[sittingatwatersedge]

Dear folks,

There may be many on PC whose issues go back to preverbal days (I am one of them)

I was reading last night about the importance of eye contact between the infant and his/her "primary caregiver" - how long, intense mutual gazes are rather unique to that relationship stage and are very important for establishing safety/security/bonding

the author observed that between adults, eye contact is either broken off after a second or a few seconds, or is longer when one is angry or presenting a threat.

the question - apart from ccasions of anger, have any of you purposely tried to hold prolonged eye contact with T(and especilaly, more than once)? If so would you be willing to share your experience(s)? I am wondering whether I might find some healing in it.

[Perna]

T usually looked at me when speaking to me; it's communications as one who is speaking can gauge how well someone is hearing/understanding? So, knowing T looks at me and trusting that it's a "good" thing, I practiced looking at her, especially when she or I spoke to let her know I was listening/heard and to experience her listening to me better. I found it very helpful for our connection and for my feeling heard and understood and for practice with understanding how others understand me or me, them.

My favorite looking though is when it looked like T did not "believe" what I was saying and I really wanted her to (when I'd promised something or asserted a belief of mine, NOT when I was telling my story, there was no look of disbelief at that time) so I would do like all the textbooks say and deliberately look her in the eyes and look my most honest and upstanding, LOL. Because it was a "unique" situation, whatever I was asserting would "stick" with me so I'd have to back it up with behavior from then on; it would be like a promise I'd made and because the situation was different from usual, it was very helpful to me, moving me forward.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Let me clarify.

Not eye contact while one or ther other is speaking.

I am asking about deliberate eye contact while neither is speaking, and for a prolonged period. Not for one second, three, five seconds; say 20-30 seconds or even longer.
An extended ,silent, mutual gaze, such as a mother and newborn might exchange.

I have seen my sister in law do this with her babies; it was very moving even to me, a bystander.

[Elana05]

Hi sawe,

Eye-contact is a big issue for me. I have been conscious of trying to hold eye contact with my (old) T for more than a few seconds in order to challenge myself. (I usually look off to the left or right or at the floor).

Holding a gaze (without speaking) sounds like it would be hard, but very theraputic. I can definately see your point. If you and T do agree to try it I hope you'll post back.

E

[alcira]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

I am asking about deliberate eye contact while neither is speaking, and for a prolonged period. Not for one second, three, five seconds; say 20-30 seconds or even longer.

Sometimes (on the rare occasions when neither of us is speaking) I would do that. I actually like doing it, I am not sure why. Perhaps it makes me feel connected. But she would eventually avert her gaze and look down at her notes and wait for me to speak. I think most people find having someone looking them in the eyes for a long period of time uncomfortable.

[WikidPissah]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

Let me clarify.

Not eye contact while one or ther other is speaking.

I am asking about deliberate eye contact while neither is speaking, and for a prolonged period. Not for one second, three, five seconds; say 20-30 seconds or even longer.
An extended ,silent, mutual gaze, such as a mother and newborn might exchange.

I have seen my sister in law do this with her babies; it was very moving even to me, a bystander.

wow. I did/still do that with my children...even though they are now in their very early 20's. I realized, recently, that they are the only ones I can hold eye contact with. The thought of looking my T in the eyes, even just to make a point, is terrifying to me. I too would love to hear how this feels.

[peaches100]

I would like to try it, and i'm guessing it would be very moving. But i'm too scared. I think the vulnerability of it is what's scary to me.

[sunrise]

Yes, my T and I do it sometimes. I like your way of describing it, SAWE. Better than thinking of it as a staredown, LOL. But sometimes it can go on a long time, and I have been reminded of that childhood game where you looked in the other kid's eyes and the "loser" would be the one who looked away first.

I actually like when T and I hold each other's gaze for a longish period. I feel like it's a bit of an invitation from him to me, "Hey, be here with me. Now! I am here." Like step up to the plate with me. It makes me feel good. Not alone.

I am very sensitive to the whole looking in each other's eyes thing because my ex-husband was terrible at this. I noticed it the moment I met him. He didn't look at me when I spoke, but off to one side or behind me. It was very unnerving to have someone refuse to look at you look that. It made me feel "not there" for him or beneath his notice or not worthy of his attention or something. And like he could not be trusted (that turned out to be true) because he was so shifty-eyed. After years of living with him, I developed the same habit, because it felt so rejecting to never have one's gaze met, so I started not looking at him too, to avoid the constant rejection. In therapy, I am specifically trying to break that bad habit. I really want to look in T's eyes. I don't want to have become one of those people like my XH (very triggering) who won't meet people's gaze.

So, yes, this whole thing is BIG for me in therapy.

BTW, the thing with the mother's and baby's gaze--I read an article not too long ago that said this is more frequent (although not exclusive) behavior between mother and female babies. Male babies tend not to hold the gaze as long but look all over the room, etc.

[dustintochampagne]

i can think of a couple times of this happening (although i am in general horrible at giving eye contact with T's), with an old (but one of my favorite) T's, and it was the couple of times that were almost the most intense moments.... in a good way. i felt seen. visible. i felt like she knew. and understood. it was hard to push myself to do it in some ways, but so worthwhile that it outweighed my fear of being vulnerable in the long run.

Yes, I have done this with T quite a bit.
I didn't really realize what it was until you posted this, SAWE, so thank you. I think what you read is right on.

It is difficult for me sometimes to look at T for so long... I feel scared and vulnerable. But it can also be very soothing just knowing that she is there to take care of me and hold me (not physically) and my feelings.
Sometimes though I ask her to look away.. like if I move from sitting on the couch to sitting on the floor. But I make quite a bit of eye contact with her when I want to feel connected... or if I already am feeling connected or scared or missing her...

She will never look away until I do first which is nice because I don't feel like she is getting bored of me. She is still there.

Lots of feelings coming up for me just typing this. Big scary feelings that I feel too little to deal with.. I miss T.

Thank you for posting this thread.

[WePow]

There have been times - usually after very hard sessions - when T will catch my eyes (I tend to look all over the place a lot). When that happens, I am so emotionally drained and feel so alone... on such a deep level... on that pre-verbal level. Somehow it is like my T is scooping me up with his eyes and just holding me in a safe way. It is almost like he is giving me what my father could not give me in a healthy way. When that happens, I feel so afraid that he will drop me... wow - flashback just happened - Dad did that to me a lot - the dropping me and catching me - the game parents play with kids I guess. Wow. ugggs...

Well, it feels like he holds me without dropping me and it lasts for several seconds... sometimes maybe a whole min. Maybe not. But it feels different inside. It is like he holds the gaze until I somehow know I am safe and then he releases it. It always makes me smile. I feel like T loves me without saying a word. That it is safe and he is not going to harm me.

Originally Posted by WePow

There have been times - usually after very hard sessions - when T will catch my eyes (I tend to look all over the place a lot). When that happens, I am so emotionally drained and feel so alone... on such a deep level... on that pre-verbal level. Somehow it is like my T is scooping me up with his eyes and just holding me in a safe way. It is almost like he is giving me what my father could not give me in a healthy way. When that happens, I feel so afraid that he will drop me... wow - flashback just happened - Dad did that to me a lot - the dropping me and catching me - the game parents play with kids I guess. Wow. ugggs...

Well, it feels like he holds me without dropping me and it lasts for several seconds... sometimes maybe a whole min. Maybe not. But it feels different inside. It is like he holds the gaze until I somehow know I am safe and then he releases it. It always makes me smile. I feel like T loves me without saying a word. That it is safe and he is not going to harm me.

Yes. yes. yes.

[rainbow8]

I wish I could have the experiences that some of you are writing about. I'm not very good at eye contact with anyone, though I tried hard with my last T. With this T, I'm afraid to look at her. I get most of the "work" done with my eyes closed. When she holds my hand, I try to look at her but it's very difficult. I'm afraid of what I would feel; it might be like her tapping on my knees. It's just scary for me.

Yes, I do this with T.

I always look away first...which makes me feel like he is willing and able to be there for me for as long as I need him to.

I feel like I am searching for something...the fact that he's there, that I can trust him, that he's real, that he will let me in.

Sometimes, like in my most recent session, I will say something that will make T teary-eyed, and I will look into his eyes for a long time, because I want to understand it - the willingness to feel so much, to be so honest, to not be afraid.

Looking deep into T's eyes has meant a lot of different things at different times. It's scary and healing. It seems like a lot of things that are healing are scary.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by treehouse

It seems like a lot of things that are healing are scary.

you are so right!!!!!

Pocket riders are invited.... I am to see T tonight after a break of 4 weeks.... have been checking my cell waiting for her to cancel me (hoping she will cancel me?) ...... have resisted the idea of making a list....... thinking about asking if I may take her two hands, and look into her eyes, and see if I am able to open far enough to do what some of you recommend, accept T's love, and which some of you say isn't love anyway.....

there seems to be a change in the wind. Whether it's referral, or termination, or descent to the unconscious' next level down, or finding a new connection with T on a higher level, I don't know....

... scared.

[kitten16]

Great great great topic.

My T is fab with eye contact. I was having some problems with him initially, so I stopped seeing him and tried another therapist in the interim. It just didn't work with the new guy. I narrowed it down to his body language -- he was really energetic, shifted a lot, and always looked like he wanted to dash off to go mountain hiking or something. (Oh -- and he never read my intake form that I slaved over! I could tell, because he kept asking me basic questions that he would have known, if he'd bothered to read my file. Dumba$$!)

And -- now that you mention it, his eye contact wasn't as good as the first T. So I went back to him.

The eye contact thing is SO important. Mine only breaks contact when he has to check the time. I still hate it though I wish there was some other way of figuring out when the session ends!

[kitten16]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I wish I could have the experiences that some of you are writing about. I'm not very good at eye contact with anyone, though I tried hard with my last T. With this T, I'm afraid to look at her. I get most of the "work" done with my eyes closed. When she holds my hand, I try to look at her but it's very difficult. I'm afraid of what I would feel; it might be like her tapping on my knees. It's just scary for me.

Tapping on your knees...that is a great image.

[PreacherHeckler]

I had no problem doing the mutual gaze thing with my kids when they were infants -- it just felt natural to me and I didn't think about it. And I can generally maintain eye contact with my T when we're talking, unless I feel embarrassed or ashamed... but to just look into his eyes in silence? Uh-uh. No way! That would either make me flip out or laugh at him.

[suzzie]

gosh, sunrise, I am like your husband. I wont look people in the eye. I do it so bad, I can go all day and not realize I wasnt looking at anyone. Mine is based on fear of some sort. Just freaks me right out. I know its rude and offensive to do and that bothers me, but I just cant. Im glad your trying to break this habit. It sounds like the rewards are amazing.

[sittingatwatersedge]

yesterday when I saw T I brought up the eye contact thing again. Do you remember me asking you about this a couple of wks ago, T? She sure did.
I could not look at her at all as I said, well on that day when I asked you about it, it was impossible for me to look you in the eye but I managed to bring it up, and to get my question out about maybe you and I could try that some time. And then I got up and walked over to that corner of the room and stood there.
She said, what? I don't remember you getting up.
Well, I didn't really. But I very clearly remember doing it.
she didn't say a word.

I told her, it may be a while before we can try this. I'll lhave to let you know. And she said some very gentle and supportive things, but I cannot remember even one of them.

The thought of being "seen" can be really scary.

[sittingatwatersedge]

I was about to say, I wonder what would happen if we tried it - but I cannot even go there, I can't even type it out without a bump.
Yesterday I took the BIG SATCHEL and hid behind it the whole time. oh well

[alcira]

I had this strange experience with my T recently. We were talking about something and I think she wanted to make sure that I heard her because after she repeated what she was saying a couple of times, she leaned forward and looked at me in the eyes. It was the most intense look I've ever experienced and I think she repeated what she was saying again but she kept looking at me with the same intensity. It was almost as if she was looking inside me to make sure I had processed the words but all I remember was her eyes. It was a moment that I felt both fear and deep connection at the same time. I wonder if that is something therapists are taught to do. She's never done this before.

[Popskid]

I guess the short version would be that holding a gaze for a minute or so was our way of mutually expressing how important whatever we had been talking about was. Examples would be times when he thought I needed to go to a hospital or when we talked about me ending a relationship I had been in for 8 years.

I did feel "held" when he looked at me like that. It conveyed to me not only that he was going to be there for me, but also that he truly wanted what was best for me. It is odd now that you mention it I can clearly remember every time that it happened.