[BlackCanary]

Hello PC Cloud

The recent challenge with my T (see Why do I care where the Therapist sits?) has led to termination.

Initially I was quite distressed about both the change and the lack of discussion. I returned the following week and adapted to the change of seats - thanks to all who engaged in discussion with me in the other thread. I returned again this week, and in trying to get a better understanding of why T did not try to discuss the change with me, he gave me the recommendation that I should probably take a break.

I've definitely lost much of my trust in T, he has little credibility with me at this point - he asked this and I said yes.
I pointed out that 2 wk before the incident, I shared something very personal and provoking - I really felt safe at that point - and he pulled WAY back after that and I connect the two. He gave a non-committal "I can see that"
I've definitely got little faith that he won't repeat this kind of "no dialog" approach in the future, since it has happened previously (Dec, Sept, July, April 2009) and I have no sense that he gets outside support for dealing with his side of the issue. My intuition is that he was so wrapped up in his discomfort that he did not handle it well (told him so, he said "That's certainly possible"). I'm tired of his discomfort intruding on my therapy in a hurtful way - geez, he's supposed to work on that out of my view!

What challenges me is that he's pulled back further, writing: "You have to decide for yourself. I'm not going to advocate or encourage." There is no dialog about the value of the therapeutic relationship. (He's on a salary, so losing a regular client does not impact his income.)

Right now I'm willing to listen to him if there is something he's like to talk about re:therapeutic relationship, but know I cannot do therapy with him, cannot sit down and talk about my stuff. So, a break is in order in any case.

Am I expecting too much? Does the therapist have no, some or equal responsibility for the relationship? Are we doing therapy with a "therapist", a universally interchangeable human, or a specific person who is engaging with us as we are engaging in return?
I've considered that my role in this failure is that I truly did not understand the therapeutic relationship, that it is my internal construct and mine alone to maintain or discontinue.

Any thoughts for me?

[WePow]

((((((((((( BC )))))))))))) I am very sorry you are not getting the help you need from that T. That must be frustrating for sure. Can you arrange to get a different T? If so, I would do that ASAP!

[BlackCanary]

Yes, I probably can make arrangements to see someone in the network, but it will be limited to 12 visits. Right now I think I'll take some time off, see how it feels.

[rainbow8]

I'm sorry you're terminating, but it seems like the right decision for you. T sounds like a typical Freudian psychoanalyst, the kinds that never tell you anything directly--the blank slate kind of T. I know that you can find a T who is a much better fit for you.

Am I expecting too much? Does the therapist have no, some or equal responsibility for the relationship? Are we doing therapy with a "therapist", a universally interchangeable human, or a specific person who is engaging with us as we are engaging in return?
I've considered that my role in this failure is that I truly did not understand the therapeutic relationship, that it is my internal construct and mine alone to maintain or discontinue.

Every T is different, so yes, we are doing therapy with a person, not a stereotype of a "T". But it depends on the T's orientation as to how much the T will engage with us. If it is a "blank slate" kind of T, and I honestly didn't think those kind existed anymore, then the T will give non-commital answers and revert everything back to you, like your T is doing. But most Ts want to be more "real" to their clients. If there is a misunderstanding, they will admit their mistakes, and have a dialogue with you. They would see the "where do I sit" situation as worthy of a dialogue. But as I'm writing this, I am picturing my former T. She would be irritated with me, and not think it worth discussing. But my current T would.

But as to whether to terminate therapy or not, I agree with your T that it has to be YOUR decision, not his. But he should give you his feedback if you want it. From what you posted in this thread, he seems to want to be a total "blank slate" kind of T. He reminds me of the T computer program they used to have, where whatever you said, the T gave canned responses like "Tell me more" or "I can see you are upset" or "How do you feel about that?" without ever getting to know the client. It sounds like that's the way your T chooses to do therapy, and other clients may like that approach, but it doesn't work for you.

[Melbadaze]

Black, I dont see your Ts responses to you as theraputic, if theres one thing my T does, thats demonstrates she doesnt want me to quit yet, often when I say, Oh I give up, she replys, Oh I'm not giving up yet. I'm sorry this is going on for you.

[Snakebit]

BlackCanary,

Originally Posted by BlackCanary

Am I expecting too much? Does the therapist have no, some or equal responsibility for the relationship? Are we doing therapy with a "therapist", a universally interchangeable human, or a specific person who is engaging with us as we are engaging in return?

Any thoughts for me?

My T maintains that the relationship between the T and the client is more important than any psychology methods used. This came up when he said he felt like I was using him like a self-serve gas station, i.e, I wasn't developing a relationship with him, but was treating him as an interchangeable T. He wasn't happy.

Based on this and the fact that my T is the best I've had in over 20 years - you and your T didn't "mesh", that's all. I'd use your break to try to find a T who fits your criteria.

[BlackCanary]

Thanks all.
T wrote me this morning, says clearly I have questions for him, would I consider another appt, we can perhaps have more clarity if we meet again.

I said yes, I'd come and listen, but not right now, maybe in June. I don't have confidence in getting a direct answer. I want to keep my heart and mind open and flexible. But, my logical and emotional selves, plus my family members (husband, SIL) do not want me to return to a situation where I might get hurt again. Need to heal a bit more.

It's funny, he is SO neutral in his responses but would never say he's psychoanalytic or Freudian! He says he is eclectic. He once said I'm his most Freudian client but could not explain what he meant. I think he's adapted to what I needed at the time? But I have also changed a great deal in 16 mo of weekly therapy! So, what I need now may be different from what he can provide. We have previously discussed gaps between what I'd like in therapy and what he can provide. Maybe that is where we go again in order to close this out.

There is no "Cosmo Quiz" about keep or dump your therapist!

[BlackCanary]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

He reminds me of the T computer program they used to have, where whatever you said, the T gave canned responses like "Tell me more" or "I can see you are upset" or "How do you feel about that?" without ever getting to know the client.

You can find the ELIZA chatbot program out on the web. It can be funny but eventually pretty annoying

[sunrise]

If it were me, I'd go to see him again to learn more. Maybe I wouldn't view it as a continuation of therapy with him (if only to protect myself), but as an opportunity to understand what happened with our relationship. Perhaps that might help you with your next T or in other relationships in your life. Although this isn't your responsibility, perhaps it would help him understand better what happened and help him with future clients.

Originally Posted by BlackCanary

in trying to get a better understanding of why T did not try to discuss the change with me, he gave me the recommendation that I should probably take a break.

To me it doesn't follow that wanting to discuss the seating arrangement would lead to a suggestion that you take a break. Did you feel like he didn't like you questioning his authority to control the seating and therefore he wants to get rid of you? Seems like an extreme reaction.

I've definitely lost much of my trust in T, he has little credibility with me at this point - he asked this and I said yes.

He asked if his credibility with you was gone, and you said yes?

I pointed out that 2 wk before the incident, I shared something very personal and provoking - I really felt safe at that point - and he pulled WAY back after that and I connect the two. He gave a non-committal "I can see that"

I am interested that what you shared was provoking. Was it something you said to provoke him personally? Or would it be provoking to anyone or any therapist (e.g. "I hate all men" or "Therapists are stupid")? I don't like his non-committal "I can see that." That would be highly triggering for me, as I have had several key male figures in my life who would not take responsibility for their actions. I think if a therapist has a role in something that happens in therapy, they should own up to it, especially if the client asks. Maybe I'm overinterpreting what your T said, but to me it sounds like he was sidestepping his own role in your interactions. There have been a few times that my T had some countertransference going on, and he immediately told me and said he was struggling with it, so I would know that his responses might be colored with his own "stuff." I remember one time I said to him that he had seemed "appalled" when I told him a certain thing, and he thought a moment, and said, "I was appalled." That sticks in my mind as very important--an admission that he felt and expressed something that was noticed by me. It helped me trust him. If he had said, "I can see that," this would have not increased trust or made me feel that I had imagined his reaction. That response would have been detrimental to our relationship, and that sounds like may be what is happening with your T. I agree with you that he needs to seek supervision if this is what is going on.

Have you discussed his pattern of pulling back from you? I think it's a huge thing he needs to work on, if that is what's happening. The relationship sounds very complicated and troubling, BlackCanary. I hope you can find out the answers to your questions.

Am I expecting too much? Does the therapist have no, some or equal responsibility for the relationship?

I think the therapist has MORE responsibility for the relationship than the client. Many clients don't know how to have healthy relationships (exhibit A = moi). With such relationship-challenged people, the therapist needs to model how to have the relationship, or give overt observations. My ability to have a relationship has increased hugely since starting therapy. If the therapist sits there passively and doesn't model how to interact and have a relationship, how will the client learn? In school, the therapist is supposed to learn all about how to create and maintain a therapeutic relationship. They have way more training than your average client. So yes, the therapist needs to bring more.

I've considered that my role in this failure is that I truly did not understand the therapeutic relationship, that it is my internal construct and mine alone to maintain or discontinue.

I do believe that you are correct that you are the one who gets to decide to discontinue. And the T is not supposed to talk you out of it, I do believe. Most of the initial consent forms say something to the effect that "the client is free to discontinue treatment at any time." However, in terms of maintenance, the therapist has a big role.

Good luck, BlackCanary. I am sorry for what has happened. I hope you can learn more from your T, but only if that is what you want.

[Sannah]

So is he having counter transference with you?

[BlackCanary]

@Sannah - neither confirmed nor denied at this point. My SIL and I both think YES.
C'mon, I know you've got more for me than that

@Sunrise - the core question is "why didn't you honor the relationship enough to discuss it with me?" which is something he taught me about expressing my boundaries and discomfort if they are crossed. Digging here, I asked "what would you suggest to me at this point" and he said A break.
Credibility - yes, he said "I've really lost my credibility with you" and I said Yes, you have.
Provoking - he asked me about behaviors I had at 18 yr old. I had told him before about how I acted w/older men. So I gave him an example, using him as the example (pic - from Google Street View - of the clinic he works at on Saturdays, with the store address and a time to meet for lunch at Subway. I seriously did the whole thing in 5 min at work, unlike the days of work needed when I was 18...). I truly considered not doing it, and then later to skip sharing it since I knew it was provoking, but I figured hey, you are supposed to tell it in therapy, not hide it. Any therapist would have been provoked; good ones deal with it and talk about it, like yours did, he was honest with you.
I've previously told him "All men are pigs" and he agrees there are many examples of this....

Overall, I feel like his stuff (his own things or reactions to my stuff) has intruded on my therapy just one time too many. And it's just not supposed to happen, at least not this much, and if it happens then at least be honest that "hey, this is my stuff and I'll handle on my own time, sorry for that".

I expect I'll eventually feel like having that final appt, to close things out and see if there is more clarity available.

[Sannah]

I'm still confused about how you provoked him? I'm not sure what happened yet.

[BlackCanary]

@Sannah, he found this picture and invite to lunch very provoking, I/my 18-yr old self was proposing a serious boundary violation.
I know I was VERY nervous about sharing it, almost had to hide this from myself.

Once he figured out what the picture was (Google street view not in focus), a look of horror flashed across his face. He asked "Did you take this picture?" He also wanted to know what was the purpose of the lunch invite, what would "she" expect to happen?. I told him "Wait and see, that's was the whole point, create the opportunity for something to happen".
When I was 18, this gave me great power, to get a 30-something man who should know better to meet an 18 yr old HS girl for lunch.

While later he acknowledged he knew I'd never show up, and I told him multiple times that my adult self would never and knew HE would never, I did pull out that picture at my last appt and tell him "It seems like sharing this may have caused you to withdraw, reset the boundaries" and he replied "I can see that" - no commitment either way.

[ECHOES]

Black Canary, I just keep getting the feeling you and he are not done talking about this yet. I hope you will give yourself the opportunity to talk more with him.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by BlackCanary

@Sannah, he found this picture and invite to lunch very provoking, I/my 18-yr old self was proposing a serious boundary violation.
I know I was VERY nervous about sharing it, almost had to hide this from myself.

Once he figured out what the picture was (Google street view not in focus), a look of horror flashed across his face. He asked "Did you take this picture?" He also wanted to know what was the purpose of the lunch invite, what would "she" expect to happen?. I told him "Wait and see, that's was the whole point, create the opportunity for something to happen".

BlackCanary, I don't think I understand what you're saying about the picture. You have an 18 year old alter who created an invitation to your T to join her for lunch and then you showed your T the invitation, which included a photo of the proposed site for the lunch date (a restaurant?)? Why would your T be horrified by this? It doesn't seem so bad to me. It's not like either of you was going to act on this. And you were sharing with him that your 18 y.o. self wants to be closer to him, and wants him to step outside of the T role and meet with her in another context. None of this seems that unusual for a client. Many clients might have a little fantasy about meeting their T for lunch. It seems like you felt close and safe enough with your T to share your 18 y.o.'s desire with him. What seems unusual here, is your T's reaction to this. Why would he be horrified? Seems like an interesting impulse to explore together, and perhaps a chance to remind you of boundaries (more for your 18 y.o.'s sake). I think I am not really understanding what you told him... It just doesn't seem provoking or horrifying to me.

[fieldofdreams]

It didn't seem provocative or horrifying to me, either. I have alters who have been far more provocative than that, but my T has never reacted like yours did, BlackCanary. His reactions are puzzling me. I don't understand why he recommended a break, either, because this would definitely not be the time when my T would suggest a break. My T would maintain consistent and appropriate boundaries while encouraging me to talk about these issues. I'm sorry you're going through this... I really don't understand your T's current behavior at all.

[WePow]

(( BC )) It sounds like you know already what will be in your best interests.
You know that therapy has to be honesty. If you are not free to lay it all out on the line for the T to sort through, than it really is not a good use of therapy time / money.
It is hard to make changes because we know what we have even if it is not the best. But it is familiar. So we keep what we know if we are getting anything at all from it that we may need. You do need a T. But you know that you deserve the top choice cut of steak and not just a fast food burger. You have more respect for yourself now than you did at the start of therapy. Take what you have learned and go get yourself the quality of help you need. You deserve it.

[Sannah]

Canary, you wanted to provoke him. Was it a provocative picture?

[BlackCanary]

@Sannah - it was a picture of a building, from Google street view, not even sure if it was the right building since I've never been there. The provoking element - for both of us - was the idea of a boundary violation by meeting for lunch on a Saturday. Yes, I thought he would find it provoking, and it was scary to consider showing it to him for that reason (what if he had said YES??!! ).
At this point, I have no feedback from him that he really was provoked (beyond the look on his face) or that this item led him to re-evaluate his internal discomfort with the seating. Stay tuned: I may be completely off base, it may have been something else!

@Echoes - yeah, we are not done. We've did some good email on Friday. We will meet in early June to discuss.

@WePow - I think I am working thru to admitting that I'm ready to try someone new. I do know that I can meet with my T again, rebuild and continue OR go thru stuff and have a friendly termination. This never seemed possible before - tried a break in the fall, tried a break in the winter - was not comfortable.
1) I'm not panicky or distraught at the idea of terminating - it's OK now.
2) When he suggested a break, I did not have the usual rejection-related adrenaline rush.
Big Shift is this - 3) I recently had to select a child psychologist for my son - I did the interviews over the phone and made a selection. So, now I know how to do it for myself. Previously I asked my T to refer me to a woman T that he knew personally, and he did not know anyone with availability, and I could not imagine going to a stranger.
Also, I'm in a very consistent, stable situation at work right now so I can take a risk of changing something outside of work.
Metaphor: I don't really want to rebuild the bridge in the spot where it gets washed out every few months. I need to move to higher ground, maybe with a different construction co.

thanks all

[Sannah]

Canary, so did you do this lunch incident to regain some power?

[BlackCanary]

@Sannah - at the point in time when I showed him the pic of the clinic building and provided a date and time for lunch at Subway, I was trying to communicate about what I considered a risky behavior from my teen years.
It wasn't a situation to gain or re-gain power or lose power in the therapy relationship.

[Fartraveler]

sounds provocative to me in this way: a subtext is "I can track you down if I want. I can find you."

I mean, there are lots of ways you could have illustrated the things you actually did when you were 18. But what you actually did was to show him that you know where he is on Saturdays.

So, I think the provocative thing was maybe not the sexual thing, but the pseudo-stalking thing. (The stalking thing might also have been what upset him, if you were interpreting his expression correctly.)

-Far

[BlackCanary]

Originally Posted by Fartraveler

sounds provocative to me in this way: a subtext is "I can track you down if I want. I can find you."
-Far

It's a good observation, but in this case I'm not sure how this could have felt like stalking, since he told me that he works at this other place on Saturdays for extra money. I've asked him about one of the T's there, to see if he knew her and could recommend her for me.
I know where he lives and works; he knows where I live and work. We've looked at each other's houses on Google maps (he was having an addition put on! My old house was too small and loud neighbors were too close!). He has a listed phone number and has called me at home from his house when the center was closed due to snow.

The "flirtatious" element was there for me, as if I was 18. I really regret sharing it now. It felt reckless to make the invite, since my therapy would have been destroyed if he had said yes, let's meet.

I won't know for a week if that is what he noticed and reacted to. Stay tuned.