Boundaries

Just wondering what you all think. When I was 19 until I was 23 I saw a psychiatrist. I was young, very confused, depressed and acting out all over the place. This woman (the pdoc) was relatively young (38) and had been in the country from Romania only a few years, tho she was a psychiatrist.

She saw me first in a clinic with sliding scale fees, when I couldnt afford that, she saw me on in a room on her psych unit and didnt charge me. We had regular once or twice/week sessions for 5 yrs and she put me on medication. She sort of took me under her wing, advised me about men, gave me some clothes of hers that she was giving away, purses, make-up and shoes so Id have nice clothes to wear. She sometimes drove me home, which is a big deal in NYCity where I could have taken the subway or bus. We talked during those times, too. I never, ever thought she did anything inappropriate or said anything unusual. I felt like she cared for me. I was young with no parents to give me direction or care and I was on my own.

I was stupid and left on a bad note. I just left and never said good bye.. All these years later I feel bad about that and I wonder if she is even still alive. My question is- according to what I read here, she isnt supposed to do any of that, but she did and it helped me tremendously at the time. And, wouldnt it seem strange to contact her 30 yrs later to tell her I am sorry I left the way I did? She probably wouldnt even remember. She would be about 69 yrs old now.

My thinking is, Blue, that if it helped you back then...this is a positive thing. The boundaries do sound very loose, but it seems they caused you no harm. If it is weighing on your mind now...even after all of these years...why not try and contact her? It might be a valuable experience for both of you.

((((((((((((Blue)))))))))))))

I bet it would feel good to contact her. It doesn't seem strange to me. And I'm sure she remembers.

It seems like the relationship you had with her really helped you. I don't see any wrong in what happened.

I agree with the others, maybe you could try and find her?

My sister just recently contacted an old therapist after 20 or 30 years. My sister sent her an email and she responded. They wrote back and forth several time and then spoke on the telephone. They had only seen each other for a fews weeks back then so the therapist did not remember her. But she was very inviting and welcoming, it was a very nice reunion.

Xtree

Go for it, it is important to you

When I was in middle school, I had a school guidance counselor who taught me to lipread. Several study halls each week we would meet and "talk"--she did not speak out loud, but I replied out loud. I was hearing impaired and did not have a hearing aid. It was a most wonderful gift she gave me. Life changing. I had the good luck to run into her many, many years later unexpectedly. When I could compose myself from the sudden overwhelming gratitude I felt, I approached her and tearfully thanked her for giving me such a meaningful and life-changing gift.
I am so fortunate that I had the chance to do that. It felt so good to say thank you.

Thank for all of your feedback. Echoes, what a touching story. I wanted to cry when I read it. What was her reaction when you thanked her? It must have been a very emotional reunion.

I guess I could start by googling her name- can you believe I have never done that? Im a pretty good net-stalker.

Also Echoes- I had a dream about you. Isnt that something? I guess I should PM you about it rather than type it out here.

I had a T who helped me eight years ago through the initial stage of a very difficult time. I had been arrested, was facing 20 years, and was getting kicked out of my church (and subsequently my network of friends and family). She set me up with an attorney friend of hers for the legal issues (who made one brilliant move in the courtroom and got my charge reduced to a misdemeanor), she kept me from running back to the religion to beg them to let me back in, and she basically told me everything I needed to do during that time. I listened to every word she said and I did everything she told me to do. Some would say she stepped over a boundary by giving advice, telling me what to do, and setting me up with an attorney. I, though, am grateful that she did those things.

I look back through my life (of what I can remember) and can think of only four people who I would tag as godly or placed by God on my journey; she was one of them. I owe so much to her, and when I'm conducting writing classes in the local jail, I think of her and hope that just maybe it's my form of giving back for the bad things I've done and as a means to pay her kindness forward.

She retired and I thought I had not corresponded with her after she left, but recently I came across a box of old stuff and found letters from her, so I guess we did correspond for some time afterward. This past summer my then-therapist tried to reach out to her when this dissociative stuff started happening to understand what happened while I was seeing her (she had said I was DID), but her practice said that she left the state years ago and no one ever heard from her again. One of the parts inside was tasked to locate her, and damn if he didn't. Now, her address sits on my desk and I haven't decided what to do.

(Bluemoon))
I'm a little spooked by your story with your old T. I just turned 24 and have been seeing T for a year and a half now. My T is 38yrs old. I won't get into certain things as to not cause a commotion with ( boundary talk) but my T has done So much for me because i so needed it. T has taken me under her wing and it feels so safe. i feel loved for the first time in my life. I never new that someone could love and care about me that much. I love the feeling of having T and i appreciate all that she has done for me. If this makes me naive then so be it. I'm willing to take the risk.

I think you should contact your T. You turned out to be a wonderful person that has accomplished great things in her life....your T is part of that. I'm sure she would love to hear from you and see how far you've come.

Since I was pretty much a jerk most of my life...Now whenI feel the urge to show gratifude I really try to do it. I would say, go for it. What's that song, "Say what you need say." There is no harm in you writing her and saying thank you. It is really great that you've been able to look back and remember her caring.

My first t when I was in college went far and beyond for me. On the night my father confronted my perpetrator, my t took me to his house where I would be safe because my perp was headed to find me and my t was unsure what kind of mental state he would be in. When my perp got to town, he was told to call my t. My t took me up to his office in the middle of the night, had campus security on hand for protection, and met with us for several hours. When we were done, he took me back to his house for the rest of the night to be sure I was safe. Some would say that was stepping over boundaries, but he wasn't about to let anything happen to me if he could prevent it. (In case you are wondering, his wife was at home at the time.) He was there for me in a way no other person in my life has ever been there for me. 25 years later, we still keep in touch. He assures me that I had just as much impact on his life as he did on mine. It is a very blessed relationship.

Writingwithink,sw,chaotic and farmergirl- It occurred to me, after reading your stories that we all have stories to tell with Ts that cared and bent the boundaries to be there and do what was needed.

Writing- You were very fortunate to have your T there as an angel guiding you. It does seem like divine providence sometimes, doesnt it? I am glad there were no very serious consequences for you during that time. Hugs to you.

Farmer- It does seem like your T was also an angel there to protect and look out for your safety. It does seem that there are times when the boundaries of the profession need to be changed in order to deal with a situation. In such a crisis, I believe the boundaries were just as they should have been. He protected his client who he cared deeply for. Im glad you were safe and T knew just what to do.

Chaotic- LOL! I know that "jerk" behvior. Oh, sigh.....it isnt pleasant to look back on, is it? But we are the loveliest of people now, arent we?

SW- I have read your posts about you and your T and they do remind me of the T I saw when I was younger. For me, its all OK and your T sounds like she knows what she wants to do for you and what you need. You are very, very fortunate to have found her. She sounds like a blessing in your life

I think I will do some googling and see if I can find her. I guess I havent done it b/c I never thought Id do anything with the information. I also feel shame about how I left. I dont remember why I did what I did (if I was angry and left? Or what I could have been thinking), but I guess it doesnt really matter now.

I'll keep you posted if I find her. Im looking forward to this search Thanks for all of your encouragement.

Hi Blue Moon,
I've been thinking about this since you posted it.....thinking, thinking, and not sure how to respond. What you said here stuck with me...

It kind of seems like you are wondering how ethical she was in doing all she did for you, just because it didn't end up hurting you, was she overstepping boundaries.

I think if all of that were happening now, and you were posting about it here, you would definitely get some responses telling you to watch out, that it could end up badly.

You also said she was from Romania, and I also wondered if there were any cultural differences that came into play.

But, I truly believe that if we are open to them, the right people are put into our paths to help us get through life. It sounds like she was such a person for you.
I'm glad you had her help, and that it DIDN'T turn out badly.

I also wondered, from your original post, if sub-conciously you were uncomfortable with the blurred boundaries, and if that could have been an unknowing reason you left her care so abruptly?

I don't know.....just a bunch of speculations and wondering that ocurred to me from post. Feel free to completely ignore me.

Darkrunner- It is interesting to me what you posted. A lot of it is hard to remember as it was 30 yrs ago, but as I recall, I think there were some cultural things going on. I think coming from Europe, she may have been more inclined to help me in a more personal way, whereas an American therapist may have been more rigid about boundaries. Or maybe not, look at the beautiful stories shared in this thread.

At the time, it felt strange for someone who I looked up to, a parent type of person, to care for me. I never had that kind of caring without strings attached. Its too bad I didnt think to go there with her during therapy. I wondererd what she wanted from me. And she didnt want anything. I felt that she was committed to helping me. It may also have been that I was young and alone. I think Id do the same for a young girl in that situation.

I remember being curious about her life- she was getting divorced and then shortly got re-married to another doctor in the hopsital. Interesting! She kept changing her last name! I wanted to stalk the new H, but in those days, there was no way. So, she had a full like with a lot going on. But she did tell me she was never able to have children. I remember distinctly that she told me that and I felt badly for her b/c it looked like she wanted them.

At the time, I wasnt uncomfortable with blurred boundaries. I had no idea what boundaries were and I didnt have any feel for her doing anything too close for comfort. SHe never did. I was grateful for the clothes and advice. I a lot learned from her. I have to think aobut how/why I left. I dont think it was a single incident. It could have been that I found my next T and stopped going to her so often and then stopped altogether. I have to think back. But I know there was no closure and I didnt coontact her again. How sad.

I think it is unfortunate that when people go above and beyond what they need to do in order to help someone out of caring and generosity, like your T did, it is necessary to question motives and protect ourselves.
Don't you?
But if you think about it, that's the angle evil T's can use to take advantage. That makes it all very confusing. We always want to believe the best of someone, especially someone who is acting like they care for us. It's just hard to know when our belief is leading us down a dangerous path.

I'm sorry, Blue, maybe I am hijacking your thread. This topic triggered something for me and I'm not expressing myself very well.
ok, I'll be quiet now.

Blue, I think she would remember if you saw her for 4 years. But even if she didn't, you could still send her a note. Or if you can't find her, you could help get some closure by writing her a letter and saying what you want to say, but just not send it.

When I was 17-18 or so, I saw a psychiatrist for a while, almost accidentally (long story), and I too left abruptly, without a word or look back. He was a good man, and I became angry at him for something (a fairly major thing, I realize now), and didn't even know I was angry or how to express it, or couldn't face expressing it, or something (anger problems and I date back decades). My solution was to leave, so I wouldn't have to face that. Three years ago, when I began therapy with my current T--also a good man--I had lots of memories coming up of this former psychiatrist from my youth. I had not thought about him for decades. I felt like he stood there in therapy with us, like a shadow in the corner, listening and watching. So this was one of the first things we worked on in therapy--getting closure with my leaving this relationship. We talked about him and our relationship, and its unique basis and why I was angry. I had never worked all this out for myself as a young woman. My T thought I was sad about leaving and never saying good-bye and never getting closure, but he perceived that because I felt so good about him, that I couldn't properly grieve in therapy. So he had me do an out of therapy assignment, which was to write letter to my former psychiatrist, telling him what I wanted him to know and what I hadn't had a chance to say because I left him so suddenly. Outside of the presence of my T, I was able to write this letter and grieve. Writing the letter did help me, even though it was never sent.

Blue, I wonder if your situation is at all like mine--do you think you are having memories and thoughts now of this therapist from your past because your current relationship with the new T is reminiscent?

DR- You arent hijacking! I love reading your perspective and responses to me It is very confusing, not about my pdoc, but about what a person's motives may be. I have been very naive thorughout my life when it comes to this. Of course, I am better now at trusting my instincts and at recognizing signs that someone is not being all that up front with me. But, when someone is nice, it IS SO difficult to discern what is nice and what is manipulative or insincere. I respond to nice, almost as if it is a trigger for me. Act nice to me and you've got all of me forever. Sigh....

Sunny- You did an amazing job with T going back there. I think any kind of closure, even yrs later, can give you a sense of peace and being understood.

I am thinking and thinking if my current T is reminiscent of my pdoc. I dont know. Im tyring to find a connection. Whcih way could it be reminiscent? They dont really act alike, or maybe they do? I felt so mothered by pdoc, but not by ftt. I dont feel mothered by her (which is why I dont feel obsessed, Im sure of it now). They dont look alike.

Maybe I am exploring all of the corners of my mind that has caused me discomfort and pain. I cant begin to even say how working on my finances has me opened me up to working on anything that has troubled me. I want to go back to working on my father issues, too. Im feeling like it will all be OK. As if I am separating the shame and fear from ME. I am not my shame or fear. I will be OK. I say that now, but as I move along with the money thing there will be more terror coming up. I can go back and forth.

About this previous T, I feel like it is unfinished business. I felt like I was ungrateful and rude to just leave like that. Selfish. Oh, boy this is triggering my unworthy of being cared for stuff. That I wasnt worthy of it so I should have been more grateful and thanked her properly. There is a part of me that believes I wasnt deserving of all that care so I better go back, clear it up and say a proper thank you. Well, it is both, I am grateful and regret my actions as a teenager and she did give a lot to me, on the other hand, it brings up my feelings of having been undeserving of the care. I didnt realize it until I typed it out here.

Maybe how you feel when you are with her is similar. Safe? Able to share? Trust? I think for me the link was 1) they were both male and 2) the act of sitting in the room alone with him, talking about myself. This was not something I had experienced since that early age. The two men are really not much alike at all, but the similarity was in how I felt.

I have to give that some thought, I never made that connection before. But, guess what? I found her on the internet. Boy, that was frighteningly easy. I "americanized" her name and there she was- in New Jersey. I called the number there for her, but after about 10000 voice prompts I got nowhere. Maybe b/c its a weekend. I dont imagine that I'll call. But maybe I will. I dont know. I have to think about this. I didnt think Id find her so fast!

i think it'd be nice to send her a letter. remember, this is about getting closure for you - her response doesn't matter. she might reply, she might just read it and feel good that you wrote to her, or she might read it and not remember who you are. the important thing is that you said what you wanted to say.

my guess however is that she will remember you, and be grateful that you took the time to write.

I think youre right, Deli. I would have some closure. I think she will remember back and she probably wondered what happened to me.

It wouldnt be too difficult to write a letter. I could send it or find some kind of email. I am going to call the number on monday and talk with someone. I will probably get a secretary or something. I'll find out how I can get in touch with her. I have therapy on monday. Its been 2 weeks since she was away on vacation so I dont want to waste time on this. Eventually, I'll bring it up.

Remember, Monday is a U.S. holiday too!

Blue - thank you for this thread. It is very inspirational to read how we are assisted throughout our lives. Sometimes the "wrong" thing to do is very much the RIGHT thing. It reminds me of the story a famous "teacher" once told asking what person who had livestock would allow that animal to suffer and die just because there was some law on the books that "said" you could not help the animal on a specific day.
Reminds me also of Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development.

In what I am reading, the Ts who went above and beyond the call of duty to actually assist a fellow human in true need are operating at the highest stages - 5 or even 6.
Sticking to the letter of the Law is only stage 4.

My hats off to those who know what true morality is inside their souls and practice it - thereby changing the world one person at a time.

In my psych case study book, there is a case where the therapist is making slow progress with a client and the turning point comes when he loans her $500 so that she won't get kicked out of her apartment before an alternative funding source kicks in for her. The case noted that this completely goes against what therapists are taught about boundaries, but yet it was instrumental in moving this therapist-client team forward. The client realized that if her T would loan her $500, he really cared for her and she could really trust him, which had been a big issue for her, and had prevented significant progress in therapy. After this, their relationship blossomed and they made faster progress. The book made the point that sometimes "rules" can be bent and huge gains result. Every case is individual and the T needs to make those important decisions on what would be beneficial or harmful.

I think one thing that probably divides a really good therapist from an OK one is how good they are at this. I think some of this flexibility will come with experience--a newer T may want to "play it by the book" for some time until he/she has a good grasp of when and with whom to be flexible. Blue, it sounds like your T had the experience and wisdom to know that helping you would not be harmful.

I really like hearing about therapists who go above and beyond, like the one you described Sunrise, and Blue Moon's T, and everyone else who has described such experiences.

But I can't seem to get over this uncomfortable feeling. And this is why:

Doesn't this place a huge burden on the client to know when a T has their best interests in mind, and when the T's goals is exploitation?

In Sunrise's example, it seemed like that was a good T whose act of generosity was a great help to the client. But, what if the T was evil, and lent the money so that in the future the client would feel obligated in the future, to do something the T wanted? At the time of the loan of money, how is the client supposed to know and be able to judge the T's ultimate intentions?

Maybe I am thinking of this in the wrong way, and my experiences are coloring my ability to look at it objectively.