[sunrise]

It feels like T is pushing me away, and I feel really threatened by it. I hate this stuff. I am sure he has my best interests at heart, but our last session felt very distancing to me. Is this the kind of thing I am supposed to discuss with him? Or should I just chase those threatened and pushed away feelings into a corner of my brain and not acknowledge them? (When you know an unsettling thought or feeling is perhaps not "justified", should you just ignore it? I don't do CBT--a highly regarded form of therapy--but isn't that what CBT is? Willfully ignoring thoughts and feelings you think may be irrational?)

What happened was T talked to me about this form of therapy he is becoming more and more interested in, Lifespan Integration (LI). LI is a relatively new therapy that works by connecting ego states through time, and is used to treat trauma, among other things. He went to a workshop on it recently, but has had some training in it prior to this too. He described it to me, and parts sounded familiar. He said he has used elements of the therapy in his work frequently (and I have experienced some of these), but he is now wanting to do LI more formally too, with entire LI sessions using the LI protocol.

He wants to use LI for trauma work (he is a trauma specialist). He said it can be very healing, and is much faster than talk therapy, which can take years and have limited utility for trauma. We have talked about his trauma techniques before, and he has said much the same about EMDR. The quickness of EMDR is a big reason why he switched from using Psychodrama for trauma to EMDR. However, he says LI is much gentler than EMDR. It is equally direct, but doesn't have the potential to itself be traumatizing, which EMDR sometimes can. He commented that he doesn't know if one needs to do LI every time, or if you can mix and match LI and talk therapy sessions.

I think he wants me to do LI with him. He did ask me to work on my "timeline", which is a key, client-generated resource used in LI. I don't know that I need more trauma work, frankly. I like our current talk therapy. I thought we took care of my key "stuckness" by doing EMDR on certain traumas in my past. I didn't know I needed to do more trauma work. I like talking to T. I have anxiety that if I don't have more trauma maybe I don't need to see T anymore. Is this what he is trying to tell me? "Let's get with the program, Sunny, finish your trauma work, so you can get the hell out of my office." Is he seeing our sessions as not sufficiently productive or therapeutic? I have struggled with the thought that part of why I continue to see T is because I enjoy his company rather than just for therapy. Maybe he is thinking the same and doesn't want that to continue.

He said things about LI that were really disturbing to me. He said with LI, you don't need to spend so much time developing a relationship with the therapist. You can go right in and do the work, which doesn't foster a dependence on the therapist. The client learns to depend on themselves instead--to heal their younger ego states--and the healing of the therapy relationship is not so essential. This seemed to be a good thing, he was saying, because then you can do your healing quickly and not spend eternity on the T relationship. Blah blah blah. I'm sure I'm not reporting his words with complete accuracy but rather what I heard. It all made me feel like he finds developing therapeutic relationships with clients to be tedious, undesirable, overly time-consuming, a necessary evil, etc. He also used this word "dependent" which was very disturbing to me. Does he think I am dependent on him? Am I? I have felt securely attached to T, but I have never thought of myself as dependent. Does he see me as some leech who sucks on his blood to survive? Am I?

Is he trying to push me out the door? Is he uncomfortable with our relationship? Does he see it as pointless and he wishes we had never developed it?

With all this in mind, it is hard for me to even contemplate doing LI with him as, despite any possible merits of the technique, I am now seeing it as a way T is trying to distance himself from me.

My first feeling is to want to leave therapy. If he doesn't want me there, I don't want to be there either. For me, the relationship has been a key part of healing, and if T doesn't want the relationship anymore, why continue? It would be too painful to me for our therapy to be reduced to following LI protocols.

If I try to look at this unemotionally and rationally, I could see that LI might be interesting to try. It encompasses elements of ego state therapy, which I have loved. And I have often wanted to work on my teen-early adult years but felt that T didn't want to. I could perhaps use LI to work on this era, if he would let me.

This other feeling is that LI is "flavor of the month" for T. First psychodrama (before I knew him), then EMDR, now LI. Perhaps T is thinking, "sunny is always so willing and capable in therapy, I will use her as a guinea pig for this new therapy I am so keen on. I can experiment on her and see if this LI really helps. I am glad she is still around so I can test out these new techniques and ideas on her. Even though she really still shouldn't be here, at least I can get some use out of her."

We have gone back to having weekly sessions for the last month or so, after having been at every other week since January. Maybe T sees this as backsliding.

On my way out the door, T mentioned again to work on my timeline (this involves writing down one positive memory or image, in sequence, for each year of your life). I asked him if I did that, could I leave out a 20 year period? (I was kind of trying to joke that I could not recall any positive events from the 20 year period of my marriage.) He said, no, not unless I had another diagnosis I had been hiding from him. I'm sure he was just joking, but I hate the "diagnosis" word, and I did not think this was funny. It felt clinical and distancing to me. Like I am a patient and he is a clinician. Also, recently he has begun taking notes during our sessions, which he has never done before, and this feels clinical and distancing too.

I think I need to cancel our session next week. I need time to think about all this. The uncomfortable thing is, I just can't cancel therapy and not see T anymore (which is what my impulse is). I still have to see him outside of therapy as a coach. For example, I saw him yesterday in this role, and will again next week too.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by sunrise

It feels like T is pushing me away, and I feel really threatened by it. ....... Is this the kind of thing I am supposed to discuss with him? Or should I just chase those threatened and pushed away feelings into a corner of my brain and not acknowledge them? .......isn't that what CBT is? Willfully ignoring thoughts and feelings you think may be irrational?)

IMO you already know the answer to this Sunny - and is it true that CBT directs you to ignore thoughts and feelings? Or to recognize and understand them, and then not permit yourself to act on them compulsively? two very different things. I am NO kind of authority on this entire science but everywhere I hear that thoughts and feelings are not to be pushed away and ignored because there are consequences to doing so.

This other feeling is that LI is "flavor of the month" for T.

wow that was my first thought too.

It seems that your confidence in T's stability and your trust in him are severely shaken; i would think that this is certainly something you need to talk about with him and at length too. You have had such positive things to relate so far, I hope you won't just quit without going into it with him; his response can make a big difference in your decision; also, if he really is starting to go into "flavor of the month", you could wake him up a little and it might help his other clients not to have to go through the same thing...
good luck - this sounds like a hard one.

[Mouse_]

Cripes sunrise!!! I think his been rather inconsiderate in his choice of wording...the man sounds like his got a new toy and wants you to validate his new choice??? I'd go back to session and kick arse!!!

[darkrunner]

Hi Sunrise,
I'm sorry your T session made you feel so badly.
I have heard of LI and I know someone who used it and found it very helpful.

You said:

My first feeling is to want to leave therapy. If he doesn't want me there, I don't want to be there either.

I think it's good to recognize this feeling, but also to recognize the possibility that you are assuming he doesn't want you there.
From everything you've writeen about your T, he sounds like he cares very much about you and has enjoyed working with you. I really don't believe he doesn't want you there.
Sometimes when we've been hurt in the past, our first instinct is to 'run away' at the smallest indication that someone may be rejecting us.
I really don't think this is the case for your T.

You also said:

If I try to look at this unemotionally and rationally, I could see that LI might be interesting to try. It encompasses elements of ego state therapy, which I have loved. And I have often wanted to work on my teen-early adult years but felt that T didn't want to. I could perhaps use LI to work on this era, if he would let me

To me, this sounds like you do have an open-ness to trying LI, and I think that is a good thing. He said he didn't know if you could combine LI with regular talk therapy - he needs to find this out. You need to have all the information before you decide what YOU want to do. Don't forget, this is YOUR therapy and YOU are in control of what you want your therapy to be.

I want to say, I heard and want to validate your fear that he is trying to push you away. I would probably feel the same.
I really think you should be honest with your T about all of this - your confusion, your hurt, your fears, and your thoughts.
I know it won't be easy, but you have too many questions to be able to handle this on your own.

Look at all the questions you asked:

Is this the kind of thing I am supposed to discuss with him?
Or should I just chase those threatened and pushed away feelings into a corner of my brain and not acknowledge them?

When you know an unsettling thought or feeling is perhaps not "justified", should you just ignore it? I don't do CBT--a highly regarded form of therapy--but isn't that what CBT is?

Willfully ignoring thoughts and feelings you think may be irrational?

Is this what he is trying to tell me? "Let's get with the program, Sunny, finish your trauma work, so you can get the hell out of my office."

Is he seeing our sessions as not sufficiently productive or therapeutic?

Does he think I am dependent on him? Am I?

Does he see me as some leech who sucks on his blood to survive? Am I?

Is he trying to push me out the door?

Is he uncomfortable with our relationship?

Does he see it as pointless and he wishes we had never developed it?

For me, the relationship has been a key part of healing, and if T doesn't want the relationship anymore, why continue?

It sounds like you really aren't sure what he was thinking or what he intended by taking this new turn in therapy. Most of your questions can only be answered by T.
They are good and valid questions, and you deserve answers for them.

Take care, dearest Sunny......

[deliquesce]

i dont know how to answer your questions, sunny.

what i did do was to try and find out more about this type of therapy for you.

here is the link to the homepage of the person who created it: http://www.lifespanintegration.com/

i did a literature search on this type of therapy across every peer-reviewed psychology and psychiatry journal published since 2002 (when the therapy was created). it did not yield any results.

so i tried to do an author search, but peggy pace apparently hasn't published anything ever [sorry - eta: she has self published her book and taken it through 4 editions].

so i did an author search on the people she references as the "leading neuroscientists" on whom her research is based:
* danny siegal has published 7 peer reviewed articles which relate to neurobiology in his career. of these, only 3 have been cited in future works by authors other than himself. As a comparison, one of my current lecturers (who is by no means a leading author in the field) has published 21 peer-reviewed articles on neurobiology in the last 2 year alone. 11 of them have been cited by more recent articles, most of them in literature reviews.
* allan schore has published 12 peer reviewed articles which relate to neurobiology. his more recent work has tried to tie this to practical ideas in therapy, but none of these have been cited in future works other than himself. his earlier work which researched the link between the right hemisphere of the brain & trauma has been well received, however.
* louis cozolino has published 5 peer reviewed articles, but none of them are related to neurobiology.
* joseph ledouz has published prolifically (100+ articles in his career). he is one smart guy. interestingly, his suggestion for coping with fear is to "successfully re-engage with life", and offer psychiatric medication if required.

so i am kind of doubting her claims to have a therapy based on the latest research in neurobiology. what's more, her claim is specifically that this therapy changes your neural integration, but as far as i'm aware - no research has been done to validate this claim.

i will admit that i'm probably the biggest skeptic of them all . i am one of those trying clients who researches *everything* prior to doing as the doctor orders. but if you were saying that T wanted to do EMDR with you, or ego state processing, or something which has at least had one study conducted on it, i wouldn't be worried. but at the moment, it does seem a bit like he has found a new toy.

i do not think he is doing it to be malicious in any way. he probably really does think it is worth a try. just personally - i prefer to not hedge bets on things which havent been tested before. let someone else be the guinea pig, and you can join in when it's proven to be useful. (Eta again: if you were feeling hopeless with your current treatment, then i would totally be for this! it's just that you seemed content with how things were going, so i dont see a reason to change that).

((((((((((((((((((((((((sunny))))))))))))))))))))))

There is SO much in you post. Do I think you should bring ALL of this up to T? Absolutely, positively, yes.

Something at the end struck me...you talked about T talking about things in "clinical" terms. My T did that when the DID discussion started and wow, did it trigger me. I was hurt, angry, confused, you name it. It was like all of a sudden, this really human relationship had ended and a super clinical t/client relationship had taken it's place.

I can NOT ignore things like that. I will spiral and spiral. I need to talk to T about it. I think because some part of me knows that I am reading things wrong...but I need to be reassured, and T needs to know what my triggers are. That's a big part of healing, for me. Almost all of my healing has happened through the T relationship, and it's been through asking those scary questions (am I too dependent? do you want to get rid of me?) when they come up.

(((((((((((((((((((Sunny)))))))))))))))))) I'm so sorry your session was so hard. I hope you are able to find some peace.

Ooops - just wanted to add that from the outside looking in, I imagine that T told you about this new therapy because he DOES feel so close to you, and it is something he is excited about. I bet there are many patients he wouldn't have shared this with.

My T recently started a couples therapy training that he is SO gung ho about. I hate it, because to me, couples therapy = no individual therapy. We've actually talked about it a lot (and he's promised he'll do therapy with me no matter WHAT), and I call it "your stupid training" lol. I'm glad I told him how I feel, because we can talk openly about it. He's allowed to be excited about it, I'm allowed to feel resentful and irritated (because it takes him out of the office and makes me wonder if he's shifting his focus) and we can talk about it and laugh about it and still love each other.

Okay, NOW I'm done

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

You have had such positive things to relate so far, I hope you won't just quit without going into it with him; his response can make a big difference in your decision

Thanks, sittingatwatersedge. We do have a very positive, close relationship and I know that in my heart. I would not quit at this time, but I do strongly feel an urge to withdraw and create some distance. I did see him yesterday outside of therapy, and he sat next to me at our meeting. We interacted fine. I am a master at compartmentalization, though, so have not had trouble separating his roles. (He has sometimes commented that this is interesting, as he does not separate his multiple roles for me so much. He feels he is one person, while I divide him into 3. ) I may cancel the therapy session next week--doesn't mean forever. This would give me some additional time to process and also demonstrate to him that I am not overly dependent. I have been going every other week since January, except for the last few sessions, and I can go back to every other week and show I am not a needy leech. I'm also doing well now--another reason to go back to less frequent support.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by mouse_

cripes sunrise!!! I think his been rather inconsiderate in his choice of wording...the man sounds like his got a new toy and wants you to validate his new choice??? I'd go back to session and kick arse!!!

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Hey! Why doesn't this do what I tell it to??????

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by deliquesce

* joseph ledouz has published prolifically (100+ articles in his career). he is one smart guy. interestingly, his suggestion for coping with fear is to "successfully re-engage with life"

Notice the word "successfully".

[MissCharlotte]

Sunny,

I think you need to discuss this with T rather than push it into some corner. Somehow that doesn't feel very healthy. Could it be that T trusts you so much and values your relationship that he feels safe trying his new technique with you? Could it also be that he wants to do this new kind of therapy because he wants to be able to help more people faster? (Rather than avoid relationships..)

I'm sorry you are upset but it seems to me that these feelings that have come up are evidence of the need to continue your therapy. You have worked so hard and are not even through with the D yet, so I can't imagine T would be recommending the "end."

You have brought up this "fear of ending" before and you owe yourself some peace of mind.

Sigh. It's so hard.

((((((((((((Sunrise)))))))))))

[peaches100]

Sunrise,

Wow! You've brought up so many valid questions and concerns that I don't know where to start! I'll try to hone in on the parts of your post that stood out for me. If I'm totally off target, feel free to dismiss what I've said. I've been known to be wrong at times.

Is this the kind of thing I am supposed to discuss with him? Or should I just chase those threatened and pushed away feelings into a corner of my brain and not acknowledge them?

Does it help you to push away feelings? Would it stop you from feeling hurt and threatened? If the answer is "No," then I suggest you talk to t about it. My experience is that the more I try to stuff a significant emotion or concern, the more it nags at the corner of my mind -- and the more I try to analyze what my t meant by something she did, the more I ruminate and spiral down.

I have anxiety that if I don't have more trauma maybe I don't need to see T anymore. Is this what he is trying to tell me? "Let's get with the program, Sunny, finish your trauma work, so you can get the hell out of my office."

Could you possibly be projecting your own feelings onto your t? A part of you wonders if you are ready to quit therapy, so you are assuming t feels that way too? If t thought you had worked through your traumas and were ready to terminate, would he suggest a new form of trauma processing work? What I read what he's said, my impression is the opposite of yours: that t believes you have some additional trauma to work through, and he believes this form of processing may address that need.

I have struggled with the thought that part of why I continue to see T is because I enjoy his company rather than just for therapy. Maybe he is thinking the same and doesn't want that to continue.

More assuming. Can you think of anything t has actually said that indicates that he believes you come to therapy just because you "enjoy his company?" Or could this be more assumption/projection? (I don't mean to be unkind, I totally get why you feel bad!! But I'm trying to view this objectively. I know from my own experience that it can be so, SO hard to see things objectively when we are triggered emotionally.)

He said things about LI that were really disturbing to me. He said with LI, you don't need to spend so much time developing a relationship with the therapist. You can go right in and do the work, which doesn't foster a dependence on the therapist. The client learns to depend on themselves instead--to heal their younger ego states--and the healing of the therapy relationship is not so essential.

OK. I think these are important concerns you should definitely discuss further with your t. The t relationship IS important to most clients. If you feel that he's minimizing the importance of that, it's something to be talked through. Also, if you're ready to hear honest responses, why not come out and ask t: "Do you feel I've developed too much dependency on you and/or placed too much importance on our relationship? Is this why you want to do LI with me?" He may validate your own fears, or he may have a very different view/reason. You won't know unless you get brave and ask.

My first feeling is to want to leave therapy. If he doesn't want me there, I don't want to be there either. For me, the relationship has been a key part of healing, and if T doesn't want the relationship anymore, why continue?

Can you see how you've made your assumption into reality? You've decided that t does not want you there. Now you are reacting in a defensive way to protect yourself from the feelings of hurt/rejection: "If he doesn't want me there, I don't want to be there either." You are set to act upon an assumption that you have not checked out/verified with your t.

It would be too painful to me for our therapy to be reduced to following LI protocols.

I see this too as a valid concern. You obviously find the t relationship to be conducive to your healing. No wonder you resist a therapy technique that you believe would remove that necessary element (a definite possible "con" to LI processing)! It will be important for your t to know how you feel about this.

If I try to look at this unemotionally and rationally, I could see that LI might be interesting to try. It encompasses elements of ego state therapy, which I have loved. And I have often wanted to work on my teen-early adult years but felt that T didn't want to. I could perhaps use LI to work on this era, if he would let me.

OK. Now here's a possible "pro" for doing LI work. Perhaps after checking out your assumptions with t, you could also weigh the pros and cons of LI work, in trying to decide if it's right for you.

This other feeling is that LI is "flavor of the month" for T. First psychodrama (before I knew him), then EMDR, now LI. Perhaps T is thinking, "sunny is always so willing and capable in therapy, I will use her as a guinea pig for this new therapy I am so keen on. I can experiment on her and see if this LI really helps. I am glad she is still around so I can test out these new techniques and ideas on her. Even though she really still shouldn't be here, at least I can get some use out of her."

OK, I had to chuckle a bit here because I think that t's do tend to get excited about new processes, and particularly if they've just returned from a conference, forum, training. Your assumption that he'd like to use you as a guinea pig may or may not be accurate. But if it was, it would be important for you to ask yourself how you feel about being a guinea pig? Are you opposed to being one of the first persons to try out a new technique? If so, why? Would being a "guinea pig" be more palatable to you if you felt that the new technique had the possibility of helping you in addressing your issues?

We have gone back to having weekly sessions for the last month or so, after having been at every other week since January. Maybe T sees this as backsliding.

Maybe or maybe not. Ahhh, Sunrise! We are kindred spirits. I also am a "mind reader" extraordinaire! You most likely have a very analytical mind and just naturally try to figure things out. Unfortunately, even when we are able to put together a very believable analysis and think we understand a situation, once we "check it out" with our t, we can find out that the reality is much different. I've found out so many times that what I'd spent alot of time analyzing and figuring out was actually inaccurate once I came right out and asked my t about it. I chalk it up to having a really creative mind!

On my way out the door, T mentioned again to work on my timeline (this involves writing down one positive memory or image, in sequence, for each year of your life). I asked him if I did that, could I leave out a 20 year period? (I was kind of trying to joke that I could not recall any positive events from the 20 year period of my marriage.) He said, no, not unless I had another diagnosis I had been hiding from him. I'm sure he was just joking, but I hate the "diagnosis" word, and I did not think this was funny. It felt clinical and distancing to me. Like I am a patient and he is a clinician.

I actually wasn't sure what he meant by his comment. Taken in the context of discussing not being able to recall any positive experiences during a 20-year period, I guessed that his comment, "Not unless you have another diagnosis you have been hiding" to be a reference to DID (e.g., in other words, you have a 20-year gap in your memory that you can't account for). If that's the case, I think the joke was in poor taste. Regardless of what he meant, I can understand why you don't like the "diagnosis" word. It strikes me as sort of clinical and detached also. But most likely, he didn't mean it in a distancing way. However, because you already were feeling that he wanted to distance from you, I can understand how you would interpret his comment as distancing.

Also, recently he has begun taking notes during our sessions, which he has never done before, and this feels clinical and distancing too.

Another good issue to bring up.

I think I need to cancel our session next week. I need to think about all of this.

Have you canceled sessions before when you were upset in order to think about it? Did analyzing it on your own help you understand things more clearly? Or has it worked better in the past to go to t and present your questions/fears and listen to his explanation?

Sunrise, what I see about you is that you have a very intelligent, analytical, questioning mind. But I also see some signs of projection on your part, where you recognize your own feelings and then assume that t shares those same feelings. I also see a progression in your thinking like this:

T wants to try LI with me. . .t wants to distance from me. . .OK then, i don't want to be here either. . .I think I'll cancel.

Once we've accepted an assumption as truth, we embark on a whole chain reaction of thoughts/feelings/reactions based on that assumption. Usually, the assumption is based partly on truth: for example, the things your t said seemed to valid your assumption. But without checking out your assumption with your t and getting his feedback, you're only operating on partial information.

I hope you will decide not to cancel your session, but to go in and talk to t about your very important, very concerning questions and fears.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by Mouse_

Cripes sunrise!!! I think his been rather inconsiderate in his choice of wording...the man sounds like his got a new toy and wants you to validate his new choice??? I'd go back to session and kick arse!!!

I think I love you, mouse.

[sunrise]

deliquesce, thanks for all the info you looked up on LI. I have seen and read at the LI website. My T provided me with more detailed information in certain areas than is at the site.

My concern is not about the validity of LI therapy but about how I felt T was pushing me away with it and his comments about it being a therapy that didn't require the primacy of the therapeutic relationship, thank god. (No he didn't say the thank god part, of course, but that's what I heard as the subtext).

LI includes a good dose of ego state therapy, and I have found that helpful. T has also used a "count me up" year by year timeline to bring me back to present time when we went back, which is a somewhat similar to the LI timeline, but less image/memory based. So I know some of these techniques and that they are helpful to me. I don't need external validation on this. T has used EMDR with me in a creative way mixed with ego state therapy sometimes, and there is not real body of literature on this, yet it has been helpful to me. So I am open to "undocumented" therapy approaches. I don't want to read too much at the LI website because I got enough info on the technique from T, and because I don't want to get too scholarly/analytical in case we do LI together. I want to come in relatively virgin as I think that will be more therapeutic. I might have one question for him about the bihemispheric processing that is the key feature of EMDR and how he thinks that missing feature is accommodated for in LI. It is supposed to be so central in freeing the stuck trauma in EMDR. How could LI act so quickly if it doesn't do that too?

I know my attitude probably doesn't seem very sound to a careful skeptic, deliquesce, but I would feel differently if I was going to take a drug or something. I research pharmaceuticals extensively.

Plus, some of the therapies that have been documented as most broadly efficacious have not been a good fit for me at (CBT). Although with this latest episode of therapy, maybe I need it!

at the moment, it does seem a bit like he has found a new toy.

Yeah, and he's saying, "sunny, come play with me." I don't know how I feel about that.

i do not think he is doing it to be malicious in any way. he probably really does think it is worth a try.

I do agree with that.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by treehouse

Something at the end struck me...you talked about T talking about things in "clinical" terms. My T did that when the DID discussion started and wow, did it trigger me. I was hurt, angry, confused, you name it. It was like all of a sudden, this really human relationship had ended and a super clinical t/client relationship had taken it's place.

That's totally it, treehouse. It is very distancing, isn't it? It's like if suddenly I started calling T, "Mr. ____" instead of by his first name. Similarly, starting to use clinical lingo, talk about diagnoses, take notes during session--all that is so medical. I am not ill, so don't go all clinical on me. Acting clinical sends the message to me, "I think you are ill. I think there is something wrong with you. I think you are not healthy. I will try to fix you." That is a very distancing message. I mean, c'mon, we're sunny and T. We've known each other for 2.5 years. We're human! We've laughed together, cried together, man! Don't act like some clinician.

I think because some part of me knows that I am reading things wrong...but I need to be reassured

Yes, there is a part of me that knows I am reading this wrong.

I imagine that T told you about this new therapy because he DOES feel so close to you, and it is something he is excited about.

Yes, I agree. I would have liked to be able to share his excitement but I got too bogged down in its perceived ramifications on me (he doesn't want the therapeutic relationship to be so central in therapy, therefore he wants to withdraw from our closeness).

I think I am having a lot of what they call "negative transference" right now because of my marriage. My H was always withdrawing from me, refusing to engage emotionally, distancing himself, holding me at arm's length, even though we were husband and wife. It was very, very hurtful. There is only so many times one can force oneself to go to the empty well to drink. This feels the same. T withdrawing from our relationship. I am so sick of that with my H that my reaction is, "hey, I don't need you either, buddy." It also makes me feel defective.

I sent T an email to cancel my appointment next week. Something came up at work and I could not get time off during the day after all, which is when I was scheduled. I can't say I was that sorry, and it took the responsibility for canceling out of my hands. I had to cancel, because my boss said I had to be at work.

[Brightheart]

Sometimes my mind gets all worked up and creates all of these scenarios of potential terrible things that might happen. Why is he saying that? What does that really mean? And then of course I answer all of these questions in my head with the worst possible scenario. Maybe you're reading too much into it? I think it's even harder in therapy because it isn't always as easy to ask what T's motivations are. Maybe the best way would be to just ask him about it.

I hope you are able to clear things up with your T soon and that you get the reassurance you need.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by MissCharlotte

Could it be that T trusts you so much and values your relationship that he feels safe trying his new technique with you?

I don't know. He has said he has done elements of it before, for several years, so it's not all new. In response to something I said at our session, he said, "haven't I told you about _____?" (a recent LI workshop). The way he said it made me think he had told other clients about this. (What, I haven't told you about this? It seems like I've told every Tom, Rick, & Harry client about this already--how could I have missed you?) However, I do think I have ready capacity to do this therapy and maybe that might be why he would want to try it out on me; I think it would be too "out there" for some clients. I know when I pilot curriculum at work, the very first pilot group is the most able teachers. You work out the kinks with them, and then move to a bigger group with more diverse abilities and classroom challenges.

Could it also be that he wants to do this new kind of therapy because he wants to be able to help more people faster? (Rather than avoid relationships..)

Yes, MissC, I think he wants to help people faster. He has told me before he doesn't like to see people suffer unnecessarily and he knows that emotional pain borne of trauma can be agony. That's why he likes EMDR so much, because he says with that technique he can really speed up trauma work so much, compared to what might be years of talk therapy, and he likes to give people relief and healing. I don't think he wants to avoid relationships, but from the way he talked, they are secondary to him, whereas relieving trauma seems to be first. He seems to have placed value on those 2 things in therapy, and he has placed a higher priority on healing trauma. I feel like hey, I'm a player here too, and it's my therapy and I value our relationship more, so that's something I am not willing to give up, trauma be damned. At our very first session, he gave me a speech about quick and healing therapies, and at the same time he said "I don't do longterm therapy," which he defined as greater than 3 years. He told me that up front, and here I am, nearing the end of my 3 years, and he whips out this new, fast technique. Maybe he is just trying to get under the 3-yr wire with me. I wonder what happens after 3 years? Does one of us turn into a pumpkin?

The truth is, I feel very disillusioned by our session. It's my own fault. I thought T and I had a really special relationship. But somehow this experience has really made me feel like "one of the pack."

You have worked so hard and are not even through with the D yet

That's another thing about this that's hard for me. I am still really occupied with the D. I would find it hard to begin (or return to) work in therapy on my childhood or teen years when I am still enmeshed in the D. We use a lot of our session time to debrief from what's happening in the D, and that has a lot of value to me. T has a lot of insights and has been very supportive. I feel like I need to finish up the D before beginning on a new venture into my timeline (integration of ego states across the lifespan). Also, I like having multiple ego states. Why do I have to integrate them? I feel fairly integrated. I don't have DID. And T has already taught me to comfort child ego states that need that. So I feel like some of what he described in LI is work we've done. And that makes me feel like he's forgotten or is minimizing my past experiences and accomplishments in therapy. He can't even remember what we've done together. Things that were really significant to me. Another question I have is about the lifespan ego states. What about ego states that are not younger versions of myself? Are they accommodated for in LI? If we start doing teen work, I know my male is going to be there too. And he can get very defensive if he thinks someone is trying to "eliminate" him, which is what "integration" sounds like to him.

I just remembered something. At the session before the LI one, I got very frustrated at more grief coming up for me about something I felt I should have been over with by now. T kept encouraging me to let out my sadness, but I was impatient. We talked about this sorrow and I was sobbing at one point. And then I got kind of angry at him and said, "why are we evening doing this? why are we even talking about this?" That, to me, sounds like a client who is frustrated with talk therapy and wants to be done with grieving and wants to move on. And voila, next session, her T brings her a new technique that has promise for getting her through this long, long grieving phase much faster, and he tells her it is gentle and can really help. He offers her this, because wasn't she really asking for something besides "talking" at their last meeting? Wasn't she?

Thank you, MissC.

And thank you, PC, for letting me process by writing these reeeeeally long posts.

[MissCharlotte]

I thought T and I had a really special relationship.

Fear not Sunny. From everything I've read here for the past few years, I know you and your T have a special relationship!

[sunrise]

Peaches, thanks for your many, thoughtful comments. Lots of food for thought. (And a kindred spirit who writes long posts!)

Originally Posted by peaches100

What I read what he's said, my impression is the opposite of yours: that t believes you have some additional trauma to work through, and he believes this form of processing may address that need.

I know. It's kind of bothersome. I didn't know I had more trauma work to do. I thought I was doing pretty well. I do need to talk to T about that. Maybe he sees me as worse off than I do myself.

Can you think of anything t has actually said that indicates that he believes you come to therapy just because you "enjoy his company?"

Well, yes. He has said before, "we should actually do some therapy today." Also, we have some shared interests in one of his professional areas of focus so we sometimes talk about that, which is not really doing therapy, and I think we both benefit. It's hard sometimes to separate out what is what. In a way, it's all therapeutic, because it makes me feel better to be with him. But I struggle with that. So maybe I should be glad he thinks I need to do trauma work, because then I wouldn't have to feel guilty about being there just because I like him.

The t relationship IS important to most clients. If you feel that he's minimizing the importance of that, it's something to be talked through. Also, if you're ready to hear honest responses, why not come out and ask t: "Do you feel I've developed too much dependency on you and/or placed too much importance on our relationship? You obviously find the t relationship to be conducive to your healing. No wonder you resist a therapy technique that you believe would remove that necessary element (a definite possible "con" to LI processing)!

To me, this is the number one thing I want to talk with him about. It's at the center of my anxiety about our talk last time. I could not wholeheartedly do LI until we had discussed this.

it would be important for you to ask yourself how you feel about being a guinea pig? Are you opposed to being one of the first persons to try out a new technique?

It's not the being first part that I don't like, but two concerns. First, do I need to do more trauma work? If I need to, then fine, but could T just using be me as a pilot subject for this, to help develop his own skills, test the technique, etc., when I don't really need this? If he thinks I need to do more trauma work, why haven't we been doing EMDR? Second, I don't want to lose our relationship by doing this technique which seems to minimize that. Do I have to give up the T relationship, as I know it, to do LI? On the LI website, the table of contents for the LI book is given, and some of the chapters are how to troubleshoot problems that arise in LI, for example, "when the client talks too much," or "when the therapist talks too much." I like T and I to talk! I have to give up our high degree of verbalizing to do LI? Do I just sit there silently on the couch and process? While T is over at his desk eating a turkey sandwich and reading his email? To what degree is the interactivity minimized?

Taken in the context of discussing not being able to recall any positive experiences during a 20-year period, I guessed that his comment, "Not unless you have another diagnosis you have been hiding" to be a reference to DID (e.g., in other words, you have a 20-year gap in your memory that you can't account for). If that's the case, I think the joke was in poor taste.

Yes, he didn't get my joke at all about the 20 year period being my marriage. His response fell flat with me. I am not DID. But that's OK. We can't always be funny, if that was his intent.

Have you canceled sessions before when you were upset in order to think about it? Did analyzing it on your own help you understand things more clearly?

I have never canceled a session with T unless it was for sickness or scheduling, so this is a new response for me. Yes, it does help me to understand things more clearly when I have time to process. Usually a week is enough time. But I have had to cancel this appointment anyway due to scheduling, and I don't have another one on the books, so I will get my extra time.

t wants to distance from me. . .

Yes, that is part of my assumption, but it's more than that. It's not just that he wants to distance, but that our relationship, and therapy relationships in general, appear not to mean that much to him, whereas to me the relationship means a lot. It's like he wants to sell the relationships down the river. What is more important to him is fast healing, and he is willing to put the relationships on the sidelines to do that. That hurts. I don't want to sideline our relationship. I want us to continue to be close. This is what needs discussing between us so he can clarify what he said and I can perhaps get reassurance or at least have an accurate understanding.

In the meantime, I need to focus on getting through my D, and this is a distraction to me. Maybe I need to talk about the D in therapy, and now I have this other thing.

[imapatient]

Sunrise, my first thought is a question: You're terminating with him fairly soon anyways, aren't you? You had a planned end date right from the beginning and the end is near. True?

IF so, then it sounds like he's trying to help as much as possible in the time left, and he's found or decided upon a new approach to expedite things for you. The stuff about not continuing talk therapy with so long with a T would give way to knowing that the horizon of talk therapy/etc. will be less productive than LI.

For some of the other stuff--notes, diagnoses, etc....they sound like material to prepare for another T to have when/if you switch. Shorthand explanations. And just to be in the record in general as he’s switching his record-keeping habits? It sounds like he’s really moving into a new school of thought.

IF not the end-date scenario I recall, are there other reasons that he thinks you might end things sooner rather than later? Once D is complete? Maybe he's picking up vibes from you that you want to move on, hence he's reacting. Or maybe he really merely does have a commitment

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by imapatient

You're terminating with him fairly soon anyways, aren't you? You had a planned end date right from the beginning and the end is near. True?

No, not really true. We have never discussed this. All I know is that on the very first day of therapy, 2.5 years ago, he told me he doesn't do longterm therapy, which he said was more than 3 years. We haven't mentioned this since, and I doubt he even knows when my first day with him was. He's not much of a recordkeeper. However, I would expect him to want to terminate when he felt the time is right, based on my mental health and strength. Maybe he is feeling I am ready. I don't know.

My most reassuring thought is that bringing up LI to me was somehow related to my rather desperate wail to him the week before of, "why are we evening doing this? why are we talking about this?" and he wants to provide something more efficacious than talk therapy. But if so, then why hasn't he suggested we do more EMDR? EMDR was not traumatizing for me at all. I liked it.

For some of the other stuff--notes, diagnoses, etc....they sound like material to prepare for another T to have when/if you switch. Shorthand explanations.

That never occurred to me.

IF not the end-date scenario I recall, are there other reasons that he thinks you might end things sooner rather than later? Once D is complete?

Maybe he thinks we might end soon because he thinks I am doing fine. (I am doing quite fine.) But that seems at odds with his suggestion that I do LI, because that seems to suggest he thinks I need to do more trauma work. On the other hand, LI is also used to integrate ego states, and maybe he thinks mine are a bit too "flapping in the wind" and need to be drawn closer. Maybe he does see the end of the D as the end of my therapy. But I asked him that once, and he said no, that he looked forward to exploring other areas with me. In a way, the D has held back my therapy because it's kept me fixated on this issue.

LOL, I keep writing variations on "maybe he thinks," "maybe he sees," "this suggests he thinks." There's only so far I can go with that and the next step is to talk to him.

[sunrise]

I am going to try to be realistic and throw out my best interpretation of what's going on:

"Sunny's T is really excited about a new technique called LI. He shared this with her because they are close and he knew she would be interested. He also thinks she could benefit from this type of therapy and do really well with it, because he knows she has PTSD and they have successfully done ego state therapy together. So he knows she can do this therapy. He tried it himself at his workshop, thought it was really cool, shared this with her, and it did indeed sound intriguing to sunny. Because of his camaraderie with sunny and their shared interests, he occasionally slips into conversation with her almost as a peer rather than a client. And so he said some things to her he might say to someone who is not a client who has bonded to him so deeply: that a plus of LI is that it doesn't require the therapeutic relationship, that what is more important is the client relationship with self, the T is in the background, and so this technique does not foster undesirable dependence on the therapist. These are words he might share with a colleague, who can appreciate the effort and drain of trying to connect with client after client day after day, but probably not best to share with a client who values that connection so much. Oops."

[deliquesce]

excellent interpretation, sunny! i think you may be spot on with it, apart from this bit: "that a plus of LI is that it doesn't require the therapeutic relationship, that what is more important is the client relationship with self, the T is in the background this technique does not foster undesirable dependence on the therapist. These are words he might share with a colleague, who can appreciate the effort and drain of trying to connect with client after client day after day"...

i don't think your T finds you draining, or probably most of his clients draining (there may be a few, however - most Ts get 'em). i am wondering if he really did use the phrase 'undesirable dependence'.

yknow, for someone like me, who is so scared to open up to someone, something like what your T is describing sounds great! like - give me the techniques, and i will practice at home by myself. it took me years to get to the point where i could disclose stuff to pdoc. and then even more years to disclose a little bit more. i am finding it really difficult with my new T to trust him, and i know it'll just take time, but gosh - it feels like i'm wasting money and hours in the meantime - just waiting until i've sussed out that he's ok.

so i could see why it would get a lot of Ts excited. if clients were given more control, you could speed things up a bit. not because you want to get rid of them, but because it'll help them achieve their goals faster. and, because it teaches them to rely on themselves, these are skills they can take with them even beyond therapy.

i can totally understand why it would have hurt to hear that, though. even though i don't trust new-T yet, it still hurt when he said to do my work by myself. like, i wasn't good enough for his personal attention. i would be pretty devastated if pdoc said something like that to me, even though i could intellectually appreciate why he would say it.

and i'm someone who's scared of being dependent! so i would imagine it'd be even more difficult for you, who values the relationship so constantly (i vary between 100% love and 100% fear of it - i am not saying that you think it's ok to be 'dependent').

p.s. i'm sorry about my earlier post. i'm not discouraging you from trying LI. i think your considering LI is a wise decision, especially because you've found similar techniques helpful in the past. i think i just got a bit upset myself by my interpretation of your interpretation (ha!) and wanted to poo all over T's new toy so that he would go back to being regular, reliable T who is not rejecting you under any possible interpretation.

[chaotic13]

Sunrise,
Your last interpretation sounds the most likely. The LI technique sound interesting. But, it just doesn't sound like something that would match well with your Ts style. IDK, I guess it doesn't seem to match well with his approach to treating you.

IDK, I think I kind of do this too in my own area. You go to a professional conference. Hear something new. Think it really has potential and so you delve into it. You want to experiment and practice and test it out to see how it might fit into your overall practice philosophy. Often the people you test it out on are those whom it can benefit but also are those who can help you refine it. They are people who handle seeing not so sure of what you are doing.

I think the reason he mentioned this to you is BECAUSE of your relationship not because he want to fast track you discharge. I think it may be important to tell him how you feel about him and the LI technique. Maybe he needs to know..."hey, this technique seems to minimize what I think has been most help--the relationship."

I once had a colleague who was a fabulous lecturer.I used to love to just slide into the back of his classes and just listen to his stories, metaphors, etc. But lecturing is out of fashion these days. Considered traditional teaching, not collaborative enough, kids today don't learn well this way anymore, you need to get student active. This colleague had been teaching for 30 years and was driving himself nuts trying to learn how to use all these techno gadgets to upgrade his teaching.

One day while sitting in his office I said to him, "Why are you trying to change?" "Look at your student evals? Look at the things your students have gone on to accomplish, THEIR GETTING IT! Your a lecturer, you are REALLY good at it, your students are learning.

If this technique doesn't seem to fit with the therapuetic relationship you and your T have, maybe you need to tell him that.

[searchingmysoul]

(((((((((Sunrise)))))))))

I know I am coming in on this late, but I just wanted to offer you a hug.