Positive Self Image

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Oneday -- It took a lot of courage for you to respond to IG as you did, yet with tact. I hope I will do as well. I also have noticed this pattern of IG to brush off compliments; in essence, telling the other person, "you lie." There also are times when I've noticed statements about the Forums that let us all know that we don't measure up to IG's expectations of how people should behave to him -- sometimes subtle statements -- what my mother used to call the "snide remark."

I've been reading this thread with great interest, and absorbing what's being said.

I think that to some extent I have to earn my positive self-image. When I behave consistently with the things I say that I value, I feel better about myself. One of the things that I have been learning over the past two years is to show myself the same compassion and understanding that I might show to others. So that when my inner crab-apple voices tell me I'm not good enough, I can offer myself a bit of self-love and understanding.

It's not been easy and I have a long path to walk. The useful thing about this approach is that in being gentle with myself, in learning to have mercy and compassion even for myself -- it takes my attention away from focusing on what I did wrong and puts my attention on developing positive qualities that I value. In other words, instead of getting into a thought-feeling loop about "I'm clumsy, I'm stupid" etc. -- I now put my attention on: "How would I behave if another person made this error? How can I show myself the compassion that I would want to show someone else?"

Or at least -- I move my attention toward compassion, as much as I am able to in any given situation, on any day. But I make an effort -- and reminders from my Forums friends not to indulge my bleak, distorted thoughts help me to do so.

I start to give myself kind messages that I would give to someone else -- "It's okay. It's just a thing that you broke. You can apologize to this person and make things right. You will learn from this and do better."

So then, in that moment, instead of being in self-negation, I am in the practice of compassion toward myself. I may even do something kind for myself then.

If I cannot practice compassion toward myself, can I ever practice it toward others? Or is outward compassion that I can't give myself just a "mask" I wear or role I play?

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I'm sorry but this entire response really upsets me for a few different reasons. I've hesitated to say this but I felt I had to. I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend you with my comments.

I really don't like the direction that this thread is going. Maybe it's just me but if I were IG, I would be feeling very depressed after reading this thread with all the well-meaning negative comments directed to him.

Not everybody is at the stage of recovery as it seems most of the people posting are in this thread. Some of us are just new into recovery.

If we don't love ourselves than we can't receive love from others? I know for a fact that is not true. I don't love myself but Cheshire Cat loves me and he tells me every day. So it is possible. I don't doubt his love for me and he knows how I feel about myself.

If you grow up with a childhood where you never heard "I love you" and that never showed any love and where you were constantly told you weren't good enough and you've been continually rejected, abused and abandoned, it is very hard to love yourself. Where are the reasons to? Yes, I do know that I have some good qualities so I don't feel like I'm a total loser but I have a lot to work out in therapy to get to the place where it seems most of you are at. I'm not at all negating that everybody here has had a rough life and trying to imply that mine was harder, just that we are all at different stages of recovery and I think we need to be aware of that.

It's not an act or facade of love that I have for the Cheshire Cat. It is VERY real. I have a LOT of love, compassion and empathy in me to extend to others but I don't know how to extend it to myself. Hopefully with a lot of therapy and the love of cat, I will eventually get there.

Maybe IG has had an equally hard life, I don't know him so I can't really say, I just think that even though y'all have extended advice, observations and compassion towards him and he hasn't been able to receive it is no reason to give up on him. He obviously needs more time, more therapy. Gosh, I don't think anybody is worth giving up on. What does that do to his psyche? How about a little more patience for somebody who is having a harder time to get where y'all are. He obviously needs that, so do I. We're not going to change overnight what a lifetime has done to us. I hope that nobody decides to give up on me if I don't get something the first, second or even the tenth time.

Sorry, don't mean to offend and I'm off my soapbox. I just needed to put in my one cent worth FWIW, which is probably nothing. All I can say is I'm sure glad that cat is not giving up on me because I'm having a hard time with it. I would be missing out on the wonderful love that he is giving me and then I would be the loser and my self-esteem would dip even lower.

Dear Isolated Guy: Last summer, I posted a list of reasons why I am a complete a failure. A well liked and respected member (Dexter) refuted each one of those reasons.

He took a lot of time to do that, and I was deeply touched. It seems to me that many people here are taking a lot of time to try to reach you. Bear in mind, we all come here for love and support; we all ache at least sometimes in some ways.

Please be assured that this post comes from love, from caring, from concern for you and your well-being. Comes from those times when I live in a cave and isolate – and even isolate now, to no small extent. Comes from knowing the deep pain of loneliness.

<font color="green">September Morn: Hopefully this [the posts] will encourage you to take stock of your strengths and attributes so that you don't need to depend on anyone else for them. Someone else will always let you down because no one is perfect. You can't depend on someone else as well as you can depend on yourself. After all, you're the best judge of what you need and don't need.</font>

<font color="blue">Isolated Guy: SeptemberMorn, it's so simple to say just love and accept your self but that's not all it takes. You say "don't depend on anyone else". . . . I've noticed those who preach "all you need is yourself" are seldom the ones who experience true isolation and actually have be forced to try to practice it.</font>

My $0.02: September Morn did not say, “Don’t depend on anyone else.” She said – don’t depend on anyone else for your ultimate sense of self-acceptance and self-worth <font color="blue"> as much as</font> you depend on yourself for that. This is quite different from not depending on anyone.

People who have a core of self-acceptance and self-worth rarely need suffer isolation, because most of us enjoy being around such people. Thus there are two paradoxes:
[ol]
[li]It is through self-acceptance of our positive traits as well as our negative qualities/actions/attributes that we gain positive self-image.

[li]When we have an inner core of self-acceptance and positive self-image, we are more attractive to others.

<font color="blue">Isolated Guy: But as long as they are "pretty boys', women will throw themselves at them.</font>

<font color="green">SpazKatt: I happen to be a woman, and I do not throw myself at "pretty boys" I tend to find them repulsive because they KNOW how attractive they are.</font>

My $0.02: I’ll bet just about every woman who reads the list wonders who these women are who “throw themselves at pretty boys.” Who these women are who, in fact, are going about “throwing themselves” at any men.

Yes, there is a dance of courtship and rising passion. But women who “throw themselves” at men? Are you listening to yourself? Do you hear the subtle insult of that?

<font color="blue">Isolated Guy: Where are ALL these women who want a man for his personal characteristics and don't care about his looks?</font>

My $0.02: They used to hang out in the tiny bedroom of my severely disabled friend Alan, with the shrunken body who couldn’t lift a glass to mouth. Don’t know where they’ve disbursed to now since he died.

Realistically, they are all around you, IG. But you call any female who makes this statement a liar. Doesn’t seem like an approach to dating that is likely to be effective, but if it works for you, who am I to argue?

<font color="blue">Isolated Guy: All I'll say though is two weeks in the personals with roughly 3000 women looking and not one reply says it all</font>

My $0.02: Nope, it doesn’t say it all. (1) I haven’t read what you wrote as your ad, but I’ve read a bunch that are real turn-offs, whether or not the guy has his photo posted. Guys who sound needy. Guys who make it all too clear that this is about sex. Guys who reveal their inward fear of and dislike of women by saying that they don’t want a woman who “plays games” or who is looking for a “sugar daddy” or anyone of a half-dozen such telltale phrases.

Given your penchant for letting women know that we’re liars who don’t live up to your expectations, I’d have to read what you wrote before I formed an opinion.

(2) If you have waited for one of the 3,000 women to find you, perhaps they are all sitting at their computers waiting for one of 3,000 men to contact them. That man could have been you. Women’s lib notwithstanding, it remains traditional for the male to reach out first.

(3) A lot of people don’t buy the Yahoo membership, just troll the dating ads for free. That means all you can send is an icebreaker. And if the other person also is not a paying member, there is no way for them to reply.

<font color="blue">Isolated Guy: I've never heard of a woman wanting to pinch a man's mind.</font>

My $0.02: And Patty Smith said that no man wants to run his hand up the leg of an Ms. Yet, despite it all, people manage to get married and have children. People who are blind. People who are disabled. People who have hairlips and hairy legs. People who are fat and people who are bone-thin. People of every size, shape, color and description; with and without terrible illnesses; of greater and lesser intelligence, kindness and wealth. And some who are a good deal less attractive looking than you.

<font color="blue">Isolated Guy: As far as The Beauty is in the "I". My opinion is that it sounds nice on paper but doesn't always apply in true life. It's still my firm opinion (which I think many don't want to think could be true) . . . that you can't truly love/accept yourself unless you've also received some of that from others as well. </font>

My $0.02: Haven’t you been offered love and acceptance here?

<font color="blue">Isolated Guy: I get the feeling many would be more than happy if they never see me here again.</font>

My $0.02: No one has said or implied any such thing. They way I see things, people on the Forums have virtually thrown themselves at you with an outpouring of love and support. In We have tried to reach you every way we know how. We are concerned for you, Gary. We are not interested in creating a situation where you leave.

<font color="blue">Isolated Guy: I'm not saying it's not "me' that's the problem but a good part of it could be that my different perspective just make some people start to think of something they're afraid of because it goes against what you've believed for so long.</font>

My $0.02: Yes, you are saying that it’s not you that’s the problem. You’re saying it’s the world. "I'm not saying that" is camougalge for one of those remarks that let us know how we’ve failed to live up to your expectations by accusing people of a negative character trait. Many people have suggested that you are living in a world of distorted perceptions. Your remark suggests that the only way we can be your friends and earn your approval is to agree with you. And if we don’t agree with you, it’s not because you are wrong, it’s because we are afraid.”

I think, in the language of addiction therapy, what’s going on here is an online “intervention.” When a user is in denial and refuses to do anything to help herself, family and friends will get the person in a room and make her listen to the ways her alcohol or drug addiction affects them and her. How she isn’t a good friend anymore, a responsible parent or wife, a sloppy employee, doesn’t take care of her appearance and health. I hope you will intepret this, not as a message to leave, but to use the Forums as a place for support, healing and growth.

Here is the research about appearance, so far as I am familiar with it:

1. An employer will hire a more attractive candidate over a less attractive candidate of equal credentials. Thin people are preferred over heavier ones; non-smokers over smokers; and employers aren’t too keen on hiring people with dangerous hobbies such as sky-diving and rock-climbing.

2. People tend to marry people of about equal attractiveness. This is mitigated if the male has money and power. Not looks, IG, money and power. The “trophy wife” syndrome.

3. I know of no research that supports the hypothesis that females “throw themselves” at men who are “pretty boys.”

Isolated Guy, as others have said on this thread, developing a positive self-image is, ultimately and fundamentally, an inside job. You can wait for the women of Yahoo to beat a path to your door; you can wait for the world to agree that everything in it exists according to the laws of Isolated Guy, but it seems likely that you will wind up waiting alone. You don’t seem to like that option very much, and insisting that the world behave as you think we should doesn’t seem to be an effective strategy so far, now does it?

I hope you’ll keep posting and thinking things through with us.

I've not been this blunt with another human being whom I don't know in my life, and I pray that I've done the right thing.

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If you grow up with a childhood where you never heard "I love you" and that never showed any love and where you were constantly told you weren't good enough and you've been continually rejected, abused and abandoned, it is very hard to love yourself.

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I was all these things, yet here I am telling you that you need to know yourself better and see all the good things in you whereby you begin to like, then love yourself.

And I also said but you didn't quote that I was not negating what anybody else has been through in their life and that we are all at a different place in our recovery. You are obviously farther along than I am. I'm just starting, my change is not going to happen overnight.

((((((((((((((((((((((AngelGirl)))))))))))))))))))))))

Keep going!

Wants2, thanks for the hugs. I will keep going.

AngelGirl ya got all mine to
Angie

Thanks! Geez, and I thought I was gonna possibly get flamed for my post. All these hugs feel a heck of a lot better than that. Thanks!!! (((((((((angie))))))))) (((((((((wants2))))))))

Oh ye of little faith, honey WE ARE NOT going to reject you like others have. You will find the trust I promise
Angie

I have a very difficult time with positive self image. On the inside I feel that I fall short so much of the time. I have been told that I am way too hard on myself but this is something that is very difficult for me to change. And what is even harder for me to deal with is when people make comments about the way I look on the outside and that I should be thankful. Looking a certain way on the outside has nothing to do with the way a person feels on the inside and society just doesn't seem to "get" this. I'm reminded of a poem by Yeats, which I can't remember the title of at the moment but in this poem, Yeats is basically saying that producing something beautiful is not easy (in my case a beautiful self-image inside). Yet, the modern world of Yeats, like ours, with its emphasis on financial success and advancement believes beauty to be easy and natural. Beauty has the curse of looking easy. That is, I suppose, part of the beauty of beauty. Beauty cannot be coerced, it can only be brought out. Society has no concept of the true nature of beauty.

I don't know what to say! Even though I have trouble agreeing with some of the advice, one thing is for sure. I DO know people here care and I will never question that again. Thank you sooo much. I'm also a little confused about something that happened to me yesterday and I guess it's a good kind of confusion. I took the chance and took a picture of myself to send to a good online friend in another forum. Her reply to me was nothing but compliments and she said she couldn't understand why I didn't think I was good looking. That really made my day but I looked in the mirror and I have to say I just don't see it! I have to be honest and say though I am feeling a little better about myself right now but I still feel like self doubt is attempting to take over again.

What positive self image? My depression and anxiety started when I was too young to remember (an infant) and it is only in the past year (thanks to finally going into therapy with a super T) that I have been able to admit I have any value. Positive self image has to come from within us but it can be influenced by those around us who give us credit for a job well done. In my struggle to live and to learn that life can be fun and enjoyable and not always scary and dangerous I have also learned the I do certain things well and can now take credit for those things. As yet, I have not translated those things I do well into a positive image of WHO I am.
That is a good and important question, Myzen. Thank you.

Dear EG -- I think you are correct that outward beauty -- as wealth, fame, or power -- can create a barrier in relating to others and developing positive self-image.

A person with good looks, wealth, or power is often never quite sure whether other people value them for the inner "self" or the outer trappings. When I was a reporter, I had a address book chuck full of phone numbers. During a serious injury when almost no one called or visited, I realized that "I" wasn't a friend of these people. Most of them were only interested in being friends with "little miss star reporter for a powerful newspaper."

You are taking constructive steps to figure out who you are, and I believe that it will pay off for you in the long run. Beauty fades, and the women who rely solely on it wind up look like ads for cosmetic surgery.

Best wishes to discovering a half-full glass.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((Empty Glass)))))))))))))))))))))))

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I'm just starting, my change is not going to happen overnight.

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Oh, please! I think we all know that everyone is at a different stage in their recovery. The reason I quoted what I did is because that's part of the greater issue. It's not expected that you or anyone accept what is being said and act on it immediately. All some of us would love to see is that some of our help is at least THOUGHT about, questions asked as to how we accomplished what we have. Maybe a little less deffensiviness and a bit more thought and questioning about the fine points would ease our own frustration and impatience and would help US.

You mentioned that the direction this thread was taking was upsetting you. Good! That means that what is being said is taking you out of your comfort zone... and that means CHANGE. Presisely those things that make you angry need to be looked at introspectively to find out WHY. What in you needs a different perspective so that you understand rather than get angry.

I have faith in you, AngelGirl. You seem to have a more open mind than some around here.

RE: Post ##116209

YES!! My dear, sweet friend. You are FLYING!

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I think I have much to give but no one wants to receive it.

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Something else I've had experience with. It's the manner, the attitude in which it's given. Those of us that are needy, while we're giving love, we tend to whine about it. Somewhere, in the giving, our own self-pity gets into the mix and comes out stronger than the giving. That's the best way I can describe it. With me, it's humor. I'm making people laugh but it's the neediness in me that's coming out stronger than the humor. People get tired real quick of that!

Something else I've had to check myself on; when I give hugs in 3D. Am I GIVING a hug, or am I taking it? I've caught myself TAKING hugs and hanging on desperately to the person giving it. Eventually, they won't want to give hugs anymore because they/we can actually feel the strength being zapped right out of us with those hugs! I know I can! It's almost suffocating!

Good idea to check yourself out when you're "giving" what you have to give.

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t's not an act or facade of love that I have for the Cheshire Cat. It is VERY real. I have a LOT of love, compassion and empathy in me to extend to others but I don't know how to extend it to myself. Hopefully with a lot of therapy and the love of cat, I will eventually get there.

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Thank you for pointing this out, AngelGirl. I was doubting myself, that I can express real love and compassion for others if I cannot love myself. Or am I just imitating what I see other people do?

Your message made me see that I am expressing real concern for others. In fact, I had contradicted myself -- I said I ask myself how I'd treat someone else in a similar situation to try to get a clue for how to show myself acceptance and compassion. So, obviously, I was interpreting those feelings for others as being real.

I too, come from that deep place of negative self-image, and I have been walking this path for 30 years!!!! It is a very long journey. There are many ways to sabotage oneself along the way. That's why the Forums are so great. Friends here can point out distorted thinking, as you just did for me.

So thank you, AngelGirl, for helping me to honor the caring part of myself as real.

this is such an interesting post!

Well, I made a positive post this morning and I come back now and see it was invisible. Maybe I was right after all about those who are "in" or "out". And I should just "love" myself. LOL LOL LOL LOL

lol....

I just got home IG...but I am really happy that you may be "seeing the light". I continue to read with interest.

Let's keep a tally of positive posts on both our parts.

1....lol

This is always what happens. The rare times I feel better, it seems something else will happen to counteract it.

So you want us to support you and ignore others who post hurting the same as you, where we're you when they posted, hun it's a 2 way street, what you give so shall you recieve
Yes I did see your post #116301 at 10:27 am, the only reason I didn't reply was I was supporting another person
Angie

Did I say anything about ignoring others? That's irrelevant. To be fair, I don't blame anyone for not wanting me here. I'm no better or worse than anyone else here, just different and I'm very sorry.

Sweetie how are ya different, you have a small problem with self-esteem and thats all.
Your a nice guy, why not tell us more about what you like, hobbies, type of work ya do, general life stuff, let us get to know the real you, not the sad guy
Angie