[Myzen]

Hi folks,

I guess it's a well known fact that people with depression/anxiety disorders tend to use alcohol to 'take the edge' off the bad feelings.

I have been ill with the above for nearly all of my life (it started at 16). Alcohol has always been a part of my life, initially through peer group behaviour and then socially.

When my daughter was little I was teetotal for 7 years. I felt rough for a lot of that time, with a lot of anxiety which I managed to hold down. My friends tell me that alcohol is not my problem, and I think they are right, but I am concerned by how much I drink now that I am older.

I have a pattern, which is to drink most or all of a bottle of red
wine with an evening meal, to be slightly hung over the next day and then have a day clear. Then I do it again. So, I probably drink at most three bottles of red wine per week. It's not a huge amount, but I do find that the wine makes me feel easier, as if it were a medication rather than just a social drink. Also it helps me to eat, which has often been a problem with the anxiety. The alcohol also tends to 'jerk' me out of tired depression, and helps with the creative writing that I do.

I don't take any medication, despite having been prescribed SSRI's on more than one occasion. My fear of the SSRI's is a fear of getting panic attacks, which don't come very often these days. Also I have seen friends on SSRI's and I don't like the way it can change them.

So, my question is this. I have a coping strategy that includes three bottles of wine per week, maybe a bit less. This has been stable for ten years or so. Do people think that this is OK, or should I cut down or even give it up?

I have been pretty good at giving things up, I gave up smoking a few years ago, and I have never been hooked up on other recreational drugs, although I've tried them.

[hamstergirl]

Your coping strategy is a one way ticket to blowing out your liver. One glass of wine with a meal, I can visualize as being safe, but you're putting away whole bottles of wine.

That was pretty close to where I was at when I quit drinking. I binge drank on occaison for the same reasons you do now...to cope with my depression. I was putting away 1 litre of alcoholic cider at a sitting.

It's a coping strategy, but not a very good one. If one is putting away drinks to deal with emotional problems, s/he is a problem drinker, because this thing has a way of growing on you. It stays with you like a lost puppy. When I drank like this, I also found that I minimized the problem, saying "It's not that bad." Well, it was.

Just because your levels have remained stable for a long time doesn't mean your health isn't at risk.

I'm currently on Wellbutrin and while it didn't take care of all of my depression, it did take care of my fatigue. It did not change me for the worse. Then again, my doctor is hesistant to raise my medication levels for fear of what it will do to me (I have cerebral palsy.)

There is more than one type of anti-depressant out there and you have to be willing to experiment to find the one that's right for you. Alcohol messes with your health too much. Maybe not now, but you'll regret it in the long run, like smoking cigarettes.

I'm a writer too and one book I read on the subject said that writing and alcohol do not mix.

Psych Central does have a special forum for this, if you need to talk about it further..

[Myzen]

Hi Hamster Girl,

Ouch! I'm humbled.

I guess I'll take some time out on the wine thing. I was expecting to have to take some action on this, otherwise I wouldn't have posted I guess. Thanks for the wake up call.

On the medication front I'm a bit more stubborn. I have seen people go downhill fast on some medications and I have this weird belief that if I'm not on medication I'm not too ill. Maybe it's pride, and we all know what pride comes before.

With regard to your own condition, you have my deep respect. I know that can sound patronising sometimes, but it's not meant to be.

[saudade]

Hi.

From your description, it's hard to tell if the amount of alcohol that you think good is doing any real damage or not, now or in the near future.

It sounds that it makes you feel alright and under control... If that is true... See I'm on medication and all but for a long while I'd smoke pot and feel really well and that it was very therapeutic to me...

Deep inside, you probably know what's best for you, and if the wine is only a habit and not a pleasure or if it's helpful and not damaging.

[hamstergirl]

The Risks of Heavy Drinking

[Myzen]

Hi HamsterGirl,

Thanks for the info, I'm starting to make some changes.

Good Luck

Myzen.

[emwell]

Myzen
I have read the responses you received. I have questions, not opinions on your drinking.

Please clarify this statement. </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I have a pattern, which is to drink most or all of a bottle of red wine with an evening meal , to be slightly hung over the next day and then have a day clear. Then I do it again. So, I probably drink at most three bottles of red wine per week.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> How many nights a week do you have dinner? "Most or all of a bottle of wine" times 7 dinners equals at least 6 bottles of wine. Unless "a day clear" means you refrain from drinking.(duh, i think i just figured that out)

How big are the bottles?
Do you mostly have dinner/wine alone?

I am not hear to criticize how much you drink. I could probably come up with a million other questions for you, but I am too tired right now. I ask you one more question. Has your drinking adversely affected your life in any way? In any way at all?

[(JD)]

Wondering why you fear ssri's would increase anxiety...I think the opposite.

Wondering how your friends feel being different on the meds...

IMHO you should cut back on the drinking... a glass of wine or maybe 2 at meal is actually healthy... and some bottles of wine only hold 4 1/2 glasses so that wouldn't be a huge cut. If you do this, it will still chill you out for the evening, but you might not have any hung over effect the next day...

[Myzen]

Hi Emwell,

Yes, I wasn't that clear in the original post. It's about three bottles a week. I used to do pubs with friends but nowadays life is quieter. I have dinner with my wife, who has one glass of wine. I used to drink a lot, which was the culture in Northern England, but I don't feel that need now.

The problem is more to do with depression/anxiety which is present at some level most of the time.

Your last question is a difficult one. I would have to say that over the years drinking has improved my life overall, definitely socially, but occasionally I have had some bad hangovers. I have talked with other people with anxiety disorders and they say that hangovers are a problem for them as well. I guess it's because we are extra sensitive to the chemicals.

I'm following Hamstergirl's advice and taking some alcohol free time. If there is an addiction problem kicking in, I should be able to feel it soon enough.

Good luck.

Myzen

[Myzen]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Wondering why you fear ssri's would increase anxiety...I think the opposite.

Wondering how your friends feel being different on the meds...

IMHO you should cut back on the drinking... a glass of wine or maybe 2 at meal is actually healthy... and some bottles of wine only hold 4 1/2 glasses so that wouldn't be a huge cut. If you do this, it will still chill you out for the evening, but you might not have any hung over effect the next day...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Hi SkyBdark,

Well, I think you have hit on my 'skeleton'. I'll own up, I am absolutely terrified of medication, to the point that I think I would endure almost anything rather than swallow the pills.

There you are, the truth's out.

Why is this? Well, my father was addicted to tranquilisers and I watched the process in detail. It was a nightmare. So that's reason 1.

Reason 2 is that I am afraid of the possible side effects. I am able to cope with the panic attacks that I get, using psychological techniques that I have learned, but I don't think I would want any more attacks than I get at the moment. I have read reports that SSRI's can trigger long term anxiety in some unfortunate individuals. I have always been unlucky, so I don't want to chance my arm if I can help it.

Reason 3 is that I have had two friends who went on to prozac, with increasing doses over time, and I just didn't recognise them any more. In the end they came off again, and returned to what I thought was their normal selves.

These are only my feelings though. I know that meds are really good for most people. It's just my own 'skeleton'.
It's irrational, but that's how feelings are.

I feel better for admitting it.

Good luck,

Myzen

[shakes]

Myzen,
It depends on the medication and the person. Not all SSRI's leave someone like a zombie in a body. Lots of people on this board have had great luck with Welbutrin, but it made me a completely different person. However, you said that your friends had the same thing happen with Prozac, but it made me a greater version of myself.
You will never know what will help you unless you try to take something. What do you have to lose? While your drinking might not be helping your problems I think you need to handle one thing at a time.
Please at least think about it.

Jessica

[Larry_Hoover]

Myzen, if alcohol (ethanol) was a new drug, and it was being considered for approval, it would not make it past the most preliminary of trials. The toxic and adverse effects are so well known, it's hard to find a part of the body that is not negatively affected.

Alcohol is culturally accepted, and it falls in with other things that "we've always used". What amazes me is that distillers and brewers are not required to publicly acknowledge all of the harm alcohol is associated with. When you see alcohol advertising, do you see battered spouses, children with PTSD, crushed vehicles, innocent victims of fires caused by inebriated smokers or those trying to cook a meal? Do you see listings of liver disease, bleeding disorders, diabetes, permanent brain damage?

I need not belabour the point, I hope. The fact that medications are statistically associated with certain adverse outcomes does not mean you'll get those effects. I can virtually guarantee what will happen to your body if you keep drinking.

I really do understand self-medication. I used to drink five bottles of wine, every night. I smoked enough marijuana for three lifetimes. Etc.

The thing is, those things don't help in the long term. They leave you worse off than what you were like going in.

There are many approaches you can use to treat your distress, and many of those are not prescription meds.

Alcohol can be adaptive. It can relieve stress, and reduce social anxiety. But, there comes a point when there is more negative than positive. That's when it becomes maladaptive.

Geez, I hope I don't sound preachy. I've had far greater success treating my own mental health issues with nutrients than I've ever had with prescribed drugs. That said, I do use those drugs, but only as little as I have to. And I don't have to use them all the time because of all the other things I do.

I'll shut up now.

Lar

[Myzen]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
There are many approaches you can use to treat your distress, and many of those are not prescription meds.

I've had far greater success treating my own mental health issues with nutrients than I've ever had with prescribed drugs. That said, I do use those drugs, but only as little as I have to. And I don't have to use them all the time because of all the other things I do. Lar

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Hi Larry,

I'm interested. What are the nutrients you mention? What else do you do? (if that's not too nosey a question).

I ride a mountain bike in my local woods, maybe 5 miles every couple of days. Also I get some Reiki healing once a month. My diet's not too good, but I do try to force down a bit if fruit when I can.

Up to now I've been able to swallow the panic attacks with breathing exercises that I've learned, and a 'face the fear' strategy I got from counselling. All in all it's not so bad.

Good luck

[hamstergirl]

Wellbutrin has made me a different person. It woke me up. I was sleeping 16 hours a day at one point and pumping a lot of caffeine into my body to try and stay alert. This, as my friend Doug would say, was not a good and loving thing, because I have osteoporosis and caffeine leaches calcium from the bones.

Wellbutrin has not turned me into a zombie. I say this as a person who values her higher mental faculties very much.

I receive far more personal satisfaction from writing on here than I ever did from drinking.

You might want to try some form of meditation to cope with the anxiety attacks. My T said that several of his other patients have done this with great success. It's a great way to focus the mind on something else, which at times even I have to do (ie medical tests). Medical affairs are one thing sure to send me into panic mode.

[Larry_Hoover]

Nosey? I doubt I'd have brought the subject up if I meant to keep it to myself.

I'm glad you've focussed on breathing to deal with panic attack. A panic attack is, at its root, poor breathing technique. Hyperventilation is habitual in those prone to panic attack, and upon being triggered, it is hyperventilation that creates the powerful physical feelings. For a full explanation, see:
http://www.panic-attacks.co.uk/panic...e_contents.htm

It's interesting to look at it from the medical side, respiratory alkalosis. The symptoms of that are those of panic attacks. See: http://www.chclibrary.org/micromed/00063580.html

The nutrients....oh boy. I opened a can of worms. &lt;grin&gt;

I could write a book (and one day I probably will). Really, you don't even have to have a poor diet to be malnourished. Every single person who is not taking vitamin and mineral supplements is malnourished. I can guarantee that.

So, anyway, you need to ensure a basic balance of nutrients in your body. If you haven't been taking vitamins, do start taking a one-a-day type formulation, but take it twice a day, with meals (at least at first). I'm trying not to descend into details at this point.

For specific treatment of anxiety, niacinamide (that's not niacin), which is also known as nicotinamide....it directly improves the function of GABA receptors, which is a calming thing. 500 mg, up to four times a day. Also, the amino acid taurine does similar. 500-1500 mg, no more than twice a day. The mineral magnesium is calming, and is even absorbed through the skin (that's why epsom salts baths are comforting). Use any magnesium supp you can find, except magnesium oxide (it's poorly absorbed). Some people get real sleepy or generally dopey from it, so best taken just before bed if that's the case. Start at 300 mg elemental magnesium. Some people also get a real calming effect from glutamine (NOT glutamate!!). Glutamic acid/glutamate is one amino acid. Glutamine is quite another, and it works to directly oppose glutamate. 500 mg, as needed.

I don't know how much information to throw your way, all in one go.....

For depression, especially in the UK, selenium supplements are critical. Local soils do not supply sufficient selenium, and deficiency is a direct cause of depression. You should take 200 micrograms/day.

Also, zinc at 30 mg/day. Because of the effects of alcohol, chromium at 200 mcg/day would be a good idea.

Also fish oil. Modern diets have been stripped of omega-3 fatty acids, while simultaneously supplying 100 times the historical intakes of omega-6. 5 grams per day of fish oil, with meals.

And antioxidants. Vitamin C, 2000 mg/day. Vitamin E, 800 IU/day. Vitamin D (I know you're not getting enough of that), a minimum of 2000 IU/day.

There are many other ideas....but our diets are grossly inadequate. It is not even possible to get the Recommended Daily Allowance of nutrients from diet, without grossly (three-fold) exceeding caloric intake limits. And even that means you'd be eating an unpalatable diet (you can only eat so much wheat germ).

Aaaaccckkkk! I oughta write that book.

Lar

[shakes]

When I was referring to Welbutrin I made sure to include the blurb about different meds working differently for different people. That was the whole point of my comment, that if one method does not work then try something else.
I am so glad that Welbutrin worked for you though.

Jessica

[ktp]

Jessica:

I had the exact same side effects from Wellbutrin. Now, I'm taking Prozac, as well, and it is absolutely the best! I can't recommend it enough but I agree with you, every person reacts to medication differently. That being said, there are lots of SSRI's out there that do their job and really help lots and lots of people, it's just a matter of finding the right one for you.

Take Care.
Kimberly.

[(JD)]

Well I certainly can understand your fear of medications. If you have someone who is knowledgeable, like a T, you could consider trying one and allowing the T to help regulate it and discuss how you feel on a day to day or week to week basis. That would assist in alleviating your fears of side effects that could become "out of hand" and also prevent any overdosing too. Others have mentioned Welbutrin, which is not even a regular ssri so you have at least 2 classes of meds you could try.

There are herbs that work great for anxiety: have you gone to your local health food store (assuming there is one.) they usually have pamphlets and even books to buy to self educate. I find valerian, and passion flower help me.

I do disagree with Larry about needing supplements for diet though. Trying to eat properly isn't enough though, he is right on that. We really have to become a label reader, and into some nutrition facts to make sure we do get the proper nutrients. I am against the pills because most of them don't even break down in the human body! Also, often they don't have other nutrients that are needed for them to work in the body. Food, on the other hand, has what you need altogether. I suggest a nutritionist, like at a local hospital, who will figure it all out for you. They are generally pretty "cheap" too lol something like $50 or less for 2 visits... and a wealth of info about what you need and worked around how you eat, when.

You fear not being able to handle medications... but really, you are mishandling self medication with over indulging in the wine. You just aren't as afraid of the consequences as with pills.... what do you think?

[Myzen]

You guys have been really helpful, and I mean that.

My alcohol consumption is down, and I'm getting into some vitamin supplements on Larry's advice. Valerian is good too, and I've used it before with some success, so I know it works.

The point about a nutritionist is well made. Back when I was earning good money I went to a nutritionist who had this thing she called 'superfood'. It was a cocktail of vitamins and stuff, but fresh, not in a tablet form. I was in bad shape, with a spastic colon, and she brought me back to normal.

The thing about the meds and the wine? It's the devil you know: simple as that. Maybe this is time for a change.

Good luck

Myzen

I agree about the supplements and food, Sky. If you eat correctly, you'll get everything you need. I make a smoothie each morning that is balanced and starts my day correctly. It takes some work and if you can find a nutritionist, that's the way to go. I was lucky enough to find a cookbook by Jane Brody years ago and that started years of research and trying out different foods. I am 61 and my health could not be better. I've alleviated my menopausal symptoms with food and herbs. (think soy, soy, soy and sweet potatoes, etc.) HOWEVER, I do take a calcium supplement with vitamin D because my family has a history of brittle bones. I smashed my ankle and during the surgery, the physician said he could not believe the shape my bones were in. I exercise regularly and lift weights. I could go on and on, but you get the message. We are what we eat and our bones reflect our dedication to exercise. pat