I recently read that when someone thinks the world revolves around them-- it's being narcissistic... it said that when one thinks things ARE-- or happen-- because of them.

well, then I'm wondering...
been told I tend to have "ideas of reference"-(I think that's what it's called)-- where if something bad happens and I'm nearby then I'm to blame..... like if a crane is doing work outside a building and I'm in the building-- and then the crane crashes a part of the wall of the building-- I feel it was my fault-- I feel guilty-- like if I wasn't there it wouldn't have happened. so.... I'm confused if this is narcissistic or is it ideas of reference or could it be both?

anyone have any thoughts or answers to this?-- I'd appreciate it.

thank you,
mandy ps-- might take me a bit to reply back, as my computer is out being fixed(fingers crossed), and I only have limited time when borrowing this one.....

[Fuzzybear]

IMO you are NOT narcissistic!

I don't know much about "ideas of reference" but it makes sense.... I have huge guilt issues but not quite to that extent or in those types of situations

Mandy

PS I'm not sure how accurate this is, but one source I just read said that "ideas of reference" as opposed to "delusions of reference" are an exaggerated form of self consciousness, related to social anxiety? (not exact quote, PM me if you want to)

According to another source, it's linked to projection

[Direction]

I guess I don't know much about all of this...less about about narcissism. Not sure at what point thinking that world revolves me turns into narcissism...I think a lot of people view the world through their eyes and how everyone around the effects their lives as opposed to how we may effect others...

Hadn't heard of "ideas of reference"...I know I feel a lot of times things are my fault...though I'm usually part of relationship...in your example...I may have contracted with crane company or signed the contract or something like that...so i guess I haven't really expereinced that...

Sorry I'm not much help

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
IMO you are NOT narcissistic!

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> well..... I do wonder about myself sometimes..

those guilt issues are rough, aren't they!? sorry you have them too.

and thanks for the "ps".... "exaggerated form of self consciousness"--- I think that explains a lot! ..... perhaps linked to "projection"?.. hmmmmm... have to go look that up.
Thanks Fuzzy.

mandy

[gardenergirl]

Ideas of reference
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideas_of_reference
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>

Delusions of reference involve a person having a belief or perception that irrelevant, unrelated or innocuous things in the world are referring to them directly or have special personal significance. Ideas of reference should be distinguished from delusions of reference and they are an exaggerated form of self consciousness, usually driven by social anxiety.

The two are clearly distinguished in psychological literature. People suffering from ideas of reference experience intrusive thoughts of this nature, but crucially, they realize that these ideas are not real. Those suffering from delusions of reference believe that these ideas are true.

In their strongest form, they are considered to be a sign of mental illness and form part of a delusional, paranoid or psychotic illness (such as schizophrenia or delusional disorder).

They may include experiences such as:

* feeling that people on television or radio are talking about, or talking directly to them
* believing that headlines or stories in newspapers are written especially for them
* having the experience that people (often strangers) drop hints or say things about them behind their back
* believing that events (even world events) have been deliberately contrived for them, or have special personal significance
* seeing objects or events as being deliberately set up to convey a special or particular meaning

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Narcissism involves, among other things, an inflated sense of importance, uniqueness, and abilities. For example, a narcissist might take credit for being the "subject" of a newspaper article when in reality they may have only provided a small quote or sent in a comment. Or they may attribute the motives to someone's behavior as being related to them primarily, as in, "You're jealous of me, and that's why you have to work so hard at that, so you can beat me." When in actuality, it may be that the other individual has a strong interest in whatever that action that exists completely outside the narcissist. Perhaps the person never even thinks about the narcissist's actions and purses the activity for their own reasons.

So ideas of reference are sort of an off-base thought reaction to something sort of random and/or mundane. These thoughts can develop out of increased self-consciousness, anxiety, stress, etc., If they are delusions of reference, where the individual actually believes it to be true, this could be a sign of psychotic thinking. And narcissist's beliefs that things are about them or relate to them stem from the narcissist's need for self-love and therefore exaggerating the importance of or relation to, etc. of events.

hope this helps,

gg

Direction,

It is complicated to me.... "ideas of reference"-- I understand it to mean that one feels things are linked to them in some way-- like a group of people are laughing near me at a restaurant-- I believe they are laughing at me -- for what reason? I don't know-- they're just laughing at me. or like I stated about the crane-- I didn't employ the crane or even know who's driving it-- I just happen to be there doing seperate business inside and then there is an accident, that I'm sure wouldn't have happened if I wouldn't have been there. It's like feeling that I'm responsible for things because I am around.... it causes me to keep a distance with others as I don't want them to be hurt nor do I want to be hurt. .... was told "idea of reference" is a part of schizotypal disorder... I'm just not clear on if it's considered narcissistic though......

Hey please don't feel your post was not much help-- your reply did help me -- in that, I WAS noticed! I always appreciate a reply-- thank you.

Direction-

mandy

thanks gardenergirl for posting that info.

first.... let me get back to Fuzzy, referring to "projection"-- I found this:-- PROJECTION--" is a defense mechanism in which one attributes to others one’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and emotions. Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted subconscious impulses/desires without letting the ego recognize them."
-- except in my case I think it increases anxiety-- so maybe in those instances it's not projection....??.... am I getting more confused??!

I think I understand gardenergirl-- that if a thought/action "inflates" ones self it's narcissistic-- but since my reactions and thoughts do the very opposite, then it must not be narcissistic..... I guess that's what it means.

whew-- have to go take a break-- this "heady" stuff is making my mind feel dizzy!

thanks for your help.

gardenergirl-

mandy

[RiverX]

Hi Mandyfins,
See if my expereince relates:
In my fam.of origing, my mother was shameless, probably narcissistic, everthing and everyone was only as good as they met her values, and she had no conscience or awareness of how she treated others.
I became shame based. Paralysed or undermined by shame for much of my life. Now I see it as - I took on her shame that she didnt own. I was so invaded by her and wanted to dissociate myself from her behaviour, so I went to the opposite extreme, I acted 'underentitled' ..

I stayed hooked in abusive situations.

So, it was like I acted out the disowned role in the family.

What I have now learnt, about the schizoid pd, is the origins are very particular, different to Ns and other disorders, in that we become like psychic char ladies, that is we are sort of hoover up the left over jobs that no one is doing, and one of those can often be to take responsibility, so, we take responsibility all over the place, we get invaded by others behaviour etc, even accidental. Tttthis is like a kind of reverse to narcissism. It has a kind of completely different motivation and feeling about it.
It seems more delicate and caring, and senssitive, not like the Ns who are like kind of steam rollers, quite opposite.

That is how I have come to understand this. I also feel pain and responsibility. I have felt an impulse to apologise for my sisters behaviour for exammple. Now, for my recovery, I have to take responsibility to not absoarb others disowned stuff, and I feel like I'm only at the beginning, I often feel weak and empty, but thanks for listening, I think its helpful for me to express this, hope it is some help to you.

RiveX ps, comp keeps getting stuck so i cant correct the mistakes.

[Fuzzybear]

Good post RiverX!

<font color="#000088">A lot of people with low self esteem issues might blame themselves,or feel guilt type feelings for such events like you described.Just because they happened to be in the area, they feel they may have somehow jinxed the situation or event into happening,because of how bad they feel about themselves. Usually it's due to having a pattern of long term emotional abuse as a child growing up, and being told that you are bad,and that ruin everything. Repeated abuse like this can cause a person to have these feelings when they get older, especially if they haven't been able to process the abuse they went through properly with a Therapist for a good period of time to bring up their self-esteem to where they don't continue to feel that they are just a bad person in general that carries bad vibes with them wherever they go. I hope that makes sense to you,or helps in any way. </font>

thank you for replying RiverX.
Yes, this relates to me VERY much: </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
In my fam.of origing, my mother was shameless, probably narcissistic, everthing and everyone was only as good as they met her values, and she had no conscience or awareness of how she treated others.
I became shame based. Paralysed or undermined by shame for much of my life. Now I see it as - I took on her shame that she didnt own. I was so invaded by her and wanted to dissociate myself from her behaviour, so I went to the opposite extreme, I acted 'underentitled' ..

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> ..... I told myself while growing up, "I'm never going to be like HER"...... looks like I accomplished that.

I feel so much pain and bad feelings when someone else is abused or subjected to injustice-- so much so that, my feelings can get in the way of my daily life--- maybe that's the PTSD reacting???... I don't know.....

Hope your computer is better now-- mine is out of commission still so I only have a limited time to be here...... which is difficult for me-- it usually takes me much time-- thinking, when reading posts and to reply..... but *sigh*.... my time is short for now.......

thank you,
mandy

Thank you for replying Justice.

I think self-esteem does have some to do with how I think about things-- you're right about that. and also right about emotional abuse setting a pattern in my way of thinking. Yes this all makes very good sense--thank you.

I also think in my case, trauma(PTSD) has made it that much harder to get beyond this pattern of thinking/feeling. I struggle to trust anyone to help me..... so fearful of anyone getting close. But, I am trying hard by reaching out here and also have been keeping it distant(but still a connection) by emailing my former T., instead of meeting with him in person...... this feels less threatening to me.

Well, thanks for your insights-- they are helpful.

mandy

[altonwoodsdrphil]

hello mandyfins,well i definitly agree that from what you've described you don't seem narcisstic. my first thought was that you seem "egocentric" thats a term often used to describe how children process events primarily concerning their family systym.children are "self blamers" because of their immature perception/belief that the world does somehow revolve around them and that they are therefore responsible for it. how long have you been aware of this aspect of your personality? you seem fully aware that it's irrational and that its interfering with your relationships,you're here asking questions,and those are good things imo.I have done pretty much the same thing that you're talking about in my adolescense/early adulthood,for me it had to do with not feeling special enough in my family. i know you'll work through this,because you seem motivated to.good luck!