abandonment vs rejection

Yikes, deli - feel better, that does not sound fun!

Blue, I didn't have these feelings from the beginning, or at least I wasn't aware of them - not until T went on vacation, actually - I remember that it occurred to me right before my first session back, and I couldn't wait to tell T! And after I told T, I felt safe - that was the first session I cried in!

ETA: But I cried for another reason, not because of that.

OK- Now I remember that. I think our t's were on vacation at the same time and we had the same "reunion" day. Am I remembering correctly?

I remember when you cried with her, it was major!

I asked b/c I dont feel that way towards ftt...at least not yet.....and it took me a good 8 or 9 mos to feel attached to dt. That is a long time. I remember I didnt like her But I thought she understood me so I stayed. Whatever.....

I think a person can be abandoned as an adult, well at least i feel i've been abandoned by 2 very good friends as an adult. They 'abandoned' me because they literally disappeared with no contact or care despite years of loyalty and friendship. There was no vicious rejection or bust up about how much they hated me or any reason behind it all(!), they simply were there one day and not the next. I think to expand on my previous post it is a bit like the difference between hate and apathy, when a person rejects someone at least they care enough to be horrid but when a person abandons someone that person becomes obsolete, meaningless and almost ceases to exist. Sometimes if i worry someone i care about is going to walk away from me i'll try to hurt them so that they reject me, because that is easier to deal with. At least if they hate me they feel something for me, i'm still in their psyche, i'm still important to them (in some twisted way).
Words to explain words causes limitation don't you think?!

This is basically what I'm feeling towards my T. I like him. He's a nice guy. And I enjoy being in his company. I am comfortable with him like that, and feel that we kinda look at things the same way. Having an outside person to talk to about issues is refreshing. And I feel better afterwards. But I can feel myself getting attached to him. I know that once I do I will take things personally. My feelings will get hurt. And I know it won't be on purpose. But I get that way. And I know that this is a discussion I need to have with him ahead of time. Otherwise he'll probably be wondering what the hell is the matter with her?? LOL

This is a great convo to have with him. It is these kinds of feelings and discussing them with t that have lead me into deeper places. And he sounds like a safe t to have this conversation with. I would definitely tell him about your fears of becoming attached. It might sound strange, but if I had a male t, the transference would be out of control for me. I dont think I could handle my feelings and Id have to have a pretty tolerant and understanding t. As far as ftt is concerned, I dont have these attached feelings. And somehow, I think there is a reason for it that I dont yet know. I keep my distance? But I feel safe. I am holding back? But Im delving into things. Maybe Im over thinking the relationship. But if it were a male t, Id be attached from the very first nice thing he said to me. There is something to be looked at there, not sure what.

What is transference? I don't understand what that means.

Hmmm.... do i need to start a new thread with this question???

hey beautiful people . sorry i haven't come back to this thread earlier. i want to reply to everyone, but i know i just dont have the concentration span for that right now, so forgive me for being selective!! i managed to keep down some dinner today (WOOT!!!) but given that it's the first proper meal since last week, go easy on my ramblingness, alrite?

interesting post, bluemoon!! sorry i can't respond to the whole of it, but i think i agree with a lot of what you said. i think most of my problems probably started around age 2 (at least, that is the earliest i can recall) but my best guess is that mum was a good mum before then. she did look after me. so did dad. they are both good people. pdoc agrees - he said something about how he thinks mum must've done all the right things when i was very, very young because i dont have the 'typical' personality fragmentation that some other ppl who have experienced similar traumas later on grapple with.

i have said elsewhere that i'm not big on delving into childhood stuff, doing inner child work etc. so i'll relate your questions back to the here and now . as i see it, i'm a very social person. i am someone who craves social contact, almost in a way that other ppl do not. i'm the person who talks to randoms at the bus stop, makes friends with everyone at a party, is the 'popular' girl in class that everyone wants to be friends with etc. i am good with talking to strangers and 'making' them like me. but therein lies the problem - i always fear that i'm somehow manipulating ppl, that it's because of some sort of social skill that i have (not true likeable qualities) that wins me all these friends/acquaintances. i dont have many (any) really deep friendships with anyone. i hold myself back from those for fear that i'll be 'found out'. i dont think anyone really knows me, apart from pdoc. i guess that's why the fear of rejection is strongest with him - because he has had the most opportunity to know me enough to actually reject me.

why fear rejection? because i want to be liked and accepted and belong somewhere. belong in a meaningful way. it is not 'abandonment' in that if i am rejected i will fall apart and no longer function. i can still look after myself, i can still study, i can still have a successful career etc. i will still have teachers who adore me, and colleagues who seek me out to talk to, and i will still have my usual routine of small talk when i get my coffee, collect the paper, go to the chemist, bank, hairdresser etc. but in terms of belonging? that's what i crave above all, and that's why i'm scared of rejection. being vulnerable and ppl being repulsed... i guess i just crave emotional intimacy. and the belief is that i, as a person, am not enough to sustain something like that - i need acts and accomplishments to keep drawing ppl towards me. pdoc doesn't even allow me to for my sessions (he just takes the minimal medicare rebate), so of course i'm terrified that i'm not doing 'enough'. he points out that he is a doctor, a professional, so he will not abandon me - but i dont care about that. i can find another person to write prescriptions for me easily. i know enough about meds now to know what i require and self manage those, so i would only need intermittent sessions for fine tuning & review. the fear is that he will continue to see me, but hate me at the same time. i dont know if that makes any sense.

i'm delighted you are bringing this up here, ((((blossom))))!!! i think they are important questions to raise .

i'm not sure i agree completely. i dont think you can abandon a healthy adult, but given that (as therapists) we would be dealing with ppl for whom we are a sole lifeline, i think there is a very real sense in which we can abandon our clients. it's an interesting point of view, though!! i'm actually really curious about how it translates into professional ethics, but that's an area i've done very little study in.

it took me 2 years to finally feel ok with pdoc, although i respected him professionally from the start. it took me 2 years to finally realise with old-T that there was never going to be any attachment, and that (like you), i had stayed out of some belief in his professional capability and attendant authority. aah, would love to feel attached after 8 months!!! i think i am doing a good job with Austin-T but he is very unorthodox (and sometimes that makes me scared).

wow, abby!! it's so bizarre - this post is SO spot on for me, with the only twist being that i prefer apathy to active rejection. i wonder why there's that difference between us.

oh gosh. transference (as it's used here on PC and also in psychologist talk) can mean so many different things it's difficult to define. i think if you do a search in this section of PC you will get the best sort of overview of the way different ppl use it. i'm not saying "do a search" to fob you off or anything, but just because i feel inadequate to explain the breadth right now. i hope someone else can come along and help you out? .

Transference = transferring reactions from the past into the present -- usually reactions that you had to parents onto someone who, in your mind, takes over that significance in your present life.

so is it a transitory or incidental thing? or once it happens with someone in particular is it a constant thing?

I'd say it could be any of those! Probably would begin to be longer-lasting with someone with whom you were in close contact with for a period of time, like a T.

There is so much I could respond to Deli, so I am going to pick and choose....and this one (below) is a BIGGIE. I was JUST PMing with someone (...and you know who you are!LOL!) about this exact thing. I think it is good to post about this here...since you are touching on this subject.

((((Deli)))) DO feel better soon, dear one.....that kind of thing is terrible....but glad you could come on for a little bit....

I get it....and I know what you mean by that. I had 2 mother-substitues and if I didnt have my grandmother and nurse that took care of me, Id be in worse condition. At least that's what dt thought.

OK, Deli dear. I am the EXACT same way. And its funny, I didnt know this about you. I imagined you to be more of an inward type of person than an outward type. BUT I have had a feeling since I came here and read your posts that I relate very very much and see a lot of similarites between us. At this social thing and the reasons behind it may be something I picked up. Whatever. I am also an extremely social person, I do the same, chat my way around Starbucks, make friends, have random crushes on men in Starbucks that I talk to (Im married, nothing comes of this...dont anybody out there freak out), I am pretty good at getting other people to "like me". When I was younger (now, youre not going to kick my ***** for saying this younger/older thing...are you? )I was terrified of being found out for the crazy I was. Id be rejected if they REALLY knew...and then Id feel the BIG TERROR....abandonment. As I got older, I very slowly began letting myself out of the bag. It was with tons of therapy for my feelings of worthlessness for who I actually, truthfully was. If they knew the truth, they go hang out with more normals. Not me. I felt I was SO different than everybody else. It was a big thing for me this feeling that I was SO different than everybody else. Until I realized I wasnt so different. It took a long time, putting my toes in the water, testing people, and little by very little, allowing them to see myself. It is even difficult to discern what IS myself because I was so used to having that compulsively social persona. Who was the real Moon? I let myself be myself and began getting more selective about who I talked to. This took a long time. I LOVED being the Belle of the Ball. I seek out now people who I imagine to be more like myself, as opposed to wanting to be everybody's friend. Loved by all. But there's more......(see below )

Oh, boy does this ALL make HUGE sense. About feeling rejected and not abandoned. I also craved being liked and accepted. I still do, but it isnt the craving I had. I still want it though. If I am rejected and then feel the childhood abandonment, it doesnt turn into the kind of falling apart that you described. It can be a sense of anger toward that person. And that is it. I am angry at him/her because of this (no matter how minor) rejection b/c it brings up HUGE feelings of childhood abandonment. If I did not have these abandonment issues, I think rejection would not be painful, or AS painful, it would just be maybe, disappointment, some hurt...but it certainly wouldnt have the energy behind it that does. I dont fall apart, but I will overreact to a snide remark (rejection....I have been abandoned) by being maybe sarcastic (if I get sarcastic, its a sure bet abandonment is behind it). Someone gossiping about me....rejection...abandonment. I say bad things then about them when, in fact, Im hurt and the progressiion from rejection to deeper feelings of childhood abandonment is the driving force behind my behavior.

I was PMing with somebody about my need to "soothe" nasty people. What is in it for me to do that kind of soothing? Why must *I* be the one to turn nastiness into niceness. And have that person who said something nasty feel positively toward me? They are nasty and mean....but I better make sure they wont reject me....and then I might feel abandoned. Even if I wasnt in the first place. I have a pattern of befriending the meanies and making them nice. Or at least trying. Until I get stabbed in the back...or more truthfully, shot in the face. Ive had TERRIBLE experiences befriending the wrong people. But I keep trying. I have eased off it somewhat because I am aware of my behavior. It is actually theraputic for me to be more reserved than I naturally would be. With certain people. And to be aware of boundries in that way.

As far as pdoc is concerned, and you can kick my butt for being wrong, but Im putting this in terms of me (LOL!) that maybe pdoc sees the REAL Deli, not the public persona. The public persona Deli knows is not the real Deli, so how much can it really hurt or feel like rejectoion/abandonment if they didnt know you anyway? They didnt know you, so they arent rejecting Deli. BUT pdoc knows the real Deli, as much as you allow him to, and rejection from him would be truly and deeply painful. It would be abandonment. Unbearable pain. And that is what I SO relate to. The unbearable pain of childhood abandonment, relived.

This is on another subject. Do you mean HEALTHY adult? A healthy adult, I guess not, but I dont know too many of those . For clients, the (above stated) abandonment issues seem to make it very possible to abandon and adult who carries childhood pain.

I completely get this. I had no intention of trusting dt with much. But after 8 mos my food issue brought up a lot of other bpd issues she helped me with and b/c I needed her, I got more attached then. I respected the things she said, the way she saw me and how professional she seemed. And now, leaving her, I cant even imagine or wrap my mind around leaving her. Still. It is somehow related to abandonment. But not sure how.
But I can imagine that an unorthodox t would make me feel a bit scared/unsafe, like who is minding the store? Not a mature enough parent kind of thing, not matter how much I liked him. Can he really take care of me? But thats just moi.....hope I didnt ramble on too much...

PS- Im not correcting typos today ....I gotta go make diinner

BlueMoon, if you ever find out why this happens to you, please let me know. You know I'd be the same way. I overreact when someone is nice to me. My Ts commented on that, but I forgot what they said it meant. My first T said I sexualize feelings; does that apply? I know I told you that I would be afraid to see a male T. It's hard enough to control the feelings with a female; I just feel TOO MUCH for my Ts.

This is a really good thread: I'm just reading it now, and see that a lot applies to me too.

Abandonment is something I would connect with a feeling of being vulnerable with someone. You find yourself in a vulnerable state with someone and then they leave you "high and dry" to deal with it on your own. Kind of like when a client has a strong transference reaction to their therapist and is sent away for it...without having properly dealt with it.

Rejection is more personal, I think. There's something about me that I want to give, but they don't want to receive. Very painful.

OMG! @_@ This describes me perfectly as well. My H is constantly pointing out to me how much people like me, that I'm everyone's favorite, etc..and I am just thinking, well, yeah, but I MADE them like me. I don't know why I believe that I have that power, but I DO believe it. Like everyone liking me just proves that I get an "A" in social skills, not that there is anything about me that is actually worth LIKING.

I will say that it IS slowly, slowly changing. I actually do have some very very close friends who really truly *know* me and they still like me. And it's easier for me to be open with people (rather than just fun and chatty) now that I've been in therapy for a while. And it feels really good actually. Now when people like me, I feel more like they like ME. (if that makes any sense)

As for rejection/abandonment...for me, rejection feels like...if I just met someone and they didn't like something about me and left, that would feel like rejection. If someone I have a relationship with leaves me, that feels like abandonment. My best friend from high school (thought she was my soul mate!) decided during our junior year in college that we wouldn't be friends anymore, and she wrote me a letter saying "I never called you friend" () and that was the end of it. It haunted me for YEARS, actually. That, to me, was abandonment. The youth minister who did counseling with me for two hears in high school - who I poured my heart out to, who was always there for me, who said he cared - slept with me and told me that we couldn't talk to each other ever again. That was abandonment.

A person in my homeschool group not inviting me to a party everyone else was invited to....that would feel like rejection.

They both hurt, but abandonment is a deeper, longer lasting hurt for me.

When it comes to T - someone who knows everything about me, and who is so important to me - rejection of any part of me would hurt as much as abandonment.

Wow. Thought-provoking question, Deli. And a lot of really thought-provoking responses too!

I dont know why this happens to me. I did get some attention from my father, not always appropriate attention, but I got some. An idea- with men, I have some hope. Maybe. My father's attention was probably of the sexualized kind, or that his attention was so inconsistent that it caused me to keep trying. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
This reply is all over the place But I DO sexualize my feelings for men even when it is a friendship. And I have friendships with men. These feelings are not obvious (at least I hope not!), but I recognize its there.
With female t's, the longing for her isnt sexual, its more of a love me, take care of me, mommy me kind of thing. And I dont know if that is terribly obvious either. WIth a male t, Id want to be his one and only. I would want it ALL! Am I making even a shred of sense?