[marmaduke]

Yup I've noticed subtle is not your forte!
True most narcs do not hurt deliberately. My father, a fragile narc was blissfully unaware of the the hurt he caused.
Mother, malignant, was very aware.

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[hazn]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

Yup I've noticed subtle is not your forte!
True most narcs do not hurt deliberately. My father, a fragile narc was blissfully unaware of the the hurt he caused.
Mother, malignant, was very aware.

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I'm not sure I buy into this idea that coverts aren't aware. Maybe they're just better at pretending. Doesn't the fact that they are covert, mean they are self-aware? They're wearing a mask just like the overt narcissist... and to do that with some level of skill requires awareness of others and how you're perceived by them.

[marmaduke]

Interovert, extrovert, overt, covert.
Makes no difference. Why should it?
One thing makes a narcissist.

No empathy.

My mother was covert. She controlled quietly. The sadistic streak was secret, our little secret.
No obvious abuse. No bruises.

Mother stayed well. Everyone else got treated.

My sister (mothers golden child) is by contrast overt. Loud extrovert attention narcissitic/pychopathic seeking drama queen. But underneath just like mother.

No empathy.


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[here today]

Atypical,

I’m not sure what “move” to suggest/play next. Well I’ve got one idea but it will kind of be a different “game”.

Do you ever call a game a “draw”. And, if so, are you satisfied with that – win-win?

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by here today

Atypical,

I’m not sure what “move” to suggest/play next. Well I’ve got one idea but it will kind of be a different “game”.

Do you ever call a game a “draw”. And, if so, are you satisfied with that – win-win?

Use your idea, I'd be interested to see what you come up with.

A game can certainly be a draw, the term exists for a reason. Sometimes a game isn't about winning or losing. It depends. It always depends, everything is always in flux.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

. . .
As far as therapy helping me, it depends on what you call help. Like many have said about psychopaths, therapy has taught me how to be even more manipulative and so on. However, I have learned in therapy that it is okay to drop the mask around some, and I've also focused on learning practical things to do that keep my boredom at bay so I don't do anything too reckless. My therapist knows I cannot be altered as I was born this way and thankfully she's smart enough to be able to work with that, and she and I just focus on how to modify behaviors that can cause me to get into trouble in my interpersonal life. I was sick of certain patterns in my interpersonal life, so I've done the work to turn that around for myself.
. . .

Do you think that this is a practical approach for most psychopaths? And that if they can learn how to get what they want in socially acceptable ways then most/some can be OK with that? Like I said, win-win -- the altruists would like it.

[here today]

Or does society need to have a different view of psychopaths first? What do you want from other people it's necessary to manipulate to get? I kind of know what it was for my dad but not for somebody like you.

My life has certainly been somewhat miserable because my geekiness didn't fit in well. I had to stuff myself into a shoe box, is how I felt.

I had an interesting session with my therapist a couple of weeks ago. She was trying to explain the concept of relationship “fit” to me because I seem to lack an intuitive understanding of it. She described how she and her husband had met a new neighbor, come back inside and the husband said “She seems nice.” My therapist said that she replied “She and I could never be friends. She seems so fake.”

My therapist knew that I had had trouble with my aunts because they tended to wear a mask of social pleasantness all the time, but what I noticed was that therapist’s first reaction to her husband’s comment was “She and I could never be friends.” Sounded/felt like rejection. I felt appalled, and like recoiling from my therapist. I told her that – we’re doing well, that kind of feeling would have probably been “numbed out” years ago.

Here’s the thing, though. It seems like to “normals”, or some of them anyway, assessing whether or not a new person would click (in your “clique”) is an automatic priority when meeting somebody new. Something in the wiring, maybe? Not the case for me.

This is very entertaining.

[here today]

Originally Posted by ValentinaVVV

This is very entertaining.

......Why?

[TishaBuv]

This post takes me back to my Freshman dorm room, smoking clove cigarettes and listening to Dark Side of the Moon.

Atypical, what do you consider being evil? Is it like enjoying seeing bad things happen to others?

[here today]

The old crone had an answer to this question a while back. Typical that you ignored it. Nevertheless, I’ll give you the link again. (You’re welcome.)

Originally Posted by here today

. . .I spent a lot time obsessing and reading about what “evil” might be a while back and came to the conclusion that it was the withdrawal or withholding of empathy by someone who was capable of it. With what I understand now about myself, when I get into a state that others may experience as evil, I lose the capacity for love and empathy that might characterize me another time. So to others I may seem evil, hurtful, harmful, abandoning, etc. and that may have been very scary for them but really I was just in a state where empathy and love weren’t present, couldn’t be made to be present. So, then, I wasn’t evil either, because it was not the deliberate withdrawal or withholding of empathy or love, it was just that I was so badly triggered that my survival functions took over and dissociated from my social ones.

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

These questions are better suited for Underground, not me.

I'm not always playing a game, I do have this thing called a "life".

Are you saying that I don't have a life???

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

This post takes me back to my Freshman dorm room, smoking clove cigarettes and listening to Dark Side of the Moon.

Atypical, what do you consider being evil? Is it like enjoying seeing bad things happen to others?

I'll answer your question with a question: what do you consider "good"?

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[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by Underground

Are you saying that I don't have a life???

Now why would I say that? You're so silly sometimes.

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[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by ValentinaVVV

This is very entertaining.

Lol, for once you and I actually agree. Ha ha ha!

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[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by here today

Do you think that this is a practical approach for most psychopaths? And that if they can learn how to get what they want in socially acceptable ways then most/some can be OK with that? Like I said, win-win -- the altruists would like it.

I think it depends on the psychopath. Psychopaths are all different, like with any other group of people. I found an approach that works for me but of course I cannot speak for every psychopath, grandiose though I may be I am not all knowing.

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[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by here today

Or does society need to have a different view of psychopaths first? What do you want from other people it's necessary to manipulate to get? I kind of know what it was for my dad but not for somebody like you.


My life has certainly been somewhat miserable because my geekiness didn't fit in well. I had to stuff myself into a shoe box, is how I felt.


I had an interesting session with my therapist a couple of weeks ago. She was trying to explain the concept of relationship “fit” to me because I seem to lack an intuitive understanding of it. She described how she and her husband had met a new neighbor, come back inside and the husband said “She seems nice.” My therapist said that she replied “She and I could never be friends. She seems so fake.”


My therapist knew that I had had trouble with my aunts because they tended to wear a mask of social pleasantness all the time, but what I noticed was that therapist’s first reaction to her husband’s comment was “She and I could never be friends.” Sounded/felt like rejection. I felt appalled, and like recoiling from my therapist. I told her that – we’re doing well, that kind of feeling would have probably been “numbed out” years ago.


Here’s the thing, though. It seems like to “normals”, or some of them anyway, assessing whether or not a new person would click (in your “clique”) is an automatic priority when meeting somebody new. Something in the wiring, maybe? Not the case for me.

What do I want? I have the same basic needs as any other human. I just don't have the emotional component to those needs like most do.

Society being more accepting of psychopaths would be refreshing but I don't expect that to ever happen. People are writing their stories, and people need villains.

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[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I'll answer your question with a question: what do you consider "good"?

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It reminds me of this from Avenue Q! Couldn't get the link to work. Check out Schadenfreuder if you can.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Completely expected.

[Atypical_Disaster]

What's the point of feeling empathy?

[hazn]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

What's the point of feeling empathy?

What's the point of feeling anything?

Empathy is the basis of many other emotions. It must sound alien to you, but these emotions are a part of most people's lives. Presumably you know that, which is why you try to fake them... if you were an emotionless jerk all the time, I guess you wouldn't be able to affect anyone.

Question: You know what it feels like to hurt, presumably you've felt a lot of hurt throughout your life -- right? When you see that your behavior is hurting someone, why can't you stop? Like, you know what you're doing and that you're hurting someone, but you seem to simply not care. I get that you don't know what empathy is, but you know that what you're doing is bad. Hurting someone is bad, I'd hope even narcissists see that. I think the simple truth is: you simply do not care (which I believe you've said numerous times). It's not about your biology, childhood, environment, etc. Yes, these things can and do have an influence on your development, but do they force you to be the person you are? Are you suggesting that you have no control over your actions and that you're a mindless zombie?

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by hazn

What's the point of feeling anything?

Empathy is the basis of many other emotions. It must sound alien to you, but these emotions are a part of most people's lives. Presumably you know that, which is why you try to fake them... if you were an emotionless jerk all the time, I guess you wouldn't be able to affect anyone.

Question: You know what it feels like to hurt, presumably you've felt a lot of hurt throughout your life -- right? When you see that your behavior is hurting someone, why can't you stop? Like, you know what you're doing and that you're hurting someone, but you seem to simply not care. I get that you don't know what empathy is, but you know that what you're doing is bad. Hurting someone is bad, I'd hope even narcissists see that. I think the simple truth is: you simply do not care (which I believe you've said numerous times). It's not about your biology, childhood, environment, etc. Yes, these things can and do have an influence on your development, but do they force you to be the person you are? Are you suggesting that you have no control over your actions and that you're a mindless zombie?

Thank you for answering my post.

Yes, I know what it's like to be hurt. I'm a survivor of torture.

Why can't I stop? Why would I? I don't have any emotional investment in stopping, like you said yourself empathy is the basis for many things and since I don't have the capacity for it it stands to reason that I simply do not care about such things. I don't have the emotional depth to care.

Narcissists don't generally know they're harming others unless they're malignant, then they know. The man who tortured me was a malignant Narcissist. Psychopaths and Sociopaths are fully aware of what they're doing, also. Traditional Narcissists though, they are oblivious to their actions... I see it in my mother's husband all the time. He seriously has no idea when he's being an asshole. Myself on the other hand, I know, I simply don't care.

I don't think any one thing forces me to be who I am. I just am who I am.

I do have control over my actions, I'm most certainly not a mindless zombie though I did find that comment humorous.

I must add to the above. It's all about the childhood, environment and biology. We are not the way we are because we just wake up each day feeling this is what we want, it's what we became because of our childhood, environment and biology. I think you have it wrong with your thought process and what you think of people like me. The non empathy thing only means we cannot understand (feel) others emotions. We're not wired for it and because of this we can't sympathize as a normal person would. Sure we can all understand the meaning of a definition but when it comes to "us" really showing we feel for your situation.... Not gonna happen. Please understand that this is not a purposeful thing we do, it's just what we know or maybe what we don't know. If a child is left alone to figure out the world for themselves, or if they were abused and anything between this is one of the things that happens. I can see someone hurt, crying, happy and so on I just can't look at someone and say your hurting so I'm gonna hurt too. My emotions are always my own and never based on what someone else is feeling. The only times I relate to another's feelings is when I put them there and I feel what I did is great. Mindless zombies???? More like misunderstood people.

Originally Posted by here today

I think that Atypical has been hinting/saying that she believes she is narcissistic more as the result of nature than nurture, although nurture had some part in it. People are scared of the work "psychopath", but Dr. James Fallon had a very good environment growing up, as I understand it, has never been in trouble with the law, is married, is an esteemed scientist, etc.

It also seems clear to me that Underground is more like my dad. It was almost impossible for my dad to be directly mean. Lots of oversights, selfishness, was unfaithful to my mom, etc. Very different kind of narcissism.

Ok Here Today, it's seems I am being labeled as having lots of oversight, selfishness and being unfaithful. Please tell me more.....

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by Underground

Mindless zombies???? More like misunderstood people.

Exactly.