Narcissists responsible for my childhood. I want to rise above that. It is beneath me to act as they both did. So of course, my motivations aren't altruistic but alas, it is the nature of my disorder.

Your posts are always an interesting read, it's nice to see a new face here.

[CBDMeditator]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

For a long time due to my horrible childhood I shut off my emotions all together. That plus having early onset schizophrenia(a blunted affect is part of my symptom cluster)... Yes, it did make me appear socio/psychopathic.

I am in therapy, and while I will never be an empathetic person, I can work on behaviors I know are holding me back and keeping me from having meaningful interpersonal interactions. My motivation is that I do not want to end up like the Narcissists who raised me, they both wound up miserable and alone. I do not want to suffer that fate.

I have modified much of my behavior as is. I am far more content, so whatever I am doing inside and outside of my therapist's office is working. I do not wish to "change" in the sense of becoming an empathetic ray of light. But I do not want to stop growing as a person, ever. I want to be better than the Narcissists responsible for my childhood. I want to rise above that. It is beneath me to act as they both did. So of course, my motivations aren't altruistic but alas, it is the nature of my disorder.

Your posts are always an interesting read, it's nice to see a new face here.

Me and you both. It seems this forum is no stranger to rough childhoods. A lot of people are surprised to learn I ran with gangs in high school. We were bullied until we became the bullies. I guess that's how it works everywhere (the other option is you shrink and fade away). I was jumped several times, until finally getting punched became something like a dog you kick too much. Eventually it's going to bite back.

Fortunately those days are behind me. Education, and rampant intellectualism became my coping mechanism. For its failures, I'm glad for having gone through it. Higher education tends to smooth the rough edges, but you never know when you may need a little sand in your character.

I'm equally as terrified about the dying alone thing. I don't think this fear is unique to a few guys with narcissistic coping mechanisms, however. I think this one is high on everyone's list. But it's good you're attentive to the behaviors of your parents, making notes to be sure not to repeat. I'm very similar with my adoptive father. He couldn't be more borderline if you put him in Seth Brundel's flay machine with Courtney Love.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm glad you're on board here too. I've seen several of your responses to forum newcomers in the past few days. It seems like it's been pretty inactive in this section. Maybe we need to start advertising that we're looking for more narcissists.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by CBDMeditator

Me and you both. It seems this forum is no stranger to rough childhoods. A lot of people are surprised to learn I ran with gangs in high school. We were bullied until we became the bullies. I guess that's how it works everywhere (the other option is you shrink and fade away). I was jumped several times, until finally getting punched became something like a dog you kick too much. Eventually it's going to bite back.

Fortunately those days are behind me. Education, and rampant intellectualism became my coping mechanism. For its failures, I'm glad for having gone through it. Higher education tends to smooth the rough edges, but you never know when you may need a little sand in your character.

I'm equally as terrified about the dying alone thing. I don't think this fear is unique to a few guys with narcissistic coping mechanisms, however. I think this one is high on everyone's list. But it's good you're attentive to the behaviors of your parents, making notes to be sure not to repeat. I'm very similar with my adoptive father. He couldn't be more borderline if you put him in Seth Brundel's flay machine with Courtney Love.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm glad you're on board here too. I've seen several of your responses to forum newcomers in the past few days. It seems like it's been pretty inactive in this section. Maybe we need to start advertising that we're looking for more narcissists.

Yes, I'm not surprised that you had a rough childhood as well. Seems to come with the territory around here with the few Narcissists that post. Like you, I got bullied until I became a bully myself.

I'm not a guy, though I have to say I've always preferred men as friends. Most other women I've wasted my time on tend to be borderlines, they cling to me and I hate that(I think that smothering thing that BPD people do causes me to think my sense of self is being threatened, to be all analytical about it, ha ha ha). My parents are interesting creatures. My mother is either a sociopath or a psychopath, I'm not entirely sure which because I do see those two words as meaning two similar yet different things. She doesn't really have friends, but she likes it that way. I prefer quality over quantity like she does.

It's always nice to see a new face here who actually talks about things that are of substance.

This forum is so inactive it's a bit crazy, Underground and myself are usually the only ones who post here who actually have NPD. Now you, so that makes three of us. Heh.

Most Narcissists aren't self-aware. And yes, my being self-aware totally feeds my ego. Hah!!!

[Strategos]

Originally Posted by Secretum

She told me that Narcissists actually feel really insecure and hide that insecurity by "putting up a front" of extreme confidence and self-worship.

I think this is very true, but it takes a while to actually find this within yourself. A strength of the narcissist is to shut these feelings away and see them as "primitive" and themselves being too great to be affected by something so petty.

Originally Posted by Secretum

But no one ever talks about the suffering that the Narcissist goes through. It's as if people think that because Narcissists can't empathize with others, they do not deserve empathy themselves.

Narcissists are not very likeable people, overall. I'd wager to say that most of the time if one was to reveal to a friend "I have confidence issues" they would laugh it off as a joke and think you aren't being serious.

Originally Posted by Secretum

I guess my question is....do you wish that people were more willing to try to empathize with you? To see who you really are, a complex, emotive human being who is the way that they are due to circumstances completely out of their control?

The paradox the narcissist lives in is their wish to be adored and recognised by peers and strangers, and also their intense desire to be left alone.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Round 2 of answering the original poster's question since I'm in an honest mood today! LOL.

Anyways:

I guess my question is....do you wish that people were more willing to try to empathize with you? To see who you really are, a complex, emotive human being who is the way that they are due to circumstances completely out of their control?

Not really. Empathy just seems pointless to me. It won't fix anything, and I tend to feel threatened if someone attempts to empathize with me and that is a very quick way to make my "narcissistic rage" flare. The worst thing is when people try to "fix" me, usually romantic partners(I've been single for over four years by choice, though many have tried to get romantically involved with me until I tell them in five minutes I'm not interested, for this very reason) and almost every friend I've ever had. They claim to want to "help" me, but since they don't know what they're dealing with(even when I straight up tell them), and their "help" just makes me so angry I could and often do scream at people. I would prefer to be alone than to have "friends" that are worse than useless to me with their misguided AT BEST versions of "help".

Or do you not really care about having people try to understand you, as long as they respect/admire you?

There is a huge difference between understanding someone and empathizing with someone, those two often coincide but not always. I am often told I "understand" people but I certainly cannot empathize even if I tried. Narcissists wouldn't be so good at what they do if they didn't understand how human beings work, same can be said for sociopaths and psychopaths also.

I don't like being "understood" at all. It makes me "see red". I get so infuriated I cannot even articulate how much so. Why do I hate being "understood" so much? Because someone truly understanding me is extremely rare. That's why. Most just enjoy deluding themselves into thinking they "understand" me. It's stupid, pathetic, and the fastest way to earn my straight up hatred.

[Mattmx]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

Round 2 of answering the original poster's question since I'm in an honest mood today! LOL.

Anyways:

I guess my question is....do you wish that people were more willing to try to empathize with you? To see who you really are, a complex, emotive human being who is the way that they are due to circumstances completely out of their control?

Not really. Empathy just seems pointless to me. It won't fix anything, and I tend to feel threatened if someone attempts to empathize with me and that is a very quick way to make my "narcissistic rage" flare. The worst thing is when people try to "fix" me, usually romantic partners(I've been single for over four years by choice, though many have tried to get romantically involved with me until I tell them in five minutes I'm not interested, for this very reason) and almost every friend I've ever had. They claim to want to "help" me, but since they don't know what they're dealing with(even when I straight up tell them), and their "help" just makes me so angry I could and often do scream at people. I would prefer to be alone than to have "friends" that are worse than useless to me with their misguided AT BEST versions of "help".

Or do you not really care about having people try to understand you, as long as they respect/admire you?

There is a huge difference between understanding someone and empathizing with someone, those two often coincide but not always. I am often told I "understand" people but I certainly cannot empathize even if I tried. Narcissists wouldn't be so good at what they do if they didn't understand how human beings work, same can be said for sociopaths and psychopaths also.

I don't like being "understood" at all. It makes me "see red". I get so infuriated I cannot even articulate how much so. Why do I hate being "understood" so much? Because someone truly understanding me is extremely rare. That's why. Most just enjoy deluding themselves into thinking they "understand" me. It's stupid, pathetic, and the fastest way to earn my straight up hatred.

The only way I think it could be useful for a Narcissist to be understood is if they could do so in a way that got them pity, not shunned. It's a stigma issue not a competence issue. Plenty of people understand that narcissists were hurt in their past, or something like that, but the issue is they feel hostility and such because the label has such a bad flavor for most

[Tauren]

I am confused. On another thread Atypical said she was a diagnosed narcissist and met all 9 criteria. Here she says she's not, then that she is. But if you don't care what other people think, how can you be a narcissist?

But saying contradictory things like that right in a row is one of the stand-out traits of a psychopath. I read some cognitive-linguistic explanation for that but I can't remember the terminology.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by Tauren

I am confused. On another thread Atypical said she was a diagnosed narcissist and met all 9 criteria. Here she says she's not, then that she is. But if you don't care what other people think, how can you be a narcissist?

But saying contradictory things like that right in a row is one of the stand-out traits of a psychopath. I read some cognitive-linguistic explanation for that but I can't remember the terminology.

Okay? Call me what you want heh I don't care.

[waiting4]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

Well I'm not a Narcissist, but the two involved in raising me often begged me for empathy as I got older. They learned the hard way that I was born without the capacity to feel it.

Again, not a Narcissist but I'll answer your questions from a psychopathic point of view because I'm bored and you mentioned me in this post so hey why not?


do you wish that people were more willing to try to empathize with you?

No. I am actually downright contemptuous of people who seek to empathize with and "understand" me. Frankly, no one can truly understand me except another psychopath and even then no two psychopaths are alike. It's the irony of being human, nobody can ever fully understand another person. That's not the way the world works regardless of anyone who claims otherwise.

To see who you really are, a complex, emotive human being who is the way that they are due to circumstances completely out of their control?

While I am most certainly complex, I am not an emotional creature obviously. Heh. I don't wish anyone to "see" me really though it is refreshing if someone does and strikes up a nice intellectual conversation with me about it. That, however, is a rare occurrence most people just started with the "you cold hearted *****" line so I just smile(amused because people are incredibly predictable in certain respects) and move on to other people I can play the game with, to be blunt.

I prefer operating in the shadows. I have been learning since childhood how to mime "normal" emotionality, empathy, and a conscience... All the things I was born without. I have to wear a mask most of the time except around those who know who/what I truly am underneath said mask and don't mind it. Otherwise it gets mildly annoying, you know, having to move to a new group of people every few months. Tsk tsk tsk.

Or do you not really care about having people try to understand you, as long as they respect/admire you?

I have zero investment in people "understanding" me and as I've mentioned above I am typically extremely contemptuous of people who try. As for being admired/respected, eh it's a means to an end for me. Not the end itself. If being admired/respected gets me what I want then I certainly cultivate that and I do it flawlessly(I'm insanely charismatic/charming, heh). Also, by that same token if being hated is what will get me what I want, then I cultivate that too. I don't care what other people think of me, all I care about is getting what I want.

Excellent post. I've missed them. I've been away. I hope you're well.

Lot's of 'I's.....you'll understand.

[waiting4]

Originally Posted by Underground

I will once again post a quote I found online:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

One of the few disorders where the patient is left alone and everyone around them are treated. So F'n true!!!

ahhh another favorite, Underground!! Lovely to see your lines in the sand...they're always so deep and cutting....and correct lol

[Tauren]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

Okay? Call me what you want heh I don't care.

Hey, I'm just curious. I've never met a psychopath in real life