[SophiaG]

Do you think that there are some people, that no matter how hard they try to get better, they can't, not because they don't want to, just because, they lack whatever it is needed to change.

Whenever someone says "they have to want to change." in response to someone that has a mental illness, I want to say to them "but what if inherently they cant change?

I've watched several episodes of intervention and it's absolutely heartbreaking when at the end of an episode you learn that the person has relapsed and has fallen back into their old ways...

Do you believe that some people just truely can't change? Even if they have the best psychotherapist, psychotherapy, combination of drugs ect.

[Tash35]

Such a good question-I wonder myself...

"they have to want to change."...in order to change is unfair. I feel that puts pressure on a person who has a difficult time living through their mental illness...it takes one person to live through what another person lives through, to really understand what changes should be made and what the person goes through...instead of being so preoccupied with HOW they should change.

Do you think the problem with relapse is that people have trouble accepting the person for who they are and what they have? Maybe instead of resisting what a person has, maybe it is better to just love and accept the person for who they are, EVEN during the bad times...as well. It takes a lot of strength to love yourself through the bad times.

Easier said then done though, I know. Most of the problems in all relationships arises when another person can't fully accept another and they want them to change, somehow...without admitting it. But you don't want people you love to hurt themselves either.

It takes a time to get really low to reclaim yourself. Sometimes people just need to do that over and over before change can happen. And that should be okay in this world. It should be okay to fall and ask for help-even if it means, again. I think people can change all the time. Sometimes in ways that are not so evident to others. It just takes time.

I don't know-but good question. I am curious to read other food for thought to your post!

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by SophiaG

Do you think that there are some people, that no matter how hard they try to get better, they can't, not because they don't want to, just because, they lack whatever it is needed to change.

Whenever someone says "they have to want to change." in response to someone that has a mental illness, I want to say to them "but what if inherently they cant change?

I've watched several episodes of intervention and it's absolutely heartbreaking when at the end of an episode you learn that the person has relapsed and has fallen back into their old ways...

Do you believe that some people just truely can't change? Even if they have the best psychotherapist, psychotherapy, combination of drugs ect.

I believe as human beings everyone has the ability to mke their own positive and negative choices, and with those positive and negative choices comes the rewards and consequences of making those choices.

yes I believe there are mental disorders that are uncurable and pose life long challenges for people.

But even in those situations there are treatment options that can allow the person to be systematic free. it may take years and a decade for some to find the right options for them but the person with these problems has to choose for their self whether they want to be free of those symptoms and they have to choose whether they want to work with their treatment providers, it does no good if a person for example is hearing voices but every time they see their doctors they make the choice to say no I dont hear voices, everything is great, life is sunshine and roses for me.

It is true that it takes time to find the right combo of meds per person, But the person has to want to and choose to take the medication and take it consistently every day as prescribed in order to benefit from their symptoms fading and in time they can be symptomatic free.

I think about mentally illness like a normal person making the choice to eat one slice of chocolate cake vs sitting there eating the whole three layer cake. if you want to sit there and eat that cake no person telling you dont eat the whole cake, no diet plans, no medications no surgeries are going to make any difference. the person has to want to get into shape and willfully stop eating that whole three layer cake and choose to follow their doctors approved plan for eating responsibly.

sometimes in life there are challenging obstacles that need to be worked out. using the above example the person having chosen not to eat that whole three layer cake might not be able to lose weight as fast as they want because they are on medication.

but even for this there is a choice. For every medication that causes weight gain theres medication that does not have weight gain as a side effect. the person must choose whether or not they want to discuss the problem with their treatment providers, and they must also choose whether or not they want to try other medications, and they must choose whether or not they want to keep working with their treatment providers until they get the best medication for them.

I believe for everything in life we as human beings have the capability to change the negatives in our life to the positives. sure there are people who have relapses. no body ever promised us there would never be any relapses, even with physical health a person can relapse and their problems may come back, time and time again

but again as human being we have the capability to think and make our own choices. Some people choose to drop out of therapy, some people choose to not take their meds any more, some people choose to self sabotage their own capabilities of having a better life, possibly because being ill is all they have ever known,

but we all have a free thinking brain to make these life altering choices. some choices alter our lives for the worst and other choices that we make alter our lives for the better.

a note about all the reality shows out there, when I watch them I take into consideration that those on these shows are in a very protected environment. take the biggest loser. thats a show about obese people getting back into shape. while they are confined to the property that serves as the show setting these people have limited options for food, and they are put on a very rigorous exercise program most dont have access to when they leave that setting. so of course they are going to naturally gain back some of the weight they lost while on the show once they are back home and theres no fancy gym with all the balls, treadmills swimming pools and someone including all of america watching over them every mouthfull of food they eat.

theres also the ratings. theres an element that the public doesnt see with these shows. you dont see the survivors being pulled aside and told what to do and told others plans of actions, you dont see them being pulled aside and told make this as calm or dramatic as you can, you dont see the people being pulled aside and being told we want this to look like you are getting your life in control so that we can show the viewers how good this show is and how positively we are helping you all. theres out takes that show these people relapse even in the protective settings of the shows.

After I saw alec baldwin and the shows producer of an adictions like show on a talk show telling all these behind the sceens stuff we dont get to see, I stopped watching all these reality type shows. they are not real life, they are good entertainment,

in real life people do have relapses, in fact its a part of the healing process to have relapses and learn how to handle those times.

my advice when watching such shows keep in mind they are meant for entertainment purposes not a replacement for real life. and they dont represent 100 percent real life. on every one of those kinds of shows they are going to give you both positive and negative updates. like I tell some of my clients - if your not ready to handle both the positive and the negatives with such shows why watch them, putting on a positive show where you know you will like the out come would be much less stressful for yourself.

and there again its all about making your own decisions in life and reaping the rewards and consequences of those choices. every one has free will to make changes or not, choose positives vs negative choices.

[sarek]

It is a fact that neurological disorder like AD(H)D or AS simply can not be treated 'away'. Symptoms can often be alleviated but never removed. Yet, especially in the case of AD(H)D people all around often expect changes that the ADDer simply can not deliver. That can lead to many painful and tragic situations.

How will you know you cannot change until you try? Sometimes even small changes can have a big impact.

[krisakira]

I've been having this kind of problem. I want to change but I keep trying and failing, to the point of wondering if I'll ever succeed! Wondering if I'm just gonna be stuck this way forever. My t said that if I fail, I have to try again... It's almost as if she doesn't think I've tried enough times. It's so easy for me to just give up....

[venusss]

If you want to achieve some happiness, you gotta try to find the inner peace... you cannot really say you "tried everything"... there are other routes than the conventional ones... and in the end, it's all you who has to do all the work.

somebody mentioned ADHD... that person may not be able to "think normally" but you can make ADHD work.

You can work around other disorders too... surely, you may want to find a low stress job and make accomodations... sometimes you have to change the goals... but as long as you are satisfied and content... it works.

I think there is only tiny percentage of people who can't change... the others can. But they have to do it themselves and that is where lots us give up.

[kikki27]

Originally Posted by SophiaG

Do you think that there are some people, that no matter how hard they try to get better, they can't, not because they don't want to, just because, they lack whatever it is needed to change.

Whenever someone says "they have to want to change." in response to someone that has a mental illness, I want to say to them "but what if inherently they cant change?

I've watched several episodes of intervention and it's absolutely heartbreaking when at the end of an episode you learn that the person has relapsed and has fallen back into their old ways...

Do you believe that some people just truely can't change? Even if they have the best psychotherapist, psychotherapy, combination of drugs ect.

Hey I know I have tried to change my temper but when you are used to it like getting upset easily .But Is not easy to change overnight Its takes some time .Like lastnight my sister was getting on my nerves and I tried to bite my tongue but the temper got too me first .Just like with a drug user If he or she drugs they are going to take it.

[hayward]

This is an excellent and complicated thread on a subject I have struggled with for years. How do you help someone who doesn't want help, or who wants to change but isn't "capable" of doing it? A person apparently not able to make the choices necessary?
Well, change does require choices and commitment and follow through and sometimes tough decisions, as well as patience with therapy and meds etc...It would be nice to think that everyone can do this if they just "wanted" to , but the truth is that there are millions of people who are stuck and cannot or have not yet been able to push through to the other side.
As I read through these threads, and think about my own life, I keep coming back to this: It is obviously not enough for some people just to want to change. It's really complicated with our biochemical makeups, our histories etc.. But an essential part of what we are leaving out is the support system surrounding this person. People who are flailing in life need grounding, they need support, and follow-up, acceptance and persistence.

For example, say there are 2 people who are both struggling with all of this- lifelong issues which are affecting their lives in negative ways. One of these people is alone with all of this, going from one doctor to the next, getting discouraged with meds, full of negative self talk which feeds into their isolation and frustration. Perhaps the only family "support" they have is from unhealthy relationships who are actually part of the problem.
And then there is another person with similar issues, but he/she has friends or family or someone in their lives who is continuously checking in on them, helping them with appts and follow-through, not letting them just give up. It seems likely that this second person will have a better chance getting out of the circle of pain and frustration.

Obviously this is not a given, and there are plenty of people who, no matter how much support and help they have been given, still cannot change their lives for the better. But certainly it is a variable which makes a big difference. When you hate and don't value yourself enough to get help, having another person care enough to push you is so very powerful. That's why it's essential that the care givers and doctors we go to need to be excellent. For many of us it is difficult to see whether our treatment is healthy or more hurtful. I am sorry if I am rambling.. basically what I am saying is that having an advocate can make a HUGE difference on whether or not a person can indeed make positive life changes. It is unfortunate that so many of us are surrounded by just the sort of dysfunction we need to get away from!

[hayward]

Okay, and having just said all of the above, I want to add this. The definition of what is and isn't acceptable, or "normal" for people is very cloudy at the least. Maybe you think someone needs to change something that can't be changed, or shouldn't be changed, or works better for this person not being changed.
Part of the problem with all of this is that we are taught that there are certain ways of thinking/living/being that are the "correct" "best" or "right" ways to live. That some people are good or smart or successful because they have or do or think A, B, or C.
In reality EVERYONE has issues. And we all need to hold on to what is healthy and good for US, and work on or try to let go of things that are not. What works for one person may not work for another. I am extremely hypersensitive and it causes me much pain. However, if someone said: "Hey, would you rather be like ------? (a cold insensitive person I know)", I would immediately say no. Some of my "'weaknesses" are also my strengths at times, and they are just who I am. Can I learn to make the issue less of a problem for me? Yes, hopefully I can. But it's not because I should be like someone else- there isn't a better perfect way. I want to deal with it better for ME, because it gets in the way of my happiness sometimes. "Shoulds" are harming so many people.
I know for myself that I need to separate out which issues I need to work on because they are interfering with my life, and which ones are just fine. This is a matter of learning to be okay with myself, of finding the self importance I have never had, and of taking control away from my past and those people who have hurt me so much. It is not about me learning to change. It is more about acceptance and coping and making proactive decisions which work best for me- getting to a place where I can feel peaceful and content in the life that I have left.

[Ygrec23]

Great, great question, Sophia. And so much talk! I'm a patient, not a T, but I've lived through the problem, and here's my two cents: There are some conditions that are harder to work around than others. But even with a more theoretically tractable "mental disease" a person can be very heavily entrenched in their situation, making it harder for any T to reach them and help them without very serious consequences. When I was much younger, I saw a number of T's, none of whom either explained to me what my problem was or seemed (to me) to try very hard to help me. I did not understand, and I was very angry with them. Many years later, my present T listened to my story and told me that in all probability my earlier T's wanted to keep me out of the hospital (which two of the prior T's had indeed mentioned). I was just too mentally fragile. So while my condition may have been treatable if I hadn't had responsibilities, the T's made the decision for me and just kept me going to work every day. Now, things are somewhat different and I can attack the problem straight on. Hope this helps.

[splitimage]

Good question. I'm a volunteer on a telephone support line at a psych hospital. I've been doing it for 2.5 years. I'd say the vast majority of our callers are what we call "repeat" callers - callers who call the line once and sometimes twice daily. They are all extremely socially isolated and in some cases we may be the only people they talk to all day. On a typical 3 hour Fri. night shift I get between 5-7 calls. Out of those calls, I'd say only 1 person is genuinely trying to make steps to change their life for the better. The rest are simply stuck, going nowhere, and don't even see the possibility of change.

Now I think there's an element of genetics and how you were raised to explain how much resiliance anyone individual has, and your degree of resiliance is going to largely determine how hard you're willing to work on change, what you're willing to try, and how many attempts you're willing to make. I see this all the time with alcoholism, I'm in AA and I go to non-AA treatment groups as well. Yes I've had more than my fair share of relapses, but I keep coming back and starting over, and trying again, whereas other's once they relapse just give up and keep using.

Then I think there are people who are simply beaten down by the system and poverty. Mental health and addiction care is not well integrated and is badly underfunded here. Wait lists are long, and community agencies are overwhelmed. Navigating the system to get help requires intelligence, perseverence, being pushy, knowing your rights, and knowing how to advocate for yourself. None of those are easy when you're sick. And once you're on disability (ODSP here in ON) you're too focused on survival to focus on change. I think the max a single individual on ODSP can get is $968 / month. That's not a lot to live on in a major city - most likely means you're living in a boarding house that's a dump. One of my cousins is a peer support worker with an Assertive Community Treatment team and she's said that the stats are, once an individual has been on ODSP for a year, there is an 80 % likelihood that they will never return to work. So much for helping people move out of poverty.

--splitimage

[SophiaG]

Wow. So many great responses. o.o

I luff you all. ^_^

This is going to take a while to process.

[(JD)]

Originally Posted by SophiaG

Do you think that there are some people, that no matter how hard they try to get better, they can't, not because they don't want to, just because, they lack whatever it is needed to change.

Whenever someone says "they have to want to change." in response to someone that has a mental illness, I want to say to them "but what if inherently they cant change?

I've watched several episodes of intervention and it's absolutely heartbreaking when at the end of an episode you learn that the person has relapsed and has fallen back into their old ways...

Do you believe that some people just truely can't change? Even if they have the best psychotherapist, psychotherapy, combination of drugs ect.

IMO if a person is able to "try" then they are able to learn in some measure. While I believe there are those who "can't", they are the ones who cannot because of some dysfunction in the brain, etc.

I don't watch "intervention" but have seen similar programs and find that those people are not really making the choice to change, but are hoodwinked into going through the motions.

Others here have talked about how they get up and fall down and get back up, and those who regularly call the support lines...healing is a process that most people want to go faster, or at some other person's urging. It doesn't work that way. What may have taken 30 years to create may take 30 years to undo.

TC

[hayward]

I have a brother who has been in need of help for years. He made some initial attempts, but always came back with "they don't know anything," "no meds have worked or will ever work," and "I don't have the money to waste." He has isolated himself from family, and on the rare contact I do have with him, he makes a point of telling me how absolutely miserable he is while at the very same time refusing any help at all- even talking over me when I try to talk with him. There have been some very disturbing passive aggressive scenes with him.

It seems that my sister and I would have the same conversation every year, wondering if he was now at the point ready for change and to accept help etc.. And then finally it hit me. Maybe this IS who he is. I mean, after 25 years, isn't it possible that this is his personality? Do you know what I mean? WE think he is miserable; he is certainly negative and seems severely depressed. But now I am wondering if this is just who he is. He doesn't want to change, even though he acknowledges that he's in constant crisis. It's poor me poor me no you can't help me go away poor me. I'm guessing that he has become so comfortable with his misery that he does not want to give it up.When he lived near me I did everything possible to try to help him through some really rough spots. Eventually it was all about him just wanting everyone to see how awful things are for him; it's like he really wants us to feel bad and helpless. I have to admit I was glad when he moved away because my own issues were overwhelming as it was.

Sorry, I didn't mean to digress... I guess my point is that sometimes other people see the need for change in someone, and yet the person does not see it the same way, or does not want it, or is actually content with things. I know this sounds terrible, but as bad as things have gotten for him, I have never worried about him ending his life, because I don't think he wants to give up the misery he seems to feed upon. At times he has made it sound like he is basically living in a hole (a real hole), yet I often suspect that he is not really sharing what is actually happening in his life. He throws it all out at your door, and leaves it there for you.Geez, now I feel really guilty. I miss the little brother I had when I was younger, but maybe now I miss someone who is not actually there.

[csidegal]

I have been shaped into who I am, partially, by events that have occurred good or bad. I am the sum of all, but it seems society has expectations that if something good happens in ones life its ok to share in the joy and tribulations and ones life is affected in positive nature and you embraced. But get raped and you quickly learn to suffer it in silence and alone because nobody knows how to help you through it

[SophiaG]

Originally Posted by csidegal

I have been shaped into who I am, partially, by events that have occurred good or bad. I am the sum of all, but it seems society has expectations that if something good happens in ones life its ok to share in the joy and tribulations and ones life is affected in positive nature and you embraced. But get raped and you quickly learn to suffer it in silence and alone because nobody knows how to help you through it

((((((((((((((((((Csidesgal))))))))))))))))

[Perna]

I think change always happens slowly. Watching shows like Intervention and Biggest Loser, etc. we get the idea it should happen in an hour a week

I think anyone who wants to and works at changing will. It is mostly not having been trained in skills needed to make a change, being ignorant about how to go about it. So it can take some time to learn to observe and then learn to know what to do about what one observes, etc. That's why I think therapy was so helpful for me; there was someone else pointing out things that I could do, different ways to think about a problem, and how to better move forward.

When we're growing up we get a certain education. Often we learn poor coping skills or no skills of a certain sort of all so later we have to replace the poor skills with better ones and learn a bunch of other ones that we had no teachers to teach us about before. It's an educational thing to me, not a personality or fault problem. No one else can know what another individual might need growing up and parents do/do not do the best they can with their own parenting problems and an individual takes what one can and protects self against the rest and gets to a certain age where it's possible to take stock and rearrange a bit, jettison some stuff and add more, better stuff in its place.

[Michah]

In my experience, change is fluid and dynamic. We do not live in a vacuum or live "linear" lives.

And just as I think I have a grasp on what has changed, it morphs in to something new.

Change is like love. Just as I cannot force love, I also cannot force change. It either Is or it Isn't......and it seems that as soon as I take my attention away from "making changes" they happen anyway. Good ones and bad ones

I have also found that the greatest internal change happens......when I forgive.

Michah

[Vibe]

First of all, I don't think most mental illnesses can be treated simply by willpower alone. And, in some cases, all the available treatments and remedies we have will sadly not bring that person up to a functional state. I hope this is rare, but I know it is possible.

However, that's not what I think of when I hear that a person must want to change in order to do so. What I think is that one must make a commitment to oneself to go through treatment and try to reach a higher state. Working through such an illness and getting help can be a long and difficult path, and there have been many times when I myself have just given up and let myself succumb to what I saw as the inevitable. But before I could really start making major steps forward in my treatment, I had to acknowledge my problem and decide I was willing to work through it. If I shut myself off to the world, then no talk therapy or anything can work, because I'm not in a place where I'm willing to accept that help.

Thus, I think making that choice to want to change is major. It's not necessarily as easy as people think, and I know sometimes I and others are not in a place where we feel strong enough to make that journey. Sometimes people need to be brought up to a more functional state first before they can start the path to true healing. This is not a reason to judge them, but an element of the illness that needs to be accepted and understood. It doesn't undermine the fact that strength and perseverance of the ill person can be crucial to their own recovery though.

[Vossie42]

I think everyone is capable of changing whether they realize it or not. But they need the right support. And I believe that it's entirely possible that not only have you not found the right medication or combination thereof, but the medication you need may not have been invented yet. The same goes for therapy. Maybe you haven't met the right person or found the right support group yet. But you won't know unless you try. The worst thing for someone to do is to give up trying, but I sure know how tempting that is! And I have given up at times - even for years.

For myself, the obstacles to change are largely psychological. I've had to dig down incredibly deep to find out why I'm so resistant to change. And I'm still digging. For whatever reason, it takes a major event or lifestyle change to jolt me out of my rut and to do something different to get better.

I don't know if any of that made sense, lol. It's late...

[ECHOES]

I think anyone can change.
But I think it can take a lot of work just to get to a place where change seems even remotely possible, and a lot more hard work to keep moving toward that goal, to keep the desire alive and the dream believable.
I also think it depends on what one wants to change. A minor change requires less work and fear-facing than a major change. Major change can require many small steps that require time and support along the way.
I absolutely believe in psychotherapy!

I think it really depends on the condition.

There are some disorders that you really can't change. Disorders that have a very physical cause in the brain. Personality disorders, schizophrenia, etc. however those who suffer from mental health issues unrelated to their brain health probably can under most if not all circumstances: what varies is the level of work put in. It's understandable that some people would claim that they can't change when the effort to change themselves outweighs the amount of time and energy they have.

[alyssa_angel]

'You have to want to change' ...Sometimes you can want to change but simply don't have the tools too, in this case such a statement is really unfair, and can be thrown around by some friends and family as if it explains relapses away. In that sense it is a sort of cop out.

However if you don't want to change something, then well, you won't will you.

That statement is poignant to me because it was and is said to me a lot by a certain someone, which made me really question if subconsciously I don't! Which is silly, of course I do, but there are far too many factors in life to put it down to the want to change. However, I think some things cannot change as has been stated above. Mostly, to be honest, I think it comes down to a mixture of external factors when dealing with curable mental illness, things that you can't always provide or gain.

Just my opinion though

[lonegael]

I think it also helps to know what and how to change. For years I knew something had to change, but what? I was told I had everything from a bad attitude, to immature views on life, to BPD, to being spoiled (that was a good one, I laughed a good while over that) but was unable to get a hold on anything that was able to give me a hand hld enough to work a change on my life until I got a Bp diagnosis and could start working with the therapy I had had up till then. Knowing something's got to give isn't enough. The will has to have something to work with, otherwise it's just flailing and doing the old trial and error. Too many people get too badly hurt that way.