If your mental illness is reccurent does that give people a right to give up on You?

People were talking in another forum how it's perfectly okay for a doctor to give up on a chronic alcoholic if they don't help themselves, or a hairdresser to turn away someone with lice, or a person that is obese and does nothing about it, or a patient whose therapist is tired of seeing them.

My current general physician told me she doesn't want to be my doctor if I didn't show significant diet and weight changes... she does not know my story, my struggles, and how I got here. Needless to say I have not been seeing her lately lol I am in the middle of trying to find a new one.

It seems cruel, when I first think about a doctor dropping a patient, since they aren't seeing any improvement. However, I believe that doctors look at it as their treatment isn't working for you. And they have morals about doing the best that they can do for their patient's health.

Hopefully, they guide the patient to other options ~ rather than simply giving up. That would be a lot more humane!

I think that just giving up on someone is crappy, referring them on to someone else that may be better able to help them is ok (although this does feel a lot like they are giving up on you and you are a lost cause - at least in my experiences with pdocs).

Unfortunately for my situation, she told me all that on my 1st visit with her.

People seem to think that if there will be no end then it's not worth their time to keep trying. If it can't be done in a year, well, tough luck.

I've been bounced around to so many people... it's just so aggravating.

Being cared for is a right in my opinion, so I think it's quite cruel to turn someone away.

Oh I want to say one more thing that I just remembered. Before my current pdoc, my old pdoc told me the rules were that if I ever abuse any medication he prescribed me, he would terminate the treatment. I have a history of overdosing, so it worried me at first, if I was going to mess up... But it actually helped prevent me from doing it, because I didn't want to stop seeing my pdoc. He isn't my pdoc anymore though, not for that reason, but because he retired to take care of his mother. Anyway... just wanna put another side to it, that sometimes it can be motivation to be better like in that case.

yeah, that makes lot of sense. I also think people should be pro-active in their getting better.... if you just to do your doctor for prescription and then go home and continue your bad ways.... then in a way it is waste of resources. and somebody has to pay that.

Not saying economics should come before personal well-being, but I think it would be unfair if those who are worse off through their own fault got priority over people who are better off... because they work on themselves and do the right thing.

Doctors and therapists want to help us but if they are not able to, for whatever reason, then it is a waste of their time and our money to go to them. They have as much right to work on whatever is fulfilling to them in their lives as we have to work or not work on what we choose to in our own lives. If they believe X, Y, or Z will help us and we don't, there is no point to staying with that helper; that wouldn't be very helpful to either party.

I see that we are discussing professionals. What about friends that give up on you because of your mental illness?

Friends that give up on you are not very good "friends" or we are not very good friends to them. Either way, I don't want a person in my life who does not want to be there.

I gave up on anorectic friend. I tried, really tried, but she turned full on nasty on me, telling me constantly how ugly I am, how I am stupid and weird and bad. Had enough issues at the time.

She went through a rough period of drugs, being kicked out of High school, bad relationships. Watched it from far away. People wondered how this "wonderful girl" could turn out so badly. I knew already, because I got to see that from painfully close.

So it depends. One has to protect themselves. It is stupid and selfish to drop somebody because of label... but if they are draining you and bring nothing to you... should you be expected to put others first?


(often people just drift appart and MI is not a reason.... we just tend to view it that way).

In my opinon... I believe it suxs when they do this.. but I'd rather them tell me and drop me, or have me find someone else, than lead me on and cause more problems (as i've had both situations, and had it be doctors, but mostly therapist).
I've also had friends and family give up. some who lead me on to the very end. It seems that's how everyone in my life is.
Another example is in my biological parents. my mother led me on and made me believe that she loved me and would do anything for me, and it was that she was being kept away from me, and couldn't do anything about it. ... so i learned after a very hard hitting rock bottom, that she didn't really care, it was all words... ALL WORDS!! .. and it still angers and pains me.. this truth i found out just a few months ago, when it took me over 20 years to find out. And to find her promise she made me as a 5 year old would never be kept of her coming back for me when she got a place of her own and could take care of me.
While on the other hand, my biological dad just plainly said he wanted nothing to do with me, and to quit contacting him. Yeah it hurt. but i wasn't lead on... and i wasn't believing a fantasy that was never there to begin with.
So if i have to choose between which of the two i would be most okay afterwards, it would be the one that is upfront and not leading me on.

Common sense should prevail. When it comes down to it people will come and go in your lifetime, but good friends are the ones that last. Having a good friendship requires a certain mix and sometimes one's mental health can affect that.

Obviously in a perfect world we could just just answer this question with an obvious no of course no one should give up on you because you have a problem you haven't finished tackling yet, but that's just it, sometimes people really aren't doing anything about it.

I have high standards for people and it does take a certain something to stay as my friend. While having a mental illness does not mean I'll give up on a person, I will if it seems to me like they are a lost cause, refuse to truly deal with their issues, and/or simply don't fit my standards for a friend.

I believe that if a friend is only hurting you or bringing you down, then you have every right to distance yourself. It's not so much giving up on them, because they're not really yours to be giving up on. Sure you might try to help them, but ultimately, you are not their treatment center. So if you do distance yourself, it's not like you are giving up helping them, you are simply trying to keep yourself safe and healthy.

I agree with both you and Venus Krisicakira. I had a very good friend for several years. I always enjoyed her company and talked with her a lot on the phone. She is very intelligent and in the know about many different things, and also reads a lot.

But she had several things happen to her and she began to change. Our conversations were about a man that came into her life (she is much older than me) and promised her romance and love and travel etc. But after traveling to meet her a few times he just kind of dropped her. And she felt so betrayed, which was understandable. And her parents died and other things. Our conversations were more about her repeating things over and over again, conversations with the man, what did they mean and her history with him etc. I never told her she was repeating, I just listened somehow knowing she needed to find a way to accept the big disappointment. This went on for a long time. And she got very demanding too, wanting to go out all the time and to expensive restaurants that I couldn't afford all the time. She would offer to pay, but I don't like that, to me, well its not right.

Then it got to a point where we went out and she got onto politics with some other people and boy she just would not let up. Its ok to be passionate about ones views, but you cant keep cramming it down another person's throat. I was actually embarrassed. But I was nice and didn't say anything and just tryed to gently change the topic. Whew But the next time we went out she started verbally attacking me, she grew to be a very angry person, and I was just there and became the target for all her raging anger.

After that every time she called I did my best to say I was too busy to go out. And finally I just had to be frank with her and distance myself from her. I think I took more than most people would. I try to call her once in a while but she just isn't the same person, is still very angry. I believe she has PTSD because she shows all the symptoms. But she just wants to run, thinks going out to movies and dinner will fix her, but it doesn't and I cant be a punching bag.

Sometime we have to know that some people can just become toxic to us. We have to accept that if our efforts dont help, and we end up being abused somehow, then we have every right to walk away, just as Venus did. That can be sad as we may watch someone end up going down a bad path. But we can only do the best we can do.

Venus is right, we can offer support to others, and even know that they may truely struggle, but if that other person doesn't try to get help, we cannot become another's punching bag.

Open Eyes

Well, what happens when *you* are the lost cause? It's all fine and dandy for people to say "well, if i feel i have to I will drop them" but they who say this are not the lost causes. When *you* are the lost cause, then what? How would you feel? Can you even imagine it? Theoretically a homeless person sitting along the side of the road is a lost cause. he is the dregs of society, that which teenagers walking by kick and attack, who is robbed, who has to be in fear for his life every day.

To be the dregs...to be a lost cause...when people around you are saying you are responsible for your own life when you've tried and tried again, and still fail, or you've lost hope. Or you've gone down the wrong path, and cannot find your way back again.

I don't know there just seems to be something wrong with that picture. To forget a human being, and let them drift on their own.

I guess I just wish people would be more unconditional, and keep trying different things (especially professionals) to help their patients. If not one therapeutic technique then another, if not one medication, then another, if I don't have the knowledge, here is omeone that might be able to help you.

And family members, I just wish there would be more unconditional love. Not everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps, not everyone can deal with life perfectly, not everyone is nice and kind. It just makes me feel really sad that these people are kicked around verbally by others (lazy, druggie, incompetent, weak).

Well, everybody can try. There is a wide spectrum from perfect to lost cause and yes, you can do things for yourself.

People often come up with cute examples as "would you ask person with broken leg/heart issue/whatnot to run marathon?". No, of course, but I would not have any sympathy if they checked out of life. As much as life is hard and many things aren't in our control, some are. You don't have to be perfect, but you don't have to be a burden either.

One thing that bothers me about people with emotional issues is their idolization/demonization of normals. They are supposed to know how we feel, know when to say the right that (and check any of that "what not to say to depressed person lists". Apparently you need to make a research before talking to depressed person.....). They are supposed to love unconditionally. While we are "sick" and it's not "our fault".

Even seemigly normal people have issues. Once I was friends with some person online. She became draining and demanding. At one point she pulled that "I am bipolar card, I cannot control myself". That was when I finally admit, well, that I am too, there just never was time to talk about it, as it was "me me me" all the time. We stayed in contact for a bit though, before kinda drifting apart naturally.

I am willing to go great lenghts for people, but I need to see effort on their site too.

Or shall we all waste our energy and money and time and resources one those who are lost causes and let those who try hard to struggle on their own, because they are doing better?

I can't say I know what it's like for friends and family to give up you; for someone to give up on you means they actually started something to begin with, which I guess means they have to actually care first...

Sophia, I understand your concern and if I was younger I would want to study the human brain, as often it truely isn't mind over matter, there is a real disability that needs to be treated, understood and someone truely cannot simply think their way past certain symptoms of MI.

Venus, if someone takes their own life, there is something very wrong with that person, they are clearly overwhelmed with some kind of issue in their brain and it really is important that person gets help. And I can understand how you may be frustrated if you make efforts to help or understand that person and those efforts are fruitless, leaving you somewhat angry/frustrated.

When I went to a psychward in shock, I was treated poorly and further tramatized by that treatment. It was agreed when I was released by a therapist and psychiatrist that I should have never gone there, "it was the wrong place for me" they said. The problem is that I DID go there and it DID cause further psychological duress for me.
The worst thing anyone can do is take someone who was extremely psychologically effected by witnessing a catastophy and place them in another place where they are exposed to a different extreme environment.

If I have learned anything in my life, I have learned that it is important to gain knowledge and an understanding of the human brain and the different things that can present in a patient with real struggles in their thinking and reasoning abilities. It can be every bit like asking or expecting a person with a broken leg to run a marathon. We know what a broken leg means, we know that it is important to make sure the bones in that leg line up and there is a way to address it in which it can heal. We also know that if a person with a broken leg was coersed into running a race anyway, they would cause further harm to that leg, would not be able to truely participate in the race in any normal way, and would only end up in even more pain and possible disability. But, we do not always know or cannot always see the broken or disabled parts of a human brain that can truely prevent someone from running the race in life and often if we insist or that person continues to try, it can result in more pain and damage and disability.

We cannot expect a layman/woman to know all about the parts of the human brain that present troubling behaviors, moods, severe anxiety, sense of exhaustion, etc.
The only thing we can do is continue to identify these issues and in that added understanding, present some kind of aide that may help a patient learn ways to better run that race we call life as effectively as possible.

The one thing I do know is that my brother was born with some kind of disorder/disability. He was older than me and I witnessed him be totally misunderstood and abused in many ways, everywhere he went and I had to see things that were extremely troubling and my whole childhood was that of fear and confusion. Little did I know that the treatment he recieved caused further damage to his young growing brain. What I experienced, all kinds of environments that truely frightened and confused me, was also damaging my young brain. It is actually very hard for me to learn what it did present in my brain. The one thing it did create is a lifetime of being misunderstood for both of us.

As I have a nephew that is autistic and now old enough to be diagnosed with Asbergers. I see a child that at least has the opportunity to be addressed, not in abusive ways (because he does lose it and throws outrageous tantroms like my brother did) but instead he is addressed in ways that can help him learn how to be a part of the race he will run in his life. He is given respect, not abuse.

I am now a 50+ year old woman who suffers from a disorder that I am trying to understand. I am looking back on years of my own efforts to address my own path through life. I see a little girl, a teenager and all the years up until now where I made many efforts to compensate for something that I didn't know I had. Though I did find ways to survive and thrive, it is hard to learn that my brain had been so effected that this event I experienced would somehow be the straw that broke the camels back in ways I never could have imagined. It can be scarey to look at, it is hard to understand and equally hard to learn that it is not easy to just think my way out of my condition. Because I don't just have PTSD, I have a very bad case of it.
I am truely trying to understand and address "REAL" changes in my own brain that
presents real challenges that frighten and confuse me.

Sophia, I understand your concern about giving up on those that truely struggle, that for some reason cannot seem to find a way to run in the race of life somehow. A person can be disordered somehow and not really be aware of it, or can continuously fail in ways that they themselves do not understand. We are still at the mercy of what we DO know about the human brain. However it is clear that we still have much more to learn. In all honesty, I am at the very least grateful that my own struggle with my disorder is recognized enough to at least help me understand that my struggles are not my personal failures and there are reasons why I struggle and am misunderstood, even by myself.

My own life has taught me to have a lot of compassion for those that truely struggle psychologically. It truely isn't fair to lash out at another human being that presents behavioral issues that they do not understand themselves, often feel confused themselves, struggle with weariness as they make efforts to run in their race of life. I personally address some extremely difficult days where I cannot seem to just "think" my way though some kind of a jam in my thought processes. As I struggle often I am met with the reactions of family members and others that are extremely critical and address me in a way that says "Just deal", "Thats life", "Get over yourself", "Forget about it", "Pick yourself up", "I am tired of your issue", "get up and do something about it", "You gotta learn to push yourself", "That was in the past, I don't drink anymore", "accept that your sister is just a contoling person", "stop wining and stand up for yourself", "researching your illness is just allowing yourself to luxuriate in it", and countless other negetive comments.

Personally I have been on both sides, one where I have done my best to be supportive of others who do suffer, and the other side where I myself suffer and I don't want to be a bother to others. I AM trying to learn about what I am addressing, I AM trying to get help. And I DO often feel very inadequate and CAN become extremely exhausted and frustrated and angry WITH MYSELF. And I have had to walk away from some that suffer beyond my capacity to assist. I don't have the answers for someone who simply will not seek help with their issues. It is a very troubling challenge.

Open Eyes

I have been on both sides of this. It does hurt. A lot. When you're completely broken it means so much more and is so much more difficult when someone you rely on leaves you. I remember wanting nothing more than to be saved. For someone to come along and fix what was wrong with me. It took time before I learned that this was impossible. People can help if you're willing to accept it, but they don't have the level of control over you which would be necessary for them to just make things better. The only one who can do that is you.

Likewise, the only one who can really protect them is them. In a perfect world nobody would ever hurt anybody. But in reality, just as we are hurt by people who give up on us, often people who give up are simply too hurt by us to keep going. I'll be the first to admit that I can be very stressful to people when I'm extremely open about my difficulties. And the people I left were people who were harmful or potentially harmful to my health as well. Remember - your friends are people too.

As for healthcare providers, I think of that in a different light. Imagine if you had a puzzle you were trying to put together. You're good at puzzles, but this particular one stumps you. Every time you make a move that seems right it turns out wrong, or the puzzle throws the piece off and refuses to accept it. Now imagine if this puzzle was a person who was hurting because those pieces weren't together. And that you were charging him money for your services. I don't know about you, but I'd start to feel like a very unethical person if I were charging someone money for something but felt like I was unable to provide a realistic outcome. Something has to change in this scenario. Personally, I'd first reevaluate the patient's goals, but recommending they find someone else might be the best thing for everyone.

I've had the same Pdac for 12 years I think she threatens to fire me every 10 visits however I've been fired by 3 therapists and fired 2. It's hard to get rejected the ones I got Fiedler by I saw one for 7 years and one for 6 years and Abe fir 3 years. I just didn't click with the others. Reflecting back a lit of it was wasted time because I was sheltered and didn't open up. I build walls and dint let people in even family let alone a " stranger" my therapist no matter how long I saw her. I have to accept responsibility in the relationships not going anywhere and my not growing out of them. Yea it was a huge waste of money and time. Go in with an agenda of points you want to talk about and by all means it's ok yo fire your therapist and find one that better nourishes your needs.

While in my opinion Doctors have the right to refuse treatment to anyone for personal reasons, their code of ethics should play a part also.

RE a doctor dropping a chronic alcoholic, I find this distasteful. Alcoholism is a serious disease of the MIND. It's more than just a "why don't you just stop drinking" kind of treatment. It's not that easy. Addicts and alcoholics are not just WEAK pathetic people, they honestly can't stop, knowing the HUGE implications it has for living a "normal" life.

I think it depends on if the alcoholic is using the recommended treatment. Yes, some need repeated rehab, but are they going, are they committed to getting better, most of the time, because, if they aren't, I don't think it's unreasonable to drop them.