[Xtree]

We belong to the same church which is very small so I run into her and her husband often and we chat. We also belong to a group in the church that has about 10/15 members. As a group we meet often and have a friendly relationship there. She had some boundaries issues but we decided that we will just be ourselves while we are there. I offered to quit the group if she is uncomfortable but she definitely does not want me to do that. She recommended I join her church in the first place. The church is a wonderful pace to be and has done wonders things for me and she would never want to see me lose it.

Over the summer she thought it would be beneficial to do some couple sessions in my home, it work out well for us. My individual sessions are always in her office. So far it seems okay for me but I cannot foresee what the future may bring. Any thoughts?

Thanks
Xtree

[rainbow8]

It sounds like you have a good relationship with your T both in RL and in your sessions. Was that hard for you at first? I'm asking because I have a similar situation where I see my T often in another setting. It's been difficult, not for her, but for me. I used to want to watch her all of the time, but would be afraid to be close to her or talk to her. Then, it turned into needing to "find her" whenever we were at a function together. Gradually, I've felt more comfortable with seeing her in RL, as I call it, and can act normal with her.

Do others know she's your T? Most people don't know about my T being my T, so it's a strain to be just "casually friendly" with her when I know her so well. I want her to be T in RL too, but I know that would be taking advantage of her.

I've actually had some of my most memorable therapeutic experiences with my T outside of therapy! Plus, seeing her as a "real person" has helped not to idolize or idealize her like I used to do. So, I think it can work. My T has strict boundaries and will tell me what's appropriate or not. She will never become my friend, or invite me to dinner or lunch. But she is friendly when I see her and we can chit-chat for a while.

As long as neither of you cross boundaries and become more than client/T to each other, and you are both comfortable with the situation, I think it's okay.

[fallenangel337]

I would love to see my T in real life, even if it's just us passing each other on the street or something. I'm such a different person outside of therapy, and I wish that she could see that person. Even our interactions, I could imagine, would be different. Good or bad, she sees a completely different side of me that no one else in this world sees. I think it would be cool for her to flip that, and see the side that the world sees. It's weird to think about...even my energy is different outside of therapy. Again, I'd love to share that side of me with her.

[deliquesce]

at some point in the future, i'm fairly certain i will start to know austin-t in a different context (outside therapy; probably just more psych-related work) but he feels more like a mentor to me than a 'therapist' so i am comfortable with the blurred boundaries.

i would love to know pdoc beyond the 'mothership' (as he calls it) but even though he is a lot closer in age to me i think i would feel less comfortable knowing him in his different roles.

[Xtree]

Originally Posted by fallenangel337

I'm such a different person outside of therapy, and I wish that she could see that person.

This is what I was thinking. I found out that we are both different outside her office and it was just as difficult for her as it was for me, maybe a little more for her because the level of power shifts a little. I was devastated when I found out she was uncomfortable, she did not have to tell me I could tell. It made me feel awful, we had to talk about it.

Xtree

[Xtree]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Do others know she's your T?

My T has strict boundaries and will tell me what's appropriate or not. She will never become my friend, or invite me to dinner or lunch.

As long as neither of you cross boundaries and become more than client/T to each other, and you are both comfortable with the situation, I think it's okay.

Only my husband and my kids know. I was a little uncomfortable at first with the thoughts of a "secret" in the air. In the beginning I do not think any boundaries where crossed but I think they are now. Sitting in a friends house together among only 7 or 8 people I think is a little close. Having the option to go to her home for the next meeting or agreeing on self disclosure to make it more comfortable might be boundary crossing.

She is hoping that his kind of relationship might help me relax and open up in therapy, certainly it will and has. I think she wants to be just as friendly with me as I want to be with her. I know all the text books say that will not work but I have read the history of boundaries and they have been going back and forth for years. It all changed in the end to the way it is now mostly due to insurance companies.

But in the end I have everything to lose if ...

Xtree

[Fartraveler]

Sounds really iffy to me.

Don't know what you can do, though, except examine all of the interactions very very carefully in your therapy sessions. I can see that if you both stay really really aware of everything it could benefit your therapy enormously. Does she have supervision? Ask her. If she does, that would help a lot, because then she'll have another reality check.

I have and it was while it felt good at the time, it ended really badly.

I cringed when I read that she recommended that you attend her church.

Plus such a small church. Then all the other stuff...

It might feel good now... but being that involved in your T's life can feel awful if your relationship ever goes bad. It simply isn't worth it taking that chance. The benefits do not outweigh the risks.

[Xtree]

Thanks Exoticflower! This is a very good point. I am not sure I can resist. I am going to try to talk to her about it, if I can. You are right, I have everything to lose especially since the church has become a very important place not just for me and my family too.

Xtree

Originally Posted by exoticflower

It might feel good now... but being that involved in your T's life can feel awful if your relationship ever goes bad. It simply isn't worth it taking that chance. The benefits do not outweigh the risks.

[mightaswelllive]

I just going to chime in with a "be careful" (you too deli)

My old T and I only met in the context of therapy but our relationship was more of a mentor/mentee than a therapist/client. I won't say that we ended badly because I'm not sure how ended our relationship is.. but I will definitely say that it has been rocky. The most recent contact we had was an in depth conversation on boundaries and ethics and ended with her saying, "I'm not sure I've done you right" which was really painful to hear. I'm sure, like my old T did, your T, has the best of intentions for you..

Though, I highly suggest that if you want to have/continue to have an outside relationship with her that you at the very least talk to her about looking for a new T. This is definitely something to talk about with her. Don't avoid it or the line will continue to blur.

Xtree,

I know the feelings of not being able to resist, it is hard not to want more than what we have in a good T relationship. I thought I wanted more, but I learned the hard way. He infiltrated himself into my life. My first 5K, became "our first 5K" my playing the trumpet again became what "what he did for me in order for me to play again". My workout place became "our workout place". It just goes on and on and then eventually he became me. He involved himself into everything I did. Now after I fired him, I had to move on without him, and everything I did within those 2 1/2 of therapy with him feels like a loss. It is like I lost myself. Plus the almost 2 years of depression I went through when I had to fire him. Keeping his life separate from mine was HIS responsibility, just like it is your T's responsibility. There are boundary rules for T's for a reason, it is to protect the both of you. Some T's don't see the seriousness of those rules, and that can become very dangerous.

Your T asking you to join her church and then being in the same study groups is really going past the line of ethical boundaries.

Church is a very personal thing for people, and if anything went wrong, you would be losing a lot. Things would feel very awkward for the both of you. It just isn't worth it. Having a good T is worth so much more than anything you can gain from a personal relationship with them. Personal relationships can get messy and you lose that therapeutic perfection.
Most T's won't even do marriage therapy when they have an individual client first. It blurs the line of who she is suppose to be helping. This whole thing just feels so wrong. I am glad you are at least asking, just you asking shows me you are having some doubts. Go with your gut feeling.

[darkrunner]

I can see what everyone is saying about blurring the boundaries, but what is Xtree supposed to do? They already belong to the same church and church group. It's not fair that Xtree should have to leave because T is in them. And she certainly can't make T leave, and even if she could how would that affect their relationship.

I guess the other option is getting a new T???

Xtree - how long have you been with this T? Aside from this issue, how is therapy going? Do you trust her?

You said she had some 'boundaries issues' - I assume she discussed this with you. What did she say? Did you express your concerns, like you did in your post here?

I guess I am saying that I can see the risks as well as anyone, and if this was before the fact it would be easy to tell Xtree not to get involved in this situation. But now that she is, it's not so easy to figure out what to do about it.

[deliquesce]

mighty - if you don't mind me asking, how has the continued blurring become bad/difficult?

[Christina86]

I knew/know my therapist outside of therapy Actually, it was that way for three of my therapists. And then with another therapist I also saw her in a psychotherapy group (she's now no longer my therapist, but I do see my current psychiatrist there).

The first three therapists were doing their internship for their MA in Pastoral Counselling at my university, so I met them there. It was nice to get to know them on a personal level beyond "rules" and "confidentiality". I wouldn't change the experience for anything, I like knowing that people actually have lives outside of their career/job. Every once in a while my first therapist (who is now my current therapist, yes that's confusing) stops by at my university in the chaplaincy to say hi to people there because she likes to visit on occassion. It's not a secret I'm one of her current clients with my friends either. It's kinda cool to be able to associate beyond the 1-2 hours a week thing.

[rainbow8]

I'm with you, Christina! In spite of my initial confused feelings when I saw my T outside of therapy, it's been more positive than negative. I have a good feeling when I see her; it's comforting for me and I like seeing her as a regular person just like me.

xtree, it sounds a little different for you, though. Your T is encouraging the almost dual relationship. Mine isn't. It happens that our paths cross, but she doesn't make that happen. She's friendly when she sees me, but there is no doubt what our relationship really is.

I would bring up your concerns with her and see what she says.

I do think there is a difference in occasionally seeing them in places to seeing them at least once a week in church and than sometimes other times too in small groups, possibly at the T's house.
It is possible nothing bad will happen, but it is a huge risk, especially for a client. I am not sure what to do about this.
It is probably projection on my part, but it feels a lot like my old situation with my 1st T. He does stuff and then I am left to pick up the pieces, instead of them keeping their lives separate to begin with.
With that said, I have seen my 2nd T and my current T out and about and that is totally different, it was positive, a little uncomfortable, but okay. This is different than a planned weekly occasion like I described above.

At one point, my pastor was my t. He was a licensed pastoral counselor. So we saw each other at church services. He taught Sunday School. We went to picnics together, etc, etc,. I never really found it awkward. In fact, he also ran a therapy group I was in for incest survivors and several of us were all members of the church. We respected each others' privacy and were able to keep the various relationships distinct.

Xtree,

Well you situation must be really on my mind because last night I had a dream that I was at my current T's house.

Have you talked to your T about this whole thing yet?

[Xtree]

Originally Posted by exoticflower

Xtree,

Well you situation must be really on my mind because last night I had a dream that I was at my current T's house.

Have you talked to your T about this whole thing yet?

Thanks Exotic! Funny, I had a dream too. I dreamed that I was late and totally missed a church thing we are doing together this Sunday. I think it is on my mind too. With all the chat here I am getting a little nervous about how risky it is regardless of how much I would like to do.

Like Darkrunner said ... "I guess I am saying that I can see the risks as well as anyone, and if this was before the fact it would be easy to tell Xtree not to get involved in this situation. But now that she is, it's not so easy to figure out what to do about it."

I agree with Darkrunner, the problem is we are both already in too deep. I do not want a new T and neither one of us want to quit the church.

We discussed it a little at our last session. Bounderies inhibit her (and me) so she is not going to be concerned about boundaries while at church or church events. If any issues come up and we should talking about it. Sounds interesting, doesn't it?

Xtree

Hi Xtree,

Did your T actually say she wasn't going to be concerned with her boundaries during church activities? T's need to be concerned about boundaries ALL the time when with a client, especially outside of the office.

My T and I got a big chuckle today out of my dream of me being at her house. I told her next time I shouldn't sleep in so I don't get those dreams. lol ( i was skipping my daily 5K walk) lol But the dream was all about boundaries and me making sure she kept hers. (but it signified my other T relationships) In the dream she had me over to her house for a party. I kept asking her if she was going to put the food back in the fridge and she said no and started to dump all the bowls into the trash. I asked her if she was going to recycle those containers, and she said no. Some reason I had to spend the night. She tried to spoon me(non sexual) and I refused. Plus her bed was lumpy and I didn't sleep well.(she said that can signify something hidden under the surface) Then in the morning she offered me donuts only ( I wanted to eat healthy) and I didn't want one and I asked her if she wanted to go out for breakfast. She said she couldn't because it was unethical. (like spending the night isn't) lol One part I didn't tell her because it is kinda gross, she had staining on the back of her gray sweats from her period. LOL

I told her about your situation and she is very concerned for you. She feels your T has crossed some major boundaries and she hopes you don't go to her house for ANY reason including church.

So how else would you like to inspire my dreams? Can it have a non-T in it who is drop dead gorgeous or something?

[elliemay]

So, I think you've gotten some excellent feedback on both the positives and the negatives of the dynamics of the relationship with your T.

My only advice would be to keep evaluating the situation, how you feel, and if this situation has remained therapeutic. Your therapy is about you and your recovery and in that space between you, there has to be room for anger, sadness, disagreements and repair. The role of the T, IMO, is to facillitate that exploration, everything else sort of has to remain secondary.

Personally, I'm a huge fan of believing that my T lives in his office and never leaves it. Every now and again I've seen him free range. It's a shock - like OMG! He's loose!

We were at the same restaurant one time, and I just kind of sat there like WTH? It was like watching an exotic species in it's native environment - Rather fascinating, but also rather uncomfortable.

However, sort of like your situation, it did help me to realize that he was going to be the "keeper" of my truths you know? He could hold them, and well, still manage to be normal enough to eat in a restaurant.

For me though, all in all, like most exotic species, I think direct contact in the wild is best avoided.

[Xtree]

Hi Exoticflower. Thank you for sharing you dream with me (us). I think the stain was a very important part of the dream! Maybe it means that all that personal (boundry crossing) with your T sounds nice and you would like to try it but down deep in side you know it can be damaging or hurting. I do not know what it means but I am definitely going to think about it. I am saving all non drop dead gorgeous Ts for my dreams but I am willing to share!

Thank you for sharing some of this with your T. Does she know you chat here? I am going to play it by ear for now. I am going to try to be very aware of how church feels and how therapy feels. I am going to try to bring up any concerns I have. If that is difficult for me I will write it down. It is not only my side I am worried about though I feel I have the most to risk. I have no idea how she will feel treating me after a while. What if she ends up have a difficult time with it. I wonder how it will be from her point of view? Time will tell.

Xtree

Originally Posted by exoticflower

I told her about your situation and she is very concerned for you. She feels your T has crossed some major boundaries and she hopes you don't go to her house for ANY reason including church.

So how else would you like to inspire my dreams? Can it have a non-T in it who is drop dead gorgeous or something?

[darkrunner]

Xtree,
I think the level of awareness you have about this situation is a very good thing. You have to trust your T in the context of therapy. So if you you don't trust your T's judgement in this situation, you might as well say you don't trust her at all and therapy is useless. I'm not sure exactly what I am trying to say here, but this seems like an 'all or nothing' type of situation. It is a decision you have to make. A difficult decision.
I am kind of sad that you have been put in this situation, and that you have these concerns to deal with. It seems like an extra complication in therapy that was unnecessary to begin with.

I am wondering if you can say more about what you said here:

It is not only my side I am worried about though I feel I have the most to risk. I have no idea how she will feel treating me after a while. What if she ends up have a difficult time with it. I wonder how it will be from her point of view? Time will tell.

You shouldn't have to worry about your T's point of view, and how she will deal with this. You shouldn't have to take care of your T, it should be the other way around. Do you feel she has put your therapy with her in jeopardy?

Xtree, I'm sorry if I am asking to many questions. I understand if you want to let this discussion go for now. You have made your decision and you have to be ok with it. I keep thinking about this situation and I'm really trying to make sense of it. On one hand it sounds like it will be fine, but on the other hand I am worried about the doubts that you have, and how that will affect your therapy.
ok, I think I'm talking in circles now. So I'll stop. Sorry.

[Xtree]

Thanks Dark runner for caring, I do not mind at all. I think it is an important issue for me and anyone else who is considering they would like a relationship with their T outside the office in a "dual relationship" or as friends. I think it is important to remember that this situation started off innocent and then it turned into something neither one of us expected. So now the question is how to handle it. I am receiving feedback from many different perspective which is GREAT!

In my question below I was wondering what if she has an issue treating me in therapy as we continue in this kind of relationship? I have received tons of feedback here on how I may feel but what if she has some unforeseen problems with it?

I do not think it is fair to have this conversation without a little back ground information. i not only have a difficult time opening up in therapy but I have a hard time just talking. I get scared waiting in the lobby, my heart races, not to the level of a panic attack but enough to shut down. After almost 2 years I never accepted the "one sided relationship". So this transparency all started in an effort to make me feel more comfortable. In the meantime I believe she grew an attachment for me. I know she likes me, which is wonderful because I like her very much too.

I told her in our last session that I have a lot at risk and she said she did too. I am not sure what she meant? What big risks would she have? This is only the beginning for me, us. It is new territory for her as well.

Thanks again!!
Xree

Originally Posted by darkrunner

I am wondering if you can say more about what you said here:

"It is not only my side I am worried about though I feel I have the most to risk. I have no idea how she will feel treating me after a while. What if she ends up have a difficult time with it. I wonder how it will be from her point of view? Time will tell."

[darkrunner]

Originally Posted by Xtree

In my question below I was wondering what if she has an issue treating me in therapy as we continue in this kind of relationship? I have received tons of feedback here on how I may feel but what if she has some unforeseen problems with it?

Ohhhh..I see, so you're trying to see things from her perspective. I guess it would be assumed that she would be able to handle any problems. But you are wondering what if she isn't. Where would that leave you? That is a good question, and maybe something to bring up with her.

Originally Posted by Xtree

So this transparency all started in an effort to make me feel more comfortable. In the meantime I believe she grew an attachment for me. I know she likes me, which is wonderful because I like her very much too.

Originally Posted by Xtree

I told her in our last session that I have a lot at risk and she said she did too. I am not sure what she meant? What big risks would she have? This is only the beginning for me, us. It is new territory for her as well.

So this whole thing started as a way to help you feel more comfortable with her in therapy? It sounds like she is really putting herself out there for you. Maybe that is what she means when she says she has a lot at risk. Could you ask her what she meant by that?
Do you know if she has done anything like this for any other clients?