[sittingatwatersedge]

The therapy "journey" seems to be getting into some scary waters.

On one hand T is asking me to look more and more closely at a long list of abusive stuff in my early life & look closely at how these various things manifested in my behavior growing up

and I hear T say, this is abuse, you have a right to be angry about all this, you have always accepted the blame for yourself and you are still doing it.

Alice Miller is wayyyy too harsh for me - face facts, your parents never loved you, get over it. I imagine T proposing that to me and I shrink away.

on the other hand I find T commenting that my Mom must have been overwhelmed having 5 pregnancies over 14 yrs, how she had to struggle coping with bad stuff that went on in her own life, etc, and it seems that I'm not to be angry with her after all. But the anger is still in me and now I don't know what to do with it.
When I hear T defending her, it makes me feel as if T is on my mother's side (as my mother sided against me with teachers, neighbor kids' parents, any adult) and from there it is only a step or two to thinking that her patience and caring for me is just a facade, a mask that is going to fall off one day and I am going to be told just what an ungrateful, hateful child I was & still am. I don't need a therapist to tell me that, I do a good job of telling myself most days.

it feels like I'm being given two different stories here. I know, life is not black and white, and blah blah blah, but - If the anger is justifiable, but turning it into myself is distorted, yet it's not to be directed at the parents, then what?? Why am I not getting it? Arrrrgh!!!

[WePow]

((((( Sitting )))))

What you describe reminds me of how I felt when first telling my T about things my dad did to me... (which he agreed were very wrong)... but when I told T about how my mom would punish me for the things my dad did, and she would not protect me from him... well T had me talk about my mom and I heard from T how things must have looked from my mom's side. I also read some books T gave me that dealt with the topic of adult children of alchoholics. I finally "got" that my mom had her own set of issues and such. But that didn't excuse her for what she failed to do by protecting me. But the whole time I was getting into all this with my T, I also suddenly felt very angry with T and felt like my mom was being defended rather than me. Once again having someone take the side of the adult rather than the side of the wounded child. And it made me mad!

The only way I was able to work through this was to talk with T head-on about this stuff and my emotions. When I did that, I learned that he was not defending my mom at all, but trying to help give me a new adult way to see the entire situation. When I looked at it in that light, I suddenly felt a sense of sadness rather than anger. I could see as an adult how the things she said and did were influenced by her own deep wounds. They were NOT an excuse for her actions. Just insight into her actions.

Hope this helps maybe in some way.

[Verbascum]

I totally agree with WePow.
Nobody is an island. Everybody is damaged, influenced, hurt by someone or in some way; your parents too. Just like everybody elkse they tried to cope, but unluckily for you not in a good way. Understanding that shows you that blaming yourself for their behaviour is useless. That is the first part.

Second part is realising how it affected you, and allow yourself to feel it, and stop denying the feeling. That feeling may be anger.

I remember once after a session I was extremely sad. I was very scared to allow that feeling and thougt, if I start crying, I will be crying for weeks. But I was so overwhelmed that I took a day off, just for crying. I only cried for about half an hour or so. And then it was over, like things had fallen into place, and I was very relieved. But I had to allow it first.

[sittingatwatersedge]

repeat.... I know, life is not black and white, and blah blah blah, but - If the anger is justifiable, but turning it into myself is distorted, yet it's not to be directed at the parents, then what?? I just accept more blame, for having anger at all. wow and I pay money for this.

[mixedup_emotions]

Hmm....Seems confusing. My T wants me to feel the anger towards my parents....but he knows how resistant I am to feeling angry because I love my parents so much and they turned out to be wonderful in my adulthood (just not when I was a child)....T told me that I have to go through the anger first, and then I will go back to loving them BUT accepting them for their limitations....It seems as though you haven't been able to express your anger enough to get some relief and the limitations piece is entering the picture too soon?

Did your therapist actually tell you you cannot be angry at them?

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by roseleigh7

Did your therapist actually tell you you cannot be angry at them?

of course not in those words, but that's the message ya know, it's unmistakable.

I think MixedUpEmotions is on the right track (thanks MUE). Now I just beat myself up in guilt for inbility to forgive, until such time as I get to the point MUE is talking about., but at least I can hope for that time to come some day.

thanks all.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

Alice Miller is wayyyy too harsh for me - face facts, your parents never loved you, get over it.

I will take just this one piece and comment on it, because I have read a lot of Alice Miller's books, and although I agreed with a lot of it, I think she had a need to blame somebody, and got carried away with that, and to me she became less effective doing so.

And she is dead now.

Could you tell your therapist how you feel you're being pushed to get over the anger? You need time to process that feeling. It's a feeling that is very valid.

[SpottedOwl]

((((SAWE))))

For me what helped is the idea "love the sinner, hate the sin".

It is ok to be angry about what was done to you, but just hating the person does not solve anything. It is much like dealing with an alcoholic -- you know they are 'sick' and not always making good choices, but you still love them as a person and want them to get better.

Your parents may never 'get better', but those two ideas helped me the most when it came to the seeming contradiction of loving and being angry at the same time.

Most of all, be kind to yourself as you try to figure this all out.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by SpottedOwl

((((SAWE))))

For me what helped is the idea "love the sinner, hate the sin".

It is ok to be angry about what was done to you, but just hating the person does not solve anything. It is much like dealing with an alcoholic -- you know they are 'sick' and not always making good choices, but you still love them as a person and want them to get better.

Your parents may never 'get better', but those two ideas helped me the most when it came to the seeming contradiction of loving and being angry at the same time.

Most of all, be kind to yourself as you try to figure this all out.

Right now I love them and right now I hate what they did; both at the same time and there is no puzzle there; but I have accepted the blame for what they did and the anger is pointed at me and doesn't go away.
I wish I thought T was on my side but apparently she is headed toward makling me say the words. It's my fault. So wake up SAWE, they didn't love you and why should they - or anyone else.
Get over it.
Gee, and to think I am paying money for thsi. I just did it all by myself for free.
>>>>> end of thread folks. thanks to all.

[trueFaith]

I know exactly what you mean. I have been there. As soon as my T gave me the smallest hint about seeing my parents in a different way I got furious. I thought he said that I was the one to blame, that I was not at loving person because I blame my parents for hurting me. Yeah, I did because they were responsible for not meeting my needs. I was hypervigilant regarding this stuff and projected it out. I accused him for not being on my side.

My T wanted me to see that my parents behaviour had nothing to do with me, that they wasn’t able to be loving, caring and understanding because of their own problems, not because of me and wanted me to talk about my guilt. Now I know that my T always has been on my side. He has helped me to understand that my parent’s abuse and neglectful behaviour was not ok.

It is NOT your fault. Don’t think even for the slightest moment that this is your fault. And try not to hide your feelings and thoughts about this from your T. Tell him exactly what you have telling us. He is definitely on your side. And maybe you can ask him about his thought regarding forgiveness?

I have met a lot of people who said they have forgiven their parents but eventually it showed up to be a false forgiveness. Forgiveness is not a choice anyway. You can not just make a decision about forgiveness, you have to do the inner work and then maybe the forgiveness come to you as a result, not because of a conscious decision.

So don’t rush through this, take your time, blame your parents as long as you need to. That’s the only way to resolve the anger you have towards your self. This anger has to be directed towards your parents. And even if you never ever are capable to forgive your parents, you are not a bad person, just a person who has been severely hurt.

[sittingatwatersedge]

TF thank you for your gentle note (and all the rest of you). What would I do without you wonderful PC people. Your care comes into me like like rain on a dry piece of land.

Last year T and I had a discussion, about forgiveness (of anyone, in general), whether forgiveness is a choice.

She said it is, and not one that you make just once, but again and again. I said, no, that sounds to me like just stuffing your feelings, like all the other times, deciding to forgive. Even if your heart moves to forgiveness just a little at a time, once you truly reach it you don't have to try to find it again.

I guess we will see which of us is right. Hope so.

you folks are the best

[Perna]

I don't feel there are "sides". People, our parents/mothers included are just other people like us. You know how you feel now? Imagine you were your mother and had her life that she had at the age you are now?

My stepmother, for example, was fond of saying how, at 19, she was already a mother (telling me this at 19). Of course, I didn't appreciate it then, but I can now that I'm nearly 60 and can imagine what being a young mother at 19 was like, the difficulties and frustrations. I was lucky because my stepmother mellowed some as she got older and she would answer questions about her own growing up and what she felt and what it was like (a young aunt of hers living with her family use to borrow her clothes to go out partying and ruin favorite sweaters with cigarette burns, etc.).

Everyone has things that hurt or that they feel was abusive or unfair. That's what anger is "for", to let us know when we're hurt/have a problem, so we can fix it. Anger is NOT yelling at people or hitting, etc., that's a poor expression of anger. Anger is a feeling. I had a boss who humiliated me in front of a lot of people in a public area of the company. That made me angry! I decided on a course of action so I knew what I would do right then so I could limit the chances of such a thing happening again, what to say next time if it did and what boundary with consequences I would state/initiate/follow through on if it happened after that.

My stepmother was physically and emotionally abusive to me over time. Because I was a child and could not "leave" I had to figure out other ways of dealing with the abuse. Some of it I directed toward myself (If your mother doesn't like you, who does? You must be really "bad") and some of it I "retaliated" back to my stepmother, learning to be passive aggressive (my parents went out and my stepmother instructed me to take a bath before going to bed; I ran an inch of water in the tub, stepped into it (I'd been caught lying before because she checked the bottom of my feet :-) and got a bit damp and the towel damp, etc. but did not "bathe" by any stretch of the imagination or in any 3rd person agreed-upon manner

Eventually, when I became grown, relating to the rest of the world as if they were my stepmother (92.7% of my experience through age 20?) started to get me in trouble. A boss telling me to do something I don't want to do isn't going to like lying/passive aggressive behavior as a response? Thinking or feeling someone, anyone, telling me to do something is "like" my stepmother because that's the major experience I've had is not going to serve me well.

My stepmother should not have struck me or even threatened to strike me. Her expression of anger was a bad example for me (making me afraid of "anger," as you appear to be, Sitting). Her lack of proportion in both what angered her and her expression of anger (my room being messy, clothes not hung up elicited screaming and all the clothes ripped out of my dresser and closet and thrown in the middle of the floor; my brother had his all thrown out the second story window!) was neither a good experience for me nor good training for my future.

What I learned from my stepmother's anger was to be afraid of anger and yet I was angry and I internalized that anger and it built up. So now we had someone who was afraid of other people's too-bold expression of anger AND afraid of her own anger. I still have some trouble, if there's a problem with a business or repair, speaking to someone to straighten out the problem. I hate having to go into a bank or agency and fix an error of theirs because I'm afraid I'll kill the clerk

That's why you need to "remember" your anger at your mother's behavior toward you. You wanted or needed something and did not get it. You may have asked politely for it or it may have been a "given" like food or shelter or loving kindness and it was nowhere in sight!

My father married my stepmother three weeks after my fifth birthday. They'd met three or four months before and fallen in love; they remained in love throughout their marriage, I don't doubt that. I have three natural brothers and my stepmother suddenly had me and my brothers as "her" children. I was the first to call her "Mom". I remember when she re-instituted my naps. I hadn't been taking naps for about a year but she decided I had to take them again. I vividly remember standing on the stair and arguing that "my father said I didn't have to take them anymore". The first challenge I remember her reply and how it satisfied me; she explained that I didn't need to go to sleep, I just had to sit or lay on my bed quietly. I could look at books or play but it was a "down" time and that she might do the same. I had thought that one had to "sleep" when one napped/was in bed, didn't understand yet the nuances to being in bed and I didn't mind as long as I wasn't "forced" to do something against my will, change my consciousness and sleep. That is an example of my stepmother's "good" training.

From the same period though is an example of where we started to go wrong in our relationship. One of the first things my stepmother did was teach me to make my bed. She showed me how and then I was expected to make it on my own, the rest of my life, without fail :-) My T and I discussed this and T asked what I would have liked instead and I realized the "interaction" between the two of us (think Cinderella doing her chores with all the birds and animals helping and everyone singing together :-) was missing. There wasn't anything "personal" or "loving" in there, it was just a dry lesson and command to a 5 year old. There was no sense of "let me help you" or, "isn't this fun when we do it together?" There was no sense of mothering.

A lot of things seem unfair when growing up; how come when your parents call you you have to come right away, no matter what you're doing/engaged in but when you need them they get mad and say things like, "I'm ON the phone!" and constantly tell you not to interrupt and no they can't come there, you come here and bring whatever it is you want to show them, etc.

I was camping with my husband, stepson, daughter-in-law, 6 year old granddaughter, and 5 year old grandson a week ago and my grandson kept getting into "trouble" and his behavior irritated my husband. One thing he did was; the RV AC drips water off the awning and it makes a neat "pool", it's a large, constant drip. He was fascinated with this drip and I suggested piling up stones under it and making a "waterfall". He and his sister got into doing that but then grandson discovered fine, loose, dirt and started pouring that by handfuls over the piled rocks to "soak up" all the water, to try to be faster than the drip :-) Of course things got messy/muddy in there and his father told him one more handful of dirt and then stop. He did it one time too many. . .

I was trying to get my husband to remember how frustrating it has to be to be a child with one's own interests and projects and have someone else tell one to stop when one was in the "middle". But that's what growing up is about, trying to learn when to start, stop, pay attention to what's going on around us, etc., how to "control" ourselves. But it's gotta make us angry sometimes doesn't it? The terrible twos are about this and they don't really end, we just get better at self control. But sometimes there's a price to "controlling" anger instead of being able to think it through and use it for a better result "next" time. Eventually, hopefully, the child learns by being interrupted to "plan" so next time no one else has to say "that's too much".

So that's why I think it's a good idea to rethink the times you were angry with your mother and controlled them poorly and also think of how your mother had her own hard time going and didn't mean to make you angry, some of her stuff and poor training just spilled over onto you. If you think about it, you see there's a balance there that it would be good to be able to understand and achieve.

((((((((((((SAWE)))))))))))))))

I am reminded of something that happened at my last appt with T. I was telling him that sometimes when i tell him stories, I'm afraid he's going to take my husband's "side" (since they're both men!) and I said "you should ALWAYS be on my side". And T looked right in my eyes, deeply, and just said "You're right". It felt so powerful. Like...T really WILL be on my side. I soooooo get that need.

T hasn't dared to broach the subject of forgiving my parents. I think there was one time that he was pointing out that a lot of my mom's behavior probably had to do with her alcoholism, but that was it. Sometimes, I can feel myself coming to my own little insights...they were very young, they were addicts, they had their own life experiences to deal with. i just have a *glimmer* of that, but I'm just not ready to go there yet. *I* had my children young, *I* went to AA, *I* am dealing with my life experiences through therapy, not by pushing them onto my children. Huh. I guess I'm not quite at the "forgiveness" yet.

I think there is probably a time for everything, and maybe this isn't the time for that for you (or for me). Try to hold on to this: even if they had "reasons" for behaving as they did (blah, whatever), that certainly does not mean YOU are at fault in any way. Whatever their life experiences, they are responsible for their behavior. And it is your right to heal at your own pace and in a way that is right for *you*.

Talk, talk, talk about this with T. Some of my most empowering moments in therapy have been times when I've disagreed with T and I've found the strength inside to argue my own viewpoint. You have that strength, sawe....I've seen it here on PC.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by treehouse

Talk, talk, talk about this with T.

T and I have agreed to read and discuss Pete Walker's book "The Tao of Fully Feeling") and it seems a good place in our work to do it, all about (appropriate vs self) blame and (real vs false) forgiveness. scary stuff for me but I know this is where we need to be. Thanks so much